The Oracle's upcoming resurrection

[Mikenno]

Just a quick thing I registered for:

The Oracle is scheduled for a March 26, 1187 resurrection (#571), which presumably can't happen if the world is destroyed. So, until then, at least, the Stick-Verse is safe.

[Seto]

We must keep in mind that the Oracle's powers/knowledge depend upon Tiamat's own predictive knowledge, which presumably doesn't extend to actions taken by creatures equally or more powerful than her (including a decision by her fellow gods to destroy the world, or the Snarl, who, as shown here, can escape divine notice and foresight).

[Mikenno]

Good point. Also, I just found a date (#598) which says that 1187 is between 2 and 3 years away from current in strip time (because of the whole "Belkar will die within a year" thing, no more than a year could have passed, and the several month time skip was before this strip).

[ti'esar]

We must keep in mind that the Oracle's powers/knowledge depend upon Tiamat's own predictive knowledge, which presumably doesn't extend to actions taken by creatures equally or more powerful than her (including a decision by her fellow gods to destroy the world, or the Snarl, who, as shown here, can escape divine notice and foresight).

I don't know about this. While the Oracle's powers may technically come from Tiamat, he's been indicated by the Giant to be a reliable source of story information, and not just somebody whose knowledge comes from potentially fallible in-universe sources.

(That said, if you're looking for reasons to believe the story won't end with the world being destroyed, I'd rely more on the overall tone and the Giant's comments than on a one-shot gag).

[Darth Paul]

And if you're really relying on the Oracle for anti-world-being-destroyed insurance, remember that he gave Elan a prediction that the story would have a happy ending. I can't picture any circumstances where Elan is happy with the world being destroyed, in any way, shape, or form.

[Porthos]

We must keep in mind that the Oracle's powers/knowledge depend upon Tiamat's own predictive knowledge, which presumably doesn't extend to actions taken by creatures equally or more powerful than her (including a decision by her fellow gods to destroy the world, or the Snarl, who, as shown here, can escape divine notice and foresight).

The Oracle also has access to future books.
I feel I have to remind people of this EVERYTIME this supposed restriction comes up.

Also also, Goblin Dan.
Ditto.

And, as mentioned above, "Happy Ending".

======

Can one find fault with any one particular thing? I suppose so. But Rich has gone out of his way to sign-post that the world does in fact not end.

And for those who would complain that this undercuts the story? Well Rich has pointed out that this comic is not called Saving the World, or even Defeat the Mad Lich (my addition). No, it is called The Order of the Stick and that's because it is ultimately the story of what happens to these characters which is important, not the whole 'saving the world' plot.

So knowing that the world is saved at the end doesn't truly matter because we don't know HOW it will be saved nor how the cast will be affected during the saving.

[Seto]

Oh, yeah, I absolutely don't believe that the world will end. I just wanted to point out that the Oracle argument is not be-all-end-all.

[martianmister]

Or, world is going to end, but many people (including Elan, Oracle and Goblin Dan) will escape into the world within the rifts.

[Squark]

Or, world is going to end, but many people (including Elan, Oracle and Goblin Dan) will escape into the world within the rifts.

Excessive darkness of that possibility aside, the world in the rifts appears to be lifeless given Lauren's readings.

[Jasdoif]

Excessive darkness of that possibility aside, the world in the rifts appears to be lifeless given Lauren's readings.

Surely you're not expecting Laurin to detect Elan, the Oracle or Goblin Dan on the other side of the rift before they're on the other side of the rift?

[goodpeople25]

Well when it comes to worlds in rifts I would never rule out time shenanigans that would allow that, but that dosen't seem to be the case here I admit.

[NerdyKris]

I think meta knowledge of the type of story this is by the readers tells us that the story isn't going to end with the world ending.

But the fact that he has forewarning of an event two years in the future is pretty good proof, unless you assume that Tiamat can't predict actions by Hel. But that theory is defeated by Odin predicting Durkon's return to the dwarven homelands. So in the grand scheme of prophecies, Roy should be very much aware that he is going to succeed, given that he heard a prophecy that takes place well past the point where the gods would destroy the world.

[snowblizz]

Or, world is going to end, but many people (including Elan, Oracle and Goblin Dan) will escape into the world within the rifts.

The one with the Snarl poking out of? That world? Yea that'll have a happy ending...


Whether any Gods predictions can be reliable past the potential end of reality is sorta up in the air. I think there's scope for divine prediction have hard blocks on such divine intervention. Seems in part what RC is suffering from vis a vis not being able to get diviniation on the last Gate even.

Not that I personally feel the world will end, not really, and not in any world travel shenanigans either. But it's not based on the Oracle's future scheduel or Goblin Dan.

[Darth Paul]

So knowing that the world is saved at the end doesn't truly matter because we don't know HOW it will be saved nor how the cast will be affected during the saving.

But because the series IS titled "Order of the Stick", we do at least have a pretty good idea of who will do the saving.

[GreatWyrmGold]

We must keep in mind that the Oracle's powers/knowledge depend upon Tiamat's own predictive knowledge, which presumably doesn't extend to actions taken by creatures equally or more powerful than her (including a decision by her fellow gods to destroy the world, or the Snarl, who, as shown here, can escape divine notice and foresight).

The Snarl wasn't responsible for any of the actions which lead up to the current vote. Its presence was, but its presence has been affecting the world for centuries, and even issues directly related to the Snarl's presence (e.g, about the Gates) seem to be as accurate as any prophecies. There's no reason to suggest that Snarl influence blocks prophecies, and even less to suggest divine influence would. (After all, gods act in the world all the time, sometimes more directly than others, sometimes abiding by the rules less than others.)
But let's say that this whole kerfuffle is, indeed, something that Tiamat can't predict the result of. That would lead to all sorts of unpredictable results, even if the world doesn't end. If nothing else, tension between the gods who disagreed on the vote (and possibly high-ranking clergy of said gods). It's also possible that there would be internal tensions within individual churches (depending on how far down knowledge of the Godsmoots go). This would have serious effects on the mortal realm; even if the churches of Tyr and Thor don't know why their gods are pissed at each other all of a sudden, or the laity don't understand why the high priest of Baldr is loudly praying about how He needs to stop just following Odin and Thor, the effects of these religious conflicts will have impacts on the world. At the very least, their most devoted faithful (like their higher-level divine spellcasters and non-casting priests) would notice. Say, druids of a high enough level to polymorph/wild shape into a creature large enough to chew a kobold into tiny pieces.

And then there's all the other stuff, of course.

Surely you're not expecting Laurin to detect Elan, the Oracle or Goblin Dan on the other side of the rift before they're on the other side of the rift?

Generally speaking, you need life to sustain life. It's a bit easier to sustain civilization without, say, crops in a D&D world than in a magic-free world, but still not easy—especially if you need to support a civilization with novelty burger joints and capitalism with millionaires.

[arrowed]

There is some evidence in the d&d 3.5 book Elder Evils to support the idea of divine spellcasting having an inability to perceive the Snarl. The book states that every Elder Evil (more or less defined as an apocalypse-causing abomination) has immunity to divine divination spells, which fits with what we already know of the Snarl, although in-comic it is stated that this is a ban enforced by the gods, and probably extends to arcane spells. Some Elder Evils are outright immune to all divine magic, including the powers of gods.
A similar scenario actually crops up in the Wheel of Time series.

Spoiler: Mild spoilers ahead

Show

One character can see the future of the Pattern, and predicts events set to happen after the Last Battle, when the horrific abomination BBEG is set to succeed or fail at causing the end of the world. One character points out this should mean the BEG's failure is preordained, to which another points out that if the BBEG wins, the Pattern itself will be undone, thus negating any prophecy based on the integrity of the Pattern.

If we were to analogise the OotS scenario in this way, we might suggest that the Oracle's prophecies were at least in part based on the threads of reality used by the gods to make the world, and if the world is destroyed by the gods or unmade by the Snarl, those threads will be unravelled, thus preventing the prophecy from being completed. , I hear you emoticon.
This is a job for Captain Metaphor! Time is a rug/tapestry/thing in the process of being woven. The gods stand outside the rug and built the loom to weave the threads and set the pattern. They can see how the pattern is being woven, and predict what the next bit of the rug will look like. Tiamat can tell the Oracle about bits of the layout and how they'll shape up. But if the gods decide to cut the rug and build a new one, those threads will never be woven. Similarly if the snarl, trapped inside the loom, manages to unravel the rug, those threads will never be woven and the rug itself will no longer exist.
This is just extreme speculation of course, but I don't think it's cut and dry that the OotS timeline is set in stone (in universe at least).

[Porthos]

There is some evidence in the d&d 3.5 book Elder Evils to support the idea of divine spellcasting having an inability to perceive the Snarl. The book states that every Elder Evil (more or less defined as an apocalypse-causing abomination) has immunity to divine divination spells, which fits with what we already know of the Snarl, although in-comic it is stated that this is a ban enforced by the gods, and probably extends to arcane spells. Some Elder Evils are outright immune to all divine magic, including the powers of gods.
A similar scenario actually crops up in the Wheel of Time series.

Spoiler: Mild spoilers ahead

Show

One character can see the future of the Pattern, and predicts events set to happen after the Last Battle, when the horrific abomination BBEG is set to succeed or fail at causing the end of the world. One character points out this should mean the BEG's failure is preordained, to which another points out that if the BBEG wins, the Pattern itself will be undone, thus negating any prophecy based on the integrity of the Pattern.

If we were to analogise the OotS scenario in this way, we might suggest that the Oracle's prophecies were at least in part based on the threads of reality used by the gods to make the world, and if the world is destroyed by the gods or unmade by the Snarl, those threads will be unravelled, thus preventing the prophecy from being completed. , I hear you emoticon.
This is a job for Captain Metaphor! Time is a rug/tapestry/thing in the process of being woven. The gods stand outside the rug and built the loom to weave the threads and set the pattern. They can see how the pattern is being woven, and predict what the next bit of the rug will look like. Tiamat can tell the Oracle about bits of the layout and how they'll shape up. But if the gods decide to cut the rug and build a new one, those threads will never be woven. Similarly if the snarl, trapped inside the loom, manages to unravel the rug, those threads will never be woven and the rug itself will no longer exist.
This is just extreme speculation of course, but I don't think it's cut and dry that the OotS timeline is set in stone (in universe at least).

But... But... The Oracle can look at future books! Explain that away.

[Peelee]

But... But... The Oracle can look at future books! Explain that away.

The Giant visits a newly opened Jurassic Park, the dinosaurs don't escape, an asteroid hits the island causing a very tiny, localized extinction event, and the rest of the books don't get published.

Check and mate.

[Seto]

But... But... The Oracle can look at future books! Explain that away.

Honestly, I don't get the point in the first place. What is that supposed to prove?
Is it "the Oracle knows the books, so he knows more than Tiamat"? It is routine for characters in this strip, with normal or extended perception, to break the fourth wall. If Elan can remember the diamond from the character introduction page and Haley can literally go steal it from a panel, and thus PCs interact with past pages (identified as such), why would it be surprising that an NPC with predictive powers can see future pages (identified as such)? Or that Tiamat can, for that matter?

Is it "books will be published, so the world cannot end/the Oracle cannot be wrong"? Given that the telling of the story comes from a source external to the story (the author), the books would be published no matter what happens to the Oots-Verse. It's not a case of "the main character is the narrator recounting his past, so we know he's still alive". I actually find in-universe arguments (the BBQ Hydra Goblin for example) much stronger than this fourth-wall-based one.

I am genuinely asking, and hoping I have not made a fool of myself by missing something obvious, what is the argument here with the Oracle's access to future books?

[Kish]

The point, if I understand what Porthos is getting at, and if not I'll say it for myself, is that your claim that the Oracle's powers are in some way restricted or inaccurate lacks support; also it's not logical. If every god could foretell the future with the accuracy of "reading a not-yet-out compilation book" Hel would know exactly what the result of her current plan would be; more than that, her current plan would never have gotten this far because Heimdall and all the other gods would have seen it coming (nor would the Godsmoot be happening, because all the gods would just go, "I looked at the end of Book Seven; there's no need to destroy the world").

(Or, if you're one of the sometime advocates of "the world will be destroyed during the story!" that would only mean they looked and saw that the world was going to be destroyed and trying to avoid it would be pointless.)

In short--no one, including you, should "keep in mind" what you asserted "we must keep in mind." The Oracle's powers are the Oracle's powers, and they no more "depend on Tiamat's predictive power" than Greg nullifying Thor's storm proves that Hel is actually the northern storm god.

[Jasdoif]

Generally speaking, you need life to sustain life. It's a bit easier to sustain civilization without, say, crops in a D&D world than in a magic-free world, but still not easy—especially if you need to support a civilization with novelty burger joints and capitalism with millionaires.

So....Even assuming Laurin's telepathic scanning actually covers the entirety of the planet, and she was specifically scanning for life rather than creatures, and her scans were completely accurate (which would require the green land regions Blackwing saw to be colored minerals or something rather than vegetative regions)...it's just "not easy". In a setting based on a game framework that's centered around overcoming challenges.

I'm somehow unconvinced this carries much weight with regards to whether Elan, the Oracle or Goblin Dan could be detected through the rift prior to them being on the planet on the other side of the rift.

[Seto]

Ok, good point. We know that at least some divination spells (probably Commune) do depend directly upon communication with a deity, and this deity's knowledge. The Oracle's invocation to Tiamat made me assume that his spell was one of those - probably some plot-powered enhanced version of Commune. And I always did wonder about the reasons for Tiamat's heat-of-the-moment reaction to Familicide if the Oracle, and a fortiori she, had the means to know about it well in advance. (The Oracle knew about the Fiends' deal, at the very least).
You are correct, though, that we don't have evidence it's the way it works. I would call my assumption uncertain, but not unsupported. (But it's still assuming, a lot like breathing, yadda yadda yadda).

Also, fair point about what Tiamat (and the Gods) having knowledge about the books would imply in terms of their involvement in the current predicament. I'll still raise an objection to that: a lot of characters seem to know, at least momentarily, that they're in a comic book. (The example I gave about Elan, Haley and the diamond is one such occurrence, or some fourth-wall-breaking comments). It doesn't diminish their involvement in the comic world, though, or their knowledge that their world is real - because that's what moves the story forward. In a sense, the very awareness of being in a story, and living in a world that obeys to narrative laws, doesn't separate them from their role, but consolidates it further. (In other words, if I'm a God and I know the world doesn't end, and I also know I'm part of a story, I still insist to hold the vote because that's my part in the narrative process. I'm a good actor because I've read the script. Note that this applies to omniscient beings - PCs, as Elan has discovered, have the liberty to write their own story because they don't know the full script). I don't know if the Gods do have that kind of narrative omniscience, and I don't think so, and we'll never know for sure - but it's not unthinkable. At that point I'm more musing about the possibility of omniscience in a narrative world, sorry about the ramblings.
(Also maybe the fourth-wall-breakings are mostly jokes and we're giving too much importance to whether they're consistent with the overall story. But that's just a maybe, 'cause I think Burlew and OotS have grown beyond that.)

[Porthos]

Kish got it mostly, but I am more or less saying that the Oracle ISN'T limited by Tiamat. He can read future books, so he presumably knows whether or not the Snarl destroys the world. He sees the world not get destroyed by the end and thus he knows with confidence that his other vision of being turned into Purina Druid Chow is in fact going to happen.

So what powers his powers?

Hell if I know. Kobold dust, I suppose. In a strip like The Order of the Stick ignoring the power of breaking the fourth wall seems.... limiting. Or at least self-defeating given how many times it has happened.

I mean, if we want to get technical, how DID he understand Haley both in that panel and in the actual official question in the next strip without invoking the fourth wall breakage?

I might be tempted to ignore the meta- aspects of the Oracle, but by and large he IS a meta character. He regularly invokes commentary about what is going around him and his very function as a character is for meta reasons, as pointed out in the commentary for W&XP.

But even if we want to ignore all of that, it's not uncommon in stories for dieties to grant visions of the future that they either can't use themselves or can't act on them. Does that make logical sense? I dunno. I can make the old college try (invoking Slaughterhouse Five or The Watchmen or even the Dune series for that matter as analogies about how perfect knowledge of the future means one CAN'T change it, no matter how much one might want to), but not everyone is convinced.

Regardless, the Oracle has spouted accurate infomation about the future outside of being in a Tiamat Trance. He has to get it from somewhere. Pipeline directly to Rich Ao could be invoked if one wants a D&D-ish answer.

So, in summary, I don't agree that if Tiamat is limited to imperfect future knowledge, the Oracle is as well. We have too much text-evidence to suggest that he is in fact not limited by Tiamat and that he can indeed know things that Tiamat doesn't know about. Familicide, for one. And if someone has to insist on an in-world access for the info, Ao (that is the DM [which is in fact Rich]) works well enough for me.

[Kish]

No Forgotten Realms characters will be accepted as an explanation of anything that isn't a pure joke (on the level of "why Zz'dtri has scimitars and that name"), for my part, I'm afraid. Ao? Here? Someone get the Snarl over here already!

[Porthos]

No Forgotten Realms characters will be accepted as an explanation of anything that isn't a pure joke (on the level of "why Zz'dtri has scimitars and that name"), for my part, I'm afraid. Ao? Here? Someone get the Snarl over here already!

Fair enuf. The whole concept of "even the gods have to answer to someone" then. Or just cut out the middleperson and invoke the DM.

I just wanted to have something vaguely familiar to D&D types.

[Jasdoif]

I just wanted to have something vaguely familiar to D&D types.

But it's not true

And just to be clear: There is no "overgod" in OOTS at all. There are the nonsentient cosmological forces of the four alignments (Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos), which can be tapped directly for clerical power if you prefer not to go through a deific intermediary, but they have no capacity to take action any more than the force of gravity does. They certainly took no part in shaping the rules and procedures of the OOTS afterlife, as that was entirely done by the gods themselves.

[Porthos]

But it's not true

Fine, fine, fine. Conduit directly to Rich then.

Or, Kobold dust. Take your pick, makes no difference to me.

[Jasdoif]

Fine, fine, fine. Conduit directly to Rich then.

Or, Kobold dust. Take your pick, makes no difference to me.

Oh, but it makes all the difference. "Conduit directly to Rich" is tapping into out-of-universe knowledge, which is what makes the meta-commentary aspect of the Oracle actually work; in a way that kobold dust (or a fictitious-even-in-universe overdeity) wouldn't quite be able to accomplish.

Unless kobold dust is a side-effect of the conduit in a kobold, like dandruff charged with an extradimensional aura.

[GreatWyrmGold]

There is some evidence in the d&d 3.5 book Elder Evils to support the idea of divine spellcasting having an inability to perceive the Snarl. The book states that every Elder Evil (more or less defined as an apocalypse-causing abomination) has immunity to divine divination spells, which fits with what we already know of the Snarl, although in-comic it is stated that this is a ban enforced by the gods, and probably extends to arcane spells. Some Elder Evils are outright immune to all divine magic, including the powers of gods.

That's all well and good, but it's not the Snarl's actions that matter—it's the gods' actions.
And if the result of Hel's plan and so on really was that unpredictable, even in the event that the world was saved it would be difficult if not impossible to know exactly who and when the next person to kill the Oracle would be. For that matter, if the results were truly unknown, the Oracle's response to Elan's question of if the story would have a happy ending would be something more like "For you? Yes, unless you guy screw this up".

This is just extreme speculation of course, but I don't think it's cut and dry that the OotS timeline is set in stone (in universe at least).

That doesn't work so well in a world with accurate, (reasonably) specific prophecies being sold for a couple hundred GP a pop.

I'm somehow unconvinced this carries much weight with regards to whether Elan, the Oracle or Goblin Dan could be detected through the rift prior to them being on the planet on the other side of the rift.

It's pretty damn unlikely—especially since the Goblin Dan bit proves that life on the other side is easy enough for a hydra-head BBQ to be a capitalist fortune-maker rather than a staple of scraping by.
And I doubt Elan would be happy with any ending that involves the world being destroyed and fleeing to an unknown world which might be inside of some eldritch abomination.

If every god could foretell the future with the accuracy of "reading a not-yet-out compilation book" Hel would know exactly what the result of her current plan would be; more than that, her current plan would never have gotten this far because Heimdall and all the other gods would have seen it coming (nor would the Godsmoot be happening, because all the gods would just go, "I looked at the end of Book Seven; there's no need to destroy the world").

Let's say that the Oracle having access to future books means all gods have access and use it. (It doesn't—others have covered how the Oracle could have such access, and it shouldn't take a genius to realize that there could be something which makes the gods reluctant or forget to do so—but let's go with it.) Why do they go with it?
Let's start with Hel. Why bother with her plan? Well, it could just be a power play—a reminder that if it weren't for that meddling Order and their little ranger, too, Hel could have taken over the pantheon—so show her some respect, dammit! (One might argue that access to the books would be enough, but I don't buy it. People pay more attention to other people gloating about their near-victory than something they read in a comic book.) Maybe she wants to mess with the other gods. Maybe the plan doesn't fulfill its (alleged) intended goal, but still gives Hel something she wants. Maybe she's just bored and figures she doesn't have anything to lose.
Why don't the gods stop her, and why do they bother with the vote? Maybe the other gods don't think Hel can pull it off, or maybe a lot of the gods feel sorry for Hel or angry at Odin and his son(s). Maybe the gods fear the Snarl too much, or want to destroy the world for some other reason (say, they're bored with it).
And then there's the possibility that the future is fixed—which makes sense in this case, since if it wasn't the comic and its books would be in a constant state of flux. Hel has to go through with her plan, even if she knows it will fail. The other gods have to vote on if they should destroy the world, even if there's no point. And so on and so forth.
The point is that there are a lot of explanations if you bother to think about it, even if you dismiss the idea that the Oracle's visions don't come straight from Tiamat.

[Jasdoif]

It's pretty damn unlikely—especially since the Goblin Dan bit proves that life on the other side is easy enough for a hydra-head BBQ to be a capitalist fortune-maker rather than a staple of scraping by.
And I doubt Elan would be happy with any ending that involves the world being destroyed and fleeing to an unknown world which might be inside of some eldritch abomination.

Sounds to me like you're making a lot of assumptions about what set of events could possibly lead to Elan, the Oracle and Goblin Dan arriving on the world inside the rift...on top of all the assumptions you already made about the world inside the rift.