Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

[Whit]

Like it. Need to save it

[Whit]

Was wondering in the examples of multiclassibg. What are the filling methods for example monk/ranger. 1 monk then 4 ranger then all monk or start out ranger to 4 then all monk ?

[PeteNutButter]

Was wondering in the examples of multiclassibg. What are the filling methods for example monk/ranger. 1 monk then 4 ranger then all monk or start out ranger to 4 then all monk ?

Generally speaking it's best to get one class to level 5 ASAP, but sometimes it's worth it to take the first level in whichever class has the better features at level one. In the case of ranger/monk it's a fairly small difference, as they get the same saves, and armor is the same once you get ranger either way. If a build involves fighter for instance, it is almost always taken at level 1 since it gives heavy armor more hp, and con save proficiency.

Look at what you get for starting in a class vs what you get for MCing into it, and compare. Saves and heavy armor prof are the biggest factors usually. Other that it comes down to hp and then skill proficiency options.

[Joaov2]

In the Warlock/Fighter section (and probably elsewhere as well) you say

"The proficiencies alone are invaluable, especially the con save to maintain concentration on things like hex and darkness."

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you don't get saving throw proficiencies when you multiclass. You only get what's detailed in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table in p.164 of the phb.

If I'm correct, than this would reduce the desirability of this multiclass, and probably some others where you gave saving throw proficiencies a large weight.

Edit: This has been confirmed by Jeremy Crawford (but I can't post the link, just search [multiclass 5e saving throws sage advice])

[Armored Walrus]

He's saying if you go Fighter first, you start with Con save proficiency, which is nice for your warlock.

[Joaov2]

He's saying if you go Fighter first, you start with Con save proficiency, which is nice for your warlock.

Yeah, you're right

"A warlock who dips fighter likely does so at first level..."

For some reason, I have it drilled in my head than you always start with your intended primary class. Silly me, carry on...

Great guide by the way

[Ekayyy]

Hey Pete,

I noticed you mentioned you built a strength monk in the past. Going barb/monk

You’re right that even in the very early levels you can show up naked and drop someone with an unarmed strike and flurry of blows for
3D4 +str*3+ragebonus*3. If you go reckless you can land your hits fairly easily.

But where do we go from here? It seems like it doesnt get much better from here. Barb would be nice but no more ki gains. Monk is nice but apart Ki and an extra attack (turning your three hits into 4) not much improves Maybe the next step is a trimulticlass?

[PeteNutButter]

Hey Pete,

I noticed you mentioned you built a strength monk in the past. Going barb/monk

You’re right that even in the very early levels you can show up naked and drop someone with an unarmed strike and flurry of blows for
3D4 +str*3+ragebonus*3. If you go reckless you can land your hits fairly easily.

But where do we go from here? It seems like it doesnt get much better from here. Barb would be nice but no more ki gains. Monk is nice but apart Ki and an extra attack (turning your three hits into 4) not much improves Maybe the next step is a trimulticlass?

Good question. I have a Tortle Barb 1/Monk 7 right now . I was planning on taking Barb to 4 at some point just for the stat boost, subclass and extra rage. Monk gives pretty steady improvement up until 14 where you get all your saves, so it's what I was planning on doing.

You need a decent amount of Ki, but let's look after extra attack you get:
6: magic punches, pretty necessary.
7: Evasion & Stillness of Mind, both fantastic defensive features.
8: ASI, always good.
9: Running on water and walls? I mean that's probably cooler than it is practical, but mobility is great on this character.
10: +5 ft movement, Poison immunity, solid damage to have immunity to.
11: one of the weakest martial level 11s, but its more damage. If you aren't in AL, you hsould be a Long Death Monk which makes this one of the strongest levels you could ever ask for. Never die!
12: ASI
13: Poopy pointless level to trudge through to get saves
14: All save prof! yay.

All that being said, that leaves my planned build at Barb 4/Monk 14, X 2. I was thinking about dipping one level in rogue for expertise in athletics. This character can really grapple, with its mobility, always free hands and high strength. Alternatively 2 levels in fighter for action surge could be nice.

If you don't want the higher monk features, you could dip in fighter sooner and take it to 3 or 4 for something like BM moves or champion for increased crit on all those attacks. Ranger would work potentially as well, but those spells conflict with rage. I'd avoid cleric or druid.

IMO you need lots of ki so you can spam those 4 attack rounds as much as possible. Keep in mind the build isn't super hungry for ASIs like most monks, so you can swing a few more feats. You only need 2 to max str, then you'll have another 2-3 to toss on feats.

[Whit]

Peter for the monk grave cleric am I correct that path of the grave is for one single attack

The next timeyou or an ally of yours hits the cursed creature with an attack, the creature has vulnerability to all of the attack’s damage, and then the curse ends.

[PeteNutButter]

Peter for the monk grave cleric am I correct that path of the grave is for one single attack

The next timeyou or an ally of yours hits the cursed creature with an attack, the creature has vulnerability to all of the attack’s damage, and then the curse ends.

Ah yes. Good catch. I'll have to edit that into something more useful.

[Whit]

1. Your work is appreciated. Well done on it and refining it.

The path still,works. You can open hand at high level for a lot of damage

Or give that paladin so uses all his stacks for a big hit. Or a mage spell damage

[Ekayyy]

Hi Pete,

As usual always appreciate your insight.
One thing i’ve been stuck on is the 1 level dip in forge cleric (similar to when people do fighter dips)
If i go first level sorc,
i get con prof
And if i Dip into cleric I get shields, with forge cleric I get plate proficiency and can +1 it
Putting me at a comfy 21 AC at level two
With full caster level whereas a fighter dip would slow my spell slots by a level.

The same dip seems optimal for any wizard and any bard, especially lore/glamour

To be honest I think this build is really optimal for a warforged this is especially scary since they can ignore heavy armors strength requirement. Making this a pretty SAD build apart the 13 wisdom cleric multiclass req.

Lemme no what you think!

[Ebon]

Human V.
Ranger 5/Cleric 5+
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8

For this example build, I'd start with the Sharpshooter feat and tack on war cleric to turn misses into hits.

I realized something fun about this idea. The big benefit of the War Cleric is the War Priest ability that grants bonus action weapon attacks equal to your Wisdom modifier each long rest. This generally stacks with Extra attack, and in the build I made, the Dread Ambusher ability of the Gloom Stalker Ranger. The additional first round attack happens with your regular attacks, as well as an extra d8 Damage if it hits, so you probably want to save the Channel Divinity Guided Strike for that, just to be sure.

It gives me four Sharpshooter attacks as an opening volley, with a Wisdom Bonus to my initiative. As a War Cleric they can also cast Divine Favor for an extra d4 radiant on weapon attacks. After three levels of Cleric, they can cast Magic Weapon as needed. At levels 5 /5 , they will have fourth level slots and can cast Magic Weapon +2 for an hour.

Each attacks' Damage looks like d8 longbow + 4 Dex + d4 radiant + 10 Sharpshooter = 21 Damage per attack x 4 attacks, ( Extra Attack + Dread Ambusher first round + War Priest bonus action) = 84 Damage + d8 bonus on Dread Ambusher Attack = 88.5 Damage on the first round of combat. Probably end up using Guided Strike on one of them as well for a +10 to one of the rolls. This is at Level 6, Level 7 gives the Channel Divinity, and Level 8 brings Magic Weapon.

It uses a lot of subclass abilities, Channel Divinity, a Concentration spell, as well as a feat and first ASI to boost Dex, but it looks pretty solid. From here, I advance as a standard Cleric and add full spellcasting with the couple of extra levels from Ranger. Interesting caveat, when going from Ranger to Cleric, it doesn't actually increase your spell slots or level. Level 5 Ranger gets rounded down to 2 levels of caster on the Multi-class chart, with the added Cleric level, you remain a third level caster if I am not mistaken?

Let me know if this checks out, or if I made any mstakes. Thanks as well for the immensely helpful guide.

[PeteNutButter]

Hi Pete,

As usual always appreciate your insight.
One thing i’ve been stuck on is the 1 level dip in forge cleric (similar to when people do fighter dips)
If i go first level sorc,
i get con prof
And if i Dip into cleric I get shields, with forge cleric I get plate proficiency and can +1 it
Putting me at a comfy 21 AC at level two
With full caster level whereas a fighter dip would slow my spell slots by a level.

The same dip seems optimal for any wizard and any bard, especially lore/glamour

To be honest I think this build is really optimal for a warforged this is especially scary since they can ignore heavy armors strength requirement. Making this a pretty SAD build apart the 13 wisdom cleric multiclass req.

Lemme no what you think!

It is amazing on the warforged, but the others its just good. The MADness (15 str unless you want to be slow) keeps it from being better than fighter. Fighter still offers con saves, which is as good as a feat. In your sorcerer case though (already have con saves), the forge cleric dip seems pretty darn solid.

I realized something fun about this idea. The big benefit of the War Cleric is the War Priest ability that grants bonus action weapon attacks equal to your Wisdom modifier each long rest. This generally stacks with Extra attack, and in the build I made, the Dread Ambusher ability of the Gloom Stalker Ranger. The additional first round attack happens with your regular attacks, as well as an extra d8 Damage if it hits, so you probably want to save the Channel Divinity Guided Strike for that, just to be sure.

It gives me four Sharpshooter attacks as an opening volley, with a Wisdom Bonus to my initiative. As a War Cleric they can also cast Divine Favor for an extra d4 radiant on weapon attacks. After three levels of Cleric, they can cast Magic Weapon as needed. At levels 5 /5 , they will have fourth level slots and can cast Magic Weapon +2 for an hour.

Each attacks' Damage looks like d8 longbow + 4 Dex + d4 radiant + 10 Sharpshooter = 21 Damage per attack x 4 attacks, ( Extra Attack + Dread Ambusher first round + War Priest bonus action) = 84 Damage + d8 bonus on Dread Ambusher Attack = 88.5 Damage on the first round of combat. Probably end up using Guided Strike on one of them as well for a +10 to one of the rolls. This is at Level 6.

It uses a lot of subclass abilities, Channel Divinity, a Concentration spell, as well as a feat and first ASI to boost Dex, but it looks pretty solid. From here, I advance as a standard Cleric and add full spellcasting with the couple of extra levels from Ranger. Interesting caveat, when going from Ranger to Cleric, it doesn't actually increase your spell slots or level. Level 5 Ranger gets rounded down to 2 levels of caster on the Multi-class chart, with the added Cleric level, you remain a third level caster if I am not mistaken?

Let me know if this checks out, or if I made any mstakes. Thanks as well for the immensely helpful guide.

Checks out. Against a single foe, Hunter's Mark would do more damage than Divine Favor, but the favor has the benefit of being spread around. Throw on two levels of fighter for another 3 attacks when you action surge. It's all quite solid.

You're right about the casting not helping at first level. The half and one-third casters both suffer from this when they MC at the "wrong" point. Ranger specifically suffers from this as ranger 6 is utter trash. Check out the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster charts and you'll see the same only worse.

[Ebon]

Throw on two levels of fighter for another 3 attacks when you action surge.

Wow, my first thought was, “he must be wrong, there must be some once per turn on that additional attack” so I went and looked it up. Nope, quite the opposite. On the first round of combat, “If you take the attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action.” Action Surge, and you'd get a second Dread Ambusher damage bonus as well. Adds 67.5 to 88.5 = 156 first round Damage. Yeah, I think that might be worth a couple levels of fighter after 5 Ranger / 5 War cleric.

[gavinator154]

Obviously Monk dipping into fighter works pretty good. The question I have is with a Kensei Monk (Longsword), at what level would be a good idea to dip into Fighter.

(Warning: The DM gave us a large spread to start and a level 1 feat due to worries of us dying at Level 1 in Ravenloft)

My monk is currently just about to hit level 4, and I have to make a couple choices.
His stats are 8-20-12-10-16-13 with AC of 18 or 20 (if I use my Agile Parry).
He has a movement speed of 45 base and can cast Longstrider (Wood Elf Magic feat and Monk).
He also has inherited a sword (DM just gave it to me last session) where I can spend HP on hit to deal more damage (since only official materials are allowed, I couldn't be a Blood Hunter).

This leaves me with several paths I have questions about.

1) What to do at level 4? I was debating taking Durable (Extra hp to burn with the sword), Mobile (65 movement speed and multiple attacks so they can't hit me as I run away), or boosting my Wisdom for the +1 AC.

2) When is a good time to dip 2 levels into fighter? Between a Fighting Style (Dueling), Second Wind for HP, and Action Surge, it is just too good to pass up.

Any Suggestions?

[PeteNutButter]

Obviously Monk dipping into fighter works pretty good. The question I have is with a Kensei Monk (Longsword), at what level would be a good idea to dip into Fighter.

(Warning: The DM gave us a large spread to start and a level 1 feat due to worries of us dying at Level 1 in Ravenloft)

My monk is currently just about to hit level 4, and I have to make a couple choices.
His stats are 8-20-12-10-16-13 with AC of 18 or 20 (if I use my Agile Parry).
He has a movement speed of 45 base and can cast Longstrider (Wood Elf Magic feat and Monk).
He also has inherited a sword (DM just gave it to me last session) where I can spend HP on hit to deal more damage (since only official materials are allowed, I couldn't be a Blood Hunter).

This leaves me with several paths I have questions about.

1) What to do at level 4? I was debating taking Durable (Extra hp to burn with the sword), Mobile (65 movement speed and multiple attacks so they can't hit me as I run away), or boosting my Wisdom for the +1 AC.

2) When is a good time to dip 2 levels into fighter? Between a Fighting Style (Dueling), Second Wind for HP, and Action Surge, it is just too good to pass up.

Any Suggestions?

1) Mobile feat is the best of feats for monks. As long as you have someone else that can stand in melee (the stickier the better), I'd take Mobile. If not, they'll just chase you down, so it's pointless. In that case just boost wisdom for stunning strike DC and AC. Either way I'd recommend boosting wisdom with your next ASI.

2) The simple answer is after monk 5. As soon as you get extra attack you open yourself up to MCing. Monk 6 is campaign dependent. If your DM is fond of enemies that are immune or resistant to non-magical attacks, and doesn't give you magic weapons, you'll need monk 6 ASAP. Keep in mind action surge isn't that big of a damage boost on monks compared to other classes, since monks get up to half of their attacks on their bonus action. Action surge doesn't give a bonus action. You may also find dueling style is only +1 damage compared to using the sword versatile.

[gavinator154]

1) Mobile feat is the best of feats for monks. As long as you have someone else that can stand in melee (the stickier the better), I'd take Mobile. If not, they'll just chase you down, so it's pointless. In that case just boost wisdom for stunning strike DC and AC. Either way I'd recommend boosting wisdom with your next ASI.

2) The simple answer is after monk 5. As soon as you get extra attack you open yourself up to MCing. Monk 6 is campaign dependent. If your DM is fond of enemies that are immune or resistant to non-magical attacks, and doesn't give you magic weapons, you'll need monk 6 ASAP. Keep in mind action surge isn't that big of a damage boost on monks compared to other classes, since monks get up to half of their attacks on their bonus action. Action surge doesn't give a bonus action. You may also find dueling style is only +1 damage compared to using the sword versatile.

1) I figured, Mobile just seemed so good. Not only am I crazy fast, I can attack several foes and none of them can get those Oppurtunity Attacks.

2) I thought Action Surge DID get a bonus action? Maybe it is just the wording but in the PBH 72:

Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action.

I thought this meant you get an action, bonus action, action, bonus action. If that works differently, please do tell me.

3) I forgot Versatile. Maybe I'll take Archery, I took Longbow for the Kensai.

[PeteNutButter]

1) I figured, Mobile just seemed so good. Not only am I crazy fast, I can attack several foes and none of them can get those Oppurtunity Attacks.

2) I thought Action Surge DID get a bonus action? Maybe it is just the wording but in the PBH 72:

Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action.

I thought this meant you get an action, bonus action, action, bonus action. If that works differently, please do tell me.

3) I forgot Versatile. Maybe I'll take Archery, I took Longbow for the Kensai.

2) That action surge thing gets a lot of people. Read it again, really carefully. It's saying "take one additional action" because you normally get just one action and a bonus action. It's a classic case of horribly written game rules. It should just say, "On your turn, you can take one additional action." It doesn't need to go on and list what actions by type you normally get. But that's what it does.

3) If you're going the archery route... take SS as your feat.

[gavinator154]

2) That action surge thing gets a lot of people. Read it again, really carefully. It's saying "take one additional action" because you normally get just one action and a bonus action. It's a classic case of horribly written game rules. It should just say, "On your turn, you can take one additional action." It doesn't need to go on and list what actions by type you normally get. But that's what it does.

3) If you're going the archery route... take SS as your feat.

2) I got it. That is some Magic the Gathering writing.
3) That isn't my main route, but if I do take 2 levels of fighter, what do you think I should take for fighting style? None of them fit overly well, but I get something for it.

[PeteNutButter]

2)
3) That isn't my main route, but if I do take 2 levels of fighter, what do you think I should take for fighting style? None of them fit overly well, but I get something for it.

Still Dueling Style. +1 damage is better than nothing. In theory you could hit level 17 in monk and get 1d10 one-handed, making versatile irrelevant.

I'd probably take 4 levels of fighter though. That way you aren't behind on ASIs and can nab a subclass, probably Battle Master, but any could work. Even Eldritch Knight wouldn't be bad, casting shield 3/day can save your life.

[gavinator154]

Still Dueling Style. +1 damage is better than nothing. In theory you could hit level 17 in monk and get 1d10 one-handed, making versatile irrelevant.

I'd probably take 4 levels of fighter though. That way you aren't behind on ASIs and can nab a subclass, probably Battle Master, but any could work. Even Eldritch Knight wouldn't be bad, casting shield 3/day can save your life.

I just went back through, I think you are right. 4 levels in another class would be better. The things I lose from the last 4 levels of Kensei monk would be worth the multiclassing plus keep me on track for my ability score increase. Now I have more options thought, because cleric seems really fun XD But I have a better understanding of how this should work now. Thank you

[Ekayyy]

It is amazing on the warforged, but the others its just good. The MADness (15 str unless you want to be slow) keeps it from being better than fighter. Fighter still offers con saves, which is as good as a feat. In your sorcerer case though (already have con saves), the forge cleric dip seems pretty darn solid my homie g.

I tried optimizing a little further. Currently a forge cleric dip lets me be tanky and waforged lets me pump con and charisma. The real shame is finding a way to use booming blade warcaster with such low str/dex. To keep people from running away from spirit guardianS (especially if i keep using the dodge action and Shield to be a bad target. I considered magic initiate for sheillage but im not a vuman but what about a single level dip in hexblade for all the frontloaded goodies and the charisma attacks.

Although at this point im probably falling from an armored caster thats safe in the back twinning a big polymorph to a weird cleric/wannabesorcadin risking myself for not much

[sunshine2222]

Hey I noticed you suggested

Human V. (PAM)
Barbarian 1/Fiend Bladelock 5+
16, 14, 14, 8, 9, 13

Armor of Agathys is made even better once combined with resistance to damage, effectively doubling how long it holds up. Fire Shield comes online much later, but also can be cast before raging. These thorns type effects make the barbarian's reckless attack seem like a win-win. Fiend refills THP when AoA runs out. Great against mooks, and melee foes, but might struggle at range.


I'm trying to build an optimal Barbarian Warlock. I think in a fight the hexblade curse is going to pay off more cause ull hit the bigbad for 3*proficiency (attack attack PAM attack) with double crit chance and like you said, reckless combat. I think that really outweighs the charisma+warlock level THP. The curse can be applied while raging and its a short rest ability, so ya the big bad basically, and as you know a bigger crit pool is nice for the eldritch smite later on.

Also reckless is after level 1. I think from your wealth of knowledge youre envisioning something like Barb 1, Warlock to 5, then bear totem to 3, then continue on into warlock or something else

Anyway ya, hope to hear from you soon.

[PeteNutButter]

Hey I noticed you suggested

Human V. (PAM)
Barbarian 1/Fiend Bladelock 5+
16, 14, 14, 8, 9, 13

Armor of Agathys is made even better once combined with resistance to damage, effectively doubling how long it holds up. Fire Shield comes online much later, but also can be cast before raging. These thorns type effects make the barbarian's reckless attack seem like a win-win. Fiend refills THP when AoA runs out. Great against mooks, and melee foes, but might struggle at range.


I'm trying to build an optimal Barbarian Warlock. I think in a fight the hexblade curse is going to pay off more cause ull hit the bigbad for 3*proficiency (attack attack PAM attack) with double crit chance and like you said, reckless combat. I think that really outweighs the charisma+warlock level THP. The curse can be applied while raging and its a short rest ability, so ya the big bad basically, and as you know a bigger crit pool is nice for the eldritch smite later on.

Also reckless is after level 1. I think from your wealth of knowledge youre envisioning something like Barb 1, Warlock to 5, then bear totem to 3, then continue on into warlock or something else

Anyway ya, hope to hear from you soon.

After the Hexblade came out I went through and changed most of these to Hexblade. I left any that could be argued for as something else as that something else, just for diversity. With that said, Hexblade is probably best.

I said Barb 1/lock 5 so as not to confuse leveling order, but you’re right in thinking I’d probably go back to barb after lock 5. Barb 4/Lock x is a good idea, as I don’t like to leave a class right before an ASI. By level 15 you get your 3 rages, 3 smites, and +cha to damage. It’s pretty nice. Makes me want to play one...

[MaxWilson]

I'm trying to build an optimal Barbarian Warlock. I think in a fight the hexblade curse is going to pay off more cause ull hit the bigbad for 3*proficiency (attack attack PAM attack) with double crit chance and like you said, reckless combat. I think that really outweighs the charisma+warlock level THP. The curse can be applied while raging and its a short rest ability, so ya the big bad basically, and as you know a bigger crit pool is nice for the eldritch smite later on.

Note that Fiendlock has a better action economy--you can't use Hexblade's Curse on any round when you start Rage with your bonus action, nor can you use GWM extra attacks when you do either of those.

Fiendlock also does better of course against hordes because you can get free temp HP on every kill and drop Fireballs, and hordes are normally a Barbarian's downfall: you'll do fine against 10,000 XP worth of Dire Troll or Nalfeshnee, but 10,000 XP worth of Githyanki Warriors or Goblins will nibble you to death.

Hexblade/Barbarian isn't horrible and has advantages of its own (you can still get temp HP from Armor of Agathys) but Fiendlock/Barbarian is clearly more versatile IMO, though also more MAD (i.e. rarer to roll good enough stats for).

[sunshine2222]

After the Hexblade came out I went through and changed most of these to Hexblade. I left any that could be argued for as something else as that something else, just for diversity. With that said, Hexblade is probably best.

I said Barb 1/lock 5 so as not to confuse leveling order, but you’re right in thinking I’d probably go back to barb after lock 5. Barb 4/Lock x is a good idea, as I don’t like to leave a class right before an ASI. By level 15 you get your 3 rages, 3 smites, and +cha to damage. It’s pretty nice. Makes me want to play one...

Note that Fiendlock has a better action economy--you can't use Hexblade's Curse on any round when you start Rage with your bonus action, nor can you use GWM extra attacks when you do either of those.

Fiendlock also does better of course against hordes because you can get free temp HP on every kill and drop Fireballs, and hordes are normally a Barbarian's downfall: you'll do fine against 10,000 XP worth of Dire Troll or Nalfeshnee, but 10,000 XP worth of Githyanki Warriors or Goblins will nibble you to death.

Hexblade/Barbarian isn't horrible and has advantages of its own (you can still get temp HP from Armor of Agathys) but Fiendlock/Barbarian is clearly more versatile IMO, though also more MAD (i.e. rarer to roll good enough stats for).

I think we can Summarize for everyone else who is theorycrafting with the following...

Hexblade Barbarians

buffing up may be clunky with all those bonus actions but it starts off super strong. Every fight you have someone marked for death and that kill is going to give you temp hp to hopefully keep going (or just put it on the boss and go Ham).
Hexblade curse 1/short rest is your biggest benefit due to its crit range and proficiency damage. hitting for weapon dmg (modifier + rage +proficiency = good dmg)

STATS are tricky with a hexbarb. I assumed initially that building like a barb with 13 cha is optimal for rage dmg and reckless attack. However...
1) your agonizing blasts will sucks if you ever need to range
2) Low charisma means hexblade temp HP is only 3temphps at character level 3, when a cha build would have been 6 or even 7.
3) Cloak of flies is gonna hit for 1 dmg instead of 4-5 later on.
4) Later on you can add your +cha to dmg, again, a measily +1 as opposed to +4-5

Sadly, I don't suspect either of us rolled god stats of 18 str, 18 con, 14 dex, 14 wis and 18 cha.

Fiend Barb

Fiend barb provides us with two things.
1) Amazing spell selection
Obviously we are building an armor of agathys resistance monster - still its nice that every Fiend spell provides a top tier spell, scorching ray (big scaler), fireball, fire shield, hallow,
2) Temp hp when you kill. Cha +warlock level. Again same problem, your cha will probably suck so it won't start strong

STATS
You actually need MORE godtier stats than a hexblade, only because you can only hit with strength, at least the hexblade could swing with CHA. (does this make sense? maybe not)
Anyway, if you DO! Have amazing Cha somehow, you're starting at level 2 as a heck of a challenge when every add you kill can give you 5 temp hp to keep going

However, truthfully, the hexblade gets this once per fight anyway, and in all likely your cha stat is going to be awful,.

It would be cool to make a hordebreaker type of fiend warlock with GWM, melting the weaker monsters and siphoning life to jump on someone else, especially if you softened everything with Fireball first.

Realistically, I think you do need Rage to make armor of agathys provide big value, and when youre raging you want that high STR, cause you cant access darkness/devil shenanigans for adv and we do want that +rage dmg.

I think if you rolled 18,16,14, 13,12,12. Even those stats are better for hexblade going 18 str 16 con 14 dex (medium armor) 13 cha 12 wis 12 int.

If you rolled 18 18 18 18 18 18 then you can happily fiend warlock it up.

Hmm....Maybe im missing something obvious, anyway.

[PeteNutButter]

Bender: Hahahahahahaha! LOL


Bender: Oh wait you're serious. Let me laugh even harder. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! LMAO

...do you have a point? Or an argument?

I welcome discussion and have changed many things here based on community input, but just trolling isn’t helpful.

[PeteNutButter]

Huh, a day later and no response. I was expecting PeteNutButter to take offense to my "cringe at opinion" statement and restate his "sorcerers are inferior to wizards lol" opinion or something similar to that. Kinda disappointing tbh. Oh well.....

I gave you a chance to state your point, and you instead went for insults and attempts to bait me into defending my stance. So, I had no choice but to treat you like a troll and ignore you. If you wish to make a case for sorcerer being better than wizard (or anything else for that matter), you may do so in a logical fashion free from derision, in which case I'd be happy to engage with you.

[iTreeby]

Your sorcerer write up has some inaccuracies. The font of magic feature let's them re-gain spell slots and you can cast a cantrip the same turn you cast a quicken spell. Granted the sorcerer has to choose between more spells vrs enhanced spells while a wizard has both, the comparison is not as bleek as you make it out to be.

Personality I would compare sorcerer with the other charisma casting classes instead of wizard due to the perceived difference between intelligence and Charisma.

Maybe the are the points the troll would make if they weren't trolling? I think it's a great guide and very helpful.