[3.5] Balancing my party

[Cheech]

About to start DMing my first campaign, after years of playing. We'll be playing D&D 3.5

I have 4 players, 2 with a fair amount of experience, and 2 completely new to tabletop roleplaying. We have a wizard, a cleric, a monk and an investigator (from pathfinder), with the cleric and monk played by the new players. We're starting at level 4.

Neither of my experienced players are particularly optimisers, so I'm not really worried about them breaking the campaign. The wizard I think will be doing a lot of blasting. But I am worried about the monk's player being outclassed and feeling useless. I've interested him in the psionic fist prestige class, and am trying to nudge him towards picking good feats.

Will that be enough, do you think? I'm not averse to boosting the class - maybe by giving it full attack bonus, or d10 hit dice, or 6 skillpoints per level. But as the first 6 levels of monk are generally considered ok, and he's moving to psionic fist after that, I'm wondering whether it's even necessary.

[Rebel7284]

Perhaps tell them about the Tashalatora feat and combine with better psionic classes? Something like Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 can do this quite well and Monk 2/Ardent 18 is even better with the right mantles.

[Quertus]

Usually, when someone has a balance question, they're only interested in beating down the strong. You are actually asking about uplifting the weak. Kudos!

Personally, I'd avoid changing the rules until you're certain that there actually is a problem. At that point, to avoid recon, I'd have some dramatic something happen, that fundamentally changes and empowers the character.

However

I always advocate everyone having fun and everyone having a role to play over party balance.

For example, suppose you have a 5th level rogue in a 15th level party. If the traps are all level-appropriate for the rogue, and most creatures are selected for their low perception abilities, the rogue's player should have ample opportunity to shine - while getting copious amounts of wealth and XP by traveling with and learning from such skilled companions.

[Cheech]

Perhaps tell them about the Tashalatora feat and combine with better psionic classes? Something like Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 can do this quite well and Monk 2/Ardent 18 is even better with the right mantles.

Thanks for the suggestion. I feel like Tashalatora builds might be a bit complicated for him, as he's new to D&D. And for me, potentially, as I've never used psionics before. And also, it might feel less like "you're a monk who later becomes this kind of monk" and more like "take this other class, and add a bit of monk". I gave him the players handbook to look through, and he picked the monk, so I don't want to take him too far from that, at least initially.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, your initial two monk feats can be a lot of different things. You, as DM, can easily rule that they are Weapon Supremacy (unarmed strike) and Snap Kick, or something like that. That's a bit cheesy, but a decent way to improve a monk at lower levels.

Another good option is to add some maneuvers, particularly move-and-full-attack stuff (Swift Jump, at first level), and not-damage-but-useful stuff (White Raven buffs, Setting Sun/Diamond Mind counters).

[Fizban]

First and biggest part of my Monk fix: AC bonus. Crank that sucker up, 2+1/2 monk level. People expect unarmored martial artists to be hard to hit, not laughably easy, and the first part of this is giving them an innate AC bonus that actually matches armor. Monk AC bonus should stack with Bracers of Armor (or Monkwraps of Armor) so they don't lose out on the normal Enhancement scaling, but you can have it not stack with Mage Armor if you want.

Second part: give him Wall Walker from Dungeonscape and Water Step from Stormwrack, in addition to rather than replacing Slow Fall. With the ability to both run up and slide down walls, and move across water, the monk should actually have some mobility.

Third: very common, allow Flurry of Blows on standard action attacks, so that you aren't massively penalized for moving, and explicitly allow gauntlets/handwraps for enhancing unarmed.

Fourth: the Wholeness of Body ability is equal to your full normal hit points instead of some tiny amount (much like a Guardinal's Lay on Hands, except self-only). This makes the ability useful in combat as a 1/day full hp recovery, and makes a Monk stand out from other "mundanes" in that they do in fact recover all hp in a single day without need for magic items.

Fifth: if the campaign runs long enough, throw in a bonus feat at 10th, 14th, and 18th, from any feat associated with Monks. Just to fill things out and help with those massive feat trees.

And I think that's enough to do the job, everything else can be optimized out of. Optimize weapons for damage, buy/buff appropriate defenses, etc. You can modify later abilities as well, but I think this all works up through 11th.


Regarding Psionic Fist: it gives you a slightly sped up Psychic Warrior progression and continues Monk AC/damage/speed, in exchange for burning a feat on Wild Talent and tanking your Flurry of Blows and other Monk abilities. While it does give him "casting" it won't be as good as the Investigator's nor will he have the other pile of class abilities, so a direct comparison is still a bad idea. More so than feats, power selection becomes key there. Personally I think it would be easier to buff the monk and it it ride. If you do use Psionic Fist, bump the hit die to d8 at least, there is no reason for it to be a d6.

[Cheech]

Some great suggestions here. Thanks everyone.

There seems to be a broad consensus that the monk does indeed need some boosting.

I like the idea of letting flurry of blows be used on standard attacks. Not come across it before, but it makes sense. Would it be usable on a charge as well?

I was already planning on letting his unarmoured AC bonus stack with mage armour (and bracers of armour). Which will be a pretty available boost with a wizard in the party, and will probably give him the best starting AC of the 4 characters.

Having just sold him on the psionic fist, I'm reluctant to try and un-sell him on it. I'll definitely up the hit die to d8. Hadn't even noticed it was only a d6. I'm also minded to let psionic fist continue to advance flurry of blows, as well as the existing advancements to speed, damage and AC. That way he's really losing very little by going into it.

Giving him wall walker and water step makes sense, but I'm reluctant to add more new stuff than necessary, as he's new to the game, so I'm minded to leave them off. That's one of the reasons letting mage armour stack and flurry of blows work on a standard action is so appealing - he probably won't even be aware that those are houserules, he'll just accept that that's how they work.

Do those sound like reasonable adjustments? Do you think more is needed?

[A_S]

I was already planning on letting his unarmoured AC bonus stack with mage armour (and bracers of armour).

Just a quick note, this isn't a house rule. The Monk AC bonus is untyped, and Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor both provide armor bonuses, which stack by default. The only way they wouldn't work together by default would be if you ruled that wearing bracers counts as "wearing armor."

[Fizban]

Just a quick note, this isn't a house rule. The Monk AC bonus is untyped, and Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor both provide armor bonuses, which stack by default. The only way they wouldn't work together by default would be if you ruled that wearing bracers counts as "wearing armor."

To be clear, Mage Armor stacks with monk AC, and Bracers stack with monk AC, but Mage Armor and Bracers do not stack with each other. This means that not only does the monk require the Wizard just to reach basic functionality (for a few hours per day), it also means that once you pass the first few levels where Mage Armor is enough by itself, the scaling stops and the Monk is screwed, even if the Wizard keeps burning more spells to buff them.

For comparison, at 2+1/2 level he reaches +4 on his own at 4th, and can boost it at the same price you'd pay for +X armor with +X Bracers of Armor.

Giving him wall walker and water step makes sense, but I'm reluctant to add more new stuff than necessary, as he's new to the game, so I'm minded to leave them off. That's one of the reasons letting mage armour stack and flurry of blows work on a standard action is so appealing - he probably won't even be aware that those are houserules, he'll just accept that that's how they work.

One: don't teach him that's how they work to begin with, otherwise you're gonna have a player who doesn't know how the rules work. Two: it takes no more effort than saying Flurry works on standard attacks. "Hey, you know how Slow Fall lets you slide down walls? You can also use it to run up them or across water, because I said so."

[Efrate]

Since you are already using some pathfinder stuff, take a look at the unchained monk from pathfinder. It fixes a lot of monk issues, gives you some versatility, and allows you to be relevant for a decent bit of your progression. Its also already easily written up with links to everything relevant, making referencing fairly simple provided you have an internet connection. Ki points are very easy to track and use, and much simpler than going into psionics. You can easily google it and have a look, I had a new player play a monk and that is what we ended up going with and it remained competitive with the rest of the (fairly low op) groups right up until a mind flayer ate her brains, which was around level eight (rolling 1s sucks).

[Firest Kathon]

I support the suggestion of using the Pathfinder Unchained Monk. Have a link.

[Pugwampy]

If a newbie is playing monk , why not just have him reroll for "god" stats or skip that and change his STR DEX CON and WIS to 18 . Thats what an awesome monk needs .
I am sure the vet players wont complain about having a nice tank to hide behind .

[Fizban]

If a newbie is playing monk , why not just have him reroll for "god" stats or skip that and change his STR DEX CON and WIS to 18 . Thats what an awesome monk needs .
I am sure the vet players wont complain about having a nice tank to hide behind .

Extra strength only mitigates the lack of damage from standard magic weapons. Extra dex and wis only mitigate the lack of scaling AC from standard magic armors (not that it's a good rate of scaling). High con is desired for every character. Giving higher starting numbers does nothing to change the lack of scaling, it just delays the problem.

[lytokk]

Part of my usual monk fix is to allow wisdom as a bonus to a lot of additional rolls. Bonus to hit, bonus to damage, bonus to skill rolls. Not initiatives or saves. Also, I've toyed with weapon finesse for free, but I waffle back and forth. Same with full BAB. I haven't had anyone in my games actually want to play a monk for some reason.

[illyahr]

I would also point out Intuitive Attack from Book of Exalted Deeds. You need to be Good, but you can use your Wisdom instead of Strength on attack rolls with light or natural weapons.

[meemaas]

I would also point out Intuitive Attack from Book of Exalted Deeds. You need to be Good, but you can use your Wisdom instead of Strength on attack rolls with light or natural weapons.

That actually arguably hurts their damage though, since it doesn't add Wis to damage.

My suggestion. Give the player the Vow of Poverty benefits without the penalties. Trade the Exalted feats for, for example, Fighter feats, and that plus standard action flurry should be more than enough to keep him going.

[TorsteinTheRed]

I would suggest a few things:

Allow the Monk to qualify for Multiweapon Fighting, with each arm and leg counting as a weapon, giving them 1 main attack and 3 off'hand' attacks. If you're allowing Flurry of Blows to work as a Standard action, then MWF gives them something to do on a Full Attack.

Allow the Monk to buy a Necklace of Natural Attacks. This helps to mitigate the usual inability to be flexible with weapon enhancements, and if you allow said necklace to enchant each limb separately, then they can look like the Super Skrull :P

A Ring of Greater Mighty Wallop can get a monk's damage per hit into the double digits of dice if built right. I once bought a stash of 16 d8s for a half minotaur with this.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Provide a free Ancestral Relic-like ability for their unarmed strikes and skin (separately), allowing them to be enhanced as weapons and armour/robes respectively. This is not a complete fix, but it works nicely in conjunction with abilities that improve versatility and synergy between class abilities.

[Cheech]

Loads of good ideas for boosting the monk. Thanks everyone. And a strong consensus that monk/psionic fist does need some kind of boost. So I'll consider all of the suggestions, and make some adjustments.

[JonVMD]

There are many mechanics to lower the difficult. Combat Hates, magic itens, change hp or damage from the monsters. You need to be creative, or your player will feel that you are intervening.

[tyruth]

The main thing is to try and structure the encounters around the players so that they all feel included. If you find that the monk is struggling in primarily combat based ones, but they're a good problem solver; try adding in a few puzzles or something. But to build some encounters around the strengths of the players, and not just the party as a whole.

Also, the Vow of Poverty isn't great for anyone, it's benefits aren't as good as regular equipment other than there's nothing to steal/break (generally a bad move to do) and I think a bunch of them work in antimagic areas. If you're wanting to go down that route to buff up the monk to the same level as the rest of the party combat wise, check out some of the fixes for that. Personally with monks I go somewhere along the lines of Monk 2-6/Psionic Fist (with things like Drunken master in there to fill out the 20 levels)