The Godsmoot

[Kareasint]

I never got an answer to why someone said the Dark One was a demigod. Now I want an answer to where the idea that the elven gods are demigods comes from, too.

I'm not sure if the ascended treehuggers got full deity-status. At least some of the original gods certainly aren't and neither seem to be the dwarven king and giant deities. Who might or might not gotten their status post-mortem.
So it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that the upstarts don't get to be full deities from the beginning.
DO is different because he has his own club. And no one that makes him share.
On the other hand it reduces his chances to vote on stuff drastically.

Spoiler: S.O.D. Page 40

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Kish has a point. The Elven deities and the Dark One were mentioned to have full deity status during Redcloak's lore explanation to Xykon.

[Kantaki]

Spoiler: S.O.D. Page 40

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Kish has a point. The Elven deities and the Dark One were mentioned to have full deity status during Redcloak's lore explanation to Xykon.

Well, it says they became gods. It doesn't say if they have full deity status.
I'm not sure the distinction between god and demi-god is big/important enough that someone like Redcloak would make it -especially when explaining it to a layman like Xykon.

And even if they are powerful enough to qualify as full deities it is still a possibility that they count as demi-gods for the purpose of voting.
But I don't know. Just thought I faintly remember something along those lines. Might be that I'm mixing something up.

[Jay R]

Well, it says they became gods. It doesn't say if they have full deity status.
I'm not sure the distinction between god and demi-god is big/important enough that someone like Redcloak would make it -especially when explaining it to a layman like Xykon.

And even if they are powerful enough to qualify as full deities it is still a possibility that they count as demi-gods for the purpose of voting.
But I don't know. Just thought I faintly remember something along those lines. Might be that I'm mixing something up.

This is a story, not a game. Any detail not necessary to the plot (or to a joke) will not be known - even (quite possibly) by Rich.

[Kish]

I'm gathering that the answer is, "There's no actual indication of such, it's just an assumption."

[Rift_Wolf]

I should say I'm surprised that another Redcloak at the Godsmoot threads opened up at this point. Okay, let's metagame this;
If the Dark One was to vote, he'd likely vote for destruction as then he'd have an equal turn in creating the next world. Or he might not to save, as he might be able to negotiate a better deal once his High Priest controls the Snarl. Either way, voting is irrelevant; it makes more sense to continue his master plan rather than having his High Priest waste time voting in a system where his voice, even if it's recognised at all, is drowned out by the Old Boy Network.
The options are:
1) Dark One wasn't aware of the vote (most likely)
2) Dark One was aware, and would vote destroy. In which case the whole Godsmoot is invalid; A) if they destroy the world, he'll get the silver prize of an equal turn in World 3.0. B) If the Godsmoot saves the world, it gives him more time to secure the gold prize of a better-than-equal turn in world creation.
3) Dark One was aware, and would vote save. Sending Redcloak to make this vote would be a waste of time; A) if the rest of the Godsmoot voted save, you get answer 2B, and the vote has wasted time in securing the Snarl. B) If the Godsmoot voted destroy, he still gets silver prize, but his Priest's vote wasted time in securing the Snarl, which even this late in the game would've been a clincher.
4) Dark One is aware, but can't vote; unlike Hel, he's not affiliated with a Pantheon. In which case, his High Priest should continue securing the Snarl, as this supercedes the Godsmoot.
5) Dark One was aware, and could vote in the Northern Pantheon, and was in league with Hel, and could get his High Priest to the temple without his absence being noticed by an epic Lich Sorcerer: I mean it's possible, but why bother? Bargaining with Hel puts him at a disadvantage if he succeeds, and nothing's accomplished if he loses. It's bronze prize: destroy world and get turn in next world creation, but indebted to New Queen of the North? Bleh. Maybe if he had no other option, but oh my goodness it turns out he's actively reaching for gold prize AS WE SPEAK.

I think that's all bases covered.

[Jay R]

I should say I'm surprised that another Redcloak at the Godsmoot threads opened up at this point. Okay, let's metagame this;
If the Dark One was to vote, ...

If the Dark One is allowed to vote, then he's achieved his goal of equal godhood, his quest (and therefore Redcloak's) is accomplished, and the entire strip is over.

The entire plot is based on the fact that the gods don't give the Dark One the perks of the other gods.

[Jasdoif]

If the Dark One is allowed to vote, then he's achieved his goal of equal godhood, his quest (and therefore Redcloak's) is accomplished, and the entire strip is over.

I don't suppose you can prove that the Dark One would actually settle for equality while he still has the chance to put himself above the other gods?

[hroþila]

Another possibility is that the Dark One honestly regards his Plan B as, well, a plan B which is vastly inferior to Plan A. And that he's sincerely concerned about his followers, so getting equal footing with the other gods wouldn't be enough as long as Plan A was on the table, unless that translated directly into an immediate and tangible improvement for the goblinoids.

[Jay R]

I don't suppose you can prove that the Dark One would actually settle for equality while he still has the chance to put himself above the other gods?

I guess I overstated my point. Let me try again.

The last time he went to the gods to talk, they betrayed him.

They wouldn't invite him to come speak and vote. He wouldn't attend a meeting.

[Keltest]

I guess I overstated my point. Let me try again.

The last time he went to the gods to talk, they betrayed him.

They wouldn't invite him to come speak and vote. He wouldn't attend a meeting.

Youre thinking of when he was a mortal. There has not been an equivalent meeting among the gods, yet. Now, most of the gods don't like him, at all, but he does have a couple of allies, and its in his interests to play ball with them until plan A happens so that he doesn't get shunned should plan B become necessary.

[Jay R]

Youre thinking of when he was a mortal. There has not been an equivalent meeting among the gods, yet. Now, most of the gods don't like him, at all, but he does have a couple of allies, and its in his interests to play ball with them until plan A happens so that he doesn't get shunned should plan B become necessary.

None of which changes the fact that he isn't accepted as an equal by the gods in the three pantheons, and he won't be given a vote.

[Goblin_Priest]

If the Dark One is allowed to vote, then he's achieved his goal of equal godhood, his quest (and therefore Redcloak's) is accomplished, and the entire strip is over.

The entire plot is based on the fact that the gods don't give the Dark One the perks of the other gods.

His quest isn't to achieve equal godhood, it's to achieve equality between goblinoids and standard humanoids.

Which, mechanically speaking, I don't quite get. Sure, many monstrous humanoids were made really weak and imbalanced, but if I remember correctly goblins don't have a LA, and despite the lore making them weak and miserable, are statistically superior to player races as far as I'm concerned. Of course, in 3.5, hobgoblins and bugbears get wrecked by their LA, though, but goblins have seemed to be the central part of the goblinoid struggle so far (even if the army is now mostly hobgoblin, because that's just the result of a goblin usurping a nation for his own ends, and not that nation rising up for itself).

[Peelee]

His quest isn't to achieve equal godhood, it's to achieve equality between goblinoids and standard humanoids.

Which, mechanically speaking, I don't quite get. Sure, many monstrous humanoids were made really weak and imbalanced, but if I remember correctly goblins don't have a LA, and despite the lore making them weak and miserable, are statistically superior to player races as far as I'm concerned.

Can you justify this? Mechanically, goblins are halflings with an extra -2 to Cha and fewer racial bonuses. Only benefit is they get darkvision. I'd call them on par, at best. And thats for the ones with actual class levels.

[Kish]

Goblin characters possess the following racial traits.

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

If you actually, seriously think that compares favorably to humans...okay. You get the honor of being able to reply to the Dark One's "THOSE RULES ARE CRAP AND YOU KNOW IT!" with "No, I don't know it." His position remains the one I can comprehend, not yours, I'm afraid.

[goodpeople25]

Well considering goblins aren't small here do we really know they still have the exact same stats? I could see OotS goblins having no str penalty. (Maybe with a loss of the ride bonus? have we seen the riding thing in comic?)

Still underpowered of course (though at that point I think it's more of not having as many or good advantages than being disadvantaged, and I think alot of the advantages of the non human options are situational, and from what I hear comparing races in 3.5 to humans is pretty unfair at least in core) and he is still the God of goblinoids and I think the others do have an LA and appear unchanged. While not superior in the slightest (and involving speculation due to the size change) the Goblins stats compared to the other goblinoids are intresting to think about.

[Kish]

and from what I hear comparing races in 3.5 to humans is pretty unfair at least in core)

You'll have to explain that.

[Emanick]

Can you justify this? Mechanically, goblins are halflings with an extra -2 to Cha and fewer racial bonuses. Only benefit is they get darkvision. I'd call them on par, at best. And thats for the ones with actual class levels.

You're talking to a Goblin Priest. I think expecting complete impartiality is a little unfair.

[Goblin_Priest]

If you actually, seriously think that compares favorably to humans...okay. You get the honor of being able to reply to the Dark One's "THOSE RULES ARE CRAP AND YOU KNOW IT!" with "No, I don't know it." His position remains the one I can comprehend, not yours, I'm afraid.

Yea, I guess I'd have to retract that part of my comment. It's been quite a while since I played 3.5... Pathfinder has clouded my memory. I remember playing some goblin characters back in the days, even a goblin... sorcerer!

I thought 3.5 goblins also had that +4 dex... So yes, I concede, goblins are sub-par, and definitely inferior to humans. However, as far as I know, they remain the only small creatures that seems remotely playable that has a 30ft movement speed.

Compared to halflings, sure they get -2cha. But they move faster. Their skill bonuses are +4 instead of +2. Darkvision. I'd say they are at least on par with halflings. If not better, at least very close to tied.

[Peelee]

Yea, I guess I'd have to retract that part of my comment. It's been quite a while since I played 3.5... Pathfinder has clouded my memory. I remember playing some goblin characters back in the days, even a goblin... sorcerer!

I thought 3.5 goblins also had that +4 dex... So yes, I concede, goblins are sub-par, and definitely inferior to humans. However, as far as I know, they remain the only small creatures that seems remotely playable that has a 30ft movement speed.

Compared to halflings, sure they get -2cha. But they move faster. Their skill bonuses are +4 instead of +2. Darkvision. I'd say they are at least on par with halflings. If not better, at least very close to tied.

Yeah, but that +4 goes to all of 2 skills. Plus dark vision and an extra 10 ft move per round, as opposed to +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks, +1 racial bonus on all saving throws, +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear (which stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general), +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings, and +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.

Our opinions on the difference in value clearly differs.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, but that +4 goes to all of 2 skills. Plus dark vision and an extra 10 ft move per round, as opposed to +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks, +1 racial bonus on all saving throws, +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear (which stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general), +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings, and +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.

Our opinions on the difference in value clearly differs.

Yeah. I mean, a goblin's racial features aren't horrible, it's not like they're half-orcs or hobgoblins....But it's difficult to get use out of that 30ft land speed and that +4 to Ride checks at the same time, what with moving at your mount's speed. And to get use out of that +4 to Move Silently and that +4 to Ride checks at the same time, what with the mount actually the one moving. And, well, being able to move as fast as most any Medium playable race isn't much of a bonus, and being a Small creature means their mounts are going to be Medium instead of Large with all that entails, so that's effectively a penalty when using that +4 to Ride.

There's just too much conflict between the abilities to have good specialization, and the abilities themselves are too niche to have good versatility.

[Kish]

You're talking to a Goblin Priest. I think expecting complete impartiality is a little unfair.

I'd expect a Goblin Priest to agree with the Dark One, "Yeah, we really did get shafted!" But apparently he's a Goblin Priest who wandered over from Pathfinder and really likes Ride checks.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'd expect a Goblin Priest to agree with the Dark One, "Yeah, we really did get shafted!" But apparently he's a Goblin Priest who wandered over from Pathfinder and really likes Ride checks.

Hehe, okay, I agree with Maglubiyet the Dark One.

[hroþila]

Mechanics aside, SoD also suggest the goblinoids and other monster races were put on the edges of civilization, on the worst soil, as a ploy to force them to turn to raiding the older races, thus giving those other races justification and motive to kill them for XP. I think Redcloak also wants *that* redressed (there's no level playing field when the starting conditions are so unfair). It's a tricky one, though, because without starting over that goes beyond what the gods can give them by themselves, and as has been noted before in this forum, the conquest of Azure City may already have fixed this issue, making the continuation of the Plan on these grounds unnecessary and dangerous. But that's not a given.

(The lizardfolk seem to have overcome that handicap in the Western Continent, but that doesn't mean the handicap isn't real)

[Kish]

I think it's an overstatement to say they've overcome it. The Vector Legion was 2/3 human (is now 4/5 human) and the sole lizardfolk was a vampire who considered his people to be vampires, not living lizardfolk--not exactly racially equal.

[Keltest]

I think it's an overstatement to say they've overcome it. The Vector Legion was 2/3 human (is now 4/5 human) and the sole lizardfolk was a vampire who considered his people to be vampires, not living lizardfolk--not exactly racially equal.

Not sure why that's even relevant. The sample size is terrible. Look at the actual people in the west. Lizardfolk and humans seem pretty thoroughly integrated, lizardfolk are employed as soldiers and other high-profile and relatively important jobs. I'm pretty sure the Giant is even quoted as saying that he wanted to show how Lizardfolk are well integrated into the major powers in the West.

[nleseul]

Not sure why that's even relevant. The sample size is terrible. Look at the actual people in the west. Lizardfolk and humans seem pretty thoroughly integrated, lizardfolk are employed as soldiers and other high-profile and relatively important jobs. I'm pretty sure the Giant is even quoted as saying that he wanted to show how Lizardfolk are well integrated into the major powers in the West.

But I don't think we really know whether lizardfolk were one of the late-created humanoid races that had all those disadvantages. It's entirely possible that they were actually one of the original PC races for the setting.

[arrowed]

It would be interesting to know the exact changes the Dark One would enact if the Plan worked. Would all goblinoids get a sudden transformation into more balanced PC-able versions? Would there be a new Eastern Continent for the Dark One and whatever new goblinoid gods emerged to rule over?

[Kish]

Assuming he's not lying completely to Redcloak and his new world doesn't feature goblins as the only race with full rights, hobgoblins and bugbears as second-class citizens, and dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, humans, orcs and so on as vermin...most likely, yes, with goblins in particular getting enough of a boost to displace humans as the "choose them for optimization, they can do anything!" basic race.

[Goblin_Priest]

Whether or not lizardfolk are balanced, I think the vampire template would be terrible either way. With its LA and its insane weaknesses (even though custom magic allowed him to overcome some of it, at least partially), it makes for a terrible PC, it's amazing he was more or less equal to the rest of the Vector Legion. But then again, he did die do a simple ambush, it's not like that protection from sunlight required all that much to overcome.

[Dr.Zero]

It would be interesting to know the exact changes the Dark One would enact if the Plan worked. Would all goblinoids get a sudden transformation into more balanced PC-able versions? Would there be a new Eastern Continent for the Dark One and whatever new goblinoid gods emerged to rule over?

The point is interesting. As far as I understood (but if it's wrong, correct me), the problem the DO e RC have is that goblins were created to be cannon fodder for PC to get xp in their first levels.

But is it even true? Doesn't RC being one of the highest levels living clerics around prove that they can do quite well?
People have pointed out that goblin is not a great race, but if we go with that line, even half orc is not so shiny (Thog laments about it).

And didn't the rise of Gobbotopia prove that goblinoids can actually kick human asses?
Yes, they were helped by Xykon, but what Xykon did was mostly:
1) killing Roy (only one of the high level characters who was there; V, H, B, D and E were fighting the goblin army, and Xykon never helped)
2) curbstomping the 1st-levelish Paladins in the throne room
3) killing the ghost martyrs

Now, if we take away from the equation the OOTS, Xykon, Soon, it seems we have a net gain for the goblin army.

Ok, we have to take in account that the nobles (and their powerful bodyguards) left Azure City before the battle, but we have to remember even that Azure City was the oldest bastion of LG forces (so not a common town, but like a superpower in OOTS world).
They were 3 vs 1, in number, but they had to besiege the town and breaking trough the walls, which is a big disadvantage. Even historically besiegers usually needed to outnumber the defenders.

Why this reasoning? Because this proves that, on some extent, the goblin army, lead by RC alone, is quite a force. And that probably they could build their our town and nation, exactly as they reconstructed Azure City tranforming it in Gobbotopia.

So, are they really so underpowered in the OOTS world?
Or is the problem that, if they ever tried to build their own nation, elves and paladins and whatever would join forces and go there to destroy it?
Is it a problem of stats, of alignment, or of specism (racism, but applied to goblins, inverting RC own specism)?

(Of course, if the DO manages to rebuild the goblin stats as OP, then, even if other nations join their forces against them, goblins win anyway; but then the point is not "Goblins are weak, we must fix this", but "I want goblins to be OP!").