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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    So, short version:
    If you multiclass, do it into a Cha-based spellcasting class.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    So, short version:
    If you multiclass, do it into a Cha-based spellcasting class.
    They certainly do have both the attribute synergy as well as abilities which complement each other. That said, I'm still waiting for someone to make a comprehensive palabard guide to complement the sorcadin and pallock material out there.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    While druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and shields, they don't break apart if they do. They know how to wear metal armor and shields. Whether they do is only a matter of choice.
    I read that sage advice as well, and didn't interpret it the same.

    He said, "If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM."

    In my interpretation that puts it squarely in the territory of DM permitted only, but not RAW. If you were allowed RAW, you wouldn't need to talk to your DM. You would just put on half plate like the barbarian in the party, no conversation needed. RAW it appears you need special permission. If you were to try and wear metal armor in AL on your druid you would definitely run into issues.

    It's like Blade Singer. It says its elves only, but you can talk to your DM and he is fully capable of lifting this restriction.

    I can mention that IF your DM lifts the restrictions, then it greatly improves the rating.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    So, short version:
    If you multiclass, do it into a Cha-based spellcasting class.
    Hey, that's not all it says! It also says 'maybe think about dipping fighter, cleric, or rogue'

    Great guide in all seriousness
    Last edited by Naanomi; 2016-10-14 at 08:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I read that sage advice as well, and didn't interpret it the same.

    He said, "If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM."

    In my interpretation that puts it squarely in the territory of DM permitted only, but not RAW. If you were allowed RAW, you wouldn't need to talk to your DM. You would just put on half plate like the barbarian in the party, no conversation needed. RAW it appears you need special permission. If you were to try and wear metal armor in AL on your druid you would definitely run into issues.
    When making your interpretation, note that will not ≠ can not. There's a difference. It is a matter of individual choice. The only issues it would bring would be along the lines that other druids would scoff at you, and likely wouldn't welcome you as one of them. Donning metal armor isn't as bad as teaching Druidic to a non-druid, however, so you wouldn't necessarily be lynched. It's basically just showing the finger at traditions.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-10-14 at 02:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    We've all heard the arguments. That's not the point. The Sage said, "talk to your DM." That's not clearly coming down one way or the other on RAW, but instead encouraging houseruling. I personally favor this (I do not believe in the value of RAW), but I know I'm in the minority.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    First. Very impressive. Nice work.

    Second.

    What are you thoughts on A Monk /Ranger (2 or 4)/Fighter (1).

    In other words, I am totally look forword to you doing a three class breakdown.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitth'raw'nuruo View Post
    What are you thoughts on A Monk /Ranger (2 or 4)/Fighter (1). In other words, I am totally look forword to you doing a three class breakdown.
    Uh, so, you're looking forward to him creating a guide with 1,728 sections? Good luck with convincing him about that.

    I think it'll be a better idea to ask him to create a section about dipping levels in the 12 classes. But whether he really will create that is totally up to him.
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    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I see that all the Gold are for combinations of CHA based spell casters, and that combo's of my favorite classes (Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue) rate Sky blue at best.
    Which combo of Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue is most likely to survive a campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    How much damage does Exploding do? Maybe my Druid can survive it, long rest in the armor, and go adventuring the next day in top shape...
    My thoughts went more along the lines of, can the rest of the party remotely place metal armor on the Druid?
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    Uh, so, you're looking forward to him creating a guide with 1,728 sections? Good luck with convincing him about that.

    I think it'll be a better idea to ask him to create a section about dipping levels in the 12 classes. But whether he really will create that is totally up to him.
    Yes. I Am. He has created an outstanding guide, & made it clear, both with his reservation of four threads, and his subsequent posts he intents not to limit his continued labors to refinement & improvement, but expand his opus yet more.

    His task is daunting, yet none should belittle him with their own benighted visions.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post



    I'd like to include 3 classes, actually mentioned one or two during the guide, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. If I add colored breakpoints, it might demonstrate that many classes offer great benefits within the first 4 levels.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    We had a 'dipping' guide here but it was from pretty early in 5e; but we should probably redo it (as most 3+class multiclasses are actually just about dipping)

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitth'raw'nuruo View Post
    His task is daunting, yet none should belittle him with their own benighted visions.
    Belittling - the bane of progress.
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    When making your interpretation, note that will not ≠ can not. There's a difference. It is a matter of individual choice. The only issues it would bring would be along the lines that other druids would scoff at you, and likely wouldn't welcome you as one of them. Donning metal armor isn't as bad as teaching Druidic to a non-druid, however, so you wouldn't necessarily be lynched. It's basically just showing the finger at traditions.
    I am afraid that I have to make an assumption one way or the other on how a DM will rule it, as it greatly affects multiclassing. I will edit the Druid post to talk about this.

    Regardless, Druid dips are going to be regularly outclasses by cleric dips for the vast majority of builds. Domain powers just add so much more.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Excellent guide.

    Somewhere I will point my players to in the future.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I will second this.

    At first glance, everything looks great and all the breakpoints make sense.

    Well done!
    Again I second this, I am also happy as you have confirmed a few thoughs I have had for my Monk character when many people told me not to multiclass (with this character being my first attempt)! So thank you.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Why isn't this stickied somewhere? This is perfect for me, with my weird obsession with gish type characters...

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    pretty sure multi classing into paladin only gives access to medium armour, not heavy, could be wrong, don't have my source book with me, but i would be checking that.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    pretty sure multi classing into paladin only gives access to medium armour, not heavy, could be wrong, don't have my source book with me, but i would be checking that.
    True. If you multiclass with a fighter or paladin from a class that doesn't have heavy armor proficiency, you only get up to medium armor proficiency.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-12-31 at 01:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    As a mostly PF player and multiclassing fan who occasionally plays 5e and doesn't want to reinvent the wheel every game, I also loved this and hope it gets stickied.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    True. If you multiclass with a fighter or paladin from a class that doesn't have heavy armor proficiency, you only get up to medium armor proficiency.
    I believe one level of cleric will give you heavy armor prof. with some of the domains.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by BurgTurdler View Post
    I believe one level of cleric will give you heavy armor prof. with some of the domains.
    I believe I was only talking about fighters and paladins ;)
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    PetenutButter's Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
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    x Barbarian Bard Cleric Druid Fighter Monk Paladin Ranger Rogue Sorcerer Warlock Wizard
    Barbarian x Barb/Bard Barb/Cleric Barb/Druid Barb/Fighter Barb/Monk Barb/Paladin Barb/Ranger Barb/Rogue Barb/Sorc Barb/Warlock Barb/Wizard
    Bard Bard/Barb x Bard/Cleric Bard/Druid Bard/Fighter Bard/Monk Bard/Paladin Bard/Ranger Bard/Rogue Bard/Sorc Bard/Warlock Bard/Wizard
    Cleric Cleric/Barb Cleric/Bard x Cleric/Druid Cleric/Fighter Cleric/Monk Cleric/Paladin Cleric/Ranger Cleric/Rogue Cleric/Sorc Cleric/Warlock Cleric/Wizard
    Druid Druid/Barb Druid/Bard Druid/Cleric x Druid/Fighter Druid/Monk Druid/Paladin Druid/Ranger Druid/Rogue Druid/Sorc Druid/Warlock Druid/Wizard
    Fighter Fighter/Barb Fighter/Bard Fighter/Cleric Fighter/Druid x Fighter/Monk Fighter/Paladin Fighter/Ranger Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Sorc Fighter/Warlock Fighter/Wizard
    Monk Monk/Barb Monk/Bard Monk/Cleric Monk/Druid Monk/Fighter x Monk/Paladin Monk/Ranger Monk/Rogue Monk/Sorc Monk/Warlock Monk/Wizard
    Paladin Paladin/Barb Paladin/Bard Paladin/Cleric Paladin/Druid Paladin/Fighter Paladin/Monk x Paladin/Ranger Paladin/Rogue Paladin/Sorc Paladin/Warlock Paladin/Wizard
    Ranger Ranger/Barb Ranger/Bard Ranger/Cleric Ranger/Druid Ranger/Fighter Ranger/Monk Ranger/Paladin x Ranger/Rogue Ranger/Sorc Ranger/Warlock Ranger/Wizard
    Rogue Rogue/Barb Rogue/Bard Rogue/Cleric Rogue/Druid Rogue/Fighter Rogue/Monk Rogue/Paladin Rogue/Ranger x Rogue/Sorc Rogue/Warlock Rogue/Wizard
    Sorcerer Sorc/Barb Sorc/Bard Sorc/Cleric Sorc/Druid Sorc/Fighter Sorc/Monk Sorc/Paladin Sorc/Ranger Sorc/Rogue x Sorc/Warlock Sorc/Wizard
    Warlock Warlock/Barb Warlock/Bard Warlock/Cleric Warlock/Druid Warlock/Fighter Warlock/Monk Warlock/Paladin Warlock/Ranger Warlock/Rogue Warlock/Sorc x Warlock/Wizard
    Wizard Wizard/Barb Wizard/Bard Wizard/Cleric Wizard/Druid Wizard/Fighter Wizard/Monk Wizard/Paladin Wizard/Ranger Wizard/Rogue Wizard/Sorc Wizard/Warlock x

    Spoiler: Multiclass Colors
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    Gold You really can't go wrong here. These two just compliment each other so well.
    Sky blue There are a lot of good class combinations here that can make for some solid builds.
    Blue There is some clear synergy here, but not as much as Gold or Sky Blue. May take some optimization to ensure the multiclass adds to the build.
    Black This is decent, but doesn't really make the class better at its core strengths or may be MAD
    Purple You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD.
    Red The lack of synergy here is just offensive. It's MAD. I'd avoid it altogether.
    Small edit suggestion......Swap these two spoilers around, it's nothing major, just makes it a little easier to read.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    This is a wonderful guide and I wanted to refresh the world's attention to it!!

    Then, I really hope you will find time to update this thread to take into account all the new options coming with UAs (which may slightly change some interactions between some classes).
    A possible addition (not as overwhelming as studying the 3 classes breakdown) could be to point out some race/class interactions which are particularly strong, not simply because of a +2 where you need it, but for other abilities (A Sharpshooter Kobold? A Protector Aasimar Druid?).

    Furthermore... I see little love for the Druid/Paladin, but I feel like smiting in Wildshape, with tons of total HPs, some beasts giving up to 3 Attacks (Giant Scorpion), other beasts so unlikely to represent a threat (imagine a cat smiting the **** ot of someone ) and full caster progression is a huuuuuge thing.
    Bonus points for a Paladin(OathofConquest(UA))3/MoonDruidX, giving access to Armor of Agathys...
    Moreover there is nothing to be MAD at regarding this build, you need Char 13, Str 13 and Wis 13. You can dump Int and accept a low Con and Dex, so you can actually boost that Wis up to 15 if you really want! No need for the ASIs too... I would go for variant Human and only rely on Feats, Sentinel, Warcaster and Lucky for example, we have plenty of space!!
    At level 12 a Paladin2/Druid10 is capable of becoming an Earth Elemental, a huge tank now implemented with a ton of slots to smite and to cure itself; I see this as going more towards the SkyBlue (leave the gold for the Sorcadin) than the Black!!

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    They certainly do have both the attribute synergy as well as abilities which complement each other. That said, I'm still waiting for someone to make a comprehensive palabard guide to complement the sorcadin and pallock material out there.
    Is there a good paladin/warlock guide you'd recommend? Gastronomie's Sorcadin guide is amazing, but I haven't seen anything even close to that on the pal/lock side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Is there a good paladin/warlock guide you'd recommend? Gastronomie's Sorcadin guide is amazing, but I haven't seen anything even close to that on the pal/lock side.
    How difficult would it be, though?

    I can see three different ways to build one:

    1) Paladin 17-18/Warlock 2-3
    Get the 2nd level spell slots for quaranteed smites 2/short rest, and all paladin spell levels, along with most paladin class features. Really tough build.

    2) Paladin 11/Warlock 9
    Up to 3rd level Paladin spells, and 5th level Warlock spells and spell slots 2/short rest.
    Improved Divine Smite quarantees quite solid damage with weapons and 5th level spell slots more often is quite nice as well.

    3) Paladin 2-3/Warlock 17-18
    Pretty much the opposite of the first, focusing more on the spellcasting, with the addition to getting up to 9th level Mystic Arcanum.

    Seriously, do you even need a guide for that?
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-01-24 at 12:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    How difficult would it be, though?

    I can see three different ways to build one:

    1) Paladin 17-18/Warlock 2-3
    Get the 2nd level spell slots for quaranteed smites 2/short rest, and all paladin spell levels, along with most paladin class features. Really tough build.

    2) Paladin 11/Warlock 9
    Up to 3rd level Paladin spells, and 5th level Warlock spells and spell slots 2/short rest.
    Improved Divine Smite quarantees quite solid damage with weapons and 5th level spell slots more often is quite nice as well.

    3) Paladin 2-3/Warlock 17-18
    Pretty much the opposite of the first, focusing more on the spellcasting, with the addition to getting up to 9th level Mystic Arcanum.

    Seriously, do you even need a guide for that?
    You could say the exact same thing for sorcadin. What about feats? Level progression? Playstyle/strategy? Invocation, pact and oath choices? Yes, you could figure all that out of course. But you could for sorcadin as well.

    Basically, if people find paladin guides and warlock guides useful, a pal/lock guide will be just as useful if not more, given the complexity of the possible interactions between the two classes.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Warlock 3 Undying Light for Pact of the tome: Shillelagh and Radiant Soul, Oathbreaker 7 for Char to damage, Dueling fighting style, and Divine Favour; take Polearm master, grab a quarterstaff and run around with 3 attacks a turn dealing 3xChar(Shillelagh, Oathbreaker'sAura, RadiantSoul+DivineFavour) +2 (Fighting style) magical damage each... And we didn't even get to dice and smites!!

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashuan21 View Post
    Warlock 3 Undying Light for Pact of the tome: Shillelagh and Radiant Soul, Oathbreaker 7 for Char to damage, Dueling fighting style, and Divine Favour; take Polearm master, grab a quarterstaff and run around with 3 attacks a turn dealing 3xChar(Shillelagh, Oathbreaker'sAura, RadiantSoul+DivineFavour) +2 (Fighting style) magical damage each... And we didn't even get to dice and smites!!
    And this, here, is a perfect example why the Undying Light Patron is considered over powered and broken, and why most people consider all other Unearthed Arcana material too strong or too fiddly to allow them in their games.

    Plus there is the slight factor as to why in the world would any sensible DM allow such a build anyway.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-01-24 at 03:36 PM.
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
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    the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anon von Zilch View Post
    Words actually mean things, people!

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    And this, here, is a perfect example why the Undying Light Patron is considered over powered and broken, and why most people consider all other Unearthed Arcana material too strong or too fiddly to allow them in their games.

    Plus there is the slight factor as to why in the world would any sensible DM allow such a build anyway.
    I guess you are in the wrong thread then xD... anyway I agree about the silliness of Undying Light, and the writers were probably drunk when they wrote it.

    If we remove Undying Light and substitute for Fiend we have a weaker build but a thematically interesting one!
    Oathbreaker + Fiend clearly sold its soul to a Devil, and gained uber power from this.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    As a big fan of multi-classing, I'm really loving the work you put into this thread. Thanks a lot, Pete!

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