WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

[The_Jackal]

As of currently, Shadow is much better than Affliction on a numbers basis, but a patch just went out (or is going out) that is buffing Afflic and nerfing Shadow.

Also, there are some DoT melee classes. I think it's Assassination for Rogues and Unholy for DKs, though I don't know how prominently DoTs appear in their rotations currently.

If I were you, I'd go affliction. Shadow priest is great DPS, but has a limited toolkit for solo play, whereas warlocks get pets, which make solo play a lot less fraught.

[Ionbound]

So...I'm getting into WoW again as a Draeni resto-Shaman. Anyone have suggestions on how to make levelling less...Cancer?

[Requizen]

Figure out what you enjoy doing and do that. You can level in a variety of ways - the quickest way to level is to get heirlooms and quest while queuing for dungeons. As a healer, your dungeon queues should pop near instantly and you can make sure the group doesn't die as long as you're paying attention.

On the other hand, there's plenty of ways to level. If you like questing, it's quick enough. If you like PvP, you can level that way (though it's a bit slow comparatively).

[Delusion]

You also get a level 100 boost if you buy legion.

Question: I like DoT. I REALLY like DoT.

As far as I know, Affliction Warlocks and Shadow Priests are the DoT specs of WoW.

Is one particularly better over the other?

From reading around different forums: Shadow Priest are stronger on raids at least. However unless you are doing super hardcore content both should be okay.

On the other hand Shadow Priests have only 2 DoTs now AFAIK and are more about correct usage of Voidform while Affliction is all about DoTs. (I am probably going to use my lvl 100 boost on Aflliction at somepoint at least when I figure if I want horde alt or not).

[TechnOkami]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

DoT is often good at non-grouped multi-target, and at fights with high levels of forced mobility, since they can keep damage going even when not actively casting.

Basically, both get the job done.

[Requizen]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

For dungeons/raids, it often doesn't matter since dps is dps. However, there's pluses and minuses to both. DoT classes have a bit more trouble switching targets, but are better when they have to move, since something like Arcane has to stand still and cast for the most part while DoTs keep ticking while you run around.

For PvP, it depends. In BGs, where it's hectic and you get 1v1s or picks, DoTs are great. In certain Arena comps, DoTs can work really well too, though others prefer spike damage to blast through healing. If you like BGs, Affliction is hilarious since you just throw down DoTs and run away while you get healed and things die.

[TechnOkami]

Ao pick what's fun, got it.

Thanks Djinn.

Also, not that I'll ever get to play with you guys because of the dichotomy of our respective gaming hours, but what realm are you, Jackson, and TFT all playing on again?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Ao pick what's fun, got it.

Thanks Djinn.

Also, not that I'll ever get to play with you guys because of the dichotomy of our respective gaming hours, but what realm are you, Jackson, and TFT all playing on again?

Sargeras.

[The_Jackal]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

Apart from stylistic preferences, the only answer I think can rationally answer is fights with multiple long-lived targets. A skilled DOT player who can maintain DOT stacks on 2-3 targets will shine in fights where you've got a couple of targets which, for mechanical reasons, can't be grouped together for easy cleave. So, fights like Twin Emperors in AQ, or Twin Ogron in Highmaul, or Four Horsemen in Naxx.

[Icewraith]

A new question: is there any reason you would want a DoT heavy class over something that deals more spike/burst damage? Like, when it comes to Raiding, Dungeons and PvP, would it be better to have a class with a lot of DoT (Aff'lock, SP, hell, Feral Druid) vs one with high DPS (Arcane Mage)? Do both get the same job done but in different ways?

When it comes to raiding in general, no. There'll usually be a fight where classes with strong AOE shine, and a fight with dangerous adds that need to be burned down quickly, and a fight with longer lived adds or multiple bosses that DoT classes can do the multidot thing on. In a given fight, yes, there will be more or less advantageous classes.

Edit: Any word on how bad the Protection Warrior Rage nerf is working out in practice? I'm worried.

[Ionbound]

Is SP worth playing? The artifact looks really cool but if everyone just yells at me to go holy, then...I don't want to have to deal with that.

[Icewraith]

Is SP worth playing? The artifact looks really cool but if everyone just yells at me to go holy, then...I don't want to have to deal with that.

Do you mean Disc? SP and Holy aren't exactly in the same line of work.

Regarding Disc, I healed a 5-man on an alt for the first time in the new disc and it went fine. Not exactly endgame relevant if that's what you're asking about, but it's usable in 5 man content and is almost as durable as a tank spec while questing. It kills things slower, unfortunately, and the only real form of AoE you get is from talents and multi-dotting SW:P, but like I said- durable.

[Ionbound]

No I mean SP. I have been lead (possibly erroneously) that when priest shows up in the DPS slot people are less than happy.

[Requizen]

No I mean SP. I have been lead (possibly erroneously) that when priest shows up in the DPS slot people are less than happy.

Not for like 4 expansions.

[GungHo]

No I mean SP. I have been lead (possibly erroneously) that when priest shows up in the DPS slot people are less than happy.

There are some people that will never be happy no matter what you do. Just do what's fun for you.

[Psyren]

Not for like 4 expansions.

This, and especially not now.

There are some people that will never be happy no matter what you do. Just do what's fun for you.

Definitely this.

Do you mean Disc? SP and Holy aren't exactly in the same line of work.

Regarding Disc, I healed a 5-man on an alt for the first time in the new disc and it went fine. Not exactly endgame relevant if that's what you're asking about, but it's usable in 5 man content and is almost as durable as a tank spec while questing. It kills things slower, unfortunately, and the only real form of AoE you get is from talents and multi-dotting SW:P, but like I said- durable.

The difficulty with Disc isn't really its healing output, rather it's how proactive you have to be now. You have to know the fight in advance and when the damage spikes are coming so that you can bubble/suppress the tank.

I can see it being viable once people know the fights. It's not a spec that's for the faint of heart and definitely not one that is conducive to learning content, because it has so little ability to react compared to Holy. But once people start learning content (and breaking even with or overgearing it) a Disc healer's output is going to be valuable.

[Icewraith]

So, Prot Warrior Rage nerf fears mostly confirmed. I'm driving the same car, but now it feels perpetually out of gas.

There were a few scary moments where I was at 25% HP, all my cooldowns blown, the boss is still meleeing me regularly, and I just can't get enough rage to throw up an Ignore Pain, Shield Slam won't reset, when it finally comes off cooldown it doesn't crit and I have to burn the rage it generates just to keep shield block up... I felt like I had to apologize to my healers. Of course when I finally can throw up IP, it's at the minimum rage level and doesn't last very long at all.

Also, my AOE threat is crap compared to our DH tank, which is not something I'm used to at all. This kind of feels like the bad old days in BC when I was learning to tank.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So, Prot Warrior Rage nerf fears mostly confirmed. I'm driving the same car, but now it feels perpetually out of gas.

And yet it's still the top performing tank at every skill level and every difficulty for Emerald Nightmare.

It's almost like they nerfed it in the worst possible way: giving you less control over your own Rage generation while still keeping the insanity that is Ignore Pain and it's ability to pool and stack hugely, and generate Rage off premitigation damage.

[The Glyphstone]

And yet it's still the top performing tank at every skill level and every difficulty for Emerald Nightmare.

It's almost like they nerfed it in the worst possible way: giving you less control over your own Rage generation while still keeping the insanity that is Ignore Pain and it's ability to pool and stack hugely, and generate Rage off premitigation damage.

Didn't the nerfs go in yesterday? That's not nearly enough data to form a reliable sample pool to see how it performs compared to pre-nerf.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Didn't the nerfs go in yesterday? That's not nearly enough data to form a reliable sample pool to see how it performs compared to pre-nerf.

Was it today? I thought it was yesterday -- before last-night's Raid information. That's still over 9,000 warrior samples on Normal difficulty alone, and 6k samples for any non-Monk tank.

[Psyren]

Was it today? I thought it was yesterday -- before last-night's Raid information. That's still over 9,000 warrior samples on Normal difficulty alone, and 6k samples for any non-Monk tank.

Poor Monks. But I dropped mine, they're a nightmare to heal and I keep feeling like I'm letting people down.

[The Glyphstone]

I guess, but I'd still prefer to be balancing equal data samples. 36,000 warrior samples were logged in the last week, with 26-30,000 each of the other non-Monk tanks. Since yesterday, 9,000 warriors and 6000-7000 of each non-Warrior non-Monks were logged, roughly 25% as many. And while I'm uncertain how the scoring is determined, Warriors appear to have gotten better despite this 'nerf' (92-93 over a week, 100 over a day), possible due to that lower sample size.

[Icewraith]

I guess, but I'd still prefer to be balancing equal data samples. 36,000 warrior samples were logged in the last week, with 26-30,000 each of the other non-Monk tanks. Since yesterday, 9,000 warriors and 6000-7000 of each non-Warrior non-Monks were logged, roughly 25% as many. And while I'm uncertain how the scoring is determined, Warriors appear to have gotten better despite this 'nerf' (92-93 over a week, 100 over a day), possible due to that lower sample size.

Well people also came into this week with whatever raid gear they got last week.

Edit: Also, the harder Warriors are getting hit, the less the rage nerfs matter. The biggest effect this has is in 5-man and open world questing, and on the initial pull.

The problems are RFDT and Ignore Pain. The nerfs were to Vengeance (which does hurt our efficiency with Rage) and our rotation-based Rage generation. People probably stopped using Focused Rage unless they were at very high levels of rage and just used free crit procs otherwise.

So, the nerfs were done in the worst possible way- hits the wrong people disproportionately (people doing non-raid content or of lower skill are affected the most), doesn't solve most of the problem it was intended to address (Prot is apparently still OP), and still screws up the feel of the class.

Also note I didn't say I died a bunch, I just had a number of hairy moments. However, because Rage was more scarce I was also paying a lot more attention to my rage usage and making sure I didn't waste a single IP or Vengeance proc. Probably the biggest difference this week is that I was a lot lower on the damage meter than I was last week, rank-wise. I don't remember what the healing meters looked like. I used Focused Rage less, so I didn't have as much damage, and people mostly got buffed.

Double Edit:

Also, I got to the Statecraft questline everyone was complaining about. I think I died once doing the actual quests, but I also had some warning (I've gotten world quests there twice and died once each time as well). I used the engineering glider trick to get over to the quest NPC, but today I discovered an alternate route I could have used to get there without the glider (there's a building across from the NPC

Spoiler: Spoiler

Show

whose son you rescue

with a lower entrance on the river, you'll still need to kill or CC the one elite sentry down there but it's remote enough you don't get adds or patrols). However, I think I still used the rocket boost belt module to zip past the last guards and stairway sentry.

For tank specs at least, if you go to Highmountain and steal a sack of Mammoth Milk from one of the ettins near Thunder Totem, you'll have the self-healing necessary to take on a pack of accidentally pulled elites and eventually.... EVENTUALLY kill them all.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well people also came into this week with whatever raid gear they got last week.

Edit: Also, the harder Warriors are getting hit, the less the rage nerfs matter. The biggest effect this has is in 5-man and open world questing, and on the initial pull.

The problems are RFDT and Ignore Pain. The nerfs were to Vengeance (which does hurt our efficiency with Rage) and our rotation-based Rage generation. People probably stopped using Focused Rage unless they were at very high levels of rage and just used free crit procs otherwise.

So, the nerfs were done in the worst possible way- hits the wrong people disproportionately (people doing non-raid content or of lower skill are affected the most), doesn't solve most of the problem it was intended to address (Prot is apparently still OP), and still screws up the feel of the class.

Exactly.

I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to just smooth out Rage generation with something like this (numbers rough placeholders):

Remove Rage from Damage Taken
Devastate generates 3 Rage.
Shield Slam generates 12 Rage.
Revenge generates 10 Rage, and increases the Rage generation of your next Shield Slam by 5 rage (stacking up to three times).
Impending Victory becomes a standard spell. 30 second cooldown, 0 rage cost. Deals damage, generates 25 rage, and heals for 10% of maximum health.
Ignore Pain still stacks, but retains only 30% of the previous stack's damage value, up to double Ignore Pain's normal value.

You now have a stronger opener (first Impending Victory, before you've taken damage), care more about Revenge instead of fishing for Shield Slam resets all the time, have more Rage when not taking damage, and have more control over your Rage flow. Devastate no longer feels like a COMPLETE waste.

Ignore Pain is still very strong, and stacking it is still valuable, but it's no longer the enormous off-tank buffer and Rage Generator it used to be.

Obviously numbers and exact tuning are complete guesses, but I think something like this might really smooth out Warriors while addressing the issues that make them insane in the right circumstances.

[Icewraith]

Exactly.

I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to just smooth out Rage generation with something like this (numbers rough placeholders):

Remove Rage from Damage Taken
Devastate generates 3 Rage.
Shield Slam generates 12 Rage.
Revenge generates 10 Rage, and increases the Rage generation of your next Shield Slam by 5 rage (stacking up to three times).
Impending Victory becomes a standard spell. 30 second cooldown, 0 rage cost. Deals damage, generates 25 rage, and heals for 10% of maximum health.
Ignore Pain still stacks, but retains only 30% of the previous stack's damage value, up to double Ignore Pain's normal value.

You now have a stronger opener (first Impending Victory, before you've taken damage), care more about Revenge instead of fishing for Shield Slam resets all the time, have more Rage when not taking damage, and have more control over your Rage flow. Devastate no longer feels like a COMPLETE waste.

Ignore Pain is still very strong, and stacking it is still valuable, but it's no longer the enormous off-tank buffer and Rage Generator it used to be.

Obviously numbers and exact tuning are complete guesses, but I think something like this might really smooth out Warriors while addressing the issues that make them insane in the right circumstances.

Worries about an opener could also be reduced by putting Intercept back to 20 Rage- Intercept+SS (=35) was good for a Shield Block (-10) and an Ignore Pain (min -20) on the pull, now we need an extra 10 rage from somewhere or do cheesy things like intercepting the other tank pre-pull for the other 10 rage necessary to get to 30.

IV seems a little too good as a heal that generates rage, I wouldn't mind it costing rage- I also wouldn't mind it being off the GCD but sharing a CD with Focused Rage along with some kind of Rage cost. Killing an appropriate opponent would still remove the rage cost and not cause FR to go on CD.

[TechnOkami]

Blizzard should sub to this thread sometime.

[Icewraith]

Blizzard should sub to this thread sometime.

Blizzard should at least realize that Warriors like to build and spend Rage. I'd be perfectly happy with a less powerful IP (maybe same effect but less efficient at converting Rage to Shield) if I had more control over my rage generation and more rage to use on IP/FR/SB.

[Antonok]

So Exorsus, a russian EU guild, has just cleared 7/7 Mythic EN, in less than 24 hours.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Blizzard should at least realize that Warriors like to build and spend Rage. I'd be perfectly happy with a less powerful IP (maybe same effect but less efficient at converting Rage to Shield) if I had more control over my rage generation and more rage to use on IP/FR/SB.

I'd have to agree. The roundabout method of nerfing rage generation so people use Ignore Pain less is kind of dumb when they could have just nerfed Ignore Pain itself. It's a strong ability, no denying it. 90% reduction is preeeetty good. A number lower than that might still work.