Lucifer, Season 2

[Olinser]

It's a shout-out to The Sandman by Neil Gaiman. He created the Lucifer character as he more-or-less appears in the TV show (in that he's a former-angel who got bored of ruling Hell and went to start up a night club in LA, developed fully in comics by Mike Carey), and in that series Death is personified as a perky young woman with a penchant for Goth make-up. She's not an Angel in any way - Death is leagues above almost anything but the other Endless and the Creator itself - but I thought it was a nice touch.



They tried it over ten years ago when the comics were first published. All it did was generate interest and get them noticed by a much, much bigger audience back then, too.



I like your idea a lot. Personally though, I think that the show will head more in the direction of the comics....

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...In that Lucifer will finally see the wisdom in Father Frank's last words: That His Father has a plan for Lucifer. And that's the last thing that Lucifer wants - leaving Hell, going to LA, railing against the Heavens.... THAT is all a part of the plan! And the only way he can ever be free, is by being Asrael's-blade-dead - and Lucifer is far to proud to accept that - or by leaving God's universe entirely. And when he does that, Heaven sends another Angel to replace him in Hell - in this case, probably Amendial as his current 'fall' echoes that of his brother and would be punished/redeemed in the same way? Just a thought.

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I can't tell you how happy I am to have read that sentence - no one else I know has read the comics AND had an interest in the TV Show, so I've been going nuts after coming to the same Chloe-is-Elaine conclusion

I still think that the theory has a chance of working out, though. In the comics, Elaine was created by an Angel giving God's power to a human - in that case, God's power stolen from Michael and done so for weird psuedo-Angel-science reasons. In the TV show, it was Amendial (an Angel) who did more or less the same thing, but only because God told him to. There's still room to interpret that as "Chloe was created by an Angel taking power from God and making it into human form", which sets up Chloe as being God's "Grand-daughter" with potentially the same intention as the comics.

It's a stretch, but it's the way that I would like to see the series going - less of the over-done police investigation and more of the exploration of the lore and the story behind the Angels.

Also, while I'm on the subject of Wild Mass Guessing, am I the only one who thinks that....

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.....Lucifer still has his wings?

Yes, we watched him burn them on the beach in order to piss off Amendial..... But a pivotal plot point of the episode is that there was a REALLY GOOD replica at the auction that could have fooled absolutely anyone, except for Lucifer himself. Wouldn't it be JUST the sort of thing that Lucifer would do - tell Amendial that he decided that he didn't want the wings any more and then burn them in order to deface some of God's most precious and beautiful work.... but secretly keep them for himself, because they're HIS wings and, now that everyone thinks they have been destroyed, they're safe again, ready for when he needs them?

I actually proposed this same theory when the episode first aired. If that's the case, though, you'd think that with Chloe potentially dying that's when he would pull them out.

[Kislath]

Still has his wings, having only burned the fakes?
BRILLIANT!!! I hope it turns out that way someday.

Okay, so tonight's episode was a fun one. Not as funny as most, but still pretty cool.

[Olinser]

Still has his wings, having only burned the fakes?
BRILLIANT!!! I hope it turns out that way someday.

Okay, so tonight's episode was a fun one. Not as funny as most, but still pretty cool.

Well now they have ANOTHER break until May 1st. Lame.

As far as the wings, I mean as I said I proposed that idea when the episode first happened, but I feel like the most recent episode pretty convincingly proved that is not the case. If he had them, he would have brought them out this episode.

Overall, I was pretty disappointed in this episode.

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I mean Lucifer's personal Hell was pretty lame. Killing his brother over and over again is a pretty good idea. But he's NOT killing him over and over again. He's just stabbing him and Uriel literally isn't even reacting to it, showing no sign of pain or suffering or anything at all. Lucifer should have to feel him die in his arms on the floor over and over again, not just pointlessly jab him as he stands there.

Other than that this episode just felt like contrived filler, to be frank. Hey, one of the ingredients is SUPER RARE, so lets spend 5 minutes of screen time in pointless action getting it - and OH LOOK, Ella has a brother!

I mean its moved the story forward but definitely one of their weakest episodes so far.

[Millstone85]

Anyone can reach the afterlife. It is coming back that is difficult.

Called it! Although coming back wasn't that difficult.

Otherwise, this felt like a worldbuilding episode.

Spoiler: Personal hell

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So Hell is apparently a series of holosuites, except for torture instead of entertainment. I wonder if Heaven is made of conventional ones.

And you are ultimately your own judge and executioner, albeit on a subconscious level. Hmm, still plenty of room for the guilty to go free and the innocent to be punished.

I also wonder if Mazikeen started out as one of the holocharacters / personal demons, or if beings like her are the maintenance crew.

Spoiler: True death

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In addition to Azrael's blade being able to destroy the soul, we now know that demons don't have one to begin with. And so far, having a soul is entirely about being able to afterlive.

Point for not making the soul an exclusively human thing. By comparison, Supernatural established that angels and even God himself don't have one (though He invented them).

[mikelala]

"Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And you are ultimately your own judge and executioner, albeit on a subconscious level. Hmm, still plenty of room for the guilty to go free and the innocent to be punished.

Doesn't seem to work that way. The professor, in life, was utterly convinced that he had made the moral choice. But in hell, he is confronted with his crime, and made to see how he was guilty. Only when he accepts that guilt will he be free - if anything, the more guilty & in denial you are about said guilt, the longer you spend in hell. Only someone that was guilty, and in life managed to thoroughly confront and accept said guilt, will get a free pass at heaven.

That said, there is a bit of a plot-hole: IIRC, it was said earlier that without Lucifer at the helm, no-one was punishing the guilty in hell. That doesn't seem to be the case (although it might explain why the tortures aren't as bad as they could be. Hell does its best, but it does need Lucifer's imagination?)

Grey Wolf

[Delicious Taffy]

I've only seen two episodes so far, and enjoyed them, but I'm pretty sure they were in the middle of their respective seasons. The first I saw of the show was the episode where Lucifer befriends a priest, who winds up dying by the end and really messing with him. The second episode I saw was the one where his detective friend winds up being poisoned and the only guy who knows the antidote is dead, so Lucifer has to go to Hell to get it from him, and has trouble getting back out because he keeps stabbing one of his brothers. I missed a chunk of that second one, but when I came back, his other brother had just finished beating down some hospital employees, and then the detective lady got cured in the nick of time.

The show seems pretty watchable, so I might pick it up if I get back into the habit of watching TV.

[Millstone85]

The professor, in life, was utterly convinced that he had made the moral choice.

His following "experiments" were all about validation. He wanted someone to tell him that what he did was only human, to lessen his guilt and shame.

But in hell, he is confronted with his crime, and made to see how he was guilty.

So you are your own judge and executioner, but not prosecutor. That could work.

Only when he accepts that guilt will he be free

Will he? This is Hell, not Purgatory. Maybe he would just be left to sit in an empty room, aware that he belongs here for all eternity.
Edit: Wait, I talked about going free first. Saying this to myself, then.

That said, there is a bit of a plot-hole: IIRC, it was said earlier that without Lucifer at the helm, no-one was punishing the guilty in hell.

But in this episode, when Lucifer reminded everyone that he is the lord of Hell, he was told that a lot of time had passed and that it might no longer be true. So, new management?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

His following "experiments" were all about validation. He wanted someone to tell him that what he did was only human, to lessen his guilt and shame.

In classic trolley problem, when forced to make a moral choice of value (say you had to save a baby or an adult from a fire, rather than a thesis or a student), even if you make the superior moral choice, you will still have guilt over the result. I believe the professor thought he had made the right choice, and he was attempting to make others see it the same way. Mind you, by the end he was a raving lunatic, yes, and at that point there was nothing rational about his actions.

Will he? This is Hell, not Purgatory. Maybe he would just be left to sit in an empty room, aware that he belongs here for all eternity.
Edit: Wait, I talked about going free first. Saying this to myself, then.

Based on Lucifer's words, there is a way out, but he has never seen anyone find it. Whether he was bending the truth to get the formula, or it really takes that many millennia* to rid yourself of guilt while being tortured, the show does not say.

But in this episode, when Lucifer reminded everyone that he is the lord of Hell, he was told that a lot of time had passed and that it might no longer be true. So, new management?

Maybe - but Amenadiel declined the position, and we have not heard of anyone else taking it up - nor did anyone confront Lucifer or his mom, which suggests that there is no-one in charge as of now.

Grey Wolf

* I believe the show did give us an approximate number of years Lucifer was in hell?

[Olinser]

OK, so Lucifer is back after the hiatus and its a clear line until the end of the season at the end of May, so no more breaks this season.

Also in the interim they have been confirmed for a Season 3!

Lucifer is diabolically (heh heh heh ) manipulative in this episode.

Spoiler: End of episode

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So the reveal that Candy was actually just an actress that Lucifer hired to screw with everybody is both terrible and awesome. On a rewatch when he turned away from the mother in the office after saying he was leaving you could see a smug smile on his face when she told him to wait.

Lucifer is definitely plotting something right now and I doubt the mother is going to like it.

[random11]

Here is how I summarize the last episode:

"Oh no, they were almost in a relationship, quick, hit the reset button! HIT THE GODDAMN RESET BUTTON!!
Good, problem averted, carry on advancing the plot without actually advancing anything"

If it wasn't for their fear of advancing anything, I'd say it was an amusing episode, but I'm tired of advancing plot that is only relevant for the last two episodes of a season, which becomes irrelevant one episode later.
This is what happened in Grimm, Once upon a time, and in all the CW shows.

[Pronounceable]

Luci got me good.

Sadly no Trixie. I'd have loved to see what she'd make of Candy. Feels like a massive missed opportunity.

I also want Candy back at some point. She's the best one shot character so far, even better than mad stalker girl with Luci shrine and that was before the ending.

[Olinser]

Luci got me good.

Sadly no Trixie. I'd have loved to see what she'd make of Candy. Feels like a massive missed opportunity.

I also want Candy back at some point. She's the best one shot character so far, even better than mad stalker girl with Luci shrine and that was before the ending.

The problem they're already running into with Trixie is that its now been a year and a half since the show started but the series timeline has only advanced a few months. Trixie's actress is aging up IRL much more rapidly than her character.

[random11]

Season finale

All things considered, it was a good episode.

However, I can't help noticing that the same episode that has the "we have to move forward and not stay in place and repeat the same mistakes", ends with... Well, trying to stay in the same place without moving forward while repeating the same mistakes.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah... the status quo is sort of the recurring problem of those relationship driven cop shows. To really move forward they'd have to bring Chloe and Dan in on the truth and get into more cosmic stuff, but at that point the first 2 season run the risk of becoming essentially an extended prequel to a Supernatural-esque show, which would be weird.

Anyway yeah, I enjoyed the season, Charlotte was a lot of fun, I like the character development we got for pretty much everyone but Chloe. Linda sort of bores me though... That's not a knock on the actress, it's just that her role as human explainer to Lucifer and Maze is becoming more and more obsolete and I don't really get what makes her tick. Season 3 needs to spend more time on Chloe and find a way to move past the status quo but all in all it's a good show.

[random11]

Personally, my favorite characters are Maze and Linda.
Linda's character changed, that's true. But there was a limit of how many times we can laugh at the "she says something but Lucifer understands something completely different" joke, so the character was developed to a friend, and then to someone who actually understands what's going on and an integral part of the plot.

This is progress, character development, and while I understand why it's scary for writers (and some viewers), it's generally a good thing.
If Chloe will know the truth the dynamics will change as well as the cases they work on, but from what I've seen in this season, the best episodes were the ones with the connection between the supernatural element to the case Chloe is working on, when there was no connection, it was no different from any other "cop plus sidekick" show with some supernatural elements as fluff.

Sure, it might fail, but at least the show will TRY to do something different.
Failing is still better than being just another show among dozens with the same shtick.

[Kislath]

God is sneaky.

All of this stuff that happened was His plan all along.

1st-- send Amenadiel down to create Chloe, who then becomes instrumental in the coming events.

2-- Lucifer quits and moves to L.A.. He meets Chloe and otherwise thinks Earth is too much fun to leave.

3-- Amenadiel is sent to get Luci back to Hell, but winds up spending a long time at it, then loses his powers and is stuck in LA.

4-- Luci falls for Chloe so hard that he agrees to serve again in exchange for saving her life.

5-- In so doing, he learns that Ashara has escaped.

6-- Uriel shows up with evil plans to kill Her. He brings the sword of Azrael to do it. You'd think his powers of prediction would have told him not to bother, but oh well.
Uriel's last words are "The piece is here."

What an odd thing for Uriel to say. We know now what he meant, but if Uriel knew that, then once again, why did he try to tangle with Mom & Lucifer knowing that it would get him killed?

7-- Goddess/Mom becomes more and more dangerous.

8-- A plan is hatched to use the sword, but alas, it doesn't work.

9-- A possessed guy shows up, having wandered into town bearing the 2nd piece of the sword, and is apparently guided by God Himself.

10-- Amenadiel has the 3rd piece, and always has, and has conveniently been stuck hanging around with it, unable to leave.

11-- Mom can't go back to Heaven, and won't go back to Hell, and lot of mortals are about to die.
Lucifer assembles the flaming sword, the only thing capable of pulling off the trick that can offer the only real solution, and sends Mom to another dimension, an empty void waiting to be transformed into a new universe by someone with the required power. Finally, she is out of the way for good and hosts of Angels didn't even have to die.

12-- Amenadiel figures out where he stands and where he wants to stand, makes the right choice, and gets his powers back.
Lucifer has learned a LOT about humanity, loss, pain, compassion, and empathy, which I'm sure will all come in handy later, and he even knows a wee bit about love. It was a crash course indeed, but now Lucifer has reached a level of understanding that he never would have gained if he had been tossed back into Hell five years earlier when he first escaped.
He also knows now that humans can survive the knowledge of the true nature of things, thanks to Linda.

All in all, God saw all of this coming at least 35 years ago, and has been stacking up all the dominoes just right to get these results. Uriel's ability was feeble indeed in comparison, eh?