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  1. - Top - End - #391
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    You don't think the 6th level death/grave features are worth that much of a dip? Hmmm I wonder whether its more a rogue with roleplay that is the better fit then.

  2. - Top - End - #392
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    You don't think the 6th level death/grave features are worth that much of a dip? Hmmm I wonder whether its more a rogue with roleplay that is the better fit then.
    Sorry for the delayed response, but yes I don't think 6th cleric is worth it for most rogue builds. A single level cleric dip is quite good though if you have the wisdom for it. Healing word alone makes you a huge asset to the team. Bless is great, and SoF (Bonus action!) is great if you need to off-tank.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  3. - Top - End - #393
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    To whom it may concern, I made a small list listing the multi-classes ranked optimized and above:
    Barbarian - Fighter
    Bard - Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Paladin
    Cleric - Ranger
    Druid - Cleric
    Fighter - Barbarian, Rogue
    Monk - Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue
    Paladin - Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock
    Ranger - Cleric, Fighter, Rogue
    Rogue - Fighter, Ranger
    Sorcerer - Paladin, Warlock
    Warlock - Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer
    Wizard - Cleric, Fighter

  4. - Top - End - #394
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Jun 2019

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I'm not a usually a min-maxer in D&D but I'm wanting to know your thoughts on my build.

    Race unimportant here as I have been reincarnated. >.>

    I have a fighter I've been playing for 3 years, he's level 10 fighter (Cavalier on a Boar)(Two Handed Fighting Style), with 3 in Paladin (Vengeance)(Protection) and 3 in ranger (Beast Master: Mostly to boost the mount)(Defense Fighting Style)

    I intend on taking the rest into fighter.

    Took the Mobile and Tough feats. Uses shield with Lance while mounted and one handed on foot. He's killer out in the open and a veritable wall on his feet. Because of certain magical items, he's resistant to necrotic and fire damage, while being able to cast True Strike as a bonus action.

    Weapons/Shield/Armor:
    Armor: Crimson Shadow Plate +2 (Crafted/Enchanted) - Req. Attunement. Red-Shadow Dragon Scale Armor with resistance to necrotic and fire damage. On a successful dexterity save vs Dragon Breath, reflects force damage back at the attacker.
    Shield: Sentinel Shield (Purchased) - You know this one.
    Lance: Halcyon +3 (Looted) - Req. Attunement. Additional 2d6 Lightning damage.
    Warhammer +3 (Purchased)
    Gauntlets of Guiding (Looted) - Req. Attunement. Allows wearer to cast Truestrike as a Bonus Action 3 times per day.

    Played from level 1 now level 16. Things are getting crazy.

    Also, I had a request as well. Next character I'm wanting to build a Necromancer Knight. Wanting to build the antithesis of my current character. What would your suggestions be?
    Last edited by XplosivePizza; 2019-06-21 at 11:46 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #395
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Nov 2015
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by XplosivePizza View Post
    I'm not a usually a min-maxer in D&D but I'm wanting to know your thoughts on my build.

    Race unimportant here as I have been reincarnated. >.>

    I have a fighter I've been playing for 3 years, he's level 10 fighter (Cavalier on a Boar)(Two Handed Fighting Style), with 3 in Paladin (Vengeance)(Protection) and 3 in ranger (Beast Master: Mostly to boost the mount)(Defense Fighting Style)

    I intend on taking the rest into fighter.

    Took the Mobile and Tough feats. Uses shield with Lance while mounted and one handed on foot. He's killer out in the open and a veritable wall on his feet. Because of certain magical items, he's resistant to necrotic and fire damage, while being able to cast True Strike as a bonus action.

    Weapons/Shield/Armor:
    Armor: Crimson Shadow Plate +2 (Crafted/Enchanted) - Req. Attunement. Red-Shadow Dragon Scale Armor with resistance to necrotic and fire damage. On a successful dexterity save vs Dragon Breath, reflects force damage back at the attacker.
    Shield: Sentinel Shield (Purchased) - You know this one.
    Lance: Halcyon +3 (Looted) - Req. Attunement. Additional 2d6 Lightning damage.
    Warhammer +3 (Purchased)
    Gauntlets of Guiding (Looted) - Req. Attunement. Allows wearer to cast Truestrike as a Bonus Action 3 times per day.

    Played from level 1 now level 16. Things are getting crazy.

    Also, I had a request as well. Next character I'm wanting to build a Necromancer Knight. Wanting to build the antithesis of my current character. What would your suggestions be?
    Interesting mixture of classes. Generally speaking you can toss together loads of martial classes and end up strong. Looking at what you've got, I'd say you should have probably taken fighter 11 a long long time ago. It's a huge breakpoint for 3 attacks. Other than that, consider taking the 4th level in both your splat classes. Those ASIs are quite helpful, and each would give another "caster level" for more smites.

    As for an opposite character... A conquest paladin is probably a good choice. Or if a DM allows Oathbreaker, but its a bit overpowered IMO. You could splash in some more caster levels as desired for powered up smites. Oathbreaker/Necromancer is MAD but has lots of synergy with undead minions.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  6. - Top - End - #396
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Jun 2019

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    As for an opposite character... A conquest paladin is probably a good choice. Or if a DM allows Oathbreaker, but its a bit overpowered IMO. You could splash in some more caster levels as desired for powered up smites. Oathbreaker/Necromancer is MAD but has lots of synergy with undead minions.
    Any SRD or anything from Matt Mercer is allowed in our campaign. Also we don't do ability point buy in, we roll for stats.

    I'd like to get away from fighter and paladin, I know it's an odd request, but I'm just trying to mix things up as I always lean towards those two.

    Wanting a front line that can take hits or mitigate them at least, but not traditional sword and board. Barbarian/Druid (Battlerager/Moon), Rogue/Monk/Cleric (AT/Shadow/Trickery), Bloodhunter/Druid (Lycan/Moon). Got a night theme going here it seems. Just looking for some thoughts.

  7. - Top - End - #397
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by XplosivePizza View Post
    Any SRD or anything from Matt Mercer is allowed in our campaign. Also we don't do ability point buy in, we roll for stats.

    I'd like to get away from fighter and paladin, I know it's an odd request, but I'm just trying to mix things up as I always lean towards those two.

    Wanting a front line that can take hits or mitigate them at least, but not traditional sword and board. Barbarian/Druid (Battlerager/Moon), Rogue/Monk/Cleric (AT/Shadow/Trickery), Bloodhunter/Druid (Lycan/Moon). Got a night theme going here it seems. Just looking for some thoughts.
    If want to be able to take hits, barbarian is the way to go. Personally I’m not a big fan of moon Druid-barbarian. Moon Druid doesn’t scale well unless you invest tons of levels into it and the you’ll find your spells are better than rage most of the time. It’ll be fun at key levels, but overall not my favorite.

    Several cleric options are strong with barbarian. Channel divinities work while raging and warding bond is a bit silly while your raging.

    Maybe combine your ideas and make something super diverse like a barbarian 5/rogue 5/cleric x. Could sneak it a few levels of Ranger or monk if you like as well.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  8. - Top - End - #398
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    If want to be able to take hits, barbarian is the way to go. Personally I’m not a big fan of moon Druid-barbarian. Moon Druid doesn’t scale well unless you invest tons of levels into it and the you’ll find your spells are better than rage most of the time. It’ll be fun at key levels, but overall not my favorite.

    Several cleric options are strong with barbarian. Channel divinities work while raging and warding bond is a bit silly while your raging.

    Maybe combine your ideas and make something super diverse like a barbarian 5/rogue 5/cleric x. Could sneak it a few levels of Ranger or monk if you like as well.
    I'll do some theory crafting and see what I can come up with. It's a shame druid and barbarian don't mesh well, how are you supposed to get good shaman flavor in your character?

    Thanks a lot!

  9. - Top - End - #399
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    May 2018

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by XplosivePizza View Post
    I'll do some theory crafting and see what I can come up with. It's a shame druid and barbarian don't mesh well, how are you supposed to get good shaman flavor in your character?

    Thanks a lot!
    You might be able to make something by mixing barbarian and spore druid. Spore would get you a use for your wildshift that gives you temp hp (4 per druid level) and do an extra d6 of poison damage per hit. If you get PAM you could get three hits (assuming you go at least 5 barb/X druid) with advantage and do 3d6 extra damage, as long as the temp hp lasts. You would be pretty strapped for levels, trying to balance enough temp hp to make it last and still getting barbarian goodies but it's the best thing I can think of for mixing barb and druid. It stinks it's poison damage but at least it's something.
    Last edited by Daghoulish; 2019-06-24 at 02:10 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #400
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Sep 2017

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Sorry if I missed this - if I dip hexblade for the armor and shield proficiency, do I have to take hexblade first?

    (In other words, the Players Guide says that multiclassing warlock after first level only gets you light armor proficiency, but hexblade has medium armor and shields proficiency as a class feature - which one wins?)

    ETA: Thanks!
    Last edited by BaconAwesome; 2019-06-24 at 06:39 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #401
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by BaconAwesome View Post
    Sorry if I missed this - if I dip hexblade for the armor and shield proficiency, do I have to take hexblade first?

    (In other words, the Players Guide says that multiclassing warlock after first level only gets you light armor proficiency, but hexblade has medium armor and shield proficiency as a class feature - which one wins?)
    No. Subclass features are earned regardless of which level the class is obtained. A wizard could take a cleric level at any point and get heavy armor proficiency(provided he picks the right domain), since it comes from the subclass. The same would be true for hexblade.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2019-06-24 at 06:00 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #402
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    To whom it may concern, I made a small list listing the multi-classes ranked optimized and above:
    That is great Thank you.

  13. - Top - End - #403
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter
    Sure what's the details?
    Hey PeteNut, your DM's are full/need to be cleared and I might be heading off for the night soon, so figured I'd reply to your optimizing post just incase you never noticed/cleared your messages.

    So, we are starting at Level 5, and we can start the game with either two uncommon magical items or one rare magical item. We also had some extra starting gold for gear.

    Our party consists of:

    • A Divine Soul Sorcerer
    • A Ranger/Druid who is going to be running around on her mount as a small race.
    • Me, a Vengeance Paladin with a Hexblade dip.


    I know its a commonly well-regarded multiclass and hard to mess up, but I'd like to optimize it to the best of my ability, within concept/design space of the character.

    He's a paladin from an order of blackguards/dark knights. They're all criminals or knights who lost their honor. They live in a society ripe with concepts of law and justice. So short of being exiled or executed, you can join this order of knights who go around hunting monsters and killing demons which plague the land quite a bit. Think like Witchers meet the Nights Watch. Instead of partaking in weird alchemical rituals they drink the blood of fiends and can bind the will of a fiend to their blades. The first little story beat involves us fighting off a devil-worshipping cult who is trying to take over/instill power within a region of land that is vast, untamed, and sort of loose. So its easy pickings for a cult when these little villages are so far away from the main city/ruling power of the kingdom.

    So, here are my questions:

    • Best race: I'm thinking Variant Human or Half Elf. And in general for roleplay reasons I'm kinda boring and tend to prefer the more vanilla races. So this works just fine for me.
    • Best starting level spread: I'm thinking Paladin 4/Hexblade 1, to at least have the 1 level in hexblade, even if it is delaying my extra attack by one level. The one level has a lot of benefits early on. Sadly CHA to a Greatsword is not one of them.
    • Best weapon: I'm personally biased/leaning toward a Greatsword with either a crit fishing or GWM build. That's kind of the way I envisoned the character in my head. BUT my ears are open to hear about the benefits of a polearm or a sword and shield on a Hexadin.
    • Best magical items to start the game with: It's two uncommon or one rare magical item I can choose. A +2 Greatsword or a Flametongue seems juicy to me. Though the campaign will feature cultists and fiends so maybe not the latter.


    Here are answers to some potential followup questions you might have:

    • Starting Gear: I had like 600 or 800 gold to play with. Best armor I can take is Splint. And yes, I'd like to use Heavy Armor because nobody else in the party is good at STR and i think its important for at least one person in a party to be good at it. Even if I leave my strength like at a 15 instead of a 16.
    • Any UA: Some of it. The DM is allowing some of the UA Feats so I caaan take something like say, Blade Mastery, for a +1 to sword attack rolls.


    Thanks for taking the time to read through this! I really appreciate it.

  14. - Top - End - #404
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Nov 2015
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Aequilix View Post
    Hey PeteNut, your DM's are full/need to be cleared and I might be heading off for the night soon, so figured I'd reply to your optimizing post just incase you never noticed/cleared your messages.

    So, we are starting at Level 5, and we can start the game with either two uncommon magical items or one rare magical item. We also had some extra starting gold for gear.

    Our party consists of:

    • A Divine Soul Sorcerer
    • A Ranger/Druid who is going to be running around on her mount as a small race.
    • Me, a Vengeance Paladin with a Hexblade dip.


    I know its a commonly well-regarded multiclass and hard to mess up, but I'd like to optimize it to the best of my ability, within concept/design space of the character.

    He's a paladin from an order of blackguards/dark knights. They're all criminals or knights who lost their honor. They live in a society ripe with concepts of law and justice. So short of being exiled or executed, you can join this order of knights who go around hunting monsters and killing demons which plague the land quite a bit. Think like Witchers meet the Nights Watch. Instead of partaking in weird alchemical rituals they drink the blood of fiends and can bind the will of a fiend to their blades. The first little story beat involves us fighting off a devil-worshipping cult who is trying to take over/instill power within a region of land that is vast, untamed, and sort of loose. So its easy pickings for a cult when these little villages are so far away from the main city/ruling power of the kingdom.

    So, here are my questions:

    • Best race: I'm thinking Variant Human or Half Elf. And in general for roleplay reasons I'm kinda boring and tend to prefer the more vanilla races. So this works just fine for me.
    • Best starting level spread: I'm thinking Paladin 4/Hexblade 1, to at least have the 1 level in hexblade, even if it is delaying my extra attack by one level. The one level has a lot of benefits early on. Sadly CHA to a Greatsword is not one of them.
    • Best weapon: I'm personally biased/leaning toward a Greatsword with either a crit fishing or GWM build. That's kind of the way I envisoned the character in my head. BUT my ears are open to hear about the benefits of a polearm or a sword and shield on a Hexadin.
    • Best magical items to start the game with: It's two uncommon or one rare magical item I can choose. A +2 Greatsword or a Flametongue seems juicy to me. Though the campaign will feature cultists and fiends so maybe not the latter.


    Here are answers to some potential followup questions you might have:

    • Starting Gear: I had like 600 or 800 gold to play with. Best armor I can take is Splint. And yes, I'd like to use Heavy Armor because nobody else in the party is good at STR and i think its important for at least one person in a party to be good at it. Even if I leave my strength like at a 15 instead of a 16.
    • Any UA: Some of it. The DM is allowing some of the UA Feats so I caaan take something like say, Blade Mastery, for a +1 to sword attack rolls.


    Thanks for taking the time to read through this! I really appreciate it.
    Are you dead set on Vengeance? If you want to crit fish that means darkness cheesing most likely, which means vengeance advantage will not be as big of a help to your kit. Conquest on the hand has a similar feel and most players find it to be more fun in my experience.

    On the topic of crit fishing... it's generally not that great of a strategy. It's not reliable, and the average damage increase isn't usually worth any heavy investment. If want to do it, have at it. It's fun, but just take GWM and a +2 weapon if you want to be optimal. You could do both, but there are some trade offs, at least early on. If you want to be best at crit fishing, I'd recommend Half Elf for elven accuracy. Otherwise, I'd recommend V Human for GWM.

    If you want to use a greatsword and are starting at level 5, your character is going to be a bit unwieldy for a bit. You either start with Paladin 2/Hexblade 3, and are 3 levels behind on extra attack, though GFB and BB can shore up that weakness a bit. OR you start more paladin and are unable to use cha to attack until level 8. I'd probably go with option A, but recognize your damage is going to be weaker than a straight paladin, until you pick up paladin 5.

    For the uncommon item, Winged Boots are always broken, or Cloak of Protection if you just want better numbers.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  15. - Top - End - #405
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Are you dead set on Vengeance? If you want to crit fish that means darkness cheesing most likely, which means vengeance advantage will not be as big of a help to your kit. Conquest on the hand has a similar feel and most players find it to be more fun in my experience.

    On the topic of crit fishing... it's generally not that great of a strategy. It's not reliable, and the average damage increase isn't usually worth any heavy investment. If want to do it, have at it. It's fun, but just take GWM and a +2 weapon if you want to be optimal. You could do both, but there are some trade offs, at least early on. If you want to be best at crit fishing, I'd recommend Half Elf for elven accuracy. Otherwise, I'd recommend V Human for GWM.

    If you want to use a greatsword and are starting at level 5, your character is going to be a bit unwieldy for a bit. You either start with Paladin 2/Hexblade 3, and are 3 levels behind on extra attack, though GFB and BB can shore up that weakness a bit. OR you start more paladin and are unable to use cha to attack until level 8. I'd probably go with option A, but recognize your damage is going to be weaker than a straight paladin, until you pick up paladin 5.

    For the uncommon item, Winged Boots are always broken, or Cloak of Protection if you just want better numbers.
    I'm not dead set on crit fishing, but I thought the two went hand-in-hand pretty well. I guess not. In that case V. Human is looking pretty nice. And in that case Conquest is nice as well, same vein/flavor.

    What are your thoughts on Sword and Board or a Polearm vs a Greatsword. With Sword and Board I could probably do something like Paladin 4/Warlock 1. Polearms would probably have to be Pali 2/Warlock 3. My only concern with polearms is if it'll have too many bonus actions between Hex and PAM.

  16. - Top - End - #406
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Aequilix View Post
    I'm not dead set on crit fishing, but I thought the two went hand-in-hand pretty well. I guess not. In that case V. Human is looking pretty nice. And in that case Conquest is nice as well, same vein/flavor.

    What are your thoughts on Sword and Board or a Polearm vs a Greatsword. With Sword and Board I could probably do something like Paladin 4/Warlock 1. Polearms would probably have to be Pali 2/Warlock 3. My only concern with polearms is if it'll have too many bonus actions between Hex and PAM.
    They are all fine choices. If you go GWM, you'll have a good amount of bonus action usage between hex, hexblade curse, and GWM attacks. Polearms synergize well with a conquest paladin's fear lock-down. S&B seems like it'd save you warlock levels, but without warlock 3 for improved pact weapon, you still need war caster if you want to cast shield with both hands full (which you can't take as a level 1 Paladin). If you go that route, I'd take warlock 3 for the invocation, and use a Flame Tongue longsword, making it a +1 Flame Tongue.

    I'd say pick what you like and play it. Greatsword is simple and sweet if that's what you like.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  17. - Top - End - #407
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Jan 2018

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Aequilix View Post
    I'm not dead set on crit fishing, but I thought the two went hand-in-hand pretty well. I guess not. In that case V. Human is looking pretty nice. And in that case Conquest is nice as well, same vein/flavor.

    What are your thoughts on Sword and Board or a Polearm vs a Greatsword. With Sword and Board I could probably do something like Paladin 4/Warlock 1. Polearms would probably have to be Pali 2/Warlock 3. My only concern with polearms is if it'll have too many bonus actions between Hex and PAM.
    If you dip Hexblade at all, you should look to grabbing lvl 2 at some point. Getting Agonizing Blast is well worth delaying paladin one more level, IMO. Seriously blasting things at a distance when you need is a good thing, even when you're mainly melee; and force is not a commonly resisted attack.

    I have a vhuman sorlocadin character (paladin/hexblade/divine soul). I opted for sword-and-board style, but took PAM as my inital feat. I use a spear, as it's versatile and works with both S&B and PAM; eventually I'm going to go for HB3 and pick up a glaive.

    Ultimately I'll be a Paladin (Vengeance) 6/ HB 3/ DS x. Good at melee, decent at distance, able to heal, tons of smite fuel and a good AoE (fireball!)

  18. - Top - End - #408
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Jun 2019

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    They are all fine choices. If you go GWM, you'll have a good amount of bonus action usage between hex, hexblade curse, and GWM attacks. Polearms synergize well with a conquest paladin's fear lock-down. S&B seems like it'd save you warlock levels, but without warlock 3 for improved pact weapon, you still need war caster if you want to cast shield with both hands full (which you can't take as a level 1 Paladin). If you go that route, I'd take warlock 3 for the invocation, and use a Flame Tongue longsword, making it a +1 Flame Tongue.

    I'd say pick what you like and play it. Greatsword is simple and sweet if that's what you like.
    I forsure want Paladin at least to level 6. Maybe level 7 for the aura. But is taking Warlock to level 5 first instead of Paladin a bad idea? I'm not quite sure if I want the build to be primarily warlock or paladin. But i know I want at least 6 or 7 levels in Paladin.

  19. - Top - End - #409
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Aequilix View Post
    I forsure want Paladin at least to level 6. Maybe level 7 for the aura. But is taking Warlock to level 5 first instead of Paladin a bad idea? I'm not quite sure if I want the build to be primarily warlock or paladin. But i know I want at least 6 or 7 levels in Paladin.
    Probably not terrible. You’d have to then take 6 warlock after Paladin so you could replace the extra attack with another strong invocation. I had a paladin that took 5 in warlock just so he could double smite on crits. It was strong. It probably depends on what level you realistically expect to get to.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  20. - Top - End - #410
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Im interested in a comparison of dips for a Hexblade, with a 8/14/16/14/10/16 going into level 6. They are a played fairly melee currently but 3 dip options are being considered.
    • 3 levels into fighter Battlemaster
    • 3 levels into fighter Eldritch Knight
    • 3 levels into War Wizard


    Maneuvers fit the characters past (soldier), while his current Narrative has him seeking arcane guidance from some mages. The AC boost each round from War wizard doesn't hurt as well as the 4 and 2 spell slots one (L2) of which can be recovered each short rest. Obviously this means no action surge which is the draw card of going Fighter especially for a melee focused character. That being said maybe he is changing his stance.

    What do you reckon?

  21. - Top - End - #411
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    Im interested in a comparison of dips for a Hexblade, with a 8/14/16/14/10/16 going into level 6. They are a played fairly melee currently but 3 dip options are being considered.
    • 3 levels into fighter Battlemaster
    • 3 levels into fighter Eldritch Knight
    • 3 levels into War Wizard
    You need to give thought to how MAD (multiple attribute dependent) you will need to be. Technically you can MC any way you wish. But a hexblade (or any warlock) is Cha-based, and if you MC you should at least consider MCing with another Cha-based class. That way you don't have to spread your ASI's around and can grab a juicy feat or two.

    The fighter classes will require you to focus some on Str or Dex; and the EK and wizard will require Int. Going just one level into HB will let you attack with Cha, so normally Str wouldn't be as important.

  22. - Top - End - #412
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Currently creating a backup character for my current campaign. Looking at building a vHuman Vengeance Paladin, with a couple of dips in Hexblade to be more SAD and for spell slots. Will be starting playing him at level 9, his current stats are:

    STR:13
    DEX:10
    CON:16
    INT:11
    WIS:6
    CHA:20

    Feats are: PAM, Silver Tongued and GWM. He's currently 8 paladin, 1 hexblade but open to suggestions for the split and moving forward with levels. UA is allowed but not excessively (No coffeelocking )

    The current top damage dealer in our party is our swashbuckler rogue, who is making my current character's (Tempest Cleric tank) life difficult by obliterating enemies with sneak attacks every round and drawing all their attention, so this backup character is my way of trying to match his DPR (or beat it)

    Any ideas on how best to optimize for damage?

  23. - Top - End - #413
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by HorstStonewall View Post
    Currently creating a backup character for my current campaign. Looking at building a vHuman Vengeance Paladin, with a couple of dips in Hexblade to be more SAD and for spell slots. Will be starting playing him at level 9, his current stats are:

    STR:13
    DEX:10
    CON:16
    INT:11
    WIS:6
    CHA:20

    Feats are: PAM, Silver Tongued and GWM. He's currently 8 paladin, 1 hexblade but open to suggestions for the split and moving forward with levels. UA is allowed but not excessively (No coffeelocking )

    The current top damage dealer in our party is our swashbuckler rogue, who is making my current character's (Tempest Cleric tank) life difficult by obliterating enemies with sneak attacks every round and drawing all their attention, so this backup character is my way of trying to match his DPR (or beat it)

    Any ideas on how best to optimize for damage?
    I happen to like PAM as it gets you extra-attack-lite. I'm not sure if/how it works with your Real extra attack, since you have 8 levels of paladin. But hypothetically you can be a smiting machine if you can grab some spell slots. That's one reason I MC'ed into sorcerer (that and fireball)

    Vengeance paladin may have the best DPR in the game!

  24. - Top - End - #414
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by HorstStonewall View Post
    Currently creating a backup character for my current campaign. Looking at building a vHuman Vengeance Paladin, with a couple of dips in Hexblade to be more SAD and for spell slots. Will be starting playing him at level 9, his current stats are:

    STR:13
    DEX:10
    CON:16
    INT:11
    WIS:6
    CHA:20

    Feats are: PAM, Silver Tongued and GWM. He's currently 8 paladin, 1 hexblade but open to suggestions for the split and moving forward with levels. UA is allowed but not excessively (No coffeelocking )

    The current top damage dealer in our party is our swashbuckler rogue, who is making my current character's (Tempest Cleric tank) life difficult by obliterating enemies with sneak attacks every round and drawing all their attention, so this backup character is my way of trying to match his DPR (or beat it)

    Any ideas on how best to optimize for damage?
    As published the hexblade would require 3 levels for a 2-handed weapon, so that'd be a good idea if your DM is following that.

    If you were to do that, it's not a bad idea to pick up the smite invocation (warlock 5), and double up on smites on crits. While there you can pick up the flies for more damage.

    Other than that, there's more paladin for improved divine smite, and sorcerer for quickened spells, and more slots to smite with. It kind of depends on how long your adventuring days are, and what amount of short rests your party likes to do.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  25. - Top - End - #415
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    You need to give thought to how MAD (multiple attribute dependent) you will need to be. Technically you can MC any way you wish. But a hexblade (or any warlock) is Cha-based, and if you MC you should at least consider MCing with another Cha-based class. That way you don't have to spread your ASI's around and can grab a juicy feat or two.

    The fighter classes will require you to focus some on Str or Dex; and the EK and wizard will require Int. Going just one level into HB will let you attack with Cha, so normally Str wouldn't be as important.
    Have the requirements in dex to mc to fighter and nothing in those 3 levels needs anymore given as a hexblade I use chr for fighting. Multiclassing to either war wiz (have int) or shadow sorc are also options. In fact the first 3 levels of shadow sorcerer seem thematically closely aligned with hexblade. The war wizard is narratively applicable, and the battlemaster is apt for the character as has been played thus far, and EK A bit of both worlds (is a 2 fighter/1wiz or sorc better?).
    So of my dip options what works best. Either primarily melee with some spells or as a true gish.

  26. - Top - End - #416
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    As published the hexblade would require 3 levels for a 2-handed weapon, so that'd be a good idea if your DM is following that.
    I had completely forgotten that you needed pact of the blade to use CHA for 2 handed weapons, damn

    That makes the build a lot worse damage-wise until much higher levels, because it delays level 11 for Improved Divine Smite, meaning I would have to be level 14 for the build to come online, 16 to get Eldritch Smite on top.

    Let's say hypothetically, I beg my DM for some gauntlets of ogre power, and no longer need to use CHA for attacks. Are there any other warlock patrons that might suit the build better?

  27. - Top - End - #417
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by HorstStonewall View Post
    I had completely forgotten that you needed pact of the blade to use CHA for 2 handed weapons, damn

    That makes the build a lot worse damage-wise until much higher levels, because it delays level 11 for Improved Divine Smite, meaning I would have to be level 14 for the build to come online, 16 to get Eldritch Smite on top.

    Let's say hypothetically, I beg my DM for some gauntlets of ogre power, and no longer need to use CHA for attacks. Are there any other warlock patrons that might suit the build better?
    If you want to gish, I don't think there's another good option. I'm not a big fan of familiars, so I'd go with tome otherwise. More cantrips are always good, even if you can't use as smite fuel.

  28. - Top - End - #418
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    Im interested in a comparison of dips for a Hexblade, with a 8/14/16/14/10/16 going into level 6. They are a played fairly melee currently but 3 dip options are being considered.
    • 3 levels into fighter Battlemaster
    • 3 levels into fighter Eldritch Knight
    • 3 levels into War Wizard


    Maneuvers fit the characters past (soldier), while his current Narrative has him seeking arcane guidance from some mages. The AC boost each round from War wizard doesn't hurt as well as the 4 and 2 spell slots one (L2) of which can be recovered each short rest. Obviously this means no action surge which is the draw card of going Fighter especially for a melee focused character. That being said maybe he is changing his stance.

    What do you reckon?
    Sorry, totally missed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    Have the requirements in dex to mc to fighter and nothing in those 3 levels needs anymore given as a hexblade I use chr for fighting. Multiclassing to either war wiz (have int) or shadow sorc are also options. In fact the first 3 levels of shadow sorcerer seem thematically closely aligned with hexblade. The war wizard is narratively applicable, and the battlemaster is apt for the character as has been played thus far, and EK A bit of both worlds (is a 2 fighter/1wiz or sorc better?).
    So of my dip options what works best. Either primarily melee with some spells or as a true gish.
    The reason you might want to favor cha based classes, is not just for the requirements, but so that your abilities scale with just one stat. Wizard levels come with a sizable drawback, because you are limiting those spells to ones that don't scale with int, especially late game. Sorcerer on the other hand opens up a similar spell list that scales well. War wizard is relatively weak, compared to just using the shield spell, which is fairly easy to use often once you have ~3+ sorcerer levels. You can just dump your low level sorcerer spells in shield as needed.

    You'd have to decide on how you want the build to play. Sorcerer levels make you an excellent gish. Fighter levels would help combat slightly, and action surge is always strong. Though, the problem with fighter levels, is you should have taken first level in fighter. EK would be the stronger defensive option (again shield spell), while BM moves are better for damage. Riposte is an extra attack, and if your using GWM/SS precision is the way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by HorstStonewall View Post
    I had completely forgotten that you needed pact of the blade to use CHA for 2 handed weapons, damn

    That makes the build a lot worse damage-wise until much higher levels, because it delays level 11 for Improved Divine Smite, meaning I would have to be level 14 for the build to come online, 16 to get Eldritch Smite on top.

    Let's say hypothetically, I beg my DM for some gauntlets of ogre power, and no longer need to use CHA for attacks. Are there any other warlock patrons that might suit the build better?
    Really not much reason to go warlock for 1 level unless its hexblade 1 for S&B style. It's not terrible, but not really helping when delaying that IDS. They all give the spell slot for 1 smite a short rest.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  29. - Top - End - #419
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Hey guys I had a question about a character I was thinking of. I was wanting to make full thematic use of the Mark of Storm Half-Elf from Eberron and decided to make a pirate captain that was a Swashbuckler/Storm Sorcerer. I'm just kinda curious about the progression I should go with it because I'm wanting to be good in melee but also be able to use all his storm spells as well. I was also wondering if Storm Sorcerer is better than Tempest Cleric. The character will be religious towards a storm god either way. I feel I should mention that my level 20 party is restarting so we're going to 20 again and my stats are 9, 14, 12, 11, 13, 13.

  30. - Top - End - #420
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Duecej2 View Post
    Hey guys I had a question about a character I was thinking of. I was wanting to make full thematic use of the Mark of Storm Half-Elf from Eberron and decided to make a pirate captain that was a Swashbuckler/Storm Sorcerer. I'm just kinda curious about the progression I should go with it because I'm wanting to be good in melee but also be able to use all his storm spells as well. I was also wondering if Storm Sorcerer is better than Tempest Cleric. The character will be religious towards a storm god either way. I feel I should mention that my level 20 party is restarting so we're going to 20 again and my stats are 9, 14, 12, 11, 13, 13.
    Are those stats before racial boosts?

    Well with that spread, I'd probably just go for both. Storm Sorcerer has better spells (Booming Blade, Shield, Haste, Lightning Bolt), but the Tempest Cleric gives you armor & shield proficiency as well as that sweet channel divinity. I'd recommend medium armor and a shield for now.

    I'd aim for 5 levels in rogue, at least 2 in Tempest Cleric or the channel divinity and split the rest between storm sorcerer and rogue. Booming Blade with 5 levels in rogue is plenty enough to keep you martially relevant the entire game.

    If you're starting at level 1, I'd start Storm Sorc (for con save proficiency), take Tempest for proficencies, then rogue. That way you're a little wonky, but already have the concept working by level 3. By level 5, you'd be sorcerer 1/cleric 1/rogue 3. That's 1d8 rapier, 2d6 SA, 1d8 BB, and a potential 2d8 BB if the target moves.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

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