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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ciarannihill View Post
    Curious is there are any plans to expand this guide into multiclass options with more than 2 classes -- Things like Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer, etc. (Mostly the Charisma classes, if I'm honest -- They really tend to work together obnoxiously well regardless of how you combine them thanks to how SAD they are. Might be the biggest power balance oversight in 5E)

    I certainly know that almost every Paladin build I make involves dipping at least 1 level into Hexblade for Hex Warrior, but I might dip only that one level and do a sword and board Paladin/Fighter for the most part.
    That'd be literally 10 times as many entries for what amounts to a lot of repeating. The guide is already literally longer than a novel clocking in at what I'd estimate over 200,000 words. There is such a thing as too much information, especially since the 3 class combos that are really worth mentioning are either just "insert cha class". The other guideline is that any class with extra attack can freely grab up 3-4 levels of basically anything that isn't super MAD.

    I believe I mention that if you are curious about a triple class combo, just compare the two options. So for your example you might want to be a paladin/sorcerer/warlock. Check the Paladin/Sorcerer and the Paladin/Warlock entries and you'll get an idea of how it works out. Naturally those are both gold so you can tell you're in good shape.

    As for looking at dips, I mention breakpoints in each class section so you can get an idea of what might be good. Beyond that the 3 class combinations are so varied that it starts to be beyond the scope of what a guide can do. You are best asking for specific advice on a specific build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helliquin View Post
    I'd like to know how to best optimize:
    Ranger - Gloom stalker (maybe 3 or 4 levels for ASI)
    Monk - Drunken Master (at least 5 levels)
    Rogue - Assassin (at least 3 levels)
    ...like this specific build in question.

    Gloomstalker and assassin have obvious synergy and make good sense. Picking Monk instead of ranger as your class for extra attack adds some complexity to the build and means it won't have it's core cool functions online until level 11 at the earliest. Monks as the most stat dependent class suffer heavily from those delayed ASIs. Going that route your AC without magic items is sitting at 17 until level 20. That is dangerously low for a front-liner, especially at that level. You could get some ridiculous movement going though.

    I'd suggest going Monk 5 into gloomstalker 4 (don't delay ASIs any more than you have to) into assassin 5, and then more monk or rogue as needed. Rogue is more damage, but monk is more ki.

    As an added note, I'm not sure Drunken Master is really worth it at only 5 levels. It's level 3 feature is almost completely replicated by the mobile feat. I mean it's nice to not have to take the feat. Could be a great choice if you want to go wood elf and take elven accuracy.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-06-27 at 02:59 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    what about a rogue/ranger/fighter? how would you guys optimize that if you got feats on character level and not class level.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Phazed View Post
    what about a rogue/ranger/fighter? how would you guys optimize that if you got feats on character level and not class level.
    If you get your ASIs/feats on character level instead of class level, level 4 in almost every class is completely dead. I'd probably leave every class at level 3. Except ranger I guess for extra attack since it also nets you second level spells. Ranger 5/Rogue 3/Fighter 3/Monk 3/Barb 3/Cleric 3... lol Maybe that's a bit extreme but it could be fun. You could go with the Gloomstalker/Assassin/Champion + Elven accuracy for fun crit farming.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I am not sure why, but I calculated a "Dip Score" and a "Base Score" from your color coded MC Table. Then I sorted by said scores.

    Gold = 5
    Sky = 4
    Blue = 3
    Black = 2
    Purple = 1
    Red = 0


    Fighter Cleric Rogue Sorcerer Warlock Paladin Ranger Barbarian Bard Druid Wizard Monk Base Score
    Rogue 4 3 x 3 3 1 4 3 3 3 3 3 33
    Cleric 3 x 3 3 2 3 4 1 3 3 3 3 31
    Bard 4 4 3 4 5 5 1 2 x 1 1 0 30
    Fighter x 3 4 3 3 2 3 4 3 0 3 1 29
    Warlock 5 2 2 5 x 5 1 3 3 1 1 0 28
    Druid 3 4 2 2 1 2 3 3 1 x 2 3 26
    Paladin 3 2 2 5 5 x 1 2 4 1 1 0 26
    Ranger 4 4 4 1 1 1 x 3 1 3 1 3 26
    Monk 4 4 4 1 1 1 4 2 0 3 0 x 24
    Sorcerer 3 3 2 x 5 5 1 0 2 2 1 0 24
    Barbarian 4 2 4 0 2 2 3 x 1 1 0 1 20
    Wizard 4 4 2 3 1 1 1 0 1 2 x 0 19
    Dip Score 41 35 32 30 29 28 26 23 22 20 16 14

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyK View Post
    I am not sure why, but I calculated a "Dip Score" and a "Base Score" from your color coded MC Table. Then I sorted by said scores.

    Gold = 5
    Sky = 4
    Blue = 3
    Black = 2
    Purple = 1
    Red = 0


    Fighter Cleric Rogue Sorcerer Warlock Paladin Ranger Barbarian Bard Druid Wizard Monk Base Score
    Rogue 4 3 x 3 3 1 4 3 3 3 3 3 33
    Cleric 3 x 3 3 2 3 4 1 3 3 3 3 31
    Bard 4 4 3 4 5 5 1 2 x 1 1 0 30
    Fighter x 3 4 3 3 2 3 4 3 0 3 1 29
    Warlock 5 2 2 5 x 5 1 3 3 1 1 0 28
    Druid 3 4 2 2 1 2 3 3 1 x 2 3 26
    Paladin 3 2 2 5 5 x 1 2 4 1 1 0 26
    Ranger 4 4 4 1 1 1 x 3 1 3 1 3 26
    Monk 4 4 4 1 1 1 4 2 0 3 0 x 24
    Sorcerer 3 3 2 x 5 5 1 0 2 2 1 0 24
    Barbarian 4 2 4 0 2 2 3 x 1 1 0 1 20
    Wizard 4 4 2 3 1 1 1 0 1 2 x 0 19
    Dip Score 41 35 32 30 29 28 26 23 22 20 16 14
    This is interesting... I'm glad to see that it more or less lines up to my expectations. Fighter is the easiest class to dip into both because it's optional requirement of str/dex and it's amazing level 1. I'm a little surprised by the rogue topping the right side, but it makes a fair amount of sense. It just doesn't have many bad options, due to it's SADness and linear scaling that can really use extra attack.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    What multiclass options are best for the blood hunter class?
    Will you add this class to the list later?

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by moskus4 View Post
    What multiclass options are best for the blood hunter class?
    Will you add this class to the list later?
    Whoa, has it become official?

    The old version is way OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Whoa, has it become official?
    It's not official yet, but it's available at D&D beyond.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by moskus4 View Post
    What multiclass options are best for the blood hunter class?
    Will you add this class to the list later?
    Since this guide is mostly oriented to AL, PNB is unlikely to add any homebrews to the list in his guide. Iirc, there is a guide to blood hunter somewhere on this forum, but it probably doesn't account for Mercer's various revisions to the class. I mean, if given the option, who wouldn't take 1.2 or 1.3 over 2.x?

    As of 2.1, you generally don't want to MC with blood hunter. The character level hp hit from your rites discourages MCing more than any of the formal classes. Until Mercer addresses this problem by changing the rite hp hit to class level or making the damage dependent on character level (e.g. cantrips), it's generally not a good idea to MC with blood hunter. You could probably come up with a fine-tuned build to make up for the rite self-harm, but it's not going to be simple. Since
    Spoiler: Critical Role spoiler
    Show
    Molly is dead,
    further revisions to blood hunter will likely come at a slower pace. That is, the above problem is unlikely to be addressed in the near future. You could talk to your DM about further homebrewing a homebrew, but I imagine many wouldn't want the additional headache.

    That being said, the best options are probably barbarian, monk, ranger, and fighter. Most monks I've played with complain about damage output, so the rite boost on a monk weapon or fists (lycan) would help tremendously, especially if your DM allows you to stack predatory strikes and martial arts. Fighter and barb help you mitigate the self-harm of your rites. Ranger is great if you're planning to rite a bow or xbow and for flavor synergy. If you're not planning to dip blood hunter, 11/12 is probably the maximum you would want to reach with an MC build.
    Last edited by Kaliayev; 2018-08-05 at 06:09 AM. Reason: typos

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I was reading through these, and I was intrigued by your Fighter/Monk, what about these builds?


    Defensive build
    Eldritch Knight 5+ / Kensei 4
    Variant Human (Tavern Brawler) 16, 13, 16, 8, 13, 8
    Use heavy armour & shield with defensive fighting style. With attack action, replace one attack with 1d4 unarmed strike, Kensei's Agile Parry stacks with shield. With full plate, that's a consistent 23 AC every round you attack, and that's with basic non-magical gear. You've got defensive spells to cast to augument that, and Patient Defense & Step of the Wind.

    Also, you can attack with your Kensei melee weapon, then unarmed strike, drop your weapon, then use Tavern Brawler's free bonus action grab. When you're finished with grappling, resummon it to you with a bonus action (the Weapon Bond feature means you'll never be without your kensei weapon). Consider taking Prodigy feat for expertise in Atheletics, and Enlarge/Reduce as a spell at Fighter 8 (total level 12) for better grappling.

    For a slightly more aggressive version, forgo the shield entirely, take Dueling fighting style instead. You can now hit with longsword (+2 damage from style), hit with unarmed strike, bonus action grapple, and then continue to stab & punch on future rounds, always getting +2 Agile Parry to AC.

    This combo technically comes online at level 4 (Fighter 1/Monk 3), but I wouldn't delay extra attack, you may not be able to afford full plate early anyways.



    Aggressive build
    Battlemaster 5+ / Drunken Master 4
    Lizardfolk 15, 13, 17, 8, 13, 8

    Again, use heavy armour, your choice of sword & board or heavy weapons, typical strength-based fighter really. You end up delaying your Fighter features by four levels to get 4 Ki (which recharge on a short rest, matches well with Battlemaster maneuvers & Hungry Jaws). They will mostly be used for Flurry of Blows: bonus action for two 1d6+Str attacks & free disengage & +10 move speed. And each of those extra bite attacks can also have maneuver riders attached.

    Combined with Action Surge, that's potentially 6 attacks (& all your supriority dice) in one round, make that 8 attacks at total level 15. Between Second Wind, Hungry Jaws (remember this only gets expended on a successful hit), and your 4 Ki points, you'll often have something to do with your bonus action. Best to choose maneuvers that don't use bonus actions. Your ability to easily move where you want to be means Disarming Attack & Pushing Attack could be easier to take advantage of; Maneuvering Attack helps other party members move about without provoking just like you.

    Second & Third ASIs at levels 9 & 10, probably use one of them on Resilient (Wisdom) or +1 Dex/+1 Wis.



    Unarmoured build
    Battlemaster 5+ / Kensei 4
    Lizardfolk 13, 15, 17, 8, 13, 8

    Not essential to invest in Wisdom when you need at least 18 to be better than racial AC, so invest in Strength to help with carrying capacity & athletics checks. Or avoid dumping mental scores.

    Focus on archery with Longbow, with its fighting style. Kensei's Shot is a bit underwhelming with pure Monk, but Fighter makes it a bit better with higher accuracy, and Action Surge meaning you've got more attacks to add 1d4 damage to. Again, stick to maneuvers that don't use bonus actions. Riposte seems good, as compared to other archers you have a decent melee attack always at the ready.

    If you get stuck in melee, you can use Step of the Wind to move away, or just start biting them & resume shooting if they drop, or even use the Pushing Maneuver with Hungry Jaws. You can draw your melee kensei weapon before biting for the +2 AC from Agile Parry, and sheathe it before using your bow again on a future turn (or drop it on the same turn).

    Thinking about it a bit more, a Hunter Ranger 5+ / Kensei 4 may work out better for combining Kensei's Shot with extra arrow attacks. Or even Hunter Ranger 5+ / Fighter 2 / Kensei 4.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Floogal View Post
    I was reading through these, and I was intrigued by your Fighter/Monk, what about these builds?


    Defensive build
    Eldritch Knight 5+ / Kensei 4
    Variant Human (Tavern Brawler) 16, 13, 16, 8, 13, 8
    Use heavy armour & shield with defensive fighting style. With attack action, replace one attack with 1d4 unarmed strike, Kensei's Agile Parry stacks with shield. With full plate, that's a consistent 23 AC every round you attack, and that's with basic non-magical gear. You've got defensive spells to cast to augument that, and Patient Defense & Step of the Wind.

    Also, you can attack with your Kensei melee weapon, then unarmed strike, drop your weapon, then use Tavern Brawler's free bonus action grab. When you're finished with grappling, resummon it to you with a bonus action (the Weapon Bond feature means you'll never be without your kensei weapon). Consider taking Prodigy feat for expertise in Atheletics, and Enlarge/Reduce as a spell at Fighter 8 (total level 12) for better grappling.

    For a slightly more aggressive version, forgo the shield entirely, take Dueling fighting style instead. You can now hit with longsword (+2 damage from style), hit with unarmed strike, bonus action grapple, and then continue to stab & punch on future rounds, always getting +2 Agile Parry to AC.

    This combo technically comes online at level 4 (Fighter 1/Monk 3), but I wouldn't delay extra attack, you may not be able to afford full plate early anyways.



    Aggressive build
    Battlemaster 5+ / Drunken Master 4
    Lizardfolk 15, 13, 17, 8, 13, 8

    Again, use heavy armour, your choice of sword & board or heavy weapons, typical strength-based fighter really. You end up delaying your Fighter features by four levels to get 4 Ki (which recharge on a short rest, matches well with Battlemaster maneuvers & Hungry Jaws). They will mostly be used for Flurry of Blows: bonus action for two 1d6+Str attacks & free disengage & +10 move speed. And each of those extra bite attacks can also have maneuver riders attached.

    Combined with Action Surge, that's potentially 6 attacks (& all your supriority dice) in one round, make that 8 attacks at total level 15. Between Second Wind, Hungry Jaws (remember this only gets expended on a successful hit), and your 4 Ki points, you'll often have something to do with your bonus action. Best to choose maneuvers that don't use bonus actions. Your ability to easily move where you want to be means Disarming Attack & Pushing Attack could be easier to take advantage of; Maneuvering Attack helps other party members move about without provoking just like you.

    Second & Third ASIs at levels 9 & 10, probably use one of them on Resilient (Wisdom) or +1 Dex/+1 Wis.



    Unarmoured build
    Battlemaster 5+ / Kensei 4
    Lizardfolk 13, 15, 17, 8, 13, 8

    Not essential to invest in Wisdom when you need at least 18 to be better than racial AC, so invest in Strength to help with carrying capacity & athletics checks. Or avoid dumping mental scores.

    Focus on archery with Longbow, with its fighting style. Kensei's Shot is a bit underwhelming with pure Monk, but Fighter makes it a bit better with higher accuracy, and Action Surge meaning you've got more attacks to add 1d4 damage to. Again, stick to maneuvers that don't use bonus actions. Riposte seems good, as compared to other archers you have a decent melee attack always at the ready.

    If you get stuck in melee, you can use Step of the Wind to move away, or just start biting them & resume shooting if they drop, or even use the Pushing Maneuver with Hungry Jaws. You can draw your melee kensei weapon before biting for the +2 AC from Agile Parry, and sheathe it before using your bow again on a future turn (or drop it on the same turn).

    Thinking about it a bit more, a Hunter Ranger 5+ / Kensei 4 may work out better for combining Kensei's Shot with extra arrow attacks. Or even Hunter Ranger 5+ / Fighter 2 / Kensei 4.
    These are all solid and fun. Monk is one of those few classes that might actually be worth doubling up on extra attack though. Stunning strike is awesome and totally works on all melee weapon attacks. Just to keep ki going, I might favor a Monk 5+/Fighter 4. I have a Tortle Barbarian 2/Monk 7 who is a blast to play. I played a lizardfolk War Cleric 1/Monk 3 and used flurry with Divine Favor up in heavy armor.

    My only complaint about the lizardfolk is they start without a dex or str bonus putting them behind for a good portion of play. Still there is a lot of out-of-box cool characters you can make with them.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  12. - Top - End - #282
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    The while reason to not go past Monk 4 is that you can avoid investing in wisdom (besides the 13 needed to multiclass), provided you choose the right monastic tradition and get a decent AC somehow. Once you get Stunning Strike, it feels a waste to not get a decent save DC for it.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Floogal View Post
    The while reason to not go past Monk 4 is that you can avoid investing in wisdom (besides the 13 needed to multiclass), provided you choose the right monastic tradition and get a decent AC somehow. Once you get Stunning Strike, it feels a waste to not get a decent save DC for it.
    Ah good point. Two out of the three builds proscribed have 4 odd stats. It hurts me just to look at it, but its what we get when you combine odd racial boosts with a MAD MC. Maybe stats like 15, 13, 16, 9, 14, 8. It's pretty easy to get a 14 wisdom since the racial boosts that last point. As an AC whore myself I salivate at the AC 23 you have as a baseline with the Kensei bite, full plate, shield and defense FS.

    Maybe this would be a good candidate for a character that uses a stat boosting item. I have a belt of hill giant strength in AL that I've been meaning to build a character around...
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I'm currently a Warlock 4 (GOOlock, pact of chain familiar, DM let me use a Gazer as my familiar). After 5th level, I'm considering multiclassing into Bard for 3 levels, choosing Lore when I get there. I might grab Bard 4 for the ASI, bringing me to 20 CHA, which is really good.
    Now, the only thing is, I'm missing out on my 9th level spells for Warlock. I know that most people will say that I'll never get there, but I know my DM, and there is a very good possibility that we might. So, my question is: is this worth it?
    ((And I'm not building a Sorlock, cause I dont want to just cheese out everyone. If I multiclass, I'm going with Bard))

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by RoseTheLesbian View Post
    I'm currently a Warlock 4 (GOOlock, pact of chain familiar, DM let me use a Gazer as my familiar). After 5th level, I'm considering multiclassing into Bard for 3 levels, choosing Lore when I get there. I might grab Bard 4 for the ASI, bringing me to 20 CHA, which is really good.
    Now, the only thing is, I'm missing out on my 9th level spells for Warlock. I know that most people will say that I'll never get there, but I know my DM, and there is a very good possibility that we might. So, my question is: is this worth it?
    ((And I'm not building a Sorlock, cause I dont want to just cheese out everyone. If I multiclass, I'm going with Bard))
    If you go to 4, you may as well go to 5 for Cutting Words as a Short Rest recharge and 3rd level Bard spells.

    If you really want 9th Level spells, then stopping at 3 and waiting a few levels for your 20 Cha would be worth it.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by RoseTheLesbian View Post
    I'm currently a Warlock 4 (GOOlock, pact of chain familiar, DM let me use a Gazer as my familiar). After 5th level, I'm considering multiclassing into Bard for 3 levels, choosing Lore when I get there. I might grab Bard 4 for the ASI, bringing me to 20 CHA, which is really good.
    Now, the only thing is, I'm missing out on my 9th level spells for Warlock. I know that most people will say that I'll never get there, but I know my DM, and there is a very good possibility that we might. So, my question is: is this worth it?
    ((And I'm not building a Sorlock, cause I dont want to just cheese out everyone. If I multiclass, I'm going with Bard))
    Bard isn't a huge value dip. It's great for more skills and the jack of all trades, but it won't add a whole lot to the build (in combat). Bard spells aren't really much of an upgrade. Healing word is great to have though. The most you are getting out offensively is the increased number of daily spell slots. It's nice not to have to use your 1/2 per short rest spell slots on something like hex. Just a couple levels isn't bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crgaston View Post
    If you go to 4, you may as well go to 5 for Cutting Words as a Short Rest recharge and 3rd level Bard spells.

    If you really want 9th Level spells, then stopping at 3 and waiting a few levels for your 20 Cha would be worth it.
    If you are go to bard 4, definitely grab that fifth level for sure.

    The real question is why MC? What are you looking to gain?
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-08-20 at 10:20 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Bard isn't a huge value dip. It's great for more skills and the jack of all trades, but it won't add a whole lot to the build (in combat). Bard spells aren't really much of an upgrade. Healing word is great to have though. The most you are getting out offensively is the increased number of daily spell slots. It's nice not to have to use your 1/2 per short rest spell slots on something like hex. Just a couple levels isn't bad.



    If you are go to bard 4, definitely grab that fifth level for sure.

    The real question is why MC? What are you looking to gain?
    I'm looking for A, a little bit of flavor that matches my character, B, those spell slots you mentioned, C, Bardic Inspiration, D, Jack of All Trades, and E, some spells that I cant get as a GOOlock ((Silence, Healing Word, etc))

    Thank you to both of you for this btw

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    In my current group, we have one Wizard who dipped Fighter and the rest are all triple classed. I'm pretty sure most of them have used this resource extensively. Thanks so much for the time and effort that has gone into making this.

  19. - Top - End - #289
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Really awesome work, thanks!

    I don't know if it's more detail than you're looking for, but one drawback of Paladin X/Warlock < 3 is weapon choice - a pact weapon can't have the two handed property at those levels, and you can only pick one, so you're strongly pushed towards sword and board rather than two handed or double weapons, and you can't use a sword and a lance as Cha wrapons on the same day. At Warlock >= 3, you have more flexibility, but once you get a magic weapon as your pact weapon, you won't be able to switch at will to a lance or other specialized weapon.
    Last edited by BaconAwesome; 2018-08-21 at 01:35 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #290
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by nmitchell2 View Post
    In my current group, we have one Wizard who dipped Fighter and the rest are all triple classed. I'm pretty sure most of them have used this resource extensively. Thanks so much for the time and effort that has gone into making this.
    Happy to help. I have yet further updates planned for the guide. Iím just waiting for the next book so I donít have to double work. More to come.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  21. - Top - End - #291
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Hi I'm starting my first game of D&D in a couple days and need to get my character sheet half figured out as well as know what I'm going to take for the first few levels(so it doesn't take forever for me to figure it out). I have read up on most of the rules and characters so far I find the warlock to be the most interesting and definitely want to multiclass. Most of the people I'm playing with are experienced and will be trying to build as OP as possible.

    I'm trying to decide between Warlock Fighter, Warlock Paladin, Paladin Warlock, and Warlock Sorcerer. I like the idea of a melee caster but a glass cannon Warlock Sorcerer sounds fun. Let me know what you think has an edge (in terms of desemating groups of creatures and spanking bosses) and what paths cantrips and spells I should be taking for the first bit. I've read on a lot of the spells but having never played I'm not sure how it will all come together, like in this build

    Human V.
    Paladin 6+/Hexblade 1+
    15, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16

    Take Hexblade 1 at second level and max cha. Swings and smites and spells and saves are all off one stat. Curse increases crit chance for more powerful smites. Very potent build.

    Is it not redundant to have high str if you are using cha for attack rolls?
    Props to this guide it has helped a lot so far!
    Last edited by Durge; 2018-08-25 at 02:36 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Durge View Post
    Hi I'm starting my first game of D&D in a couple days and need to get my character sheet half figured out as well as know what I'm going to take for the first few levels(so it doesn't take forever for me to figure it out). I have read up on most of the rules and characters so far I find the warlock to be the most interesting and definitely want to multiclass. Most of the people I'm playing with are experienced and will be trying to build as OP as possible.

    I'm trying to decide between Warlock Fighter, Warlock Paladin, Paladin Warlock, and Warlock Sorcerer. I like the idea of a melee caster but a glass cannon Warlock Sorcerer sounds fun. Let me know what you think has an edge (in terms of desemating groups of creatures and spanking bosses) and what paths cantrips and spells I should be taking for the first bit. I've read on a lot of the spells but having never played I'm not sure how it will all come together, like in this build

    Human V.
    Paladin 6+/Hexblade 1+
    15, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16

    Take Hexblade 1 at second level and max cha. Swings and smites and spells and saves are all off one stat. Curse increases crit chance for more powerful smites. Very potent build.

    Is it not redundant to have high str if you are using cha for attack rolls?
    Props to this guide it has helped a lot so far!
    That build likely suggests 15 STR because that's what you need to wear Splint and Plate armor without taking a hit to your speed, and you need at least 13 to multiclass as a Paladin anyway.

  23. - Top - End - #293
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    That build likely suggests 15 STR because that's what you need to wear Splint and Plate armor without taking a hit to your speed, and you need at least 13 to multiclass as a Paladin anyway.
    Ok that makes perfect sense. Any advice on what class to take?
    Last edited by Durge; 2018-08-25 at 01:15 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #294
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Durge View Post
    Ok that makes perfect sense. Any advice on what class to take?
    The paladin hexblade example build is probably one of the most overpowered melee builds in the game for warlocks. Getting that charisma to attack, damage, spell save DC, and your own saves is a whole lot of overpowered.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  25. - Top - End - #295
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    How do I get cha to spell save dc and if I take warlock to lv2 what 3 spells should I take

  26. - Top - End - #296
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Durge View Post
    How do I get cha to spell save dc and if I take warlock to lv2 what 3 spells should I take
    You get Cha to Spell Save DC if your spells come from a class that uses Charisma as its spellcasting ability. In other words, you'd have to be a Bard, a Paladin, a Sorcerer, or a Warlock.

    As of now, only wizards, eldritch knights (fighter sub-class), and arcane tricksters (rogue sub-class) use Intelligence, and the rest (cleric, druid, and ranger) use Wisdom. These can't be changed. Spell Save DC's are always calculated depending on which class grants you the spell you're about to cast.

    For example, if you had levels in both cleric and sorcerer, every spell you cast chosen from cleric spell list use Wisdom as their Spell Save DC and every spell you cast chosen from sorcerer spell list use Charisma. Regardless of you being multiclassed. Even if the spells chosen would appear on both classes lists. The class which list you chose to cast the spell from dictates what ability you use.

    However, there are ways to get spells from other classes to count as spells for your actual class.

    Bards can choose several spells at certain levels (10th, 14th, and 18th) from classes other than their own, and Lore Bards can choose 2 more at 6th level.

    Divine Soul Sorcerer can choose any or all of its spells from the cleric spell list, and since Divine Soul is a Sorcerer, all those spells chosen from cleric list use Charisma as their spellcasting ability.

    PS. The colors were chosen arbitrarily, with the only purpose to draw attention to which classes use which ability.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2018-08-27 at 01:42 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #297
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Thanks! That makes sense.
    We wound up playing a short made up adventure with a mostly different group of people where we had to go through and shut a demonic portal full of demons. we started at Lv4 with basic equip and one rare magic weapon. I am Human Pala LV2, Hex LV2 not sure If I'm calculating everything correctly but I felt very op for LV4.

    Without the magic weapon (long sword, Divine Smite, Dueling, CHA Bonus +4, Baleful Curse or Hex "bonus action")
    (1d8+2d8+2+4+2or1d6=11-36)+2d10 for hellish Rebuke reaction, if I want to spend a slot on it. Which if i'm not mistaken I have 2 LV1 Paladin slots that come back on long rest and 3 LV1 Warlock slots that come back on short rests which prettywell allows me to Smite all day long?
    Also can I use a 1d10 instead of 1d8 with the "versatile" long sword and keep the +2 from "Dueling Fighting Style"?

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Durge View Post
    Thanks! That makes sense.
    We wound up playing a short made up adventure with a mostly different group of people where we had to go through and shut a demonic portal full of demons. we started at Lv4 with basic equip and one rare magic weapon. I am Human Pala LV2, Hex LV2 not sure If I'm calculating everything correctly but I felt very op for LV4.

    Without the magic weapon (long sword, Divine Smite, Dueling, CHA Bonus +4, Baleful Curse or Hex "bonus action")
    (1d8+2d8+2+4+2or1d6=11-36)+2d10 for hellish Rebuke reaction, if I want to spend a slot on it. Which if i'm not mistaken I have 2 LV1 Paladin slots that come back on long rest and 3 LV1 Warlock slots that come back on short rests which prettywell allows me to Smite all day long?
    Also can I use a 1d10 instead of 1d8 with the "versatile" long sword and keep the +2 from "Dueling Fighting Style"?
    You can't use Dueling style if you are using both hands on the weapon. You are better off not going "versatile" as the average 1 damage bump is much worse than the +2 AC of a shield. (Dueling style works with a shield, as written and as intended.)

    You should only have two pact magic (warlock slots) per short rest. Keep in mind you can smite using either type of slot or cast either classes spells using either type of slot.

    The character is indeed quite strong, but will suffer a bit at levels 5-6 when everyone else has extra attack (or 3rd level spells etc) or if you go a long time without any sort of rest.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  29. - Top - End - #299
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    You should only have two pact magic (warlock slots) per short rest. Keep in mind you can smite using either type of slot or cast either classes spells using either type of slot.
    Huh, I was under the impression from the wording that a MC warlock could cast warlock spells or the second classes spells with either spell slots, just like you say, but not smite.
    Eldritch Smite says "you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an
    extra 1d8 force damage to the target..." making it sound like it must be a warlock spell slot.
    The Multi-class Pact magic says "you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know." making it sound like they are not warlock spell slots.
    That would be much more powerful than having only two smites available.
    Skill monkeys, away!

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by saucerhead View Post
    Huh, I was under the impression from the wording that a MC warlock could cast warlock spells or the second classes spells with either spell slots, just like you say, but not smite.
    Eldritch Smite says "you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an
    extra 1d8 force damage to the target..." making it sound like it must be a warlock spell slot.
    The Multi-class Pact magic says "you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know." making it sound like they are not warlock spell slots.
    That would be much more powerful than having only two smites available.
    Spellcasting class feature ≠ Pact Magic class feature. However, both provide Spell Slots, and anything that uses a spell slot can be used with any of those, unless specifically mentioned otherwise (for example, as you quoted, Eldritch Smite).

    Do note, that: Eldritch Smite ≠ Divine Smite.
    They're certainly similar, but not the same thing.

    Eldritch Smite deals force damage and can knock the target prone, and it can be used only with warlock spell slots as written and as intended.
    Divine Smite deals radiant damage and can deal extra damage against certain types of creatures (fiends and undead). Divine Smite can be used with any kind of spell slots. As was written in an errata to be how it was intended.

    For whatever reason, when inquired for a similar errata regarding Eldritch Smite, they said Eldritch Smite is written as intended. Which squarely means it only works with the warlock spell slots.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2018-08-27 at 08:44 AM.

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