The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #1231
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I wonder if Ash even checks this thread still...
    I'm sure he does.

  2. - Top - End - #1232
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    TOZ's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
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    Male

    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    My presence online has gotten so scattered over too many communication apps. So many forums to check. I should really cut back...
    Players are like water. They go everywhere.
    So you need to cut the channels that direct them where you want them to go.
    If they try to skip the channel, let them. Cut another one ahead of them.
    Eventually, they'll take the channel. They'll even think it was entirely their own idea.
    When you try to build a dam, that's when they resent you.

  3. - Top - End - #1233
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by TOZ View Post
    My presence online has gotten so scattered over too many communication apps. So many forums to check. I should really cut back...
    I feel ya. I basically just use this site for general stuff, Discord for personal communications, and Paiz strictly for PbPs now. Keeps my tabs light and each site has a distinct purpose so there's no weird mixups. I used to be on like 10 different forums and it suuuuucked in hindsight.

  4. - Top - End - #1234
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    TOZ's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Phoenix, AZ
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    Male

    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    I used to be a one forum kind of guy, used AIM and YIM for real time communication. Then I branched out to a whole slew of them, and new chat programs kept popping up among my acquaintances. I should spend some time reducing down, but that would require cutting off some people who I only communicate with on specific channels. :/
    Players are like water. They go everywhere.
    So you need to cut the channels that direct them where you want them to go.
    If they try to skip the channel, let them. Cut another one ahead of them.
    Eventually, they'll take the channel. They'll even think it was entirely their own idea.
    When you try to build a dam, that's when they resent you.

  5. - Top - End - #1235
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Pathfinder 2 is released today. I looked through aonprd to see if it hits one of my pet peeves: the "core rules" of a game should be self-contained, without references to rules in another book. If the "core rules" require the use of rules in another book, then that book should also be part of the core rules.

    D&D does a pretty good job with this. There are three core rulebooks. All three make references to the other two, but you can use all of them without having to refer to any rules outside of those three books. Some other, simpler systems manage with just one core rulebook which is entirely self contained.

    Pathfinder 1e has two core books. The issue is that the name of one of the two core rulebooks is a lie. The name "Core Rulebook" makes it sound like that one book contains the full core rules of Pathfinder, with everything you need to play included. Except, it isn't actually self-contained. The so-called "core rulebook" includes the druid class, which gets an animal companion. But where are the stats for animal companions? They are in another book. If you want to play a druid in Pathfinder, you either need the bestiary, or you need to refer to the online rules. Either way, the so-called "Core Rulebook" isn't a self-contained set of rules.

    There are other examples. The Summon Monster spells are in the Core Rulebook, but the stats for all the creatures you can summon are in the Bestiary. With calling spells it is even worse: not only does the CRB not give stats for the outsiders you can call with Planar Binding, it doesn't even provide a list of what you can call in the first place. That, too, requires referencing the bestiary or another source with the same information.

    For Pathfinder 2, Paizo has again opted to have books with the titles "Core Rulebook" and "Bestiary." I tried to figure out, based on AoN, whether the title of the new "core rulebook" is misleading like the 1e version. I.e., is the 2e Core Rulebook actually self-contained, or does it refer to rules in the Bestiary (or some other book)?

    While there may be some discrepencies between the website and the actual books, it appears to me that 2e has the same issue as 1e. The 2e Core Rulebook contains summoning spells, including Summon Animal. The new PRD seems to indicate that the Core Rulebook doesn't even include a list of what animals are summonable, let alone their stats. The Paizo store page for the Bestiary also says that it contains stats for summonable monsters.

    To be clear, I am not saying that having two separate core rulebooks is a bad thing, I am just bothered by the fact that one of the two core books is advertised as "the" core rulebook, when the other one is necessary to play.

    I don't yet have an opinion on the actual rules of Pathfinder 2e. I read some of the preview blogs from early 2019, but I completely avoided the playtest and I haven't read any of the new preview blogs from this summer. In the brief time I looked at the online rules today, there is one change that I was able to form an opinion on: the distinction between Summoning and Calling has been eliminated. I think that that is a good change, as the difference is needlessly confusing for new players.

    Since this is a Paizo product, I'm not going to really dive into the rules until it has had one or two rounds of errata, unless Paizo clearly indicates that they are changing their errata policy (e.g., if they sell or otherwise make available PDFs of old printings, then I'd be willing to just ignore any errata that comes out).

  6. - Top - End - #1236
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Pathfinder 2 is released today. I looked through aonprd to see if it hits one of my pet peeves: the "core rules" of a game should be self-contained, without references to rules in another book. If the "core rules" require the use of rules in another book, then that book should also be part of the core rules.

    D&D does a pretty good job with this. There are three core rulebooks. All three make references to the other two, but you can use all of them without having to refer to any rules outside of those three books. Some other, simpler systems manage with just one core rulebook which is entirely self contained.

    Pathfinder 1e has two core books. The issue is that the name of one of the two core rulebooks is a lie. The name "Core Rulebook" makes it sound like that one book contains the full core rules of Pathfinder, with everything you need to play included. Except, it isn't actually self-contained. The so-called "core rulebook" includes the druid class, which gets an animal companion. But where are the stats for animal companions? They are in another book. If you want to play a druid in Pathfinder, you either need the bestiary, or you need to refer to the online rules. Either way, the so-called "Core Rulebook" isn't a self-contained set of rules.

    There are other examples. The Summon Monster spells are in the Core Rulebook, but the stats for all the creatures you can summon are in the Bestiary. With calling spells it is even worse: not only does the CRB not give stats for the outsiders you can call with Planar Binding, it doesn't even provide a list of what you can call in the first place. That, too, requires referencing the bestiary or another source with the same information.

    For Pathfinder 2, Paizo has again opted to have books with the titles "Core Rulebook" and "Bestiary." I tried to figure out, based on AoN, whether the title of the new "core rulebook" is misleading like the 1e version. I.e., is the 2e Core Rulebook actually self-contained, or does it refer to rules in the Bestiary (or some other book)?

    While there may be some discrepencies between the website and the actual books, it appears to me that 2e has the same issue as 1e. The 2e Core Rulebook contains summoning spells, including Summon Animal. The new PRD seems to indicate that the Core Rulebook doesn't even include a list of what animals are summonable, let alone their stats. The Paizo store page for the Bestiary also says that it contains stats for summonable monsters.

    To be clear, I am not saying that having two separate core rulebooks is a bad thing, I am just bothered by the fact that one of the two core books is advertised as "the" core rulebook, when the other one is necessary to play.

    I don't yet have an opinion on the actual rules of Pathfinder 2e. I read some of the preview blogs from early 2019, but I completely avoided the playtest and I haven't read any of the new preview blogs from this summer. In the brief time I looked at the online rules today, there is one change that I was able to form an opinion on: the distinction between Summoning and Calling has been eliminated. I think that that is a good change, as the difference is needlessly confusing for new players.

    Since this is a Paizo product, I'm not going to really dive into the rules until it has had one or two rounds of errata, unless Paizo clearly indicates that they are changing their errata policy (e.g., if they sell or otherwise make available PDFs of old printings, then I'd be willing to just ignore any errata that comes out).
    This all seems...really pedantic though doesn't it? Just because a book calls itself "core" doesn't mean there aren't other "Core" books. Dungeons and Dragons, which you reference as doing more or less the same thing, suffers the same problems. 3.5 has the "Core" book, in the Player's Guide. It just indicates it is Core Book 1. With the Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide as 2 and three. Paizo is clearly doing the same thing, as you can't really play the game without the Bestiary. So...what's the problem here? Paizo is just doing what D&D and other systems have always done. Split the rules up to sell more books. If you can't play the game without it, it's core. No matter what it says on the cover.

    I should note as well that 3.5 D&D also has the animal companion rules but not the actual animals. You need the Monster Manuel for that.
    Last edited by Razade; 2019-08-02 at 07:06 AM.

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