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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    I just wanted to pop in and say that I really like and appreciate this guide, it has been very interesting and helpful to me

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by effenhoog View Post
    I just wanted to pop in and say that I really like and appreciate this guide, it has been very interesting and helpful to me
    Thanks, just 3 classes to go and I'll be finished with the updates...
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    First off, thank you so much for creating this. It has helped me so much.

    Secondly, I had a question about your Monk/Barb build as a Tortle. I was wondering if you would either post here or send me a direct message and go into what you enjoyed about it so much? I am going to be playing a Tortle in the next game I play in, and this seems like it would be exactly what I am wanting. So, I was hoping to get some more information.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    The guide is finally fully updated, as I've effectively run out of character space!

    Additions:
    -132 pictures to inspire the multiclasses! (All credit to original artist.)
    -132 potential names for what you might call every MC! Only some of them suck!
    -An example build for nearly every MC! Several of them suck!
    -RP multiclass justifications for several MC combinations!
    -Fully incorprated Xanathar's content!
    -Uncounted Typos!
    -Wolverine, Raphael, Ryze, and Sean Connery!


    I'll continue to update and adjust with any input from the community, but will have to adjust due to character space limits.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Pete,

    First off thanks a bunch for this thread. I've found it very interesting and helpful.

    I would just like to pose the possibility that a Kensei Monk + Ranger could be quite strong. You point out that getting Hunter's Mark can be really strong for a character who gets multiple attacks but I'm not sure you give it enough credit. For a class that attacks a minimum of three times per round that's at least a 3d6 damage increase. Plus it's way stronger to take the two - weapon fighting style as it allows you to add your dex modifier to all of your bonus action unarmed strikes (which you typically cannot do). After only two levels in the ranger class your monk gains 1-2 more dex modifier additions on their bonus action (depending on if you use Flurry or not) and you gain 3 or 4d6 extra damage from Hunter's Mark. Would you still consider this to not be worth the 2 monk level loss? Assuming ideal scenario with Hunter's Mark and Flurry of Blows and 2 handed longsword, a level 7 character that has 5 levels in Kensei Monk and 2 levels in Ranger would deal 2d10 + 6d6 + 4*(Dex Mod) damage. That's an average of 32 + 4*(Dex mod) damage in one turn! Please let me know your thoughts, am I missing anything?
    Last edited by Ace of Trades; 2017-12-30 at 12:32 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace of Trades View Post
    Pete,

    First off thanks a bunch for this thread. I've found it very interesting and helpful.

    I would just like to pose the possibility that a Kensei Monk + Ranger could be quite strong. You point out that getting Hunter's Mark can be really strong for a character who gets multiple attacks but I'm not sure you give it enough credit. For a class that attacks a minimum of three times per round that's at least a 3d6 damage increase. Plus it's way stronger to take the two - weapon fighting style as it allows you to add your dex modifier to all of your bonus action unarmed strikes (which you typically cannot do). After only two levels in the ranger class your monk gains 1-2 more dex modifier additions on their bonus action (depending on if you use Flurry or not) and you gain 3 or 4d6 extra damage from Hunter's Mark. Would you still consider this to not be worth the 2 monk level loss? Assuming ideal scenario with Hunter's Mark and Flurry of Blows and 2 handed longsword, a level 7 character that has 5 levels in Kensei Monk and 2 levels in Ranger would deal 2d10 + 6d6 + 4*(Dex Mod) damage. That's an average of 32 + 4*(Dex mod) damage in one turn! Please let me know your thoughts, am I missing anything?
    You are mistaken in thinking monks need TWF style to add their dex to unarmed strikes. Monks get that by default on all attacks, as it is not TWF.

    I rate the monk/ranger as sky blue, one below best, mostly for the other reasons you’ve mentioned.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Kind of surprised that dipping Moon Druid is rated so low. It may not actually up your combat or casting abilities (although, it may be better for melee than anything some other classes get, and it's at least full caster slot progression), but Wildshape gives you a huge grab-bag of abilities, even at a low level.

    Movement speed, yep. Unlimited spiderclimb, yep. Stealth (even for heavy armoured types if metal is allowed), yep. Super jumps, yep. Infiltration, yep. Vision types, yep. Trap removal (face smack HP damage traps, or boost a stat for saves), yep. Carrying capacity, yep. Escape tactics for more than one person (horse mode), yep. Even a burrow speed if you need it, yep.

    Oh, and you can just use it to damage sponge a bit too. And you get some spells as well. All the good parts of the dip (wildshape) are twice per short rest, and since you're not using it for combat (mostly), you can use it pretty indiscriminately for anything you want.

    Fighters want that sort of flexibility. So do Rogues. So do Rangers. It's a really front loaded class to dip into. If there was a spell that you could use multiple times a day as a lvl2 class ability that was called "Minor Polymorph" people would say it's broken. It'd be at least a lvl2 or lvl3 spell, but you get to cast it at least 4 times a day as a MC Druid if you want. And that's essentially all Wildshape is for other classes. A really flexible spell that can do stuff that they couldn't do before, which they can use a lot of times per day, but that comes with some other OK'ish spells too. A lvl2-3 spell, that you get free slots for. Which is really good, dip-wise.

    They might seem like "niche" abilities, but there's a LOT of them. Crag Cat spell turning/nondetection, Female Steeder spiderclimb, jumping and stealth, Giant Badger burrow speed. All available for a bonus action, in combat or out, all hard to replicate as easily or reliably in other ways. It does depend on "what you've seen", but it's pretty easy to backstory in even the above and common stuff, and you're set. You won't get all that from two levels of most other dips.

    So not exactly a red dip for most classes, even if it is a two level minimum, while some other classes are great as a one level dip. But getting all those gimmicks in two levels is great for many classes, especially ones that tend to MC around lvl7-12 anyway. And for casters, it's not exactly horrible anyway, considering 13Wis is all you'll ever need for your gained spells, you get a melee option that you didn't have before, it's still full caster progression, and you'll save yourself a few prepared spell slots because Wildshape is such a versatile "spell" to have anyway.
    Last edited by sambojin; 2017-12-30 at 07:19 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by sambojin View Post
    Kind of surprised that dipping Moon Druid is rated so low. It may not actually up your combat or casting abilities (although, it may be better for melee than anything some other classes get, and it's at least full caster slot progression), but Wildshape gives you a huge grab-bag of abilities, even at a low level.

    Movement speed, yep. Unlimited spiderclimb, yep. Stealth (even for heavy armoured types if metal is allowed), yep. Super jumps, yep. Infiltration, yep. Vision types, yep. Trap removal (face smack HP damage traps, or boost a stat for saves), yep. Carrying capacity, yep. Escape tactics for more than one person (horse mode), yep. Even a burrow speed if you need it, yep.

    Oh, and you can just use it to damage sponge a bit too. And you get some spells as well. All the good parts of the dip (wildshape) are twice per short rest, and since you're not using it for combat (mostly), you can use it pretty indiscriminately for anything you want.

    Fighters want that sort of flexibility. So do Rogues. So do Rangers. It's a really front loaded class to dip into. If there was a spell that you could use multiple times a day as a class ability that was called "Minor Polymorph" people would say it's broken. It'd be a lvl2 or lvl3 spell, and you get to cast it at least 4 times a day as a MC Druid if you want. And that's essentially all Wildshape is for other classes. A really flexible spell that can do stuff that they couldn't do before, which they can use a lot of times per day, but that comes with some other OK'ish spells too. A lvl2-3 spell, that you get free slots for. Which is really good, dip-wise.

    Not exactly a red dip for most classes, even if it is a two level minimum, while some other classes are great as a one level dip. But getting all those gimmicks in two levels is great for many classes, especially ones that tend to MC around lvl7-12 anyway. And for casters, it's not exactly horrible anyway, considering 13Wis is all you'll ever need for your gained spells, you get a melee option that you didn't have before, it's still full caster progression, and you'll save yourself a few prepared spell slots because Wildshape is such a versatile "spell" to have anyway.
    I only had it marked red for 1 class. That is fighter, and only under the assumption that said fighter is a str-fighter and metal armor would not be allowed. I don't value the moon druid dip too high, because I am also making the assumption that people follow the RAW disintegrate would kill a moon druid dipped PC at medium to high level. Some DMs might not use it, but its enough to scare an optimizer away, if it is used.

    It's not bad, and if done right can be just fine. It adds versatility, but not much to core strengths. In my experience, by the time any typical PC would want to dip into it, the full casters often have enough mobility usually to help the party get out of exploration encounters. I could reevaluate. Several of them could possibly be rated black.

    One of the players in my current party has a few levels in moon druid (mostly cleric). Every time he uses it in a fight, he just does so much less than if he'd stay in "dude" form. It's really an exploration perk only by tier 2.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Lately I've been recomending your guide a lot @PeteNutButter.
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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I don't wanna be that guy, but a lot of the class combinations listed are way off. Like *waay* off. Even still, the sheer scope of this guide means errors are bound to crop up. Honestly this is is ab insanely good guide even if a few errors show here and there. I'm going to list everything off that I can and try to help out.

    Monk Warlock despite being MAD as hell needs to be Sky Blue. The combination of Devil's Sight with a Shadow Monk is INSANE.

    Barbarian Bard(either order) also needs to be Sky Blue. It's the best grappler build in existence. No I'm not joking. Advantage on strength checks, expertise on athletics, and then Cutting Words so if they roll high you force them back down. This build treats even the largest enemies like a small child. Better still, with magical secrets you can get spells such as Enlarge or Earthbind or Fly to allow you to grapple huge creatures or to make flying creatures able to be grappled.

    Druid/Paladin needs to move up to Blue. You use any non-spell ability while wildshaped. This means if you go a bit deep with a 3 level dip you can Lay on Hands yourself in an emergency, and you can still Channel Divinity. It's generally best picked up later after you've peogressed more with Wild Shape, but it's good.

    Druid/Rogue makes for a really good grapple build. Like really good. When making skill checks while wild shaped, you use YOUR proficiency bonus but the ANIMAL'S stats. So a level 3 character can grappled at +8, and it only goes up from there. You can dump Strength and still be one of the best grapplers.

    Rogue/Barbarian is amazing with the Shield Master feat. Shove as a bonus action with Expertise and Advantage means sneak attacks on prone targets all day erry day. I refer to this as the "Freight Train" build.

    While Rogue and Paladin are pretty MAD, it's worth noting that Smite can be used AFTER it is determined if an attack is a hit. Which means it can be saved exclusively for critical hits. For a Shield Master rogue which gets advantage all the time this is really good. Also rogues like Charisma anyways. As MAD as this is, this can be strong.

    Sorc/Cleric should be sky blue just like wizard. Divine Souls who dip Cleric are the best buff characters in the game. Every round they're blessing or twinning greater invisibility. A single dip in Cleric makes a viable gish if you grab Warcaster. Just walk into melee, booming blade, then quicken Spirit Guardians. You need the armor proficiency to make this work sincr Divine Soul doesn't get armor or any AC bonuses. It doesn't even have to be a particular domain. Light domain means you get a bunch of warding flares. Oh and it counteracts the limited sorc spell selection but offloading all the low level cleric spells you want like Bless or Healing Word, so you have morr Sorc spell slots.

    Sorc/Rogue is a social God. Expertise in Deception and Persuasion + Subtle Spell means you can charm, use illusions, enchantments, and all manner of tricks under the sun to win at any social situation. It could just be as simple as dropping a Subtle Enhance Ability to give yourself advantage on your already amazing charisma checks. And even if you're not interested in that the armor proficiency is nice for sorcerers who aren't draconic. Saving even a single slot freeing up Mage Armor is worth it.

    Also, Druid Bard is better than you'd think. Moon Druids can somewhat dump physical stats to boost Charisma. And any non-spell features can be used in Wild Shape. So you can now use bardic inspiration by roaring.

    Druid Warlock is worth a small dip for Armor of Agathys, and possibly Mage Armor. These make Moon Druids a lot more durable and dangerous. GOO can communicate telepathically removing the the one downside of wild shape. I know you mentioned most of this already, but the MADness problem is not nearly as bad for a Moon Druid.

    Wizard/Warlock has insane Gish potential... sort of. See, Hexblade gives good armor proficiencies and weapon proficiency. Booming Blade can be used with Warcaster. Arcane Ward damage does NOT cause concentration checks to be required, because YOU aren't taking damage. The ward is. But you ARE being attacked, so it procs Armor of Agathys. So every time you cast Armor of Agathys you get your ward recharged by a decent amount as well. Between every fight you max out your ward using Armor of Shadows. So now you have this weird arcane caster with like 18 AC, who gets Booming Blade hits as opportunity attacks, but gets 2 extra HP bars. And whenever you attack him you take a bunch of retaliation damage via Aga. But also if you ignore him he's still the best controller class in the game. And if you try to attack him at range he just Shields it at 23 AC. Damned if you do damned if you don't. For comparison, a 7th level wizard/2nd level warlock will have an additional 20 hitpoints from Armor, on top of 19 hitpoints from Arcane Ward. Enemy has to do 39 damage before they even start to hit your real HP pool. And they're taking 20 backlash damage on every hit. The best part? You can pump Cha instead of Dex due to hexblade and still be decent in melee, while also potentially going deeper in warlock without MADness. A human variant who ends up 18 wiz/2 warlock can grab warcaster and resilient Con, and still end with 12 dex, 14 con, 20 int, and 18 cha. They can upcast Aga to like 5th level for 25 hp and an additional 41 hp. They can hellish rebuke ranged OR melee attacks so nobody wants to hit them. They're tankier than a barbarian. Their 41 hp ward recovers between fights. They have a bonus to counterspelling. And they're still an 18th level wizard with all the control that brings. And they have proficiency and advantage on concentration checks. Oh, and they can still grab Agonizing Blast so they get way better cantrip damage at the cost of -1 to their attack rolls. Did I mention you can Hellish Rebuke? 25+2d10 backlash damage on melee. Sorry for the rant. This is just an insanely good build nobody seems to know about.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    I don't wanna be that guy, but a lot of the class combinations listed are way off. Like *waay* off.
    "That's just like, your opinion, man." If you go over again what the color definitions are, I think my color choices might make a little more sense to you. A niche build does not alone justify making a class sky blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Monk Warlock despite being MAD as hell needs to be Sky Blue. The combination of Devil's Sight with a Shadow Monk is INSANE.
    I've had this discussion much earlier in the thread. Nothing makes it "INSANE." The reality is shadow monks are kind of weak without warlock, but devil's sight darkness on a warlock is just better than throwing monk levels on there. A full bladelock can do more DPR have streamlined progression and not be MAD. The monk warlock, is doing what a pure warlock can do, but is still not as good as the pure warlock. Despite all that you can't argue that it isn't a bit of a niche build (combining a specific subclass, with a specific stat array, with a specific invocation out of many options). That does not at all fall into the definition of Sky blue: "There are a lot of good class combinations here that can make for some solid builds." There is one niche build that can be decent, but has lots of flaws as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Barbarian Bard(either order) also needs to be Sky Blue. It's the best grappler build in existence. No I'm not joking. Advantage on strength checks, expertise on athletics, and then Cutting Words so if they roll high you force them back down. This build treats even the largest enemies like a small child. Better still, with magical secrets you can get spells such as Enlarge or Earthbind or Fly to allow you to grapple huge creatures or to make flying creatures able to be grappled.
    Niche build. Perfectly fits into the definition of Purple: "You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain." Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD. Doesn't really come online until you have extra attack and cutting words, but due to the MADness the uses of cutting words are extremely limited. Spells and rage don't mix. There is a lot of hurdles to overcome, making this a trap option for anyone who isn't already a good optimizer. The guide is intended to be useful for all levels of skill. Optimizers like you and myself, should recognize that Purple is not a death sentence, but a limitation to work around. I've made and played several Purple MC combinations to success, but an amateur combining those classes can disastrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Druid/Paladin needs to move up to Blue. You use any non-spell ability while wildshaped. This means if you go a bit deep with a 3 level dip you can Lay on Hands yourself in an emergency, and you can still Channel Divinity. It's generally best picked up later after you've progressed more with Wild Shape, but it's good.
    You point out the problems with it in your own statement. "Best taken later." Moon druids are an odd beast (pun intended) where your progression in forms is so strong and needed to keep up that until level 10 you probably don't want to MC more than 1 level. Paladin takes 2 levels to come online really with smites. The third level is probably not worth it. By the time you hit level 11, you are forgoing level 6 spells for a dead level, and then smites a level later. It's certainly got potential, but I'm afraid the MADness if you had to play from level 1 might be not even remotely worth it. I code this as black (read decent), but if I ever actually see it in play could be convinced to make it blue. This is on the list of character concepts I'd like to try at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Druid/Rogue makes for a really good grapple build. Like really good. When making skill checks while wild shaped, you use YOUR proficiency bonus but the ANIMAL'S stats. So a level 3 character can grappled at +8, and it only goes up from there. You can dump Strength and still be one of the best grapplers.
    Sadly subject to DM approval. Per grapple you need a free hand. I've seen 2 separate AL DMs say essentially, "Bears ain't gots no hands." RAW they make good sense, but RAI it should probably work... Regardless sky blue is lots of good combinations. This is one good one. I have it at blue for the potentials, but nothing really crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Rogue/Barbarian is amazing with the Shield Master feat. Shove as a bonus action with Expertise and Advantage means sneak attacks on prone targets all day erry day. I refer to this as the "Freight Train" build.
    I rated these blue and sky blue. I agree, very strong combination. A bit of optimization required, and a bit of a one-trick pony aspect keeps them from being gold. Remember gold is: "You really can't go wrong here. These two just compliment each other so well." You can go wrong, and very often people do, by making these builds dex instead of str builds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    While Rogue and Paladin are pretty MAD, it's worth noting that Smite can be used AFTER it is determined if an attack is a hit. Which means it can be saved exclusively for critical hits. For a Shield Master rogue which gets advantage all the time this is really good. Also rogues like Charisma anyways. As MAD as this is, this can be strong.
    I've seen this in play, Swashbuckler/paladin. Provided you have extra attack, the sneak attack can be a nice bonus for a rapier paladin. It's not bad. Solidly decent, per black ranking. It's lack of progression on slots, really hurts it in play. Smiting on crits never really works out in my experience. Even with advantage the crit smite only really helps if you manage to land it on a big foe that is still very high on hp. Wasted damage/overkill happens often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Sorc/Cleric should be sky blue just like wizard. Divine Souls who dip Cleric are the best buff characters in the game. Every round they're blessing or twinning greater invisibility. A single dip in Cleric makes a viable gish if you grab Warcaster. Just walk into melee, booming blade, then quicken Spirit Guardians. You need the armor proficiency to make this work sincr Divine Soul doesn't get armor or any AC bonuses. It doesn't even have to be a particular domain. Light domain means you get a bunch of warding flares. Oh and it counteracts the limited sorc spell selection but offloading all the low level cleric spells you want like Bless or Healing Word, so you have morr Sorc spell slots.
    There are too big draws to this, the spell list, and the armor. The armor is great on a sorcerer, but the spell list isn't as much help on a sorcerer, as they can just be a celestial if they want. The greater number of spells prepared/known is a bit more helpful on the sorcerer, but the wizard lacks access to the cleric spells entirely, making it a slightly higher value MC on the wizard. I had previously had this as sky blue, but downgraded it to blue with the release of the celestial sorcerer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Sorc/Rogue is a social God. Expertise in Deception and Persuasion + Subtle Spell means you can charm, use illusions, enchantments, and all manner of tricks under the sun to win at any social situation. It could just be as simple as dropping a Subtle Enhance Ability to give yourself advantage on your already amazing charisma checks. And even if you're not interested in that the armor proficiency is nice for sorcerers who aren't draconic. Saving even a single slot freeing up Mage Armor is worth it.
    Wouldn't a bard be better at that? High charisma already, full caster... A sorc/rogue doesn't get the same benefits of full casting progression the bard would give. In combat, the sneak attack dice would be likely wasted, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Also, Druid Bard is better than you'd think. Moon Druids can somewhat dump physical stats to boost Charisma. And any non-spell features can be used in Wild Shape. So you can now use bardic inspiration by roaring.
    Delaying moon druid forms for 1-2 inspirations a long rest seems like a trap option IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Druid Warlock is worth a small dip for Armor of Agathys, and possibly Mage Armor. These make Moon Druids a lot more durable and dangerous. GOO can communicate telepathically removing the the one downside of wild shape. I know you mentioned most of this already, but the MADness problem is not nearly as bad for a Moon Druid.
    Moon druids kind of just need to stay in moon druid. Their character will be much stronger at most levels if they do. Warlock doesn't add enough to your core strengths to make it worth while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Wizard/Warlock has insane Gish potential... sort of. See, Hexblade gives good armor proficiencies and weapon proficiency. Booming Blade can be used with Warcaster. Arcane Ward damage does NOT cause concentration checks to be required, because YOU aren't taking damage. The ward is. But you ARE being attacked, so it procs Armor of Agathys. So every time you cast Armor of Agathys you get your ward recharged by a decent amount as well. Between every fight you max out your ward using Armor of Shadows. So now you have this weird arcane caster with like 18 AC, who gets Booming Blade hits as opportunity attacks, but gets 2 extra HP bars. And whenever you attack him you take a bunch of retaliation damage via Aga. But also if you ignore him he's still the best controller class in the game. And if you try to attack him at range he just Shields it at 23 AC. Damned if you do damned if you don't. For comparison, a 7th level wizard/2nd level warlock will have an additional 20 hitpoints from Armor, on top of 19 hitpoints from Arcane Ward. Enemy has to do 39 damage before they even start to hit your real HP pool. And they're taking 20 backlash damage on every hit. The best part? You can pump Cha instead of Dex due to hexblade and still be decent in melee, while also potentially going deeper in warlock without MADness. A human variant who ends up 18 wiz/2 warlock can grab warcaster and resilient Con, and still end with 12 dex, 14 con, 20 int, and 18 cha. They can upcast Aga to like 5th level for 25 hp and an additional 41 hp. They can hellish rebuke ranged OR melee attacks so nobody wants to hit them. They're tankier than a barbarian. Their 41 hp ward recovers between fights. They have a bonus to counterspelling. And they're still an 18th level wizard with all the control that brings. And they have proficiency and advantage on concentration checks. Oh, and they can still grab Agonizing Blast so they get way better cantrip damage at the cost of -1 to their attack rolls. Did I mention you can Hellish Rebuke? 25+2d10 backlash damage on melee. Sorry for the rant. This is just an insanely good build nobody seems to know about.
    I'm fully aware of this build, but it doesn't really work that well in practice. You don't want to keep going in warlock, because then your slots and abjuration ward lag behind. It's MAD. Most foes will stop attacking you after one round (if they even attack your frosty looking self once), and just ignore you, leaving you as a bad wizard (read level 5 wizard that doesn't have fireball or fly or haste, etc.). I tried this build myself and was a bit disappointed with it. I was hoping it'd get better, but felt even more pointless by tier 2. Granted that was pre-hexblade, but still. YMMV, but regardless, it's definitely a VERY niche build, so it being Purple is well within the guidelines.

    I appreciate the input, but I think if you reread the color guide section you might understand the justifications for various colors a bit more. Purple is just for niche combinations, doesn't mean that it is bad.
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    Fair. In the context of your rating system most of my criticisms were ill-founded. However, can you edit the descriptions to mention some of these at least? Since this is a cursory overview of multiclassing you should at least have a sentence in the description saying "This can be good for X". It allows people who are reading to have a jumping-off point to look into niche builds while still having an accurate rating for the combination in general.

    However, there are a few points I would like to contest.

    I will say I disagree very strongly on is Sorc/Cleric. Divine soul makes a cleric dip *better*, not worse. Because the cleric spell list encourages gishing while Divine Souls LOSE AC over a draconic sorc. And the limited sorc spell selection means offloading spells has a strong synergistic benefit. Even freeing up Mage Armor means a spell slot saved. In short, there is no reason that Sorc/Cleric should be rated lower than Wiz/Cleric. They should be the same.

    Another is Sorc/Rogue. You're not going heavy in Rogue. Just one level for Expertise. A bard can do many things, but Subtle spell allows you to do things no other class can do. Given that it's only a 1 level dip, the sorcerer progression is very nearly identical to the bard. Additionally, the new rules for identifying spell casts in Xanathar's make it clear that any spell, even one as simple as Suggestion, is clearly visible to anyone who is watching the subject. No class has the ability to cast Suggestion without being noticed, except for the Sorcerer. All of the key social spells are on both the Bard and Sorcerer list, but every time a Bard casts a spell people know. A sorcerer can do so with impunity. Despite its reputation as the best party front man, Bard is completely outclassed by a Sorc/Rogue. While I agree it only applies to one particular role, the addition of light armor proficiency helps any non-draconic sorcerer nicely. A one level dip to become the absolute best in a given role is extremely valuable.

    On Wiz/Lock, I find that 2 levels is enough. The goal isn't necessarily to be the best tank ever. It's to put your enemies in a double bind. Consider, dipping Cleric is very highly rated. Why? because of armor proficiences, and a few decent 1st level spells. Dipping 2 levels, while more costly, guarantees that you are now the most durable character in the party, and nobody wants to attack you. Ever. You don't have to gish into melee. You can just put 18 levels into wizard. Being a God Wizard who effectively cannot be attacked is an insane power spike, even if it costs you a bit of casting. Likewise, the argument of MAD is fundamentally flawed. If you do not wish to pursue the gish route, you put 13 into cha. The same minimum requirement to multiclass cleric. If it wasn't for hexblade I would agree this is purple. But hexblade moves this solidly up to viable. I would say outside of this particular build it is NOT the same power as Cleric, but it is viable, and no longer a situational dip if you have interest in pursuing it. And even if it does put points into Cha over something else, typically your second stat as a wizard is Dex for AC. Medium Armor means you cap out at 2. The dip means you don't need to put points in Dex or Con, because your AC caps at 14 dex, and you no longer need Con since you have so much bonus HP. So uh...where else are you going to put those points?
    Last edited by Garresh; 2018-01-01 at 04:38 PM.

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    I guess you're right about a Moon Druid dip in the context of your rating system. Great guide by-the-way.

    Much depends on your adventure and your DM. If your encounters tend to start with "You are now in combat, roll for initiative", it's much weaker. If your combats often give you a round of "prep time", it's far stronger, depending on location.

    Using an action to WS into a female steeder, jumping onto a building roof, bonus action un-WSing, and saying "Hi! Drop your weapons! " as a BM shooter can be great as an encounter "setter-upper". You're now pretty safe against everything melee orientated without a fly/climb speed. And with your grab-bag of utilities, scouting isn't a huge problem to get that initial round. You could even Action Surge/BM dice out a round of attacks if you really wanted to (but it's better to do that next round).

    In a dungeon crawl, not so much. Though 120' darkvision still ain't bad.

    It gives a heap of versatility, and lets you "free tank" a fair few hits (saving some spell slots that would normally be needed to heal you), but I'll agree that it's mostly an out-of-combat thing. Depends on your campaign. If movement, "puzzles", scouting and abilities are more regular than just straight up close-ranged combat in your campaign, it goes up a notch for any class. Otherwise, as you said, it's often just an exploration ability with some side gimmicks. Not to say they're not useful, and they probably will save your party lots of problems, but not straight up powerful like some other dips. Rounds out some characters really well, but fairly campaign/DM dependant too.


    If it always ends in killing everything really fast, then being able to move quickly, stealthing a bit, vision types, and jumping/climbing probably isn't that good. It's still going to be useful several times a play-session, but so's just Hex'ing stuff (even out of combat for ability disadvantage, with no intention of ever chopping them up afterwards).



    I would wager that your cleric friend did the right thing though. If WS was what he did for an encounter or two a day (IE, not completely sucking at melee, but not being great at it, yet still being a free bag of HP), he freed up a tonne of spell slots for later encounters. Or for healing/flexibilty/exploration/utility. Saving even a few slots a day is one of the big plus points of the dip. It feels weak in that one encounter, but it made you better "overall". And your entire party, too.

    It's also a very useful "oh crap" button, which is why I probably think it's better than it is (+30-45'ish HP and good movement is a nice little "get out of death, free" card, even if you can only pop it out on your turn as a bonus or normal action. So not as good as a reaction button, but not bad. You can do it a lot too). Couple it with Absorb Elements off your actual druid spell list, and it gets pretty promising. Even at its most basic, you get two "oh crap!" buttons for the dip, three times each a day. Plus a fair bit of other stuff too.



    ((Just for funsies: Depending on your DM's reading of waiting through the initiative order as a conditional reaction, you might be able to HP soak some stuff on a "wait until they start to cast a spell and wildshape into something, rather unfairly, just for free HP. Otherwise, act normally, before they do anything else, immediately". There's lots in the dip :)
    Rocks from ceilings abound....
    ))

    ((The three Absorb Elements are probably still worth it for a STR Battlemaster each day for the dip, in combat, on top of all the other versatility the dip provides. It takes about a minute to get out of armour, so you can still wildshape, even RAW. Just carry and merge it. Turns it into a 1 minute + 1 bonus action "spell", but it's a very good spell to have that many times a day. It removes a combat button, but it still gives plenty of good stuff.))
    Last edited by sambojin; 2018-01-02 at 01:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sambojin View Post
    ...

    ((The three Absorb Elements are probably still worth it for a STR Battlemaster each day for the dip, in combat, on top of all the other versatility the dip provides. It takes about a minute to get out of armour, so you can still wildshape, even RAW. Just carry and merge it. Turns it into a 1 minute + 1 bonus action "spell", but it's a very good spell to have that many times a day. It removes a combat button, but it still gives plenty of good stuff.))
    The reason druid is a crap dip for str fighters is the armor restriction. The official sage advice compendium says druids don't wear metal armor. Unlike monks, no where does it specify what abilities do and do not shut off when the wrong things are put on. It's the kind of uncertainty that makes it bad to white room theorize around. If your particular DM says it's cool if you wear armor, then the dip is probably on equal footing with a cleric dip, potentially even a bit better.

    Personally, I always presume if a ruling is involved with my PC, then the DM will rule against me. It's a lot easier to theorycraft without unknowns. So I just write these things off.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    Druid/Rogue makes for a really good grapple build. Like really good...

    Rogue
    /Barbarian is amazing with the Shield Master feat...

    While Rogue and Paladin are pretty MAD, it's worth noting that Smite can be used AFTER it is determined if an attack is a hit. Which means it can be saved exclusively for critical hits. For a Shield Master rogue which gets advantage all the time this is really good. Also rogues like Charisma anyways. As MAD as this is, this can be strong....

    Sorc/Rogue is a social God....
    .


    I'm trying to discern a pattern to those build suggestions, but I just can't quite put my finger on it....


    Adding levels of Rogue = AWESOME!




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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    .


    I'm trying to discern a pattern to those build suggestions, but I just can't quite put my finger on it....


    Adding levels of Rogue = AWESOME!



    Hahaha If it were me, it'd probably be all Paladin MCs... Everyone has a favorite class.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Lately I've been recomending your guide a lot @PeteNutButter.
    Cheers!
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-01-04 at 01:38 AM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    .


    I'm trying to discern a pattern to those build suggestions, but I just can't quite put my finger on it....


    Adding levels of Rogue = AWESOME!



    I have a sneaking suspicion but it's hiding in plain sight.

    In all seriousness, I can't think of a single class or build that can't benefit from a 1 level rogue dip. Not one.
    Last edited by Garresh; 2018-01-04 at 02:19 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garresh View Post
    I have a sneaking suspicion but it's hiding in plain sight.

    In all seriousness, I can't think of a single class or build that can't benefit from a 1 level rogue dip. Not one.
    How about anyone with a dex of 12 or less?

    See that's the crux of MC optimization. Everyone could benefit from a dip in anything, but you have to take opportunity cost into the equation.

    Clearly a wizard 4/rogue 1 is better than a wizard 4, but is it better than a wizard 5? Certainly not.

    The question can't be, "Does this class help my build?" It has to be, "Does this class help my build more than other classes or staying in my single class?"

    This is why versatility enhancing options are rated relatively low in this guide, as they just don't help as much as things that make you better at what you are doing. Specialization is the name of the game for an optimized party.

    To put it in a common phrase, an optimized MC PC is greater than the sum of its parts. It's not, "Well I'm a level 2 wizard and druid but I'm also a ranger." It's "I can use my cha to attack from hexblade and since I'm a paladin 6+ I also add that to my saves, and I can smite on short rest...." or "I can use my warlock slots to give me sorcery points which I can the convert into more spell slots." Or "I get an extra attack on round one from Gloom Stalker, and Assassin gives me advantage if I go first further boosted by my wis bonus to initiative." You get the idea. Greater than the sum of its parts.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-01-04 at 12:25 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
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    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

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    Exactly as PeteNutButter said.

    Gold should be something absolutely awesome and sky blue something you choose to not take advantage of intentionally.
    Last edited by ZorroGames; 2018-01-04 at 01:04 PM.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

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    Hey ! Superb work brother, I must admit it was quite the read and I enjoyed it.

    I'm surprised by much of your conclusions, but I'm not against them at all.

    The paladin being so high was something I've never really felt, but it does speak when I gave it a second look. The paladin is always a bit upper then the power level of the average due to the strong nature of the sacred bond that ties him.

    I would advocate for a unseen one that is Cleric/Sorcerer (Divine Soul).

    ''If just looking for the spells, its probably better off being a Divine Soul, but even the Divine Soul can gain benefit from a one level dip in Life Cleric.''

    You were right. I theorycrafted a lot around the concept and the equation was simple. The first level of Life Cleric opens 5 spells in level 1... and you get enough spells to fullfill a nice role that is quite covering the debuff/heal part of the game.

    I'd like to thank you for the comment you made, I gave it a thorough look at it's powerful. You can bring back people from the grave, Animate Dead at level 3 (thanks Cleric), Twin Haste, Counterspell. There are powerful options from access to the cleric, and the pseudo-luck with the 2d4 makes it even better as a caster (saving throws matters). I'm not looking more then the level 6 to achieve Haste + Revivify and bring Counterspell at 7.

    Having access to Sanctuary to protect the concentration-buff while being tanky is actually efficient and far easy to enjoy.

    Guiding Bolt Twinned turns out to be quite damaging early on (2 x 4d6 potential is 4 odds of greatsword)

    The one level of cleric brings in (with 14 Wisdom) : Bless, Cure Wounds + Healing Word, Sanctuary, Comprehend Languages(or utility spell).

    You really want Sorcerer for powerful spells at level 3+, while the Cleric has the insane early game power that you can harness to make you a support/healer type character that eases game. You can even take Misty Step if you feel the need.

    Thanks for the whole read brother again, you delighted about 2 hours of my spare time. I'm amazed the theorycrafting possibility you opened to my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    Hey ! Superb work brother, I must admit it was quite the read and I enjoyed it.

    I'm surprised by much of your conclusions, but I'm not against them at all.

    The paladin being so high was something I've never really felt, but it does speak when I gave it a second look. The paladin is always a bit upper then the power level of the average due to the strong nature of the sacred bond that ties him.

    I would advocate for a unseen one that is Cleric/Sorcerer (Divine Soul).

    ''If just looking for the spells, its probably better off being a Divine Soul, but even the Divine Soul can gain benefit from a one level dip in Life Cleric.''

    You were right. I theorycrafted a lot around the concept and the equation was simple. The first level of Life Cleric opens 5 spells in level 1... and you get enough spells to fullfill a nice role that is quite covering the debuff/heal part of the game.

    I'd like to thank you for the comment you made, I gave it a thorough look at it's powerful. You can bring back people from the grave, Animate Dead at level 3 (thanks Cleric), Twin Haste, Counterspell. There are powerful options from access to the cleric, and the pseudo-luck with the 2d4 makes it even better as a caster (saving throws matters). I'm not looking more then the level 6 to achieve Haste + Revivify and bring Counterspell at 7.

    Having access to Sanctuary to protect the concentration-buff while being tanky is actually efficient and far easy to enjoy.

    Guiding Bolt Twinned turns out to be quite damaging early on (2 x 4d6 potential is 4 odds of greatsword)

    The one level of cleric brings in (with 14 Wisdom) : Bless, Cure Wounds + Healing Word, Sanctuary, Comprehend Languages(or utility spell).

    You really want Sorcerer for powerful spells at level 3+, while the Cleric has the insane early game power that you can harness to make you a support/healer type character that eases game. You can even take Misty Step if you feel the need.

    Thanks for the whole read brother again, you delighted about 2 hours of my spare time. I'm amazed the theorycrafting possibility you opened to my mind.
    I'm glad I could help. I'll continue to make minor updates, editing out things so I can make more room for more important ones. I never thought going into this that I'd need more than 200,000 characters, yet alas I do.

    Once I decided to include example builds, I quickly realized space was becoming an issue. I also realized the better combinations were so easy to come up with good builds that it was clear they deserved their better ratings, while the weak combinations had struggles to justify their existence. The whole exercise became a bit of an incidental verification of my rating system. I changed a few of them, as I tried to theorycraft every combination. It was a lot of fun, and I've stepped away from it with probably a dozen more character ideas that I want to play now...
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

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    Since I am still trying to learn the classes/races (Mountain Dwarf!) I most often want to play - Fighter, Cleric, Ranger, Wizard - I have just begun to consider the MC opportunities.

    When I do I will use this guide as a... well, guide... for my MC characters.

    Thank you for all your work and education for me.
    Last edited by ZorroGames; 2018-01-04 at 03:38 PM.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

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    Overall this is an excellent multiclassing guide, there's just one piece of Xanathar's content I wanted to mention that is worth considering, beyond the new subclasses themselves. There's a new spell called Shadow Blade, 2nd level Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard spell that creates a melee weapon (2d8 blade) with finesse that you are automatically proficient in for a minute. Perhaps at higher levels it's less useful, but at lower levels it gives a significant damage increase to combination any melee/caster combo, especially ones with extra attack, and can use it as the weapon for SCAG cantrips.
    This is all to say, do you think that it makes taking a few levels in Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard better for the Ranger, or is this an example of a niche build?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarohk View Post
    Overall this is an excellent multiclassing guide, there's just one piece of Xanathar's content I wanted to mention that is worth considering, beyond the new subclasses themselves. There's a new spell called Shadow Blade, 2nd level Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard spell that creates a melee weapon (2d8 blade) with finesse that you are automatically proficient in for a minute. Perhaps at higher levels it's less useful, but at lower levels it gives a significant damage increase to combination any melee/caster combo, especially ones with extra attack, and can use it as the weapon for SCAG cantrips.
    This is all to say, do you think that it makes taking a few levels in Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard better for the Ranger, or is this an example of a niche build?
    I think it should be noted, that anyone can have only up to 3 x 2nd-level spell slots (barring class features re-/generating slots).

    It has a rather big opportunity cost, and I'd lean towards calling it a niche build if focused on (a sorcerer could pull this build off with relative ease if it was their gimmick to burn higher level slots to be able to cast this spell more often, but that only makes it more niche)
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2018-01-09 at 03:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I'm glad I could help. I'll continue to make minor updates, editing out things so I can make more room for more important ones. I never thought going into this that I'd need more than 200,000 characters, yet alas I do.

    Once I decided to include example builds, I quickly realized space was becoming an issue. I also realized the better combinations were so easy to come up with good builds that it was clear they deserved their better ratings, while the weak combinations had struggles to justify their existence. The whole exercise became a bit of an incidental verification of my rating system. I changed a few of them, as I tried to theorycraft every combination. It was a lot of fun, and I've stepped away from it with probably a dozen more character ideas that I want to play now...
    You did an insane job. Props to you. This guide is quite good and some of the players I've introduced to a new campaign are using it thoroughly to plan their characters progression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarohk View Post
    Overall this is an excellent multiclassing guide, there's just one piece of Xanathar's content I wanted to mention that is worth considering, beyond the new subclasses themselves. There's a new spell called Shadow Blade, 2nd level Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard spell that creates a melee weapon (2d8 blade) with finesse that you are automatically proficient in for a minute. Perhaps at higher levels it's less useful, but at lower levels it gives a significant damage increase to combination any melee/caster combo, especially ones with extra attack, and can use it as the weapon for SCAG cantrips.
    This is all to say, do you think that it makes taking a few levels in Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard better for the Ranger, or is this an example of a niche build?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    I think it should be noted, that anyone can have only up to 3 x 2nd-level spell slots (barring class features re-/generating slots).

    It has a rather big opportunity cost, and I'd lean towards calling it a niche build if focused on (a sorcerer could pull this build off with relative ease if it was their gimmick to burn higher level slots to be able to cast this spell more often, but that only makes it more niche)
    Arkhios (Incidentally, how the hell do you pronounce that?) makes good points. The MADness prevents me from considering arcane casters a really good dip for rangers. If it were a cleric or druid spell then you'd be in business. As for rogues and fighters, dipping arcane casters is already viable, so this just becomes candy a few times a day. Guess what martial class is a half caster and shares a core stat with 2 out of 3 of the classes that get shadow blade... f*cking paladins. Part of me really wishes they'd give wisdom gishes more love, but at least Xanathar is a step in the right direction for rangers. Although, I'd still probably never take level 6 in ranger. It might as well just say, "gain 8 hp, and don't open this book again until you hit level 7." If I could take one feature from the revised ranger and make it core it'd be that favored enemy actually does something. It's such a wasted feature that can be so cool and rewarding to the player when it comes up, but basically does nothing as is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardakan View Post
    You did an insane job. Props to you. This guide is quite good and some of the players I've introduced to a new campaign are using it thoroughly to plan their characters progression.
    Thanks. I'm always happy to help.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-01-09 at 11:12 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  27. - Top - End - #147
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I'm considering a Cleric dip for my current Land Druid.

    What I'm realizing about Land Druid X / Cleric is that you get a LOT out of a single level dip.

    • You are much more effective against Undead in the mid levels. Channel Divinity, Guiding Bolt, Protection from Evil, even Sacred Flame.
    • You have access to much more personal defense. Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary. And, those scale well to high levels.
    • You finally have enough spells to keep utilitarian Ritual spells memorized - like Detect Magic, Speak With Animals, or (who needs Medicine skill now) Detect Poison & Disease.
    • With your two extra Cleric Domain spells, and your 'dip' level doubling the effect of your Wisdom bonus on spells memorized, you get a heck of a lot more spells known. And each Wisdom increase is even more worthwhile.
    • You can use the single Cleric level for bread-and-butter first-level spells like Healing Word, Detect Magic or Detect Poison and Disease, freeing up Druid spells memorized for higher levels. You can actually justify keeping some utility ritual spells all the time!


    In fact, the spells known is significant. Just playing with it for my character now:

    Land Druid 6 with a 16 Wisdom
    (6 from Level, 4 from Domain, 3 from Wisdom) = 13 spells known

    Land Druid 5 / Cleric 1 with a 16 Wisdom
    (6 from Level, 4 from Druid Domain, 2 from Cleric Domain, 6 from Wisdom) = 18 spells known

    Is it worth losing Archdruid for this? It's tempting.
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain. - Rainbownaga
    The Warlock is Faust: the Musical: The Class. - toapat

  28. - Top - End - #148
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebubba View Post
    I'm considering a Cleric dip for my current Land Druid.

    What I'm realizing about Land Druid X / Cleric is that you get a LOT out of a single level dip.

    • You are much more effective against Undead in the mid levels. Channel Divinity, Guiding Bolt, Protection from Evil, even Sacred Flame.
    • You have access to much more personal defense. Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary. And, those scale well to high levels.
    • You finally have enough spells to keep utilitarian Ritual spells memorized - like Detect Magic, Speak With Animals, or (who needs Medicine skill now) Detect Poison & Disease.
    • With your two extra Cleric Domain spells, and your 'dip' level doubling the effect of your Wisdom bonus on spells memorized, you get a heck of a lot more spells known. And each Wisdom increase is even more worthwhile.
    • You can use the single Cleric level for bread-and-butter first-level spells like Healing Word, Detect Magic or Detect Poison and Disease, freeing up Druid spells memorized for higher levels. You can actually justify keeping some utility ritual spells all the time!


    In fact, the spells known is significant. Just playing with it for my character now:

    Land Druid 6 with a 16 Wisdom
    (6 from Level, 4 from Domain, 3 from Wisdom) = 13 spells known

    Land Druid 5 / Cleric 1 with a 16 Wisdom
    (6 from Level, 4 from Druid Domain, 2 from Cleric Domain, 6 from Wisdom) = 18 spells known

    Is it worth losing Archdruid for this? It's tempting.
    *I think you mean spells prepared.*

    Yeah, it's good. There is a reason it's sky blue. It's an obvious upgrade at level 6, but at level 7 the pure druid has things like Polymorph and Conjure Woodland Gamebreakers [or whatever the DM wants]. High level druid spells are quite potent, and may not always be worth delaying.

    Personally, I'm a fan of the life cleric dip. In conjunction with goodberry and now healing spirit... it's pretty insane healing.

    Being behind one level on spells known is probably worth it at least on caster druids. Don't worry about level 20 abilities, they'll probably never show up. Even if they do, they don't help your character nearly as much for nearly as long.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-01-13 at 01:07 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    *I think you mean spells prepared.*
    Was that my AD&D showing again?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    It's an obvious upgrade at level 6, but at level 7 the pure druid has things like Polymorph and Conjure Woodland Gamebreakers [or whatever the DM wants]. High level druid spells are quite potent, and may not always be worth delaying.
    Yeah, you can say that at every level until you get 9th level spells, though. But you are trading it away for mid-level breadth. To me, picking up a bunch of rituals and cantrips is part of the appeal - you get Wizard-like utility, which is useful for some party compositions.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Personally, I'm a fan of the life cleric dip. In conjunction with goodberry and now healing spirit... it's pretty insane healing.
    It's sweet, for sure - but another good one is Mountain Druid / Tempest Cleric. The domain abilities and spells mesh perfectly. Lightning Bolt will come into it's own once that 2nd level of Tempest Cleric kicks in; that one is probably worth putting of for a while, being 2 levels behind on those higher level spells is tough.
    Last edited by Beelzebubba; 2018-01-14 at 04:51 AM.
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain. - Rainbownaga
    The Warlock is Faust: the Musical: The Class. - toapat

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    South Oregon
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    How effective would a fighter/warlock(HexBlade)/sorcerer build be? I currently have a lvl 3 HexBlade and planned to dip into sorcerer, but also thought about adding one lvl of fighter.
    Last edited by Jrpergande78; 2018-01-19 at 01:03 PM.

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