The Oracle's upcoming resurrection

[Onyavar]

He can read future books, so he presumably knows whether or not the Snarl destroys the world.

Was there a second reference for "future books" somewhere? I can only recall the reference to the future books where Haley's cryptospeech will be translated. And that future is now a few years in the past. So based on this piece of Oracle Lore, we don't know whether the world survives the OotS campaign or not.

The other few proofs (Goblin Dan and the oracle's resurrection) are still there, but I prefer to read them as funny one-iners.

I'm convinced from a meta-perspective that the world isn't going to end, but that's another cup of cola.

[Jasdoif]

Was there a second reference for "future books" somewhere?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

"We're in the middle of a scene you don't remember in a narrated flashback framed by a flash-forward in a prequel book. There's no way in hell you're finding your way back here."

[Kish]

There are two different questions being debated here.

1) Does the Oracle's upcoming resurrection prove the world won't end?

2) Does the Oracle getting his powers from Tiamat mean the Oracle's prophecies are fundamentally unreliable?

To which my answers, personally, are:

1) The world isn't going to end. As long as you arrive at that conclusion I am unconcerned with the route you take to get there.
2) No, nor does anything else mean that. The Oracle can lie, and might conceivably lie about a prophecy if he would benefit from doing so (note: this has to be an actual benefit, not a speculative one, as the Oracle presumably saw the result of this scheme!) but no actual prophecy, however many people wish it to, is going to be resolved with "it was just a prophecy, whyever would you think that mean it would come true?"

[arrowed]

Some other thread may well have already discussed this, but... if the Oracle knew Belkar was going to kill him, why did he let Belkar kill him? Does he have a duty to maintain the space-time continuum? Did he do it so Belkar would suffer under his Greater Mark of Justice? Or (conspiracy theory time) did he foresee that Belkar might kill him, set up some contingencies, and run the risk of being killed at the possible benefit of some other unclear payoff?

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, you could assume the hints are accurate, and that the protagonists will prevent the destruction of the world, overcoming every obstacle as they always have.

Or that all of it is a lie, and that Rich will deliver a really grim and depressing end to all this tongue-in-cheek and light-hearted humorous story, telling that no matter how many obstacles you courageously overcome, in the end evil prevails. A fine continuation to this series of utterly grim and depressing events that have unfolded in the story over all those years, so far, right?

I mean, seriously, are people really doubting that the world will be saved and that Xykon will be defeated?

[Jasdoif]

The world isn't going to end. As long as you arrive at that conclusion I am unconcerned with the route you take to get there.

What if the people on the world end up being taken to the planet inside the rift, making that "the world"?

It's a long shot, I admit, but I seriously doubt the existence of the planet in the rift is going to be resolved with "Everything Shojo said about the Snarl and the rifts being a force of pure destruction that tears planets and gods asunder is completely true, except for this one time!" and then just glossed over. I think we're going to have a reveal at some point...if not what the deal is with the planet and the Snarl and whatnot; then who made up and/or promoted the Snarl story in the first place without the planet, and why.

And since Shojo's and Redcloak's tales are the only source of info we have on the Snarl, and neither of them related anything about a planet, it could very well be that a reveal involves an excursion to the place, and an excursion could uncover/be the basis for a mass exodus...especially if it turns out it's an approach the gods can't/won't consider themselves, leaving the Order of the Stick the ultimate agency for saving the population of the world in the face of the gods' willingness to exterminate them along with the planet for their own benefit.

[arrowed]

Well, you could assume the hints are accurate, and that the protagonists will prevent the destruction of the world, overcoming every obstacle as they always have.

Or that all of it is a lie, and that Rich will deliver a really grim and depressing end to all this tongue-in-cheek and light-hearted humorous story, telling that no matter how many obstacles you courageously overcome, in the end evil prevails. A fine continuation to this series of utterly grim and depressing events that have unfolded in the story over all those years, so far, right?

I mean, seriously, are people really doubting that the world will be saved and that Xykon will be defeated?

From outside the Ootsverse (i.e. the real world) no, I don't think Evil will triumph and Bad Things happen, but in-universe the idea that the Oracle knows the Order will save the day is... intriguing. If you read/watched Harry Potter you may well have decided that there was going to be a happy ending, but none of the characters say 'I have seen the future and I have no problem sending my as-yet-unborn kids to Hogwarts'. The Oracle is super-meta, but still, it's unusual.

[WindStruck]

Oh thank heavens! The world isn't going to be destroyed yet? I guess that means I can stop caring about anything that happens and stop reading the comic strip updates, since we know the world will be safe. All those petty details like the uncovering of the desert empires conspiracy or that warrior hero who defeated an arch lich trying to take over the world are meaningless. The only thing that matters is the date the world ends.

[Porthos]

Some other thread may well have already discussed this,

It's been discussed once or twice.

but... if the Oracle knew Belkar was going to kill him, why did he let Belkar kill him? Does he have a duty to maintain the space-time continuum? Did he do it so Belkar would suffer under his Greater Mark of Justice? Or (conspiracy theory time) did he foresee that Belkar might kill him, set up some contingencies, and run the risk of being killed at the possible benefit of some other unclear payoff?

This presumes that one can change the future. It's not a given in all works of fiction that it IS possible to change it.

So if the future can't be changed, why did the Oracle try to weasel out of it? Several possible answers. His attempt to weasel out of it WAS part of the chain of events to unfold. Or he just liked messing with Belkar. Or the ever popular "dying HURTS - I'm going to try to muck about even if it won't work because, as I said, HURTS".

Whether or not the hypothetical reader might engage in that sort of reasoning isn't really the issue. It's whether or not The Oracle would. From what we've seen, his messing about with Belkar before he died seems to fit his personality. Since he wanted "to have [his] fun where [he] could" and all that.

[Doug Lampert]

It's been discussed once or twice.



This presumes that one can change the future. It's not a given in all works of fiction that it IS possible to change it.

So if the future can't be changed, why did the Oracle try to weasel out of it? Several possible answers. His attempt to weasel out of it WAS part of the chain of events to unfold. Or he just liked messing with Belkar. Or the ever popular "dying HURTS - I'm going to try to muck about even if it won't work because, as I said, HURTS".

Whether or not the hypothetical reader might engage in that sort of reasoning isn't really the issue. It's whether or not The Oracle would. From what we've seen, his messing about with Belkar before he died seems to fit his personality. Since he wanted "to have [his] fun where [he] could" and all that.

If the future can be changed by seeing/hearing/knowing about a prophesy and acting on it; then prophesies are totally pointless and utterly worthless.

Because either (1) knowing about a prophesy changes your actions in some way and thus voids the prophesy (seriously, if actions taken in response to the prophesy void the prophesy, then anything I do in response to knowing about it voids it), or (2) no one who knows about the prophesy will do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER differently because they know about the prophesy, thus voiding any value the prophesy might have.

Prophesies are only worthwhile if they can't be voided, either because they take counter-measures into account and are basically self-fulfilling, or because they'll happen regardless of any countermeasures.

Thus trying to avoid a prophesy is futile, either you can't do it, or you don't need to bother to do it.

The value of an accurate prophesy ISN'T that you can void it (in which case it isn't an accurate prophesy in the first place), it's that you can take appropriate measures so the prophesy coming true won't hurt you.

Edited to add: I tried to fix Porthos's link in the reference, I hope I got this right.

[Peelee]

If the future can be changed by seeing/hearing/knowing about a prophesy and acting on it; then prophesies are totally pointless and utterly worthless.

Except for the purpose of getting the person to act on it. For instance, if Al eats a stick of butter for lunch every day, and Bob prophesizes, "you will die on St. Bob's Day five years from now, due to clogged arteries," Al could continue lunching on a stick of butter every day and die on St. Bob's Day, or start eating salads for lunch and potentially not die on St. Bob's Day. If the future can be changed, then it would greatly behoove Al to act on it. This has quite a great deal of worth to Al.

[Doug Lampert]

Except for the purpose of getting the person to act on it. For instance, if Al eats a stick of butter for lunch every day, and Bob prophesizes, "you will die on St. Bob's Day five years from now, due to clogged arteries," Al could continue lunching on a stick of butter every day and die on St. Bob's Day, or start eating salads for lunch and potentially not die on St. Bob's Day. If the future can be changed, then it would greatly behoove Al to act on it. This has quite a great deal of worth to Al.

Bob has heard it and it in some way changes his behavior, so if the prophesy was only valid without any change in behavior then it was never in fact valid at all.

The value you claim is totally irrelevant to the claim that it's a prophesy, because the prophesy had zero validity. If you want to assign superstitious value to a prophesy you KNOW has no more chance of coming true than a random guess, because it no longer works after you hear it, then that's your business. But the prophesy is worthless. It never had any more chance of being true than one naming a day four years in the future, or six years, or on St. Glenda's day rather than St. Bob's.

Because hearing the prophesy by someone who'll react to it has certainly invalidated the one and easily disrupted sequence of events that was seen.

[Throknor]

Some other thread may well have already discussed this, but... if the Oracle knew Belkar was going to kill him, why did he let Belkar kill him? Does he have a duty to maintain the space-time continuum? Did he do it so Belkar would suffer under his Greater Mark of Justice? Or (conspiracy theory time) did he foresee that Belkar might kill him, set up some contingencies, and run the risk of being killed at the possible benefit of some other unclear payoff?

I'd say he had no realistic way to stop him, other than maybe being closed when he stopped by. But in a reality where a) he could plan his own resurrection to almost the minute and b) he could plan for a village large enough to get instant revenge, why would he stop it? While we know he was out for Xykon, Xykon is an undead liche. We don't know what kind of contract the Oracle is in to have his powers; he might not be allowed to avoid those (living) that seek him out.

I've mentioned this before, but I've read another story where there was an Oracle-like source that was 100% accurate but the point they reinforced was the utter uselessness in knowing the right answer to the wrong question. That isn't necessarily the Giant's overall point here, but in general the only one of the group that actually obtained a useful answer might have been Haley. The irony there (in this context) is her answer is what led them back to the Oracle to be killed - if he had given a more direct answer like 'Enjoy your New Year's date' she might not have thought to go back and the whole attack would have been avoided.

I seem to have rambled a little bit, so I'll summarize: the Oracle knew Belkar would be inconvenienced by the attack a lot more than the he would, so why not let it go?

Closer to the main topic, even if the Snarl's actions are beyond prophesy the results can't be. If the Oracle can't see that that the Snarl would destroy the world on next Tuesday he would still be able to see that he's getting a reading for himself on Monday and not on Wednesday. If nothing else the self question of "On wait date will I be Raised next?" would not have an answer if he would be erased from existence or otherwise rendered incapable of being raised before that. The answer wouldn't be some random date.

[Kish]

It occurs to me that the "the Oracle trolls Belkar" sequence demonstrates that the Oracle, even if he tries to change the outcome he saw, can't. "Worth a shot though," he said as his prophecy that Belkar would kill him came true.

We are still talking about the comic when we debate scenarios where prophesied events get changed, right? Not having an off-topic argument over prophecies in general?

[Peelee]

Bob has heard it and it in some way changes his behavior, so if the prophesy was only valid without any change in behavior then it was never in fact valid at all.

So if Bob never changed his behavior, and the prophecy came true, then it still had no value and was not valid? I'm sorry, I don't follow.

[Onyavar]

So if Bob never changed his behavior, and the prophecy came true, then it still had no value and was not valid? I'm sorry, I don't follow.

I think, Doug was setting up the conundrum of "who is a reliable oracle", and how will people react to the prophecy of an infallible oracle?

If Bob is known as a reliable oracle when it comes to conditional prophecies, "if Al continues to eat butter sticks each day, he WILL die then and there", then Al can heed the advice and prevent his death. By not fulfilling the condition, Al "cheats" his "fate". Because it's less of "fate" and more of a conditional trigger.

If Bob isn't a reliable oracle, then whatever Al does will not change his future. He might die later (and be healthier in the meantime) if he believes Bob, but his fate isn't tied to any "real" prophecy.

If Bob is infallible, however, Al has two ways to act: He can ignore the prophecy, and surprise! He end's up dead within five years from clogged arteries. Bob says: I told you so!
Or, Al can live healthy from now on, and still die on St. Bobs day five years in the future like Bob foresaw. On his deathbed, Bob reveals that if he hadn't told Al of his future, Al would have died much sooner, so by telling him of his future knowledge, he prevented Al's untimely death, which allowed Al to finish his software project, which was in turn necessary for several other prophecies...

And OUR oracle is THIS kind of an oracle: A smug know-it-all jerk who enjoys his role. All his prophecies so far have been shown as true word-for-word. There were never any conditions to his prophecies, so we can surmise the remaining ones will all come true as well. Simply because it wouldn't be much of a point to set up an infallible oracle in a story and then show him to err on the last prophecy.

And the twists we have seen in the prophecies ensure that we can't be sure to know how it all plays out.

Back to my question about the prequel books:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

"We're in the middle of a scene you don't remember in a narrated flashback framed by a flash-forward in a prequel book. There's no way in hell you're finding your way back here."

Thanks. I will dig the books out but I was under the impression that the Oracle referred to a scene that has been printed already.

[Goblin_Priest]

From outside the Ootsverse (i.e. the real world) no, I don't think Evil will triumph and Bad Things happen, but in-universe the idea that the Oracle knows the Order will save the day is... intriguing. If you read/watched Harry Potter you may well have decided that there was going to be a happy ending, but none of the characters say 'I have seen the future and I have no problem sending my as-yet-unborn kids to Hogwarts'. The Oracle is super-meta, but still, it's unusual.

Different world, different author, different genre. Note that I've read all of the books except the last one, and equally seen all of the movies except the last one, so I don't actually know what the end you refer to is.

Many aspects of the Harry Potter series delve into grim themes, evil actions and their lasting consequences... In the OotS? Even when grim themes are brought forth, humor is usually quick to return to make things light-hearted again. Sure, the world itself isn't all pink and giggles, but it remains humorous. Then, there's also the comments from Rich on these forums about his writing philosophy. When he talks about how some people might be influenced to what they read online (such as this comic), and doesn't want them to incite to do bad things (for example, that suicide is never the answer), kind of makes you doubt that it will end with the efforts of the protagonists having all been in vain.

Do the characters know if the world will end or not? I don't think they do, they certainly don't act like they do. But do we, the readers, have reasonable evidence to presume that the world will not be destroyed? I think we do. Sure, they might be plot twists, heck I'd expect some. And that planet in the rifts sure needs some explaining. But millions (billions) of souls being unmade or sent to their makers? I don't think so. Xykon prevailing in the end? I don't think so.

[Peelee]

Muchas gracias, Onyavar!

[Bongos]

But... But... The Oracle can look at future books! Explain that away.

The Oracle doesn't say he reads future books, he says he looks into the future where the strip he is in right now gets compiled into a book and translated.

He never makes a mention of reading books in the future where the events haven't occurred yet in the strip does he?

Though he does seem to have a knowledge of the plot order, and of course he can see into future.

[Jasdoif]

The Oracle doesn't say he reads future books, he says he looks into the future where the strip he is in right now gets compiled into a book and translated.

And reads the translation, yes.

[Sir_Norbert]

From outside the Ootsverse (i.e. the real world) no, I don't think Evil will triumph and Bad Things happen, but in-universe the idea that the Oracle knows the Order will save the day is... intriguing. If you read/watched Harry Potter you may well have decided that there was going to be a happy ending, but none of the characters say 'I have seen the future and I have no problem sending my as-yet-unborn kids to Hogwarts'. The Oracle is super-meta, but still, it's unusual.

You seem to have forgotten that a prophecy was a major part of the overall Harry Potter plotline. And, for all that Dumbledore insisted that not every prophecy comes true, the ones that were connected to the story we were actually reading... all did come true.

I like to retain an open mind, in that conceivably, I think there could be reasons we haven't foreseen why Rich might include the Oracle in the story, and then undermine him by making one of the prophecies fail. But I think it's extremely unlikely that will happen. By far the most likely reason for including foreshadowing in a story is to excite the reader's anticipation as to how it will come true, and then make it come true so the reader can look back at the foreshadowing and see how it was set up and all fits together.