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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    PetenutButter's Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    This is a Multiclassing guide as a tool for beginners and seasoned players alike. Many single classed guides exist, which can go into more detail on each combination, but no guide has consolidated the bottom line up front, quick reference data until now. The aim is to exam the strengths, weaknesses, and viability of each multiclass combination from an optimization point of view, and to point out key breakpoints in classes.
    Spoiler: Guidelines
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    In order to make broad judgements on class combinations some assumptions must be made. For this guide I am considering only published, in book, AL legal content. I am also assuming standard 27 point buy. Many of the negative ratings have MADness as a big factor, so take that with a grain of salt when rolling stats. It is best to reference the individual breakdown for your desired multiclass for more details. This is of course subjective, and I will update it, as needed.

    If you feel I've egregiously offended your favorite multiclass, please leave a comment and justification, and I will recolor if the community supports it. The aim is not to have this be one guy's opinion, but a community resource. Please keep in mind the colors are based on the classes in general, not specific builds, although popular builds can affect ratings.

    Spoiler: General Multiclassing Tips
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    Most multiclasses fall into one of 3 categories. The first is to make a character better at their core competency. The second is to add versatility. The third is as a requirement to make your desired build work. Most multiclasses are a combination of 2 or 3 of these aims, but the second, to add versatility alone is generally weaker as it comes at the sacrifice of power.

    A caster with multiple classes will have versatility but sacrifice higher level spells, and may end up feeling weaker once initiative is rolled. From a purely damage standpoint spells of level 3 or higher are pretty much a cap on damage, and scale according to slots. A multiclass caster who picks up other non-warlock caster levels may not suffer on damage as long as they have at least 5 levels in their core class, as slots will continue to progress.

    ASIs are extremely strong, and generally add more to a character than most class features. It may not seem like much but adding +1 to hit and damage, or +1 to save DC has a large impact on a character throughout the course of an adventuring day. Feats as well such as GWM, SS, PAM, SM, etc greatly effect a character's prowess in combat. For these reasons it is highly discouraged to take 3 levels in a multiclass, or to leave a class one level before earning an ASI. This is more acceptable on a higher level character who already has their core stat at 20 and desired feats.

    Since most classes get a huge swing at level 5, a common tip is to take 5 levels in a class before multiclassing, so as to pick up either extra attack or third level spells as soon as possible. There are some notable exceptions to this rule, such as gish builds starting fighter or paladin for a level or two, aiming to use SCAG cantrips instead of extra attack. Otherwise it is probably best to avoid delaying extra attack/3rd level spells by any more than 1 level.

    Spoiler: Chart
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    x Barbarian Bard Cleric Druid Fighter Monk Paladin Ranger Rogue Sorcerer Warlock Wizard
    Barbarian x Barb/Bard Barb/Cleric Barb/Druid Barb/Fighter Barb/Monk Barb/Paladin Barb/Ranger Barb/Rogue Barb/Sorc Barb/Warlock Barb/Wizard
    Bard Bard/Barb x Bard/Cleric Bard/Druid Bard/Fighter Bard/Monk Bard/Paladin Bard/Ranger Bard/Rogue Bard/Sorc Bard/Warlock Bard/Wizard
    Cleric Cleric/Barb Cleric/Bard x Cleric/Druid Cleric/Fighter Cleric/Monk Cleric/Paladin Cleric/Ranger Cleric/Rogue Cleric/Sorc Cleric/Warlock Cleric/Wizard
    Druid Druid/Barb Druid/Bard Druid/Cleric x Druid/Fighter Druid/Monk Druid/Paladin Druid/Ranger Druid/Rogue Druid/Sorc Druid/Warlock Druid/Wizard
    Fighter Fighter/Barb Fighter/Bard Fighter/Cleric Fighter/Druid x Fighter/Monk Fighter/Paladin Fighter/Ranger Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Sorc Fighter/Warlock Fighter/Wizard
    Monk Monk/Barb Monk/Bard Monk/Cleric Monk/Druid Monk/Fighter x Monk/Paladin Monk/Ranger Monk/Rogue Monk/Sorc Monk/Warlock Monk/Wizard
    Paladin Paladin/Barb Paladin/Bard Paladin/Cleric Paladin/Druid Paladin/Fighter Paladin/Monk x Paladin/Ranger Paladin/Rogue Paladin/Sorc Paladin/Warlock Paladin/Wizard
    Ranger Ranger/Barb Ranger/Bard Ranger/Cleric Ranger/Druid Ranger/Fighter Ranger/Monk Ranger/Paladin x Ranger/Rogue Ranger/Sorc Ranger/Warlock Ranger/Wizard
    Rogue Rogue/Barb Rogue/Bard Rogue/Cleric Rogue/Druid Rogue/Fighter Rogue/Monk Rogue/Paladin Rogue/Ranger x Rogue/Sorc Rogue/Warlock Rogue/Wizard
    Sorcerer Sorc/Barb Sorc/Bard Sorc/Cleric Sorc/Druid Sorc/Fighter Sorc/Monk Sorc/Paladin Sorc/Ranger Sorc/Rogue x Sorc/Warlock Sorc/Wizard
    Warlock Warlock/Barb Warlock/Bard Warlock/Cleric Warlock/Druid Warlock/Fighter Warlock/Monk Warlock/Paladin Warlock/Ranger Warlock/Rogue Warlock/Sorc x Warlock/Wizard
    Wizard Wizard/Barb Wizard/Bard Wizard/Cleric Wizard/Druid Wizard/Fighter Wizard/Monk Wizard/Paladin Wizard/Ranger Wizard/Rogue Wizard/Sorc Wizard/Warlock x

    Spoiler: Multiclass Colors
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    Gold You really can't go wrong here. These two just compliment each other so well.
    Sky blue There are a lot of good class combinations here that can make for some solid builds.
    Blue There is some clear synergy here, but not as much as Gold or Sky Blue. May take some optimization to ensure the multiclass adds to the build.
    Black This is decent, but doesn't really make the class better at its core strengths or may be MAD
    Purple You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD.
    Red The lack of synergy here is just offensive. It's MAD. I'd avoid it altogether.

    Spoiler: X/y or Y/x
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    Most multiclassing involves dips or at the very least one class of greater level than the other. For this reason I have separated the multiclasses into dipping or adding to your core class. For the purpose of this guide a Fighter/Rogue represents a character with more levels in fighter than rogue, and Rogue/Fighter a character with more rogue levels than fighter. This is not at all dependent on the timing of the levels taken, for instance a wizard that takes his first level in fighter (then proceeds in wizard x) will be considered a Wizard/Fighter. This distinction is important as a character with 18 levels in wizard and 2 in fighter, behaves very differently than the inverse of Fighter 18/Wizard 2.

    Additionally these definitions are fluid, and not necessarily based on a level 20 build since most characters have to be played from 1-x. For example a Cleric/Ranger that takes his first 5 levels in ranger, and the rest in cleric is by the standards of this guide a Ranger/Cleric up until level 11 (when his cleric levels pass up ranger thereby making him a Cleric/Ranger).

    Spoiler: Barbarian
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    Barbarian is a fine class to keep as your core class within decent upgrades throughout its career and a fantastic capstone. To get the most of the class's features you are restricted to medium or less armor and str attacks. Dex based barbarians are still viable though, being able to benefit from the resistances while raging (but not the damage bonus). The inability to cast or concentrate on spells while raging, puts a big damper on multiclassing with any casters. As with any melee, it's best to avoid doubling up on abilities that don't stack, such as extra attack from other classes. Finally the requirements of a decent str, dex, and con make any multiclass needing a casting stat MAD.

    Key breakpoints are: levels 1-4 for dips, 5 (extra attack), 6 path feature, and then any level with an ASI.
    Spoiler: Barbarian/Bard
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    Barbarian/Bard
    A barbarian who dips bard gains jack of all trades for a decent boost to skills and ability checks. He can also toss out bardic inspiration while raging, but would likely get no more than a couple a day, due to the MADness. Other than those marginal benefits, he cannot cast while raging, losing most of the benefit of MCing into a caster class, as a core barbarian should spend most fights in his rage. This combination is used for niche grappler builds who want advantage on grapple, expertise on athletics, and cutting words, keeping it from being purple.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Cleric
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    Barbarian/Cleric
    A barbarian who dips cleric gains some useful domain abilities that can be used while raging, and some out of combat healing when not raging. The domain abilities are varied and mostly useful, keeping this from being purple.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Druid
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    Barbarian/Druid
    A barbarian who dips druid gains some out of combat healing or utilty, and wildshape. Moon druid wildshape may be tempting at lower level, but a core barbarian quickly outpaces the capabilities of a CR 1 creature. The MADness, added armor restriction, and little real benefits make this better left alone.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Fighter
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    Barbarian/Fighter
    A barbarian who dips fighter picks up some great benefits: A fighting style, action surge, and either increased crit (synergizing excellently with reckless attack), or maneuvers. Best avoiding Eldritch Knight, as spells cannot be cast not buffs maintained whilst raging. 1-4 levels of this adds a lot to the core barbarian.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Monk
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    Barbarian/Monk
    A barbarian who dips monk gains little on the surface. Unarmored defenses don't stack, and many monk abilities don't function if the barbarian is in armor or wielding a non-monk weapon. Ki abilities still work, granting a bonus action dodge, disengage, or flurry (likely 1+str damage). But the limited use, and the maximum MADness (4 13s) make this better left to the herioc and niche builds.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Paladin
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    Barbarian/Paladin
    A barbarian who dips paladin picks up a fighting style and smite at level 2, which can both help a core barbarian. While smite can be used while raging for some fantastic nova damage, the limited slots encourage such a character to pick up a third full caster class. The MADness and conflicts of progression prevent this from being blue. The options opened up by making caster classes a not so awful choice keeps it from being purple.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Ranger
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    Barbarian/Ranger
    A barbarian who dips ranger picks up another skill, a fighting style at level 2, and likely a hunter ability at level 3. This isn't a bad option but the big draw for damage increase is hunter's mark, which doesn't work while raging. Between the fighting style and the hunter ability it makes it blue. The MADness of the wisdom requirement pushes it a little closer to black.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Rogue
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    Barbarian/Rogue
    A barbarian who dips rogue picks up expertise (likely athletics), cunning action, and possibly an archetype. Stealth abilities can work well with a barbarian with a high enough con not wearing any armor. This dip is fantastic for tank barbarians who use a shield, as a rapier can benefit from both rage damage and sneak attack as long as the barbarian attacks with str. The expertise can see a lot of use with either shield master or grapple builds. This rating drops significantly if the barbarian is a 2hander type barb, but can still be viable as a way to farm crits with assassin, and barbarian's increased critical damage. There are better options though, as relying on surprise with a spell-less melee is rarely worth the multiclass.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Sorc
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    Barbarian/Sorc
    A barbarian who dips sorcerer doesn't have much to gain. There are a couple longer duration, non-concentration spells that can be used with rage, such as false life, but that would be better obtained through warlock. The mage armor/scales are pretty useless as a barbarian would be better off just boosting con to 16. Shield spell and melee cantrips are a poor choice on a character that should be raging. There is really very little reason to dip this class over any other. The MADness drives it to red.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Warlock
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    Barbarian/Warlock
    A barbarian who dips warlock gains a few boosts that could be worth the investment. Invocations, such as devil's sight and false life at will can be useful. Temporary hit points such as those from false life, Armor of Agathys, and Fiend Patron, see extra mileage as its twice as effective if you have resistance to the damage you are sustaining. But the MADness and lack of scaling on the abilities from a dip, prevents this from being blue. It works much better as a Warlock/Barbarian.

    Spoiler: Barbarian/Wizard
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    Barbarian/Wizard
    A barbarian who dips wizard doesn't have much to gain. There are a couple longer duration, non-concentration spells that can be used with rage, such as longstrider and false life, but there are better gained elsewhere. The various level 2 abilities can be neat, but aren't at all worth the lost core levels, or the MADness. Look elsewhere if you are a barbarian. If you want to play a warrior/wizard, use fighter.

    Spoiler: Bard
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    The bard class is an extremely versatile core class that only requires a good cha to operate well. The class is capable of operating as a skill monkey, a front-line fighter, an archer, a controller, a blaster or a healer all without the need to even multiclass. Multiclasses tend to be focused on either accentuating a decided roll or shoring up weaknesses. As a full caster, any MC suffers the loss of spells known and possibly spell slots. Many Bard multiclasses tend to take advantage of the magical secrets, providing earlier access to ranger/paladin spells in combination with other spell casting classes.

    Key breakpoints are: 2 (jack of all trades, which works for skills and initiative), 3(cutting words+skills), 4 (ASI) for dips, and 6(college feature), and 10, 14(magical secrets).
    Spoiler: Bard/Barbarian
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    Bard/Barbarian
    A bard who dips barbarian doesn't have too much to gain. The main benefits here are for a grapple bard to get advantage on grapple (better off Barbarian/Bard), or a valor bard looking for more combat output. Bards tend to need dex, con and cha though so a str bard is rare, making rage less desirable. The MADness and loss of spells while raging make this purple.

    Spoiler: Bard/Cleric
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    Bard/Cleric
    A bard who dips cleric has a variety of features available to benefit depending on domain. It is MAD requiring a 13 wis, but benefits are varied and numerous. A heavy armor domain can negate the bard's need for dex reducing its MADness, and without the cost of lost spell slots. Any domain combined with the proper magical secrets can be quite powerful. Several domains grant skills, augmenting the skill monkey. The common life cleric 1/lore bard 6+ can provide obscene healing with aura of vitality. The optimization required, and slight MADness keep it from being gold.

    Spoiler: Bard/Druid
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    Bard/Druid
    A bard who dips druid has little to gain, other than different spells, at the cost of progression, metal armor, and a 13 wis. Wildshape will be largely combat ineffective, even a Moon Druid's, as it scales poorly. The only thing keeping this from being red, is the niche uses that it might see. A Lore Bard/Life Cleric 1 may want a druid level for goodberry to save his magical secrets for better spells. Generally best avoided.

    Spoiler: Bard/Fighter
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    Bard/Fighter
    A bard who dips fighter has a lot to gain. The fighter level is best taken as the first level for the character to grant proficiency in con saves and heavy armor, which are both fantastic for any bard. Fighter 2 can be taken immediately or after several bard levels, for action surge. Valor Bards may be interested in fighter 3-4 for archetype and ASI. Eldritch Knight is a way for a bard to get shield spell, without taking sorcerer levels, while the other archetypes augment the valor bard's fighting prowess.

    Spoiler: Bard/Monk
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    Bard/Monk
    A bard who dips monk is MAD and confused. I am rating this red until someone gives a viable reason to combine these classes. There is no inherit synergy, and many monk features require no armor. The MADness is what really breaks it. Anything this combination does could probably be better accomplished with different classes.

    Spoiler: Bard/Paladin
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    Bard/Paladin
    A bard who dips just two levels of paladin gets a fantastic boost to his melee damage output potential via smite. Taking Paladin first for a heavy armor str build reduces any MADness of the MC and helps make it a solid front liner. Valor bards would be likely best served stopping at paladin 2, while lore bards (who want to be like valor bards) should take this as far as paladin 6 for extra attack and cha to saves. Smite with any cha based full caster is a recipe for gold, and bard is no different.

    Spoiler: Bard/Ranger
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    Bard/Ranger
    A bard who dips ranger gains a skill, some different spells, a fighting style, and likely a level 3 hunter ability. Best left for valor bards, or lore bards wanting 5 levels in another class for extra attack. There are worse ways too boost combat efficiency, but MADness of cha, wis, and dex make it hard for the character to excel at anything. Archery fighting style is appealing for archer bards, but best picked up through fighter.

    Spoiler: Bard/Rogue
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    Bard/Rogue
    A bard who dips rogue gains a skill, thieves' tools, and cunning action. A third level grants an archetype. Assassin has its strengths, especially on a valor bard archer, while AK makes for access to the shield spell. This combination is a solid way to make an ultimate skill monkey, with plenty of skills and expertise. Sneak attack works with your ranged and finesse weapons. You may find the overlap excessive though, lacking a powerful choice for all your expertise.

    Spoiler: Bard/Sorcerer
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    Bard/Sorcerer
    A bard who dips sorcerer gains shield spell at first level for added defense, permanent mage armor via draconic scales, and then metamagic at 3rd level. Metamagic is a great way for any full spell caster to boost versatility. Since bards are cha based as well the SADness makes this even more appealing. Taking more than few levels in sorcerer costs the bard high level spells, but too few levels in sorcerer will likely feel short on sorcery points to power the metamagic. Those limitations are the only thing keeping this from being gold.

    Spoiler: Bard/Warlock
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    Bard/Warlock
    A bard who dips warlock gains the full blasting capability of warlock in just two levels. Eldritch blast with agonizing and possibly repelling blast, immediately fixes the bard's innate lack of powerful at will blasting. Both are cha based, making this SAD. The warlock slots are great for some short rest recovery, at the cost of higher level bard spells and slots. It is best left for lore bards, as valor bards would likely prefer the higher level bard spells for buffing and boosting their attack stat over cha. It is worth mentioning that valor bards could benefit from the tome locks access to cha shillelagh for a SAD build.

    Spoiler: Bard/Wizard
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    Bard/Wizard
    A bard who dips wizard can access some neat wizard features, and some increased spell selection, but at the significant cost of their spells known progression. As it stands a bard can potentially "steal" wizard spells at levels 6, 10, 14, and 18, which greatly devalues this multiclass. The MADness drives it into the negatives, meaning this is best left for niche builds.

    Spoiler: Cleric
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    The cleric is a fantastic base class, than presents a variety of powerful options including strong buffs, powerful domain features, and the best healing spells. With the right domain selection a cleric can perform as a tank, a healer, a controller, or even a blaster. The versatility provided by full spells known makes the cleric able to easily switch or split rolls when preparing spells.

    Key breakpoints for dips are levels 1 and 2 providing the only feat-less access to heavy armor after level 1, and giving some strong domain features.
    Spoiler: Cleric/Barbarian
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    Cleric/Barbarian
    A cleric who dips barbarian sacrifices his full spell casting progression for augmenting his relatively weak melee abilities. A cleric who wants to act as a front-liner could be interested in taking this as far as level 5 for extra attack, but in doing so greatly limits their options in combat. A raging cleric, is likely just a bad barbarian, since the bulk of his cleric features are in his spells which can't be cast while raging. A cleric looking for extra attack is best looking elsewhere.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Bard
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    Cleric/Bard
    A cleric who dips bard gains jack of all trades, possible cutting words, or could even take it as far as a level 6 college feature. The combination of life cleric/lore bard aura of vitality works here is well, but at the cost of greatly delayed progression. A primary wisdom based life cleric/lore bard would heal just as well as the inverse. His cleric spells key off of wisdom, freeing his bard spells for more versatility, the only key healing spell that would be a "bard" spell being aura of vitality isn't affected by a lower cha. Specifics aside bard can augment the clerics often supportive role. The MADness keeps this from being any better than blue.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Druid
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    Cleric/Druid
    A cleric who dips druid gains access to some different spells and wildshape for bit of versatility, at the cost of metal armor restriction and delayed cleric spells. The common tactic here is for a life cleric to pick up druid for goodberry spell, for great low level and out of combat healing. Shillelagh spell is nice for a melee cleric, but could also be achieved through nature domain. Produce flame is a solid attack roll cantrip, which clerics lack. The metal armor restriction will be costly on a cleric, who likely won't have higher than a 16 dex for most (if not all) of their career, with their ASIs going to wisdom. The SADness keeps it blue.

    Spoiler: Cleric Fighter
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    Cleric/Fighter
    A cleric who dips fighter is best served taking the fighter level first for con save proficiency. Heavy armor could also help if the intent is to take a domain which doesn't normally give it. Defense style is great for added tankiness. Second level of fighter grants action surge, which is great on any build. If a cleric really wanted to act as a front-liner 5-6 levels of fighter gives extra attack and another ASI, at the cost of some heavy casting loss.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Monk
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    Cleric/Monk
    A cleric who dips monk could maybe end up with an increase in AC, along with some movement speed benefits and slightly better melee capability. The more levels in cleric, the less viable the melee becomes, as spells steadily outweigh them. If the cleric takes monk all the way to 5 for extra attack this becomes significantly more viable. There is no reason this couldn't work, although the inverse, Monk/Cleric may perform better.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Paladin
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    Cleric/Paladin
    A cleric who dips paladin gains a fantastic boost to his melee damage potential with smite and a fighting style at paladin 2. The cost is a little MADness and slightly delayed spell progression. The build may find itself extra MAD, if it wants to pick up extra attack and + cha to saves at paladin 5 and 6. The MADness and overlap between spell lists keeps it from being rated higher.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Ranger
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    Cleric/Ranger
    A cleric who dips ranger is aiming to enhance his weapon attacks, gaining a fighting style, different spells, and some good hunter abilities. If a cleric intends to get extra attack, ranger is probably the smoothest route to it. The first level in ranger is a bit weak, but the rest are good up until level 5. Since its a 1/2 caster, you lose less than fighter, and the stats are not MAD, except possibly the dex.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Rogue
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    Cleric/Rogue
    A cleric who dips rogue gains, a skill, thieves' tools, and cunning action at level two. Sneak attack can help as, well as the proficiency with better finesse weapons. There is some obvious synergy here with domains such as trickery, and could even lend itself well for a ranged war cleric using Sharpshooter feat to pull off big hitting sneak attacks. So long as it was intended from the start, the dex requirement shouldn't be MAD.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Sorcerer
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    Cleric/Sorcerer
    A cleric who dips sorcerer gains shield spell at first level for added defense, permanent mage armor via draconic scales, and then metamagic at 3rd level. Metamagic is a great way for any full spell caster to boost versatility. The ability to pick up the melee cantrips of BB/GFB is just icing on the cake for an often melee class that doesn't get extra attack. Although it is a bit MAD with the cha requirement, the pay off is well worth the boon. Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorcerers are common, as well as any cleric with just 3-4 levels in sorcerer for metamagic. Like any sorcerer dip a balance between sorcery point pool and lost core progression should be maintained.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Warlock
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    Cleric/Warlock
    A cleric who dips warlock gains access to some neat invocations, as well as possibly a scouting pet, or a tome for other class's rituals. Eldritch blast is a solid cantrip, but won't work so well on character without a higher cha, which is hard to obtain with the MADness. Melee cantrips would likely better serve you. Using warlock slots to cast healing spells on short rest recovery can be nice, but the split progression of warlock puts you further behind than any other casting class. Depending on how often you can short rest, you may end up with less overall slots. You will also not be up-casting spirit guardians or spiritual weapon at a comparable level to other full caster MCs. Warlock is good at adding some diversity or better melee if you take 5 levels of blade lock, but ultimately lags behind many of the more attractive choices.

    Spoiler: Cleric/Wizard
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    Cleric/Wizard
    A cleric who dips wizard has a few neat tricks to obtain via the level 2 wizard abilities, some helpful reactions such as shield, and absorb elements (notably not on the sorc list), as well as some non-concentration buffs that wouldn't compete with your cleric buffs such as longstrider or false life. Most of the level 2 and 6 abilities can compliment a cleric's casting well. The ability to pick up the melee cantrips of BB/GFB is great for an often melee class that doesn't get extra attack. It's MAD and requires a planned build but there are several combinations which create power.

    Spoiler: Druid
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    Druid is an excellent base class with plenty of versatility contained in itself with wildshape, a strong spell list, and an arguably overpowered capstone. The druid can perform as a tank, a healer, a controller, or even a blaster. The versatility provided by full spells known makes the druid able to easily switch or split rolls when preparing spells. The druid spell list has more offense options than the cleric list, at the cost of some defensive and healing spells.

    Of all classes the druid probably lends itself the least for multiclassing due to the arbitrary no metal armor restriction. This is subject to DM interpretation, so many of these ratings will improve if your DM allows the use of metal armor. Druid 1 picks up shillelagh and some nice spells like good berry. A moon druid 2 dip is ok, but becomes obsolete as levels increase.
    Spoiler: Druid/Barbarian
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    Druid/Barbarian
    A druid who dips barbarian is no doubt a moon druid looking to make the most out of his wildshape, gaining rage for both increased defense and offense while in animal/elemental forms. Reckless attack at 2 and bear totem both work well with wildshape, but at the cost of greatly delaying increased forms. There is some action economy issues if not already in wildshape, as both it and rage take a bonus action for moon druids. The raging wildshape will ultimately be passed in damage and utility by concentrating on powerful spells. This is still rated blue for its low level power.

    Spoiler: Druid/Bard
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    Druid/Bard
    A druid who dips bard gains some different spells, some inspiration dice, and jack of all trades. There is very little obvious synergy here, and it is MAD. Since druids lack the spellcasting shenanigans of wizards and clerics, there is no appeal here in combining anything with magical secrets.

    Spoiler: Druid/Cleric
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    Druid/Cleric
    A druid who dips cleric has a lot of good spells to gain such as bless and access to great domain features within one or two levels. The cost isnít steep as spell slots continue to progress, and it is SAD. For a druid that doesnít expect to see his capstone, this could be a very good multiclass choice.

    Spoiler: Druid/Fighter
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    Druid/Fighter
    A druid who dips fighter gains a fighting style, action surge and potentially an archetype feature. The fighting style will most likely be defensive for +1 AC. Action surge is fantastic on anyone, especially full casters as being able to shell out another spell in the same round is potent. Iíd probably avoid the archetypes as they would mostly be an attempt to augment wildshape, but in doing so would put wildshape further behind. Keep it at fighter 2 and itís a solid choice.

    Spoiler: Druid/Monk
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    Driud/Monk
    A druid who dips monk gains some AC, as well as various monk features. This could be a solid 1 level dip for any druid looking to gain a few AC, or perhaps a lot more depending on how much your DM allows your features to affect your wildshapes. RAW is a bit unclear so ask your DM on what does and doesnít work in wildshape forms.

    Spoiler: Druid/Paladin
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    Druid/Paladin
    A druid who dips paladin gains a fighting style, some nice spells, and smite. This is very Mad, but it could be viable as smite does work in wildshape, giving moon druids something to do with their slots once they are already in form. The build loses efficiency greatly at levels where wildshape isnít an effective combat choice, and may find that it will be outpaced by standard fighter types.

    Spoiler: Druid/Ranger
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    Druid/Ranger
    A druid who dips ranger gains a fighting style, some more spells, potentially a hunter ability, and even extra attack. Of all the ways a druid aims to get extra attack, ranger is probably the best fit as it wis based and half/caster. Probably best combined with a land druid, as moon druidís lose too much progression of wildshape to make it worth it. It is solid option for a druid who is aiming to attack, likely with a ranged weapon.

    Spoiler: Druid/Rogue
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    Druid/Rogue
    A druid who dips rogue gains some skills, expertise, sneak attack, cunning action, and possibly an archetype. The exploration and scouting ability of a druid with stealth expertise and wildshape is top tier. Sneak attack wouldnít work in wild shape, as natural attacks are not finesse, but cunning action always has value. In combat a moon druid could cast something like call lightning, and wildshape into something tiny. Blast with the lightning again on round two, then cunning action hide in the grass. Remain hidden until either call lightning ends in 10 minutes, or all foes are dead. The archetypes are tempting, but probably best avoided as theyíll delay spell progression too much.

    Spoiler: Druid/Sorcerer
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    Druid/Sorcerer
    A druid who dips sorcerer gains access to some good spells, likely scales for more AC, and metamagic. Attaching metamagic onto any full caster is a strong addition. Druids especially can benefit from metamagic as many of their spells such as call lightning can be activated after they are cast, for continual damage. This pairs well with a quickened spell for a continuous stream of blasting or control. Extending a conjure spell, or twinning a blight, etc. There are plenty of good options. It isnít RAW, but many DMs could be convinced that subtle spell allows for casting in wildshape, in which case this would probably be sky blue. The cha cost is a bit MAD, but the benefits can be worth it from an offensive stand point.

    Spoiler: Druid/Warlock
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    Druid/Warlock
    A druid who dips warlock gains access to some different spells, cool invocations, and potentially a pact. The spells can be a good addition to a warlockís list. Upcasting Armor of Agathys with druid slots works great with wildshape as many forms hit points are low at various levels, and they all have relatively low AC. The invocations can be good, but eldritch blast wonít have the cha to make it viable. Devilís Sight loses some value even on human/Halfling druids as they can wildshape to gain darkvision to see in nonmagical darkness. The lack of stacking of spell slots hurts when considering upcasting druid spells. Overall not a horrible dip, but the MADness keeps it from truly excelling.

    Spoiler: Druid/Wizard
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    Druid/Wizard
    A druid who dips wizard gains access to some different spells, and cool subclass features. There isnít a whole lot of synergy here. The wizard abilities tend to work better on wizards than with druid spells and the MADness probably makes it less than good. The stacking spell slots keeps it from being totally terrible.

    Spoiler: Fighter
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    The fighter class is a great class that is unique as the only class giving more than 2 attacks with the attack action. The fighter typically acts as a melee or ranged damage dealer, or a tank. They have some battlefield control options via grapple and shove, possibly aided by feats and maneuvers. They are also one of two classes (the other being rogue) that grant extra ASIs, notably at levels 6 and 14. Fighters are most the easiest class to multiclass into, with a variable requirement of str or dex, and provide an ability at level 2 that is valuable on any character: action surge. Depending on the aims of the fighter it is common to multiclass after picking up the third attack, due to the long wait between 3 and 4 attacks. Fighters are also one of two classes that only require 1 stat to operate, either str or dex, making no MC really that MAD.

    Key breakpoints are: 1(at first level gives con saves and heavy armor + FS), 2 (action surge), 3-4 (archetype-ASI) for dips, and 5-6 (extra attack-ASI), 11-12 (another attack-ASI).
    Spoiler: Fighter/Barbarian
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    Fighter/Barbarian
    A fighter who dips barbarian gains rage, reckless attack, and potentially an archetype at the cost of wearing medium armor or less. Rage is a fantastic boon, giving resistance to physical(or nearly all) damage and a damage boost. The downside is easily planned for with a 14 dex. Reckless attack is a great option as well that grants advantage at will for GWM fighters. Dex fighters are probably best avoiding this, although they still benefit from the resistances, they cannot use reckless attack or the rage damage bonus. It would also make it MAD. Excellent 4 level dip, to avoid doubling up on extra attack.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Bard
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    Fighter/Bard
    A fighter who dips bard gains some skills, some spells, and jack of all trades. There are some benefits here that are viable, but few make the character better at its core strengths. Lore bard 3 grants cutting words, but without boosting cha, the uses per day will be few. There are better combinations, but it wouldnít be gimping at all.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Cleric
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    Fighter/Cleric
    A fighter who dips cleric gains some great spells, and cool domain features. The buff spells of cleric go well with the fighters con save proficiency, as well as the ability to heal yourself and fallen allies with healing word. There are little downsides as the wisdom cost isnít steep, and comes with the added benefit of boosting an important save, and common skill, perception.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Druid
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    Fighter/Druid
    A fighter who dips druid gains some spells, and wildshape. The spells could be useful, but come at the steep cost of metal armor. As a primary fighter AC is an important stat. Perhaps dex based Eldritch Knights that dumped int in favor of wisdom could be viable, using their EK spells to keep Mage Armor going. That is pretty niche though. Wildshape wonít be strong enough to be a viable combat option. Whatever you are trying to gain here could probably be better achieved through a cleric or ranger dip.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Monk
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    Fighter/Monk
    A fighter who dips monk gains many features that may or may not work depending on the fighterís desired loadout. There are several features that do work, see the monk class for details, but it loses some viability due to the dead abilities. If the fighter intends to operate as a normal monk, then they probably better off as a Monk/Fighter.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Paladin
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    Fighter/Paladin
    A fighter who dips paladin gains some spells, smite, another fighting style, as well as potentially oath features. The fighting style comes out to another AC or about + 2 damage. Smite might be attractive, but would lack slots to really back it up. This becomes more viable on an Eldritch Knight, who could potentially have enough slots to put it to good use. Using an action surge for 6 attacks and smiting on them all is some powerful nova but it would take nearly all the slots in one round. The oath features can be a good help, such as devotion for GWM advantage. The option to keep bless going, with con save proficiency would be a good help to the team. Unfortunately the amazing Aura of Protection is hidden behind paladin 5, which would cause doubling up on extra attack. There are worse options for a fighter, but it isnít the best.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Ranger
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    Fighter/Ranger
    A fighter who dips ranger gains some spells, another fighting style, and likely a hunter feature. The spells are good on class that doesnít always have something to concentrate on. Hunterís Mark particularly goes well with fighters, as they get more out of it with their extra attacks. The level 3 hunter abilities are great, and a big help to fighters. Overall 4 levels is a solid addition to a fighter, but may be a little MAD for str fighters with its dex and wis requirement.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Rogue
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    Fighter/Rogue
    A fighter who dips rogue gains some skills, expertise, cunning action, and possibly an archetype feature. Expertise is often taken on fighters in athletics for aid in grappling and shoving, pairing especially well with Shield Master feat. Str fighters can still use finesse weapons to achieve sneak attack. Cunning action is useful on anyone, aiding in reaching foes or kiting foes.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Sorcerer
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    Fighter/Sorcerer
    A fighter who dips sorcerer gains some spells, potentially scales, and metamagic. The scales act as permanent mage armor, giving a good AC bonus to dex fighters (eventually). Shield spell is quite possibly the 1st level spell in the game. Quickening a spell, and following it with an attack action can be quite potent. Eldritch Knights could make good use of this, but unfortunately would need to dump int to keep from being MAD.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Warlock
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    Fighter/Warlock
    A fighter who dips warlock gains some spells, cool invocations, and possibly a pact. The spells are helpful on a fighter without anything to concentrate on. Hex scales well with a fighterís many attacks. Eldritch blast may or may not be as much damage as a ranged weapon, depending on how high the fighter can keep their cha. Devilís Sight and darkness is always a popular option on martial builds, but comes with the cost of possibly hurting the rest of the party.

    Spoiler: Fighter/Wizard
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    Fighter/Wizard
    A fighter who dips wizard gains spells and cool subclass features. This is the most common fighter/caster multiclass as it pairs well with the Int based Eldritch Knight. Abjuration is popular but probably better as a Wizard/Fighter since it scales with wizard levels. Many of the other schools offer good options for a fighter. Divination is always good. Enchantmentís level 6 ability is great on a melee. Two levels of bladesinger could be good on a dex fighter.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2017-05-31 at 12:42 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Spoiler: Monk
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    The monk is a solid core class that can perform as melee or short ranged damage dealer, or a tank with plenty of survivability boosts, and a single resource that recharges on a short rest. Despite their versatility in play, they are the least versatile class in character creation. Most monks tend to run around naked, punching and kicking things. There is little variation. Their capstone is relatively weak encouraging some multiclassing once the Monk has reached a desired breakpoint.
    Spoiler: Non-Monky Monks?
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    For those interested in playing a monk wearing armor or using a non-monk weapon, the following abilities still work in armor: All ki abilities, including flurry, deflect missles, all subclass features, and stunning strikes. The biggest losses are, no scaling damage dice, making unarmed strike stuck at 1 or 1d4 with tavern brawler, Tabaxi and Lizardfolk get a 1d4 and 1d6 respectively for their unarmed damage; loss of movement speed buffs; loss of ability to use dex with unarmed strikes and monk weapons; loss of regular single bonus action attack. It is quite possible to build a viable build as a Non-Monky Monk.

    Monks are the class most dependent on ASIs as their AC is exclusively dependent on their ASIs. A fighter can get away with taking feats for their first couple ASIs, but a monk that doesnít boost dex or wisdom by level 8 will still be sitting at a 16 AC. For this reason many monk multiclasses will be in numbers divisible by 4. Furthermore, monks need a good wisdom, dex and con to operate well, making MADness an extra challenge for them.
    Key breakpoints: 1(AC), 4(ASI, avoid doubling extra attack), any ASI level, 11(subclass feature), and 14 (saves).
    Spoiler: Monk/Barbarian
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    Monk/Barbarian
    A monk who dips barbarian gains access to rage, and a different non-stacking AC. The rage is great for damage resistance, but the damage bonus likely wonít apply while using dex. For a non-monky build taking 1-4 levels of barbarian and the rest monk could result in a very tanky character with resistance to damage and bonus action dodging. It comes at the cost of a little MADness and several dead levels/class features.

    Spoiler: Monk/Bard
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    Monk/Bard
    A monk who dips bard gains access to some skills, spells and jack of all trades. If a monk wants spells they are best left to picking a wisdom based class. If they want skills, they can get rogue. There is little reason to attempt this MAD build. Probably best avoided.

    Spoiler: Monk/Cleric
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    Monk/Cleric
    A monk who dips cleric gains access to some spells, and cool domain features. The spells go great on a monk who typically lacks anything to concentrate on, but already has a high wisdom. This is a great combination that has little drawbacks. As long as the monk picks up extra attack, itís hard to go wrong here.

    Spoiler: Monk/Druid
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    Monk/Druid
    A monk who dips driud gains access to some spells and wildshape. Wildshape wonít be very useful in combat as a dip, but still useful for stealth or exploration. The spells are a great addition to the monk who already has a high wisdom, and nothing to concentrate on. The lack of metal armor is no love lost here, and your team will be happy to have one more person that can heal. Shillelagh can help encourage wis boosts over dex, but wouldnít work on unnamed strikes. It can be slightly outpaced by the cleric option, but is still overall quite strong.

    Spoiler: Monk/Fighter
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    Monk/Fighter
    A monk who dips fighter gains a fighting style, action surge and possibly an archetype. The fighting style is pretty limited for a traditional monk, making duelist the go to option. Action surge while great on any class loses a little value on monks, as half their damage can come from the bonus action. Battle master works great, but champion may scale better with the monkís 4 attacks a round. Eldritch Knight is notable in that it gives access to the shield spell without a 13 int/cha requirement , which most monks will lack. A great dip, best taking exactly 4 levels of it, so as not to lose an ASI or double up on extra attack.

    Spoiler: Monk/Paladin
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    Monk/Paladin
    A monk who dips paladin, gains a fighting style, smite, and possibly an oath. The fighting style is probably duelist on a traditional monk. Smite is tempting with monkís many attacks, but it wouldnít have the slots to back it up with only a dip in paladin. The intense MADness of 4 stats needing 13, none of which being con, make this probably best avoided.

    Spoiler: Monk/Ranger
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    Monk/Ranger
    A monk who dips ranger gains a fighting style, some spells, and likely a hunter ability. The fighting stye is probably duelist on a traditional monk. Hunterís Mark is a fantastic damage boost on a class with 3-4 attacks a round. The hunter ability is just more damage. This is a great choice for a4 level dip, grabbing the precious ASI and avoiding doubling up on extra attack. It is completely void of MADness.

    Spoiler: Monk/Rogue
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    Monk/Rogue
    A monk who dips rogue gains some skills, expertise, cunning action, and possibly an archetype. The cunning action can appear like an overlap for the monk, but the ki savings are well worth it. As for archetypes, assassin could be fun to crit with all of a monkís attacks. Arcane Trickster is a good way for a monk to get Shield spell without a 13 int/cha. Could make a solid dip, preferably in 4 or 8 levels.

    Spoiler: Monk/Sorcerer
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    Monk/Sorcerer
    A monk who dips sorcerer gains some spells, and possibly scales. The scales could temporarily make up for the lack of points to have a high wis, but the benefits probably wonít outweigh the MADness. The typical appeal of the sorcerer gish is the action economy of quickened, but the bonus action of the monk is already full of options. GFB/BB are pretty useless on a monk, as they cannot flurry or use martial arts without taking the attack action. These classes have little to add to each other. Probably best left for niche builds.

    Spoiler: Monk/Warlock
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    Monk/Warlock
    A monk who dips warlock gains some spells, cool invocations, and possibly a pact. It is MAD, but Armor of Shadowís could temporarily help mitigate the lower AC. This is a common choice for the shadow monk to gain Devilís Sight, as they can cast darkness but lack the ability to see in magical darkness. This is more of a way to fix the issues with the Shadow Monk than it is a real synergy, as the warlock can both cast and see in magical darkness without multiclassing. Casting Darkness comes with its own issues as you may essentially turn off your teammates as well.

    Spoiler: Monk/Wizard
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    Monk/Wizard
    A monk who dips wizard gains access to some spells as well as some cool subclass features. Bladesinger is one of the few ways a monk can add to AC, but the MADness makes it unlikely to be worth it. There is little synergy here that comes with this combination, and it is MAD. Probably best avoided.

    Spoiler: Paladin
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    The paladin is one of the strongest base classes with kit that provides several condition immunities to the paladin and nearby allies, as well as saving throw boosts, half casting ability, and smite. Paladins can serve as melee damage and tanks, often both. Smite is one of the few abilities in the game that actually becomes directly stronger with multiclassing, allowing more smite slots of higher levels faster when combined with a full caster.

    Key breakpoints are: 2 (Smite +FS), 3-4 (oath-ASI), 5-6 (extra attack- Aura of Protection), 9 (3rd level spells), 11-12 (Improved Divine Smite-ASI).
    Spoiler: Paladin/Barbarian
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    Paladin/Barbarian
    A paladin who dips barbarian gains rage, reckless attack, and potentially an archetype. Rage is great for any melee, although it prevents the paladin from concentrating on spells. It does allow smiting while raging though, all at the cost of heavy armor. The MADness of needed a decent dex for AC, prevents this from being optimal. The more paladin levels the worse this gets, as spells get better and better.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Bard
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    Paladin/Bard
    A paladin who dips bard gains some skills, jack of all trades, and full casting slots based on cha. Jack of all trades can be a good boost to a character that typically wonít have a high initiative. The spells are the real gravy here. Smite scaling gets much more viable when attached to a full caster. Boosting cha would add both to all saving throws and spell save DC.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Cleric
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    Paladin/Cleric
    A paladin who dips cleric gains some more spells, and cool domain features. There are several domain features that could go well with the paladinís kit. A paladin of 9th level or higher could benefit from a single level in life cleric to go with aura of vitality. Tempest cleric could go well with thunderous smite. There are some solid options here, but the MADness is tight on a class that needs both high attack stat and high cha.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Druid
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    Paladin/Druid
    A paladin who dips druid gains some spells and wildshape. Wildshape is only useful out of combat as it will scale poorly. The spells can be a nice boost, but the MADness limits their usefulness. It all comes at the high cost of prohibiting metal armor. As a melee class, paladins are in great need of AC. Whatever you are trying to do, is probably better achieved in cleric, ranger, or just Oath of the Ancients. Iíd avoid this.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Fighter
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    Paladin/Fighter
    A paladin who dips fighter gains another fighting style, action surge, and potentially an archetype. The fighting style is likely either +1 AC, or ~+2 damage. Action surge is just another resource to go with the existing nova potential of the class. Battle master is great, but champion goes excellently with paladins who can choose to smite after landing a crit. Eldritch Knight can give shield spell, but probably better picked up from sorcerer.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Monk
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    Paladin/Monk
    A paladin who dips monk gains a lot of features that may or may not work with his current loadout. This is as MAD as it gets requiring 4 13s, none of which are con. Flurry of blows is attractive as a way to get two more smites out. Unfortunately Improved Divine Smite would not work with unarmed strikes. This is probably best avoided.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Ranger
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    Paladin/Ranger
    A paladin who dips ranger gains another fighting style, some different spells, and potentially a hunter ability. The spells donít add much as a paladin of the right oath can get some ranger spells anyways. The fighting style is either +1 AC or ~+2 damage. The hunter ability is a nice damage boost, but unfortunately comes at the high cost of max MADness , 4 13s required, none of which are con. Probably best avoided.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Rogue
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    Paladin/Rogue
    A paladin who dips rogue gains some skills, expertise, cunning action, and potentially an archetype. Expertise in athletics is a common choice for those that love to grapple or shove, and pairs especially well with the Shield Master feat. Using a shield and a rapier, knocking foes prone before the attack action, then hitting them while they are down provides both advantage for sneak attack and greater chances of critting for those big smite crits. Going for assassin can get some nasty surprise round smite crits, but is very difficult to pull off as melee. Swashbuckler could be great choice, adding your high cha to initiative.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Sorcerer
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    Paladin/Sorcerer
    A paladin who dips sorcerer gains some spells, full cha-based casting, and metamagic. This and its inverse, Sorcerer/Paladin are probably the best multiclasses currently in 5e. The full casting provides extra slots to smite with, and the metamagic provides action economy heaven. Quickening a spell and backing it up with the attack action is very powerful. The SCAG cantrips buffed this further allowing you to quicken GFB/BB and attach a smite to that as needed as well. A sixth level draconic sorc has one of the best bonus action attacks in the game with a quickened GFB adding both str/dex and cha t0 damage. Taking 6 levels of paladin first is common, but taking 11-12 levels is also very viable. It is very powerful offensively, but also quite hard to kill with its boosts to saving throws, heavy armor and shield spell.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Warlock
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    Paladin/Warlock
    A paladin who dips warlock gains some spells, with slots that recover on a short rest, invocations, and potentially a pact. This is a good alternative to the Paladin/Sorcerer dump-the-bucket approach, instead getting some good recovery on short rests. Over the course of a day it may end up with more smites than a Paladin/Sorcerer. The utility with likely pact of the tome is also quite useful. Blade pact is a bit redundant.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Wizard
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    Paladin/Wizard
    A paladin who dips wizard gains some spells and subclass features. There is almost no reason to do this over sorcerer. It is practically the same class, except wizard doesnít give quicken, and is MAD. Avoid this if you are optimizing.

    Spoiler: Ranger
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    The ranger is commonly regarded as one of the weakest base classes in 5e, evidenced by its several UA do-overs. Until there is any published in-book content, this guide will continue to focus on the phb ranger. The ranger has a lot of weak or dead levels that encourage multiclassing, along with a capstone that is so terrible it was practically ret-conned to first level with the new UA ranger. All that being said the first 5 levels of ranger are quite good, good enough to keep most high level rangers from feeling gimped. Rangers require dex and wis 13s to MC making MADness a bit of an issue, but they can get away with a relatively lower wisdom compared to other classes as many of their spells are not save based. Str rangers may find themselves extra MAD.

    Key breakpoints are: 2(FS + Hunterís Mark), 3-4 (Hunter ability-ASI) for dips, and 5(extra attack), 9(3rd level spells), 11-12(WA/volley-ASI).
    Spoiler: Ranger/Barbarian
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    Ranger/Barbarian
    A ranger who dips barbarian gains rage, possibly an AC increase with enough con, reckless attack, and potentially an archetype feature. It is best combined with a str ranger to get the most of the abilities. Rage is quite useful for melee, but unfortunately doesnít work with Hunterís Mark. Itís a little bit less average damage than Hunterís Mark, with the added benefits of resistance, and not needing to swap it between targets. The limit of medium armor isnít an issue. It is a good option for rangers looking to be tankier a couple times a day.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Bard
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    Ranger/Bard
    A ranger who dips bard gains some skills, jack of all trades, and spells. There is little obvious synergy to go on here. It is MAD. Best left for niche builds.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Cleric
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    Ranger/Cleric
    A ranger who dips cleric gains some more spells, possibly heavy armor proficiency, and cool domain features. There are plenty of uses for this combination, and little is really lost by taking cleric over more ranger. A strong build starts ranger 5 and proceeds cleric from there.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Druid
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    Ranger/Druid
    A ranger who dips druid gains more spells, and wildshape. Wildshape wonít scale enough to be useful in combat, and there is significant overlap between the spell lists. The lack of heavy armor could cost some AC. A Ranger/Cleric likely does most of what this could do better, but this is still viable due to the SADness.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Fighter
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    Ranger/Fighter
    A ranger who dips fighter gains another fighting style, action surge, and potentially an archetype. The fighting style is likely +1 AC or ~+2 damage. Action surge is good on anything. Battle Master is a good way to round out the kit. Champion is viable. Eldritch Knight gives shield spell without an int/cha requirement. A strong 4 level dip.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Monk
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    Ranger/Monk
    A ranger who dips monk could potentially increase AC, and gains monk features. There is good synergy here, although probably better left as the inverse, Monk/Ranger, as higher ranger levels donít help as much.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Paladin
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    Ranger/Paladin
    A ranger who dips paladin gains another fighting style, smite, and potentially an oath. Smite is attractive but probably not worth the MADness, requiring 4 13s, none of which are con. Best left to niche builds.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Rogue
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    Ranger/Rogue
    A ranger who dips rogue gains some skills, expertise, cunning action, and potentially an archetype. Cunning action is great on a ranger, aiding in kiting, and potentially repositioning in order to trigger hordebreaker. Assassin is a common pick for rangers who tend to skulk about already. Arcane Trickster could provide a shield spell without an int/cha requirement. There are plenty of good options here, that easily combine with ranger.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Sorcerer
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    Ranger/Sorcerer
    A ranger who dips sorcerer gains some spells, possibly scales, and metamagic. It is MAD. Many ranger spells are already bonus actions, gaining little benefit from quicken spell. The scales are a nice AC boost for a dex ranger, but not worth the MADness. Probably best left to niche builds.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Warlock
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    Ranger/Warlock
    A ranger who dips warlock gains some spells, cool invocations, and possibly a pact. There is some redundancy between Hunterís Mark and Hex. Armor of Shadows can be an AC boost to dex rangers, and Devilís Sight is great, especially those human and Halfling types that lack normal darkvision. The pact could add some versatility.

    Spoiler: Ranger/Wizard
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    Ranger/Wizard
    A ranger who dips wizard gains some spells and subclass features. There is little obvious synergy here. It is MAD. Best left to niche builds.

    Spoiler: Rogue
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    The rogue is a excellent core class that looks forward to a solid linear damage increase to sneak attack every other level. Aside from the damage increases the class gets pretty steady useful abilities with few weak or dead levels. The rogue is not at all limited to the stereotypical sneaky type, and more commonly behaves in combat like a swashbuckler(with or without the subclass) via touch and go attacks utilizing cunning action to force foes to attack their tankier allies or provoke OAs getting to them. They are typically solid damage dealers that double as skill monkeys. Rogues only require dex for multiclassing making them easy to fit into a variety of builds and not so subject to usual MADness constraints. GFB and BB are direct upgrades to a rogue's damage output, except TWF, so multiclassing that picks up those cantrips is a good investment. Sneak attack works once per turn, not round, so if rogue can get a reaction attack off on a separate turn it is well worth the multiclass investment.

    Key breakpoints: 1 (expertise, 1d6 SA), 2 (Cunning Action), 3-4 (assassin, ASI), 5(Uncanny Dodge), 7 (Evasion), etc. The linear progression of rogue makes pretty much any desired point a good break point.
    Spoiler: Rogue/Barbarian
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    Rogue/Barbarian
    A rogue who dips barbarian is likely wielding a rapier and utilizing it with str. This is another common tactic for a rapier shield master build with just 1-5 levels in barbarian. Shoving foes prone as a bonus action with shield master and then stabbing them grants advantage and practically permanent sneak attack. Heavy investment in rogue makes for some devastating sneak attacks. Even more so if you manage a crit. Since most barbarians already have the dex required for their medium armor, this is a solid pick for anyone who might use a finesse weapon. Reckless attack is fantastic when paired with sneak attack for at will sneak attack. Both it and rage require the use of str when attacking though.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Bard
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    Rogue/Bard
    A rogue who dips bard gains spells and skill boosts. This is one of the best ways to be an ultimate skill monkey with lore bard and loads of expertise. The cost is a bit of combat inefficiency, as both spells and sneak attack lag behind. This is rated blue for its skill monkey optimization.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Cleric
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    [COLOR="#0000FF"]Rogue/Cleric[/COLOR]
    A rogue who dips cleric gains some spells, and solid domain features. A common mix here is trickery domain, but several domains could lend themselves well to rogue levels. This is an easy dip for a rogue to gain guidance for further boosting skills and initiative when available. The wisdom requirement is easily planned for and adds a good bonus to a common save and perception. Since most rogues lack something to concentrate on, and try to avoid being hit at all, it is great for them to pick up something like bless for the team.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Druid
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    Rogue/Druid
    A rogue who dips druid gains some spells as well as wildshape for some great out of combat exploration. There are plenty of good spells to boost the stereotypical rogue. Darkvision spell for the human and halfling rogues. Ducking in and out of a fog cloud is a great way to always have concealment and something to hide in. When in need, healing word is always good if to pick up your teammates, especially if the primary healer is down. The metal armor restriction is not as big of a deal on a light armor wearer. The wisdom requirement is easily planned for and adds a good bonus to a common save and perception.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Fighter
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    Rogue/Fighter
    A rogue who dips fighter gains a fighting style, proficiencies, action surge, and potentially an archetype feature. The fighting style gives either +1 AC or ~+2 damage, and archery style is fantastic paired with Sharpshooter feat. While action surge is good on any class it is practically required on an assassin. Between a breastplate and a shield a rogue with 16 dex gains 3 AC, 4 AC with the fighting style. Battle Master is one of the best ways to achieve an attack as a reaction via riposte, triggering another shot at sneak attack (new turn, same round). This could double the characters overall damage per round when it connects. Great combo, especially if rogue levels are kept higher for sneak attack dice.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Monk
    Show
    Rogue/Monk
    A rogue who dips monk gains all the monk features, which could be an increase in AC and damage output with just 1 level. The Shadow Monk works well with rogue. Keep in mind that although monk allows dex on unarmed strikes and monk weapons they must still be finesse to sneak attack, so stick to a short sword. There are no clear breakpoints in the build, but it would help to pick up extra attack and stunning strikes.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Paladin
    Show
    Rogue/Paladin
    A rogue who dips paladin gains a fighting style, proficiencies, smite, and potentially oath features. The fighting style gives either +1 AC or ~+2 damage, but smite while useful will have limited slots even on an Arcane Trickster. It is tempting on an assassin to smite surprised foes, but due to the MADness and unsustainability with limited slots it'd probably under perform.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Ranger
    Show
    Rogue/Ranger
    A rogue who dips ranger gains some proficiencies, a skill, a fighting style, spells, and potentially a third level hunter feature. These classes have a lot of thematic and mechanical synergy. Between a breastplate and a shield a rogue with 16 dex gains 3 AC, 4 AC with the fighting style. Taking ranger up to 5 at some is a good way to ensure you land sneak attack, but at the cost of sneak attack progression.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Sorcerer
    Show
    Rogue/Sorcerer
    A rogue who dips sorcerer gains effectively permanent mage armor, some good spells, and metamagic. GFB and booming blade are great and once combined with quicken can increase damage even more. A quickened GFB/BB can be followed up with a ready action, to trigger sneak attack on another turn. Once haste is achieved, it works even better with that.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Warlock
    Show
    Rogue/Warlock
    A rogue who dips warlock gains some spells, cool invocations, and possibly a pact. GFB and BB are great. Devil's Sight is a good way to fix a human or halfling rogue's lack of darkvision. Armor of Shadows is +1 AC. Hex if precast, and ready to switch is great when surprising foes to give them disadvantage on initiative, which is of course a boon for assassins. Pick up an Imp familiar with pact of the chain to scout wherever you can't, or a psuedodragon to milk for poison to use with a thief's fast hands.

    Spoiler: Rogue/Wizard
    Show
    Rogue/Wizard
    A rogue who dips wizard gains some spells and cool subclass features. This is an obvious and common choice for Arcane Tricksters looking to get a little more spellcasting. Bladesinger is a good choice for a dip, as the AC bonus fits nicely with a rogue's traditional kit. Many other schools are viable as well. GFB and BB are great as always. Many spells can add to stealth such as [Greater] Invisibility.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer
    Show
    The sorcerer is by itself generally weaker than the wizard. They know less spells than a wizard can prepare and can typically cast less over the course of the day as a wizard can recover spells on short rest. Metamagic is the only thing a sorcerer has to keep pace, and it alone has its limitations. Quicken seems strong, until you read the fine print that you can't cast another level spell when casting a spell as a bonus action. Other metamagics have strict limitations. Yet combining with the right classes a sorcerer can take those limitations and run with them. You don't need another leveled spell if you're casting an Agonizing Eldritch Blast, or attacking with smites. The ability to quicken a spell and still take the attack action makes sorcerer a very potent choice for a gish type character.

    Key breakpoints are: 3 (metamagic), 4 (ASI), 5 (3rd level spells), 6 (origin feature), spell level of choice.
    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Barbarian
    Show
    Sorcerer/Barbarian
    A sorcerer who dips barbarian is probably not optimizing. Unless there is some other way to make use of it, a rage is just an ability that turns off your class as a primary squishy caster. With a high enough con, it could add a couple points of AC, which would be pretty pointless by the time your con is that high. Stay away from this.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Bard
    Show
    Sorcerer/Bard
    A sorcerer who dips bard gains some skills, jack of all trades, and subclass features. The aren't a lot of obvious synergies here, but as both are full casters that are cha based, it definitely wouldn't be gimping.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Cleric
    Show
    Sorcerer/Cleric
    A sorcerer who dips cleric gains access to some great spells as well as powerful domain features. Certain domains, such as the popular tempest domain features are better combined with sorcerer spells. Several single target cleric buff spells are prime targets for twin spell or extend spell. The wisdom cost is a little MAD, but the versatility of buffs, healing and domain features should more than make up for it.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Druid
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    Sorcerer/Druid
    A sorcerer who dips druid gains access to some different spells as well as wildshape. This is similar to the Sorcerer/Cleric, but lacking in some of the better buff spells or domain features to work with sorcerer spells. It's still viable, but dipping cleric is generally superior.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Fighter
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    Sorcerer/Fighter
    A sorcerer who dips fighter is gaining access to action surge at second level. The ability to cast potentially 3 spells a turn is potent. This is a solid dip for a sorcerer who wants to nova. Picking up champion would go well with a build that used a lot of up-cast scorching rays, doubling the crit chance of each ray, and still allow access to ninth level spells at 20. Since sorcerers are already proficient in con saves, taking first level in fighter isn't as beneficial, granting only the heavy armor for increased AC. I'd wait until sorcerer 5-6 before considering going for action surge.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Monk
    Show
    Sorcerer/Monk
    A sorcerer who dips Monk is MAD and has little to gain. There is nothing to gain here that couldn't be acheived better elsewhere. Best avoided.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Paladin
    Show
    Sorcerer/Paladin
    A sorcerer who dips paladin gains a fighting style and smite, as well as potentially extra atack and aura of protection. This is again probably the best multiclass in 5e currently. With just two levels of paladin the sorcerer becomes melee capable with the ability to quicken spells and follow it up with a smite, or GFB/BB smite. This combination is popular with 2 or 6 levels of paladin, but can really work in any spread. Quickened GFB on a fire based draconic sorcerer is one of the best bonus action attacks in the game adding both str/dex and cha to damage. It is action economy heaven for a gish that can hold it's own and has lots of slots for smiting. It is also very tanky with ability to quicken cure wounds on itself, and ability to cast shield spell. It's hard to screw this up.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Ranger
    Show
    Sorcerer/Ranger
    A sorcerer who dips ranger gains a skill, some proficiencies, spells, and a fighting style. Due to the MADness there is very little reason to go this route on a primary sorcerer. Best left to niche builds.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Rogue
    Show
    Sorcerer/Rogue
    A sorcerer who dips rogue gains some skills, expertise, and cunning action. If the party lacks any skill monkey's this could be viable to help get you there. It could certainly help you become a party face with your high cha, but would probably be better if you got the skills elsewhere, such as bard to continue casting. It isn't MAD, so it doesn't gimp the build at all.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Warlock
    Show
    Sorcerer/Warlock
    A sorcerer who dips warlock gains a fantastic at will cantrip, as well as some cool invocations and potentially a pact. This is one of the best dips for a sorcerer, as in just two levels he can get the full blasting power of the warlock without losing much. This build can whip out two eldritch blasts a round via quicken, or an eldritch blast and scorching ray,greatly outpacing a standard warlock's damage output. Extra benefits come in the form of using the warlock slots to refill sorcery points, and plus up sorcerer slots. Given a long enough short rest spam, a sorcerer could have an excess of spell slots to start the day via converting warlock slots to points and then those points to sorcerer spells. Pact of the Tome could add a good deal of versatilty to the limited spell list of the sorceer. Great dip for typically 2-4 levels. It is hard to screw up as long as it takes Agonizing Blast.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer/Wizard
    Show
    Sorcerer/Wizard
    A sorcerer who dips wizard gains some subclass features that could potentially aid in casting. Since the sorcerer list is pretty similar there isn't all that much to gain there, but the spells prepared and rituals can help make up for some sorcerers lack in versatility. This is best left for niche builds.

    Spoiler: Warlock
    Show
    The warlock is a versatile class that can serve a variety of roles depending on the pact and patron taken. Blade locks can serve as melee damage or tanks, or even potentially ranged martial damage if a magic ranged weapon is available. Tome or chain locks more commonly act as blasters or controls. Their limited spell slots, leave them just casting Eldritch Blast with the majority of their actions. The plinking power of Eldritch Blast is unmatched as a cantrip with the Agonizing Blast invocation and often Hex. Throw in Repelling Blast invocation and you have some substantial battlefield control. Warlock multiclasses often include first level in a martial class for medium or heavy armor, especially for blade locks, or just a 2 level dip for the blasting power. The lack of stacking spell slots with other full casters can be a serious gimp to a build with mixed amounts of warlock and another caster.

    Key breakpoints are: 2(Agonizing Blast, another invocation), 3-4 (pact-ASI), 5(extra attack for blade, 3rd level spells)
    Spoiler: Warlock/Barbarian
    Show
    Warlock/Barbarian
    A warlock who dips barbarian does so likely at first level for con saves and more hit points. While it is a bit counter-intuitive to combine barbarian with a caster, the warlock comes equipped with some long duration spells that lack concentration, which can go really well with a barbarian's rage. Armor of Agathys is made even better once combined with resistance to damage, effectively doubling how long it holds up. Fire Shield comes online much later, but also can be cast before raging. These thorns type effects make the barbarian's reckless attack seem like a win-win. It's great when it works, but may be a bit behind the power curve at various levels, or find itself unable to address the current challenge with its typical tactic. Best when combined with Fiend and blade locks.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Bard
    Show
    Warlock/Bard
    A warlock who dips bard gains some skills, jack-of-all trades, inspiration, and some spells. The cha dependence works really well here, but there isn't a whole lot of obvious synergy. The bard's features are good, but don't really compliment a primary warlock. The lack of slot stacking will likely just put you behind. This is much better as a Bard/Warlock. The SADness keeps it from being purple.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Cleric
    Show
    Warlock/Cleric
    A warlock who dips cleric gains some different spells as well as cool domain features. Both medium and heavy armor are upgrades for the warlock. Just level 1 cleric spells add some versatility to the warlock, and there can be some interesting combinations with domain powers. For example life domain increases the amount a warlock can heal himself with the Vampiric Touch spell. Unfortunately all cleric spells will key off wisdom, even when cast with warlock slots. There is a lot of strength for a 1-2 level dip here, despite the inherit MADness.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Druid
    Show
    Warlock/Druid
    A warlock who dips druid gains access to some different spells and wildshape. Wildshape would be useful for stealth/exploration only, but the spells can add some versatilty to a warlock's kit. Medium armor would be nice, if it didn't come with the no metal restriction. Armor of Shadow's is the way to go for AC. This isn't horrible, but it has the curse of not being as good as the cleric dip. It is also MAD.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Fighter
    Show
    Warlock/Fighter
    A warlock who dips fighter likely does so at first level for con saves and heavy armor. This is a very common tactic for bladelocks who want to use str based weapons, so they can dump dex, making them less MAD. The proficiencies alone are invaluable, especially the con save to maintain concentration on things like hex and darkness. It is recommended to switch to warlock after level one, and get extra attack as soon as possible. Any time after that the warlock can pick up second level of fighter for action surge. Could potentially take it to fighter 4.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Monk
    Show
    Warlock/Monk
    A warlock who dips monk gains monk features at the cost of heavy MADness. Best left to niche builds.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Paladin
    Show
    Warlock/Paladin
    A warlock who dips paladin gains heavy armor at first level, a fighting style and smite at second. Just two levels in paladin is an amazing add on to a warlock. Like fighter, it actually decreases MADness for a bladelock, negating the need for dex. It lacks the con saves of fighter, but makes up for it with smite. Using warlock slots to smite is very potent for a character that can manage a lot of short rests. This is definitely a very strong option, probably best kept to just a couple levels, but also viable with 6 levels of paladin.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Ranger
    Show
    Warlock/Ranger
    A warlock who dips ranger gains a fighting style, some different spells, and potentially a hunter ability. Ranger is probably the least attractive martial dip for a warlock. MADness aside, Hunter's Mark and Hex are redundant, and there is no obvious synergy. This is possible for niche builds, but paladin and fighter are better options for a warlock.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Rogue
    Show
    Warlock/Rogue
    A warlock who dips rogue gains a skill, expertise, cunning action, and potentially an archetype. Sneak attack can work with a blade lock. Devil's Sight could be great on any sneaky type, especially an assassin. Cunning Action is good on anyone. Overall this could add to the build. There are worse options.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Sorcerer
    Show
    Warlock/Sorcerer
    A warlock who dips sorcerer gains metamagic. Metamagic plus Eldritch blast is some of the best nearly at will damage, capable of firing out twice what a normal warlock could in a round costing only two sorcery points. A warlock dipping sorcerer would need more sorcerer levels than the inverse, in order to have a fairly good sorcery point pool, but otherwise can operate quite well. The ability to convert warlock spells into sorcery points works better/faster on this build than the opposite. Keep boosting cha with agonizing blast, and you can't go wrong.

    Spoiler: Warlock/Wizard
    Show
    Warlock/Wizard
    A warlock who dips wizard gains little in comparison to other options. There are some good subclass features that could be appealing, but overall most of what could be achieved with this is done better by a Warlock/Sorcerer. This is best left for niche builds.

    Spoiler: Wizard
    Show
    The wizard as always is a powerhouse of magical might. The class typically serves as a controller, blaster, or the guy that everyone else has to protect. His kit comes on a fragile chassis that is greatly toughened by a single level dip at first level in a martial class. Other aims for wizard multiclasses are either adding a little versatility to the spell list or gish builds. Wizard progression is linear, and continuous providing little opportunities or incentives to multiclass at any given level.

    Key breakpoints are: 2(subclass feature), 4 (ASI), 5(3rd level spells), any spell level of choice, 17(9th level spells), and 18(spell mastery).
    Spoiler: Wizard/Barbarian
    Show
    Wizard/Barbarian
    A wizard who dips barbarian gains little benefit in comparison to other choices. Rage is like an off switch for the entire wizard class. This is best avoided.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Bard
    Show
    Wizard/Bard
    A wizard who dips bard gains some skills, and jack of all trades. The spell slot progression keeps this from being terrible, but there is no obvious reason to leave wizard. It is MAD.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Cleric
    Show
    Wizard/Cleric
    A wizard who dips cleric gains some different spells, and cool domain features. There are several domains that augment all casting in ways a pure wizard can't achieve. Heavy armor is a great boon to the wizard, and this is the best way to get it without getting behind on slots.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Druid
    Show
    Wizard/Druid
    A wizard who dips druid gains some different spells and wildshape. Wildshape is pretty useless in combat due to its poor scaling. There is little reason to do this, and probably best left to niche builds.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Fighter
    Show
    Wizard/Fighter
    A wizard who dips fighter likely does so at first level for heavy armor and con save proficiency. Action surge can come later, likely after level 5 wizard, to enable extra nova ability. It one of the best dips for a wizard, and probably best left at 2 levels, possibly 6 if the wizard wants to be more melee focused.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Monk
    Show
    Wizard/Monk
    A wizard who dips monk has little to gain, at the cost of heavy MADness. I'd avoid this altogether.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Paladin
    Show
    Wizard/Paladin
    A wizard who dips paladin picks up heavy armor at first level, and smite at second level. This would be good if there were any reason to do this over Sorcerer/Paladin. As it stands it does almost the same without the option to quicken, and at the extra cost of MAD. Itís a cheap imitation, best avoided.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Ranger
    Show
    Wizard/Ranger
    A wizard who dips ranger picks up some skills, different spells, and proficiencies for weapon options. Itís MAD, and doesnít lend itself to anything well. Best left for niche builds.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Rogue
    Show
    Wizard/Rogue
    A wizard who dips rogue gains some skills, expertise, cunning action, and possibly an archetype. This is a common combination with wizard and arcane trickster. Bladesinger is good choice for rogues, who lack typically use light armor already. Could also be viable with assassin, in conjunction with spells capable of critting such as scorching ray.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Sorcerer
    Show
    Wizard/Sorcerer
    A wizard who dips sorcerer is picks up metamagic at 3rd level. This is viable at serious cost of progression. Metamagic can be great in combination with wizard spells, but it is MAD, and very tough to choose when to take those levels of sorcerer.

    Spoiler: Wizard/Warlock
    Show
    Wizard/Warlock
    A wizard who dips warlock gains some different spells, short rest slots, possibly invocations and a pact. There are some interesting combinations here but most are too MAD to be seriously competent. A good example of a niche build is a necromancer that picks up 5 levels in warlock in order to use short rest slots to cast more animate dead's per day. It is gimmicky and requires an excess number of short rest to even compete with the slots generated by taking more levels in wizard. This is probably best left for niche builds.

    Spoiler: Terms/Definitions
    Show
    SAD: Single Attribute Dependence. This means the character can use only one stat to boost multiple abilities from multiple classes. An example is a Sorcerer/Warlock boosting cha to boost casting in both of his classes. This is a very strong thing to have when multiclassing.
    MAD: Multiple Attribute Dependence. This means the character has multiple key attributes that either need to be high or at least 13. This puts tension on the characters stats for point buy and stress on what to increase for ASIs. MAD characters generally start weaker than SAD ones, having to sacrifice stats in one area over another. The best MAD characters are ones that can safely get away with leaving a 13 or 14 in their "off stat," reducing stress on the character's ASIs.

    Spoiler: Current To-Do List
    Show
    -Add color coded breakpoints
    -Add pictures
    -Adjust for community input
    -Flesh out shorter entries
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2017-04-23 at 09:18 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    [Reserved for future edits.]

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    [Reserved. One last one, due to the breadth of the content.]

    Please feel free to comment below.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I haven't had time just yet to fully examine your analysis, but, I would like to say bravo. Thank you for providing what could be an excellent tool for our community.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptAl View Post
    I haven't had time just yet to fully examine your analysis, but, I would like to say bravo. Thank you for providing what could be an excellent tool for our community.
    I will second this.

    At first glance, everything looks great and all the breakpoints make sense.

    Well done!

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    Gastronomie's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    This is truly an amazing guide, and now that it's here, it's actually more of a question why no one has ever thought of creating this before. It's truly helpful.

    However, of course, it's impossible for one person to look through all 144 possibilities in here. Whenever we think up ideas, we should comment them in this thread so PeteNutButter can evaluate them, and if considered viable, edit them into the original posts.

    For instance, you rated Wizard/Warlock as Black and Purple, and while I generally agree with that rating, you might add that depending on how generous the DM is, Necromancers may benefit from going Warlock 5 for lots and lots more uses of Animate Dead. These sorts of minor but still fun gimmicks could be listed in each column, to offer some build ideas.
    Spoiler: Avatar
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    ^ Fantastic avatar made by Professor Gnoll. Yaya Tokaz, from the manga "Kukul and Nagi". ^
    Spoiler: Quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
    Extended Signature: Homebrew Stuff
    Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    The Eldritch Knight cross-classes with the Pladain 2 better than the champion, as you can nova for an average of around 150 damage at top level, even though it comes online at level 5 and really hits the ground hard at level 7. Level 13, however, is when it truly starts to shine, as one can smite 6 times in a round via action surge. While not nearly as sustainable as the 4 attacks a single-classed fighter would get, you can easily surpass the damage of certain 9th-level spells (power word kill) on single target.

    Edit: Eldritch knight 12 and Ancients Paladin 8 grants epic magic resistance, the same first-turn burst damage and slightly more spell slots, but you'll only ever learn up to 2nd level spells.
    Last edited by SillyPopeNachos; 2016-10-10 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Further Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    Is it soap? Please say it's soap.
    "So help me, Evil Overlord, if you don't surrender, I will give you a bath!"
    "Gods no! Anything but that! I surrender! I surrender!"

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Youíve done a great job with this, but as a monk fanatic, let me add some arguments for some unlikely monk multiclass options.

    Monk 12/Bladesinger Wizard 8
    Example Build: Wood Elf Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 8

    Multiclassing to wizard is basically the best option for a gish, the wizard spell list offers more spells to self-buff from than any other class. The important thing to remember is that all of these buffing spells like Shield, Mirror Image, Haste, Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, etc. are not dependant on your spellcasting ability score, so you donít have to increase it with ASI's and you can just pump up Dex and Wis as you would normally do on a monk.

    Bladesinger gives you some nice combat perks, adding your Int to AC, concentration checks, and increasing your already fast monk speed. And if you play the AL mod DDEX1-6 ďThe Scroll ThiefĒ, you can end up with the Headband of Intellect for an Int of 19. I did this with my Monk/Wizard and his current AC while Bladesinging is 20, will be eventually 24 with max Dex and Wis, add on +5 to that with Shield or whatever. You get the picture, heís crazy good.

    Shadow Monk 12/Fiend-Chain Warlock 8
    Example Build: Half-Elf (Drow) Str 8 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 14

    As you noted, this has a nice synergy with shadow monk so you can actually see through your Darkness with Devilís Sight. Go Pact of the Chain and get an Imp familiar with Devilís Sight as well and he can carry around a little pebble that you cast Darkness on to have mobile Darkness that you place and move strategically wherever you want. Darkness isnít as big a problem for the rest of the party as some might think.

    You can keep Darkness off your spellcasterís targets and put it on foes that you and your melee attackers are targeting (or just keep it on yourself when you move in and out). Because the Blinded condition from Darkness give an attacker disadvantage on attacks but their blinded targets give their attackers advantage to hit them, it all cancels out anyway. But of course your Monk/Warlock shrouded in Darkness with Devilís Sight will get advantage on attacks, be able to move away without creating AoO, canít be targeted by most spells, and attackers will have disadvantage to attack him. A very nice situation for your gish.

    As with the Monk/Wizard, your buffing spells donít benefit from pumping up your spellcasting ability so you can just pump Dex and Wis as normal. Resilient Con is a nice feat for this build to maintain concentration on their Darkness, etc. Going Half-Drow gives you an extra way to cast Darkness without having to spend ki or a spell slot.

    Monk 8/Paladin 4/Draconic Sorcerer 8
    Example Build: Human Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 13
    Start 1st level as Sorcerer for Con saves for concentration, go to monk at 2nd level.

    As you said, a monk/paladin build is MAD as hell but with the good old regular human getting +1 in every ability score, you can make a viable monk/paladin/sorcerer. You pump Dex and Wis as usual, no need to pump your spellcasting ability as you are just using your sorcerer spell slots for buffs and divine smites. As we know, we can twin Booming Blade or quicken Green-Flame Blade for some metamagic fun. You can smite with your monk, or smite AND stun. Just have fun as a Holy Warrior with radiant fists of fury!

    So these are just 3 gish builds for monk that one can have fun with. Even though monk is MAD, you donít have to be crazy to try out some fun monk/spellcaster combos!
    Last edited by Fflewddur Fflam; 2016-10-01 at 12:56 AM.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    This is great. I would also add options for a third multiclass. Maybe just forbspecific builds.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    This is truly an amazing guide, and now that it's here, it's actually more of a question why no one has ever thought of creating this before. It's truly helpful.

    However, of course, it's impossible for one person to look through all 144 possibilities in here. Whenever we think up ideas, we should comment them in this thread so PeteNutButter can evaluate them, and if considered viable, edit them into the original posts.

    For instance, you rated Wizard/Warlock as Black and Purple, and while I generally agree with that rating, you might add that depending on how generous the DM is, Necromancers may benefit from going Warlock 5 for lots and lots more uses of Animate Dead. These sorts of minor but still fun gimmicks could be listed in each column, to offer some build ideas.
    Thanks everyone for all the positive feedback. I'd love to add more build ideas into each individual entry. So please keep them coming!
    Spoiler: EK/Paladin?
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by SillyPopeNachos View Post
    The Eldritch Knight cross-classes with the Pladain 2 better than the champion, as you can nova for an average of around 150 damage at top level, even though it comes online at level 5 and really hits the ground hard at level 7. Level 13, however, is when it truly starts to shine, as one can smite 6 times in a round via action surge. While not nearly as sustainable as the 4 attacks a single-classed fighter would get, you can easily surpass the damage of certain 9th-level spells (power word kill) on single target.
    I can edit the wording to include that, but I'm not sure it justifies changing any colors. It seems like a niche build that would probably come on line pretty late. It can't do anything a paladin/fighter does better/more frequently until level 13 when he can have both smite and 3 attacks. I see EK/Paladin as significantly more viable when combined with some full caster to round out the spell slots. What does the community think?

    Spoiler: Monk Ideas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fflewddur Fflam View Post
    Youíve done a great job with this, but as a monk fanatic, let me add some arguments for some unlikely monk multiclass options.

    Monk 12/Bladesinger Wizard 8
    Example Build: Wood Elf Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 8

    Multiclassing to wizard is basically the best option for a gish, the wizard spell list offers more spells to self-buff from than any other class. The important thing to remember is that all of these buffing spells like Shield, Mirror Image, Haste, Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, etc. are not dependant on your spellcasting ability score, so you donít have to increase it with ASI's and you can just pump up Dex and Wis as you would normally do on a monk.

    Bladesinger gives you some nice combat perks, adding your Int to AC, concentration checks, and increasing your already fast monk speed. And if you play the AL mod DDEX1-6 ďThe Scroll ThiefĒ, you can end up with the Headband of Intellect for an Int of 19. I did this with my Monk/Wizard and his current AC while Bladesinging is 20, will be eventually 24 with max Dex and Wis, add on +5 to that with Shield or whatever. You get the picture, heís crazy good.

    Shadow Monk 12/Fiend-Chain Warlock 8
    Example Build: Half-Elf (Drow) Str 8 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 14

    As you noted, this has a nice synergy with shadow monk so you can actually see through your Darkness with Devilís Sight. Go Pact of the Chain and get an Imp familiar with Devilís Sight as well and he can carry around a little pebble that you cast Darkness on to have mobile Darkness that you place and move strategically wherever you want. Darkness isnít as big a problem for the rest of the party as some might think.

    You can keep Darkness off your spellcasterís targets and put it on foes that you and your melee attackers are targeting (or just keep it on yourself when you move in and out). Because the Blinded condition from Darkness give an attacker disadvantage on attacks but their blinded targets give their attackers advantage to hit them, it all cancels out anyway. But of course your Monk/Warlock shrouded in Darkness with Devilís Sight will get advantage on attacks, be able to move away without creating AoO, canít be targeted by most spells, and attackers will have disadvantage to attack him. A very nice situation for your gish.

    As with the Monk/Wizard, your buffing spells donít benefit from pumping up your spellcasting ability so you can just pump Dex and Wis as normal. Resilient Con is a nice feat for this build to maintain concentration on their Darkness, etc. Going Half-Drow gives you an extra way to cast Darkness without having to spend ki or a spell slot.

    Monk 8/Paladin 4/Draconic Sorcerer 8
    Example Build: Human Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 13
    Start 1st level as Sorcerer for Con saves for concentration, go to monk at 2nd level.

    As you said, a monk/paladin build is MAD as hell but with the good old regular human getting +1 in every ability score, you can make a viable monk/paladin/sorcerer. You pump Dex and Wis as usual, no need to pump your spellcasting ability as you are just using your sorcerer spell slots for buffs and divine smites. As we know, we can twin Booming Blade or quicken Green-Flame Blade for some metamagic fun. You can smite with your monk, or smite AND stun. Just have fun as a Holy Warrior with radiant fists of fury!

    So these are just 3 gish builds for monk that one can have fun with. Even though monk is MAD, you donít have to be crazy to try out some fun monk/spellcaster combos!
    Thank you for your input, and I'd love to incorporate these all into the comments. I'll freely admit that certain classes haven't seen much play in my groups, making most of my decisions based purely on theory crafting, monk being one of them. But let's dissect your creative, fun, and MAD monk ideas.

    Monk/Wizard: I greatly refute that wizard is the best class for a gish. IMO it will always be sorcerer with access to pretty much all the same spells, but the ability to swing and still buff in the same round with quicken, or twin things like haste. Bladesinger is a good way to add AC to anything, but is it worth the MADness? The loss of con really hurts a d8 hit die class that tends to be in melee, and +2 AC isn't anything to write home about. You are also doubling up on extra attack. The headband of int can't be considered as any build could be viable if a character had a bunch of 19s. What you end up with is an AC that is comparable to any other front liner, when bladesinging, and a still low AC when not. As long as this character is boosting dex his AC is the same as a standard wizard with mage armor on. I'm sure the build operates just fine, especially with an item giving a free 19, but it is definitely niche.

    Monk/Warlock: For starters I'd probably never leave monk just two levels shy of Diamond Soul. You mention wanting to pick up resilient con, why not just take diamond soul and get all saves? Admittedly it does come rather late. As mentioned in the guide the Monk, doesn't do the darkness/Devil's Sight combo any better than any other class. It still takes an action to work, still doesn't always work, and still can alienate the team. The fact that advantage and disadvantage cancel out is moot point if your DM adjudicates that you can't attack what you can't see. Your party should essentially be picking a 5' square they think the foe is in based likely on perception, and attempt to attack there. A foe who does any movement should be very hard to pinpoint in the fray of battle with total blindness. In the meantime you'll have less AC and hit points than a standard monk, and until you pickup warlock, no benefit. The imp thing is a good idea. This does work, I just don't think its optimal.

    Monk/Pal/Sorc: This one seems to just be a sorcerer/paladin that threw monk in because the player liked monk. I mean the competition for bonus action gets pretty heavy with all the monk's existing options and now quicken spells. Quickened and twinned GFB/BB are great on a sorcerer paladin as ways to get a bonus action attack, and a way to imitate extra attack on separate foes. On a monk the, quickening a GFB will often deal less damage than using flurry. The only thing I see this build offering is a bit more mobility, and stunning strikes with a low DC. AC and hit points are lower than a paladin/sorcerer. It lacks the amazing saves of aura of protection, and has some very difficult progression between the 3 classes. It could be viable, but definitely a niche build.

    Unless the community disagrees with me, I don't think these call for any changing colors. But please keep the ideas flowing.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2016-10-01 at 08:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Rogue 3/Barbarian 17 can be very effective with a two handed weapon, relying on Assassin crits with Inproved Critical (half orc helps) and the Great Axe for some devastating surprise rounds on a scout that can hold their own if caught

    EDIT: also don't neglect to mention Archery style as a benefit for a 1 level fighter dip for a Rogue/Fighter trying to be an assassin/sniper

    Also, some exploration of 3+ class build might be good later, as they tend to be 'dip repeatedly for good stuff'. I've played both a Rogue 6/Cleric 1/Bard 10/Warlock 3 and a Warlock 11/Sorcerer 4/Fighter 2/Rogue 3 (not leveled in that order of course) that were fun and functional, and a player at my table is doing a (admittedly MAD) monk/rogue/Warlock that is operating great
    Last edited by Naanomi; 2016-10-01 at 09:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Rogue 3/Barbarian 17 can be very effective with a two handed weapon, relying on Assassin crits with Inproved Critical (half orc helps) and the Great Axe for some devastating surprise rounds on a scout that can hold their own if caught

    EDIT: also don't neglect to mention Archery style as a benefit for a 1 level fighter dip for a Rogue/Fighter trying to be an assassin/sniper

    Also, some exploration of 3+ class build might be good later, as they tend to be 'dip repeatedly for good stuff'. I've played both a Rogue 6/Cleric 1/Bard 10/Warlock 3 and a Warlock 11/Sorcerer 4/Fighter 2/Rogue 3 (not leveled in that order of course) that were fun and functional, and a player at my table is doing a (admittedly MAD) monk/rogue/Warlock that is operating great
    I updated the Barb/Rogue section to mention this, although I think it's overall a little hard/rare to pull off surprise on melee, especially lacking spells. It is also outpaced by fighter, despite the increased criticals of barbarian, the extra attack is more valuable. I had designed a build around that idea here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ick-Nova-Build

    I updated the Rogue/Fighter section as well, regarding the archery style.

    I'd like to include 3 classes, actually mentioned one or two during the guide, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. If I add colored breakpoints, it might demonstrate that many classes offer great benefits within the first 4 levels.

    Thanks for the input!
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2016-10-01 at 11:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Haven't read through yet (just finished opening all spoiler boxes), but damn - that was a lot of work.

    BTW - The chart demonstrates well how the Cha-based classes are like an Indian buffet - each item mixes well with each other item.

    I wish the same were true for the other abilities. Everytime I try to think up a new build, it always gets drawn towards the Cha classes like some kind of gravity well...

    Edit: You wrote a paragraph for each of the 132 possible class combinations?

    Last edited by odigity; 2016-10-01 at 01:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    a player at my table is doing a (admittedly MAD) monk/rogue/Warlock that is operating great
    I am running this build too. Monk 6/Warlock (2-5)/Rogue (9-12). Works really well. Hex, Sneak attack, invocations, and most of the Monk goodies.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Thank you!

    I'm not a multiclasser, so the frequent questions on multiclassing in my guides have always been a bit tedious, and I've been aware of the fact that my bias can limit my helpfulness in those situations.

    But now we have a real multiclassing guide! A completely thorough and well written one, at that! I'm so happy!

    Edit: And making each bit of info a collapsible box was a good idea for this guide. It makes it much easier to find what you want.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2016-10-01 at 03:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    My vision: scouting ahead of the party is the half orc assassin/Barbarian. He is wearing no armor, has reasonable Dex (16) and expertise in stealth, traveling at normal speeds (wolf totem). He may be coming from a weird angle due to his unmatched climbing abilities. He spots his foes.

    When he is 55 feet away (elk totem), he rages and charges with his great axe. He gets three attacks (GWM would almost guarantee the third, but Tiger totem ensures it) with advantage, each dealing 6d12+9 damage, plus potentially magic weapon and poison boosts (as an assassin he knows how to apply poison), and if the math works out to do so another +10 with GWM.

    If foes survive, he may still be getting some surprise attacks for a second similar round if they lose initiative (he has advantage and a good bonus to the roll); and he can 55 speed/cunning action-dash back to the party or stick it out with general barbarian-ness while they catch up. Potential for grappling a foe if the survivors think about escaping

    Pointbuy: 17/15/16/9/9/9
    Totem: elk, wolf, tiger
    Stealth, perception, athletics, (+3 of choice) (expertise in stealth and athletics), thief tools
    ASI: +1 Dex/Str, +2 Str, GWM, Alert

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Cool beans!
    Actually I was thinking of writing up something very similar. But I gotta admit, you did it better. ;)

    What I'd yet edit into the combos: a line for "Qualification", i.e. how easy or hard it is to meet the ability requirements.
    So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
    On four hours sleep a night.
    With no sex.
    You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Thanks everyone for all the positive feedback. I'd love to add more build ideas into each individual entry. So please keep them coming!
    Spoiler: EK/Paladin?
    Show


    I can edit the wording to include that, but I'm not sure it justifies changing any colors. It seems like a niche build that would probably come on line pretty late. It can't do anything a paladin/fighter does better/more frequently until level 13 when he can have both smite and 3 attacks. I see EK/Paladin as significantly more viable when combined with some full caster to round out the spell slots. What does the community think?

    Spoiler: Monk Ideas
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    Thank you for your input, and I'd love to incorporate these all into the comments. I'll freely admit that certain classes haven't seen much play in my groups, making most of my decisions based purely on theory crafting, monk being one of them. But let's dissect your creative, fun, and MAD monk ideas.

    Monk/Wizard: I greatly refute that wizard is the best class for a gish. IMO it will always be sorcerer with access to pretty much all the same spells, but the ability to swing and still buff in the same round with quicken, or twin things like haste. Bladesinger is a good way to add AC to anything, but is it worth the MADness? The loss of con really hurts a d8 hit die class that tends to be in melee, and +2 AC isn't anything to write home about. You are also doubling up on extra attack. The headband of int can't be considered as any build could be viable if a character had a bunch of 19s. What you end up with is an AC that is comparable to any other front liner, when bladesinging, and a still low AC when not. As long as this character is boosting dex his AC is the same as a standard wizard with mage armor on. I'm sure the build operates just fine, especially with an item giving a free 19, but it is definitely niche.

    Monk/Warlock: For starters I'd probably never leave monk just two levels shy of Diamond Soul. You mention wanting to pick up resilient con, why not just take diamond soul and get all saves? Admittedly it does come rather late. As mentioned in the guide the Monk, doesn't do the darkness/Devil's Sight combo any better than any other class. It still takes an action to work, still doesn't always work, and still can alienate the team. The fact that advantage and disadvantage cancel out is moot point if your DM adjudicates that you can't attack what you can't see. Your party should essentially be picking a 5' square they think the foe is in based likely on perception, and attempt to attack there. A foe who does any movement should be very hard to pinpoint in the fray of battle with total blindness. In the meantime you'll have less AC and hit points than a standard monk, and until you pickup warlock, no benefit. The imp thing is a good idea. This does work, I just don't think its optimal.

    Monk/Pal/Sorc: This one seems to just be a sorcerer/paladin that threw monk in because the player liked monk. I mean the competition for bonus action gets pretty heavy with all the monk's existing options and now quicken spells. Quickened and twinned GFB/BB are great on a sorcerer paladin as ways to get a bonus action attack, and a way to imitate extra attack on separate foes. On a monk the, quickening a GFB will often deal less damage than using flurry. The only thing I see this build offering is a bit more mobility, and stunning strikes with a low DC. AC and hit points are lower than a paladin/sorcerer. It lacks the amazing saves of aura of protection, and has some very difficult progression between the 3 classes. It could be viable, but definitely a niche build.

    Unless the community disagrees with me, I don't think these call for any changing colors. But please keep the ideas flowing.
    So, just to refute some of your refutations!

    Monk/Wizard.
    The sorcerer certainly doesn't get nearly all the spells a wizard gets, not even close, and wizard can make a far better gish because of this (especially with a wizard subclass designed for gishing, Bladesinging). Sorcerers don't get Fireshield which is probably the best buff for a gish ever (in no small part because it doesn't require concentration). Doubling up on Extra Attack is unavoidable with Bladesinger because you need to get to at least 7th level to get those great 4th level spells like Fireshield.
    Having +2 AC is never something to sneeze at in 5e, either. If this were the case, no one would ever use shields.

    Monk/Warlock
    You talk about not wanting a monk to be two levels shy of Diamond Soul, and I get that but most likely you are never ever getting to level 14 monk in a multiclass build. Why? Because, first of all, you are not going all 14 levels of monk before you take your other multiclass levels of warlock (or whatever) and because of this, you literally would have to hit level 20 to get to level 14 monk. I've never met anyone with a level 20 character in 5e, certainly none of the officially released adventures or material supports it, so we are talking about a hypothetical level that would be great to get to, but we simply aren't going to get to.

    I've got a single class Open Hand Monk that I would love to get to level 17 for Quivering Palm, don't know if I will ever be able to get him there, though. That's the problem you always have to consider, "sure I would like to get this high level feature, but will I ever realistically get there? Probably not." THAT'S why I recommend putting Resilient Con on a character such as this monk/warlock, because it's something that can benefit the character through much of his adventuring life, not waiting for a 14th level monk ability that he's never going to see because he's never going to get to 20th level to pick it up.

    Also, if you have a DM that equates Darkness or the Invisible condition with being "hidden" then you have a bad DM who doesn't understand the rules. It does not equate with being hidden and you have to take the Hide action while invisible or in darkness to actually be hidden. A good spell and strategy like using Darkness cannot be dismissed because of a DM that doesn't understand the rules.

    On my monk/paladin/sorcerer build, I plead guilty as charged. I just wanted to make a monk that could do divine smites. So sue me!
    Last edited by Fflewddur Fflam; 2016-10-01 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    The fighter class is a great class that is unique as the only class giving more than 2 attacks with the attack action. The fighter typically acts as a melee or ranged damage dealer, or a tank. They have some battlefield control options via grapple and shove, possibly aided by feats and maneuvers. They are also the only class that grants extra ASIs, notably at levels 6 and 14.
    Rogues also get an extra ASI at 10, which is why Rogue 12 / Fighter 8 still yields 7 ASIs, just like pure Fighter.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Rogues also get an extra ASI at 10, which is why Rogue 12 / Fighter 8 still yields 7 ASIs, just like pure Fighter.
    You're right. I've edited it.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Great great guide! Trully, congrats for the effort you put into this!

    Now, I will try to contribute, hopefully.

    First off, I think you have the ratings of fighter/warlock and warlock/fighter backwards. From what I was able to understand from the X/y & Y/x section, warlock/fighter refers to a character with more warlock levels, and fighter/warlock refers to a character with more fighter levels, right? Eh well, if that is the case and I didnt get it all wrong, I think that a fighter dip on a warlock is of more value than a warlock dip on a fighter, meaning that the warlock/fighter should have a better rating than the fighter/warlock. And ofc I am refering to a bladelock (or at least a warlock built for melee).

    Secondly, I am a bit puzzled over the gold rating. To me, this rating should be applied only when a certain multiclass combo outperforms the single class (which is very hard to judge), or when a dip is essential because the class is lackluster for the role we want to fill. So, for example, a sorcerer/warlock should not be gold, as we cannot objectively say that this combo outperforms the pure sorcerer (yes, it has better at will damage, but delayed spell progression; yes, some people think it's all the money, others dont value it so much because they want to get better spells faster). Alternatively, the warlock/fighter should be gold, assuming it refers to a warlock who wants to be used in melee (and this is not a gimmicky build, as pact of the blade was clearly made for this, ie building a warlock for melee is a valid and even suggested by the mechanics approach). And because the warlock class is a bit lackluster on its own to be used on melee, the fighter dip is pretty much very much needed, and we can certainly say that it is perhaps the most efficient way to go about it (certainly better than going pure warlock), so that is why the warlock/fighter should be gold IMO.
    So........ gold ratings should be applied IMO, only to multiclass combinations that outperform the singleclass, NOT in one or two aspects, but on the whole. Meaning, when the single class is not enough on its own to support a function (NOT gimmick) that it is supposed and suggested to have (ie, a legitimate suggested option; going melee with a warlock is such an option; building the strongest possible at will is not for a sorcerer, that is us putting effort to produce sth we want).

    Hence, besides the warlock/fighter, and perhaps the trickery cleric/rogue, I wouldnt think that there are many gold options. Many skyblue or even blue options might even be better than the two gold options I suggest above, but that does not matter, as the gold option should only point out when a dip is essentially necessary and strictly better than the single class in regard to a ''recommended'' approach (and not a gimmick) of the class/combat role you intended to play.
    (I was tempted to suggest a gold rating for strogue/fighter and other multiclass assassin builds, but that would lead us to a more gimmicky territory and it is not the same as with the warlock/fighter or the trickery cleric/rogue, where in those two last cases the class/archetype features cannot sufficiently support the character.)

    ------------------------------------------

    Also, the wizard/cleric (pick a domain that grants you heavy armor prof) has some extra value for enchenters, I would think, for the ability to use Sanctuary/Hypnotic Gaze/Instinctive Charm + Blur, all while clad in heavy armor (athletics proficiency through background). Perhaps this should be skyblue instead of blue? Meaning that since we are mainly a wizard (as one level of cleric would be enough for this), then we should point out that the enchanter is the one who can make the most of this specific multiclass combination?
    ps: Haven't really thought this through, it is just one of the many ideas I have shamelessly stolen from this forum and saved it in my dnd folder to potentially use it in the future
    Last edited by Corran; 2016-10-01 at 11:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Great great guide! Trully, congrats for the effort you put into this!

    Now, I will try to contribute, hopefully.

    First off, I think you have the ratings of fighter/warlock and warlock/fighter backwards. From what I was able to understand from the X/y & Y/x section, warlock/fighter refers to a character with more warlock levels, and fighter/warlock refers to a character with more fighter levels, right? Eh well, if that is the case and I didnt get it all wrong, I think that a fighter dip on a warlock is of more value than a warlock dip on a fighter, meaning that the warlock/fighter should have a better rating than the fighter/warlock. And ofc I am refering to a bladelock (or at least a warlock built for melee).
    I'm not sure what the issue is here. I currently have Warlock/Fighter at gold, and Fighter/Warlock blue. I totally agree in that a bladelock practically needs to start fighter (or paladin).
    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Secondly, I am a bit puzzled over the gold rating. To me, this rating should be applied only when a certain multiclass combo outperforms the single class (which is very hard to judge)...
    You are suggesting changing the definition of gold. While that makes some good sense, I think you said it yourself as to why I shouldn't. Its just too hard to judge in most cases. It is easy for the community to agree that certain combinations are strong, but much harder to get a real consensus on whether they are stronger than the base class.

    Another issue I have with this is there is no class that requires a multiclass, just some subclasses. I can edit the comments under specific entries, even add key colors when combined with subclasses (such as Trickery/Rogue), but it'd be misleading to rate all cleric/rogue gold because trickery clerics are basically just bad without some help. (I'd argue they are still the worst domain, with or without MC, but that's beside the point.) It would also be confusing to those new or in a hurry, as gold ratings would end up exclusively on what are generally weaker subclasses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Also, the wizard/cleric (pick a domain that grants you heavy armor prof) has some extra value for enchanters, I would think, for the ability to use Sanctuary/Hypnotic Gaze/Instinctive Charm + Blur, all while clad in heavy armor (athletics proficiency through background). Perhaps this should be skyblue instead of blue? Meaning that since we are mainly a wizard (as one level of cleric would be enough for this), then we should point out that the enchanter is the one who can make the most of this specific multiclass combination?
    ps: Haven't really thought this through, it is just one of the many ideas I have shamelessly stolen from this forum and saved it in my dnd folder to potentially use it in the future
    That is a very good combination, and you may be right. I personally find it more attractive taking first level in cleric than taking first level in fighter, as spell slots progress with cleric. I can point out that combination for sure. I am also a fan of necromancer utilizing the very effective inflict wounds to trigger his level 2 ability. Alas it is currently Sky Blue on the chart.

    EDIT: I just realized some of the later classes apparently got copied over without the colors inside all their breakdown boxes. That was most likely a source of confusion here. I've remedied the issue.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2016-10-02 at 12:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Very nice, thank you for the effort!

    As has been mentioned, it's a bit difficult that subclasses aren't included, because some combinations work and some don't, depending on subclasses. Including sub classes would lead to a lot more work, and an unreadable table, so I understand why it's not done. Still, somebody who uses this tool to do a quick scan on possible combinations (and doesn't read all the text, just the table), might loos nice combinations.

    Oh well, don't know if anything can be done about that.

    Some words on multiclass combinations:
    - monk / wizard: the combination Quivering palm (way of the open hand 17) portent (diviner 2) is great; save or die, except for the save. Level 19 earliest though.
    - monk / warlock: I think there is more synergy than you describe. A warlock 3 dip gives cantrips (including a good ranged attack, which monk doesn't have), two invocations; for example the mentioned devils sight (for the shadow monk), but also for examle mask of many faces (disguise self at will can really help with scouting). And 2 level 2 spells which recharge at a short rest, like a reaction attack (which most monks don't have); or extra damage (hex), or extra defense and damage (Armor of Agatys); and there's the pact boon and the patron, which can give for example telepathy and an invisible familiar (for a scout type) or temporary hitpoints for a regular frontliner.
    - fighter / bard: lore bard 6 (ok, don't know if this still count as 'dip') can give powerful melee spells, like spirit guardians, the third level paladin smite, Armor of Agatys, or for a mounted combat build: find steed for a horsy.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    Very nice, thank you for the effort!

    As has been mentioned, it's a bit difficult that subclasses aren't included, because some combinations work and some don't, depending on subclasses. Including sub classes would lead to a lot more work, and an unreadable table, so I understand why it's not done. Still, somebody who uses this tool to do a quick scan on possible combinations (and doesn't read all the text, just the table), might loos nice combinations.

    Oh well, don't know if anything can be done about that.

    Some words on multiclass combinations:
    - monk / wizard: the combination Quivering palm (way of the open hand 17) portent (diviner 2) is great; save or die, except for the save. Level 19 earliest though.
    - monk / warlock: I think there is more synergy than you describe. A warlock 3 dip gives cantrips (including a good ranged attack, which monk doesn't have), two invocations; for example the mentioned devils sight (for the shadow monk), but also for examle mask of many faces (disguise self at will can really help with scouting). And 2 level 2 spells which recharge at a short rest, like a reaction attack (which most monks don't have); or extra damage (hex), or extra defense and damage (Armor of Agatys); and there's the pact boon and the patron, which can give for example telepathy and an invisible familiar (for a scout type) or temporary hitpoints for a regular frontliner.
    - fighter / bard: lore bard 6 (ok, don't know if this still count as 'dip') can give powerful melee spells, like spirit guardians, the third level paladin smite, Armor of Agatys, or for a mounted combat build: find steed for a horsy.
    Including subclasses in the chart would definitely be too difficult to work. I don't think its a big deal for most classes, as they behave pretty similarly. Warlock and cleric seem the most different based on subclass, changing roles and proficiencies.

    The quivering palm with diviner is a really cool trick. It's a hella long way to go for starting with a 13 int, probably better if someone else in the party picked it up if you don't have a wizard/he's a different school. At that level you could probably hire a hireling or a dozen... What a busted encounter that would be... a dozen diviners. DMs please don't do that to your players.

    I hear a lot of success stories with the warlock rogue. I think it is quite viable, as are potentially any two classes together. I try and keep the ratings based on the obvious in class synergy. Those things you mentioned aren't really monk strengths, just adding versatility. The ranged attack would be nice, as most monks lack a good one, but since it's cha based it'll never be more than passable without sacrificing key monk stats. Monk's answer to ranged attacks are usually javelins, sun soul, or just run up and punch them with fast movement speed.

    Fighter/Bard is a cool way to pick up a couple nice spells, but most of those could be picked up in the class the spells originally came from. Cleric for example has more obvious synergy, and comes with other goodies. I do like the find steed choice though, since otherwise you'd have to double up on extra attack with paladin 5.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Right now i'm playing a Druid of the Moon 8 / SS monk X and it works quite well, the transformation allow you to concentrate on WIS and use your animal form DEX to attack, i normally use it with a Flying Snake (19 DEX) giving me a good AC, i do have a poor HP in my animal form but the Flying Snake is a tiny creature, so you can easily get full cover and you do have a nice speed, so you will normally have enough movement to move from one cover to the other (and if you happen to be in melee, you still have Flyby), also you will get some extra spells from the Druid and having in mind that you concentrated more into WIS, your spells will have a good DC.

    Note: You can also use the Conjure Animals before transforming to have a flock of flying snakes (8 summons + you) -They do have a pretty decent damage for their CR, and you could combine it with Stunning Strike to make them do some serious damage.

    Note2: I have been playing this mainly as a themed character (Monk from the Monastery of the Golden Flying Snake -Based around Quetzalcoatl-
    Last edited by Maxilian; 2016-10-13 at 10:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Rules as written wearing metal armor does NOT strip away druid's abilities. The tendency to not use them is there only as a sort of reminder that most druids find it distasteful; It's just one type of ribbon features - it has no mechanical weight or value. None of the class features rules that wearing metal armor would suddenly make them non-functional. As such, Fighter/Druid combination isn't as bad as you might think.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Rules as written wearing metal armor does NOT strip away druid's abilities. The tendency to not use them is there only as a sort of reminder that most druids find it distasteful; It's just one type of ribbon features - it has no mechanical weight or value. None of the class features rules that wearing metal armor would suddenly make them non-functional. As such, Fighter/Druid combination isn't as bad as you might think.
    The rules text is in the Druid class armor proficiencies section:

    "(druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal)"

    So if that's not a rule, what is it? A naive prediction? :)

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    The rules text is in the Druid class armor proficiencies section:

    "(druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal)"

    So if that's not a rule, what is it? A naive prediction? :)
    This issue has been addressed in Sage Advice by Jeremy Crawford, 3/21/2016:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sage Advice
    "What happens if a druid wears metal armor? The druid explodes.

    Well, not actually. Druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and wielding a metal shield. The taboo has been part of the classís story since the class first appeared in Eldritch Wizardry (1976) and the original Playerís Handbook (1978). The idea is that druids prefer to be protected by animal skins, wood, and other natural materials that arenít the worked metal that is associated with civilization. Druids donít lack the ability to wear metal armor. They choose not to wear it. This choice is part of their identity as a mystical order. Think of it in these terms: a vegetarian can eat meat, but the vegetarian chooses not to.

    A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it. If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM. Each class has story elements mixed with its game features; the two types of design go hand-in-hand in D&D, and the story parts are stronger in some classes than in others. Druids and paladins have an especially strong dose of story in their design. If you want to depart from your classís story, your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class. As long as you abide by your characterís proficiencies, youíre not going to break anything in the game system, but you might undermine the story and the world being created in your campaign."
    While druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and shields, they don't break apart if they do. They know how to wear metal armor and shields. Whether they do is only a matter of choice.

    EDIT: PS. Druids who follow Mielikki in Forgotten Realms are allowed to wear metal armors according to Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:
    Quote Originally Posted by FRCS, page 23
    Mielikki, who is famous for the number of druid/rangers who worship her, has more lenient spiritual oaths than most deities that druids worship in the Realms. Druids of Mielikki can use any of the standard armor or weapons that rangers normally use (all simple and martial weapons, all light and medium armor, and all shields) without violating their spiritual oaths.
    Note that this is from 3.5, and thus this doesn't mean that worshiping Mielikki in 5e game would grant them more proficiencies (unless your DM said so). Note also, that deities are dependent of the campaign you play in. In a homebrew campaign there just might be someone similar to Mielikki. And even if your campaign didn't require a worship of a deity, there could be a similar philosophy that didn't see it as a problem.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-10-13 at 05:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    How much damage does Exploding do? Maybe my Druid can survive it, long rest in the armor, and go adventuring the next day in top shape...

    (joke)

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