OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Whether he's slaughtering dozens of sentinent beings or simply trolling his teammates for the lulz, Belkar is and probably always will be comedy gold.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

I really like this strip. Definitely my favorite in a long time.

[Keltest]

And there I thought it was just Larping for*nerds.

people who don't want to admit they are

I thought Larping was larping for nerds.

[lenon3579]

Again!!!

Again!!!

I love repetitions!!!

[Darth Paul]

Again!!!

Again!!!

I love repetitions!!!

Until that moment when it's just gone too far...



Have we reached that moment yet?

[8BitNinja]

Whether he's slaughtering dozens of sentinent beings or simply trolling his teammates for the lulz, Belkar is and probably always will be comedy gold.

This should have been on the cover of the Belkar short story.

[danielxcutter]

This should have been on the cover of the Belkar short story.

I presume that's a compliment. Can I add that to my sig?

EDIT: Fixed typo.

[Kantaki]

I thought Larping was larping for nerds.

No, no, larping is rpg-ing for nerds.

[Dr.Zero]

Obligitory: "Belkar's going to die here".

You're joking, but I must say that I'm starting to get apprehensive.

Logic dictates that Belkar will die only against some main villain, maybe even only near the end of the story. After all, this story is about the OOTS, and Belkar is a full member of it. Moreover he still needs to complete his character development (and maybe doing a heroic sacrifice to end in the Chaotic Neutral zone, I'm totally expecting to read a line like: "Weird... why doesn't this clasp...hurt me anymore? X_X" [1])

But, on the other hand: anticlimactic, surprising and all that stuff comes to mind.

[1] Yes, I know, being so eager of killing seems Evil. On the other hand, Haley has shown exactly the same reaction in being able to sneak attack the giants, so...

[Peelee]

No, no, larping is rpg-ing for nerds.

Yeah, and they better stick to it. I hate when nerds try to play Dungeons and Dragons with me.

[Kish]

I presume that's a complement. Can I add that to my sig?

Complement: Goes well with.
Compliment: Praise, commendation, or admiration.

[Hamste]

Complement: Goes well with.
Compliment: Praise, commendation, or admiration.

Complex complaints complement compliments.

[E-102 Hanako]

Yes, I know, being so eager of killing seems Evil. On the other hand, Haley has shown exactly the same reaction in being able to sneak attack the giants, so...

If killing or a passion for war alone rendered someone automatically Evil, every party member barring Roy and possibly Elan would be Evil-aligned. In fact, most adventuring parties in any tabletop game would likely become an Evil party given death and its subsidiaries are inevitabilities of any d20 system. Combat's so ensconced into D&D and D&D-likes to where fighting and passion for it are a universal constant.

Belkar's primary modus operandi screams Chaotic Evil in big, bold letters. One thing to note is that he isn't having an actual redemption arc, because his gambit is "fake it until you make it," which I've seen doesn't actually work. I do agree with his philosophy, however; people don't just change on a dime. It takes a while for any change to sit well. Going by what we've seen and what he's said, any chance of being not-Evil on his end is not happening for a long while. It took Roy learning to control his aberrant behaviour to stop him from being a homicidal maniac a-la Johnny.

You're joking, but I must say that I'm starting to get apprehensive.

Logic dictates that Belkar will die only against some main villain, maybe even only near the end of the story.

There are very few people who qualify as "main villains" left: Redcloak, Advanced Durkon 2nd Edition, the IFCC, and Xykon. Every other villain has either been demoted to being an instrument in these main four's plans, or wound up crossing them and got brutally decimated (when otherwise not being roped into the plan by sheer force or necromancy) or crossed the Order of the Stick to have their character arcs end by being written out of the story (Tarquin is not a main villain, and never was).

It's perfectly reasonable for Belkar to die here, given his character arc's been satisfied as much as anyone else's. The Oracle foreshadowed his death before the end of the in-story year, so if he dies against the Frost Giants (which is still a possibility, apprehension or no) the death is likeliest to stick. Another thing to note is that nearly everyone else's prophecies (barring Elan's) has come true already in some fashion. Durkon's returning home posthumously, Elan's happy ending have been guaranteed during multiple instances (although it was noted as specifically his happy ending - nothing accounted for Haley necessarily).

I am well aware that Chaotic Evil characters can garner sympathy and admiration (I'm a Thog fan, so...). That doesn't necessarily mean they'll stop being Chaotic Evil ever. Belkar's form of Chaotic Evil is just more refined, due to him being rather clever (low WIS and Will notwithstanding).

Well, guess on which finger(s) he wears the ring(s).

Does this guessing game come best two out of three?

Where is Mr. Scruffy? BELKAR FORGOT MR. SCRUFFY! Clearly this means he is going to die.

Belkar was without Mr. Scruffy for a majority of the Godsmoot proper, and yet remained alive. He was additionally without Bloodfeast. He's likely kept them still on the ship because it minimizes their chances of dying.

[Ruck]

Belkar's primary modus operandi screams Chaotic Evil in big, bold letters. One thing to note is that he isn't having an actual redemption arc, because his gambit is "fake it until you make it," which I've seen doesn't actually work. I do agree with his philosophy, however; people don't just change on a dime. It takes a while for any change to sit well. Going by what we've seen and what he's said, any chance of being not-Evil on his end is not happening for a long while. It took Roy learning to control his aberrant behaviour to stop him from being a homicidal maniac a-la Johnny.

I really disagree that he isn't having an actual redemption arc. He may have started out by acting like a good teammate in order to continue killing at his pleasure, but it's undeniable that Mr. Scruffy has caused him to develop empathy, and I think Durkon's sacrifice to save him had a serious impact on him, which even he hasn't been able to articulate yet.

[zimmerwald1915]

I really disagree that he isn't having an actual redemption arc. He may have started out by acting like a good teammate in order to continue killing at his pleasure, but it's undeniable that Mr. Scruffy has caused him to develop empathy, and I think Durkon's sacrifice to save him had a serious impact on him, which even he hasn't been able to articulate yet.

None of which amounts to a "redemption arc." Character development does not necessarily amount to redemption.

[8BitNinja]

I presume that's a compliment. Can I add that to my sig?

EDIT: Fixed typo.

Go right ahead.

[LuisDantas]

None of which amounts to a "redemption arc." Character development does not necessarily amount to redemption.

Personally, I don't think Belkar is at all interesting as a character, nor do I think he can be salvaged from the built-in character damage.

Particularly given how unwilling to learn he has always been. His popularity puzzles me to no end.

[Kish]

I think redemption is, to some extent, in the eye of the beholder.

i.e., I'm unlikely to be sorry when Belkar dies no matter how heroically he dies, because I'm not going to forget Solt Lorkyug or unnamed people in the bar fight in On the Origins of PCs or (etc.), but I don't expect that to be anything but an extreme minority position.

Similarly, I would be amazed if I ever feel the tiniest drop of sympathy for Vaarsuvius again.

[Jasdoif]

None of which amounts to a "redemption arc." Character development does not necessarily amount to redemption.

Yeah. Even if a redemption arc for Belkar is in the cards, we aren't at a point where it's started yet.

[hroþila]

Basic empathy isn't redemption, but if there were a redemption arc for Belkar, surely the process of acquiring said basic empathy would have to be considered part of the process and hence of the arc, since he started off with no empathy whatsoever?

[Dr.Zero]

Redemption, as defined in Soon's speech, is something required to return to be a paladin, the paragon (theoretically) of the lawful good alignment and to be accepted in that role.

To stop the clasp from hurting, we need only an alignment shift to neutral, which may by far easier to reach.

I understand that going with our moral standards ( a ladder evil->neutral->good, where good is at the top) is the natural way to judge things for us, but D&D alignment is different!

There are planes and gods for every single alignment. And they all have the same importance.

So, if Roy was close to an alignment shift from lawful to neutral for one single very unlawful action (abandoning Elan), the same -for a simple matter of symmetry, since all the alignments here have the same importance- should be possible looking the things from the other side of the alignment pool.

(Anyway showing empathy for the two lizardmen -pardon, lizardfolk, I don't want to offend the lizardfeminists- was already the first step in that direction, for me).

Edit: ninj'ed about the empathy. About redemption and alignment shift, I already explained my point.

[Jasdoif]

Basic empathy isn't redemption, but if there were a redemption arc for Belkar, surely the process of acquiring said basic empathy would have to be considered part of the process and hence of the arc, since he started off with no empathy whatsoever?

Belkar's empathy with Mr. Scruffy does not like seem like part of a redemption arc, no.

[Peelee]

If Belkar ever actually desires redemption, I'll count his redemption arc has started. Whether or not it succeeds is another question, but wanting it is pretty much the very first criteria.

[hroþila]

Belkar's empathy with Mr. Scruffy does not like seem like part of a redemption arc, no.

Not only with Mr. Scruffy, but also with the bounty hunters.

I don't think there *is* a redemption arc going, just to be clear. But if there ever is one, acquiring the capacity to feel empathy would be a necessary part of that process. Without it, no one would ever want redemption (which, again, and just to be clear, Belkar doesn't seem to want at this point).

[8BitNinja]

If Belkar ever actually desires redemption, I'll count his redemption arc has started. Whether or not it succeeds is another question, but wanting it is pretty much the very first criteria.

Does Mr. Scruffy = Redemption?

[JumboWheat01]

Does Mr. Scruffy = Redemption?

Mr. Scruffy is to Belkar as Boo is to Minsc, a figure of authority to prevent the other from being a rampaging thing of rampage.

[Kantaki]

Mr. Scruffy is to Belkar as Boo is to Minsc, a figure of authority to prevent the other from being a rampaging thing of rampage.

So they basically are somewhat more useful versions of Jiminy Cricket?
On account of them being able to do more than giving useless advice.
Like helping in combat. Or actively doing something about their minions behaviour I mean.

[Ruck]

Maybe we're splitting hairs on what "redemption arc" means. I do believe the arc of Belkar's character has started to trend in a positive direction, as he develops traits like empathy and loyalty, though I don't expect him to be Good-aligned or anything like that by the end of the story.

[ti'esar]

Whether Belkar is actually undergoing a "redemption arc" or not, I think that Ruck's original larger point - that it's now clear he's not just completely faking character development - is certainly correct.

[Jasdoif]

I don't think there *is* a redemption arc going, just to be clear. But if there ever is one, acquiring the capacity to feel empathy would be a necessary part of that process. Without it, no one would ever want redemption (which, again, and just to be clear, Belkar doesn't seem to want at this point).

I think we're almost on the same page....The capacity to feel empathy would be a prerequisite of a redemption arc. It'd have to be acquired before a redemption arc, not during one.

It's an important distinction because Belkar's come a long way simply to be considered for having a redemption arc. There's a definite relation between the two involved, but a redemption arc isn't necessary to validate the empathy he's already attained; and conflating the two could undercut the progress he's made to get that far.