Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

[Klara Meison]

Here is an interesting game design question that I have been pondering...

How much should the tactical and strategic framing of a fight affect its outcome?

What I mean by that is this:

Consider a group of PCs and a group of hostiles who encounter each other under the following (rather extreme) conditions:

1. The PCs and hostile blunder into each other, and all of them are totally unprepared beyond common day-to-day precautions and had no idea of each others existence.

2. The PCs and the hostiles know they are going to be fighting each other and all show up to the battle buffed to the max and with as many "silver bullet" options as they can muster.

3. Aided by plenty of information, time, planning and powerful equipment, the PCs carefully set up an ambush against the hostiles, who are utterly unaware of the PCs.

4. As 3., but the PCs are getting ambushed.

How different should these fights all look?

In particular, if one side is weaker, how much weaker can they be while still being able to defeat their opposition using advantage that doesn't stem from power-level or wealth. In a similar vein, should a mutual lack of information be a boon to the weaker side, or the stronger one i.e. can an advantage in character power be negated through preparation, or does preparation augment character power beyond an opponent's ability to counteract it given equal opportunity.

>1. The PCs and hostile blunder into each other, and all of them are totally unprepared beyond common day-to-day precautions and had no idea of each others existence.

>2. The PCs and the hostiles know they are going to be fighting each other and all show up to the battle buffed to the max and with as many "silver bullet" options as they can muster.

Given that in Pathfinder "common day-to-day precautions" may include "Ask your 28 pet imps to use their Commune to get 24-168 questions about what would happen today", I am not sure what's the difference.

[Snow-blind]

>1. The PCs and hostile blunder into each other, and all of them are totally unprepared beyond common day-to-day precautions and had no idea of each others existence.

>2. The PCs and the hostiles know they are going to be fighting each other and all show up to the battle buffed to the max and with as many "silver bullet" options as they can muster.

Given that in Pathfinder "common day-to-day precautions" may include "Ask your 28 pet imps to use their Commune to get 24-168 questions about what would happen today", I am not sure what's the difference.

Most PC parties don't do that because it would be considered abusive and game breaking. On the contrary, plenty of PC groups do minimal scouting or intelligence gathering, and are very likely to blunder into a fight with no warning. The distinction matters a lot.

[Ashiel]

What is your favorite meal of the day? Mine is breakfast. If I could eat breakfast for every meal of the day, I would die a happier man.

Whichever meal I'm currently eating.

[Ashiel]

Here is an interesting game design question that I have been pondering...

How much should the tactical and strategic framing of a fight affect its outcome?

What I mean by that is this:

Consider a group of PCs and a group of hostiles who encounter each other under the following (rather extreme) conditions:

1. The PCs and hostile blunder into each other, and all of them are totally unprepared beyond common day-to-day precautions and had no idea of each others existence.

2. The PCs and the hostiles know they are going to be fighting each other and all show up to the battle buffed to the max and with as many "silver bullet" options as they can muster.

3. Aided by plenty of information, time, planning and powerful equipment, the PCs carefully set up an ambush against the hostiles, who are utterly unaware of the PCs.

4. As 3., but the PCs are getting ambushed.

How different should these fights all look?

Generally speaking I think that strong preparation makes a bit difference in how a fight goes down. I've seen my players SWAT-team encounters that were very hard and clean them up very effectively. I've seen them do the same with encounters that would have been more or less impossible and succeed from much the same. I think that's a good thing but trying to pin down how much it should matter is pretty hard to gauge since the value of information varies depending on what you're encountering (knowing you're fighting a werewolf lets you prepare the appropriate weapons, but knowing all but one of your enemies are going to be illusions is a different story ).

In particular, if one side is weaker, how much weaker can they be while still being able to defeat their opposition using advantage that doesn't stem from power-level or wealth. In a similar vein, should a mutual lack of information be a boon to the weaker side, or the stronger one i.e. can an advantage in character power be negated through preparation, or does preparation augment character power beyond an opponent's ability to counteract it given equal opportunity.

Again, I think it varies depending on what sorts of shenanigans each side is going to be getting up to and how beneficial their tricks are against unprepared foes. For example, against an ill prepared group, things like darkness SLAs can turn an otherwise trivial encounter for PCs into a really harsh encounter even if their foes are otherwise trivial. Meanwhile, enemies that might normally be really terrible might be trivial if you can counter their main shtick.

That said, I think it generally favors the guys who are have better gear and stats because they have more of a chance to adapt before getting dismantled.

[Rynjin]

They have a gaming channel?

Yeah, a pretty good one actually. Their Let's Plays are usually really fun to watch.

Recently in particular, their Pokemon Leaf Green Nuzlocke (completed), Soul Silver Nuzlocke (ongoing), and Kingdom Hearts streams are great. Their drunk streams are fun to watch too if you don't mind loads of deaths in Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3.

Lanipator (Vegeta and Piccolo, primarily. Owner of TFS), Kirran (does writing, and played the Big Ghetti Star in the Cell 2 Revengeance movie. I think he's also their community manager), and Grant (Kirran's friend...that's basically it. He's cool though) are the primary ones who do stuff.

Good way to get your TFS fix between episodes of DBZA and Hellsing Abridged, and a head and shoulders above most of the competition in the Youtube gaming channel scene IMHO.

[Ashiel]

Yeah, a pretty good one actually. Their Let's Plays are usually really fun to watch.

Recently in particular, their Pokemon Leaf Green Nuzlocke (completed), Soul Silver Nuzlocke (ongoing), and Kingdom Hearts streams are great. Their drunk streams are fun to watch too if you don't mind loads of deaths in Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3.

Lanipator (Vegeta and Piccolo, primarily. Owner of TFS), Kirran (does writing, and played the Big Ghetti Star in the Cell 2 Revengeance movie. I think he's also their community manager), and Grant (Kirran's friend...that's basically it. He's cool though) are the primary ones who do stuff.

Good way to get your TFS fix between episodes of DBZA and Hellsing Abridged, and a head and shoulders above most of the competition in the Youtube gaming channel scene IMHO.

I'll have to check that out sometime. Sounds like fun.

[137beth]

I am blessed to have the means to travel to many of them. After the airline delays back in August, we got vouchers for our next flight, so this trip cost about 5 bucks with reward points. The hotel was thankfully split with another con-goer at about 150 and early reg was 20. So ~180 bucks to come out here, plus the cost of food.

I've never been to a gaming convention. Not enough time, and honestly, I'm not sure I'd like it: I prefer to game with people as a part-time hobby, and I feel like I'd be too focused on gaming at a convention for my own enjoyment.

On the other hand, I might be willing to go to a convention if it meant meeting Ashiel and/or TriOmegaZero in person.

[Klara Meison]

Why is your oots avatar a planetar?

[Talonhawke]

Talonhawke I'm back and stop moving

[Tels]

How often do you pull all-nighters? I'm currently doing one 'cause I have an over two-page letter to get sent off in the morning.

[Kryzbyn]

I was up until 3 am trying to get 30 world quests done in WOW, does that count?

[Lemmy]

Why is your oots avatar a planetar?

It's cute and powerful... Does she need any more reason?

PS: BTW, I love how you added a curly mustache to your avatar!

PPS: I use so many emojis... think I might have a problem.

[Klara Meison]

It's cute and powerful... Does she need any more reason?

PS: BTW, I love how you added a curly mustache to your avatar!

PPS: I use so many emojis... think I might have a problem.

That is because this is actually my evil twin.

[Kryzbyn]

Should be a goatee, then? ;)

[Ashiel]

Why is your oots avatar a planetar?

The main reasons are...

• It was the most appealing avatar for me on the list at the time.
• I really like angels in D&D and see them as my iconic good outsiders.
• Angels hold a certain significance to me due to IRL experiences.

While the 1st isn't very interesting, and the 3rd reason is kind of a can of worms that would end up going down the rabbit whole of spiritual experiences, the 2nd I think stands to make a decent D&D tangent. That is the nature of angels as outsiders wearing the "good" badges, so I'm going to talk about that here a bit.

As framed in the D&D I've grown up with, the three primary good-aligned outsiders are Archons, Angels, and Azatas.

• Archons who are typically Lawful Good.
• Azatas who are typically Chaotic Good.
• Angels who are typically Neutral Good or just "Good".

I think angels have appealed to me as the quintessential good outsiders because they have no predisposition for Order or Chaos, their predisposition is one of simple Good. And it is the Good and Evil alignments that I care the most about and enjoy toying with when telling stories as a GM or creating characters as a player. In hindsight that shouldn't really be surprising considering law vs chaos tends to present itself in paradoxical and stupid forms in D&D, such as the logical fallacies of Inevitables, or the lack of meaningful persona of Proteans, while Good and Evil are far easier to relate to and - within the definitions given in alignment - are easier to understand.

Angels for the most part appear as human-like creatures as well and these similarities are both subtly encouraging as an icon of perfection, and subtly discomforting when their perfection is found to be flawed. In some ways, angels and the notion of fallen angels serve to contrast the high and lows of ourselves in spirit, in much the same way that orcs represent the vices of humanity in a cultural sense.

Even when they break from their Good alignments, most fallen angels are understood to still on some level be angels, and their reasons for falling are often presented as pragmatic or overly zealous, often understandable, often relatable, and often not wholly without some remnants of their former righteousness still manifesting and muddying the waters of themselves.

Angels are often ideal outsiders to use as guides, guardians, and messengers because of their various strengths and apparent wisdom. Likewise, being unaffiliated with Law or Chaos, they're a suitable catch-all ally for good heroes and characters in general. They're of course not the only outsiders that fall into these roles (I've even used Djinn for similar things in the past), but when I think about good outsiders that are going to aid PCs, angels are usually on the forefront of my mind.

On Outsiders in My Games
While angels are a favorite outsider of mine, they're often given less screen time than other outsiders. Given their high CRs, most are treated as sort of quasi-deities or demigods in my settings, and I use a very wide range of other outsiders for various purposes. I also try to avoid portraying outsiders as caricatures and more as powerful but intelligent spiritual beings. For example, in my games, evil outsiders don't instantly want to destroy everything. Pit fiends could almost be described as classy with a sort of faux honor born out of their own self respect. Succubi are quite capricious but not unreasonable, quite suited for sowing discord or acting as an unlikely ally in some cases where their interests coincide. I include both Hindu and Zoroastrian elements to Asuras (something I was disappointed with in the Pathfinder depiction). Spirits such as Djinn may act as guardians and guides for people or individuals. Most, somehow, tend to be relatable.

[Ashiel]

How often do you pull all-nighters? I'm currently doing one 'cause I have an over two-page letter to get sent off in the morning.

It depends on if I have work the next day. My sleep schedule as it relates to working is probably one of the biggest obstacles to getting stuff done at an efficient pace. My schedule shifts around a lot so I often have to re-align my sleep pattern with only a day in between, which I've mostly adapted to but it tends to mean I spend a fair amount of time in bed going to sleep to make sure I'm at least fairly rested before going back to work.

I'm getting a new job in a few weeks though unless something weird happens. I should have a more reasonable schedule when that's the case, which I'm hoping will mean giving me more time to work on my projects and GM a game or two for my group (who have said they miss me having time for gaming ).

When I land a few days off in a row, all nighters tend to happen with fair frequency.

[Klara Meison]

Should be a goatee, then? ;)

My drawing skills aren't sufficient for that. Even the moustache has been photoshoped in as a separate picture I found on google.

[Ashiel]

My drawing skills aren't sufficient for that. Even the moustache has been photoshoped in as a separate picture I found on google.

I think it seems pretty classic in a mustache twirling **** Dastardly sort of way.

EDIT: I did not see that filter coming. I wonder if the filter butcher's poor **** Van Dyke too.

[Rynjin]

I'll admit, I was actually expecting it to come out as **** Van ****. I've seen that a few places with overly strict word filters.

Also mustachified.com is a good site for making silly facial hair changes. The original avatar I was going to use was an image of Franken Stein from Soul Eater with a top hat and goatee/mustache (I use it elsewhere) but it seems like it was too big for this site and just came out a white box, and I'm too lazy to edit it.

Edit: And this site has a minimum post limit for posting links, apparently.

[Ashiel]

I'll admit, I was actually expecting it to come out as **** Van ****. I've seen that a few places with overly strict word filters.

Also mustachified.com is a good site for making silly facial hair changes. The original avatar I was going to use was an image of Franken Stein from Soul Eater with a top hat and goatee/mustache (I use it elsewhere) but it seems like it was too big for this site and just came out a white box, and I'm too lazy to edit it.

Edit: And this site has a minimum post limit for posting links, apparently.

Yeah, auto-filters are funny. Speaking of Frankenstein, I recently started watching Penny Dreadful on Netflix. I'm only a few episodes in but it looks like it might be interesting.

[Zilrax]

You read dis webcomic I posted for you earlier? If so, what you think? http://www.valsalia.com/comic/prologue/01/

[Rynjin]

Yeah, auto-filters are funny. Speaking of Frankenstein, I recently started watching Penny Dreadful on Netflix. I'm only a few episodes in but it looks like it might be interesting.

It was a good show, though the ending was...eh.

[Ashiel]

You read dis webcomic I posted for you earlier? If so, what you think? http://www.valsalia.com/comic/prologue/01/

Not yet but I bookmarked it. :)

It was a good show, though the ending was...eh.

Hmmmm...I haven't gotten there yet. I'm like maybe 3-4 episodes in I think.

[TOZ]

On the other hand, I might be willing to go to a convention if it meant meeting Ashiel and/or TriOmegaZero in person.

I try to be pretty open about my travel plans to facilitate people meeting me.

[DracoknightZero]

Hmm, on the topic of outsiders: Personally i was thinking of having a "Hirachy" of the outsiders where you have the Law and Chaos as "lesser" deities and then you have the neutral kind as the "true" good/evil as their being is not being split on the topic and not too extreme on the side of law nor chaos as it would prevent them to do the most good/evil.

Like on the evil side you have Devils too obsessed by the contracts and their lawful nature to do be effecient where the situation require chaos, and the chaotic side is too chaotic to get anything properly organized. So then you will have the middle ground as the proper leaders as they herd the chaotics and bind the lawfuls to their will.

[Tels]

If you haven't watched the anime Food Wars yet, you should. Absolutely hilarious.

[Klara Meison]

Should be a goatee, then? ;)

By popular request, I added a goatee to my profile picture. What do you think?

[Tels]

By popular request, I added a goatee to my profile picture. What do you think?

My thoughts.

[Kryzbyn]

By popular request, I added a goatee to my profile picture. What do you think?

LOL very nice.
Evil Spock should have tad a twirl mustache.

[Klara Meison]

The main reasons are...

• It was the most appealing avatar for me on the list at the time.
• I really like angels in D&D and see them as my iconic good outsiders.
• Angels hold a certain significance to me due to IRL experiences.

While the 1st isn't very interesting, and the 3rd reason is kind of a can of worms that would end up going down the rabbit whole of spiritual experiences, the 2nd I think stands to make a decent D&D tangent. That is the nature of angels as outsiders wearing the "good" badges, so I'm going to talk about that here a bit.

As framed in the D&D I've grown up with, the three primary good-aligned outsiders are Archons, Angels, and Azatas.

• Archons who are typically Lawful Good.
• Azatas who are typically Chaotic Good.
• Angels who are typically Neutral Good or just "Good".

I think angels have appealed to me as the quintessential good outsiders because they have no predisposition for Order or Chaos, their predisposition is one of simple Good. And it is the Good and Evil alignments that I care the most about and enjoy toying with when telling stories as a GM or creating characters as a player. In hindsight that shouldn't really be surprising considering law vs chaos tends to present itself in paradoxical and stupid forms in D&D, such as the logical fallacies of Inevitables, or the lack of meaningful persona of Proteans, while Good and Evil are far easier to relate to and - within the definitions given in alignment - are easier to understand.

Angels for the most part appear as human-like creatures as well and these similarities are both subtly encouraging as an icon of perfection, and subtly discomforting when their perfection is found to be flawed. In some ways, angels and the notion of fallen angels serve to contrast the high and lows of ourselves in spirit, in much the same way that orcs represent the vices of humanity in a cultural sense.

Even when they break from their Good alignments, most fallen angels are understood to still on some level be angels, and their reasons for falling are often presented as pragmatic or overly zealous, often understandable, often relatable, and often not wholly without some remnants of their former righteousness still manifesting and muddying the waters of themselves.

Angels are often ideal outsiders to use as guides, guardians, and messengers because of their various strengths and apparent wisdom. Likewise, being unaffiliated with Law or Chaos, they're a suitable catch-all ally for good heroes and characters in general. They're of course not the only outsiders that fall into these roles (I've even used Djinn for similar things in the past), but when I think about good outsiders that are going to aid PCs, angels are usually on the forefront of my mind.

On Outsiders in My Games
While angels are a favorite outsider of mine, they're often given less screen time than other outsiders. Given their high CRs, most are treated as sort of quasi-deities or demigods in my settings, and I use a very wide range of other outsiders for various purposes. I also try to avoid portraying outsiders as caricatures and more as powerful but intelligent spiritual beings. For example, in my games, evil outsiders don't instantly want to destroy everything. Pit fiends could almost be described as classy with a sort of faux honor born out of their own self respect. Succubi are quite capricious but not unreasonable, quite suited for sowing discord or acting as an unlikely ally in some cases where their interests coincide. I include both Hindu and Zoroastrian elements to Asuras (something I was disappointed with in the Pathfinder depiction). Spirits such as Djinn may act as guardians and guides for people or individuals. Most, somehow, tend to be relatable.

You know, you really should read Worm. One of the main characters there looks like this, and encompasses a very unique perspective that book has on what is effectively Outsiders of that world. Or, at least, I don't think I have ever seen something like that anywhere else.