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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Little addition to the Rogue/Barbarian (and possibly vice versa):
    Two levels of barbarian grant "reckless attack", giving you advantage on every melee attack you do this round (limited on str attacks i think, but that's what you were describing anyway). Advantage can trigger your sneak attack, and (as opposed to your shield master bash build) you can still use your bonus action to either disengage or dash away (the latter is better if not limited to swashbucklers).

    This is especially awesome if you go barbarian 5 or add 5/11 levels in fighter (which works off of str or dex, both of which you already have at this point) to get more attacks per round, [all of which can add the sneak attack bonus] (<- sneak attack only works once per turn, so this last part is completely wrong and will only stay here to showcase my failure.)
    The flipside is that any attack you suffer from until your next turn has advantage, which is dangerous for a rogue.
    Last edited by Quoxis; 2017-01-25 at 07:25 AM. Reason: Corrected the mistake about multiple sneak attacks per round
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Quoxis View Post
    Little addition to the Rogue/Barbarian (and possibly vice versa):
    Two levels of barbarian grant "reckless attack", giving you advantage on every melee attack you do this round (limited on str attacks i think, but that's what you were describing anyway). Advantage can trigger your sneak attack, and (as opposed to your shield master bash build) you can still use your bonus action to either disengage or dash away (the latter is better if not limited to swashbucklers).
    This is especially awesome if you go barbarian 5 or add 5/11 levels in fighter (which works off of str or dex, both of which you already have at this point) to get more attacks per round, all of which can add the sneak attack bonus.
    The flipside is that any attack you suffer from until your next turn has advantage, which is dangerous for a rogue.
    Wrong. You can deal sneak attack damage only once per turn.
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    pretty sure multi classing into paladin only gives access to medium armour, not heavy, could be wrong, don't have my source book with me, but i would be checking that.
    The OP is just phrased incorrectly. "If you start as a paladin, then MC into [whatever other class], you get heavy armor proficiency" would be correct, and in most cases it's already explained like that.
    "Can i touch myself before talking to that guy?"
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    "I mean can i cast a touch spell on myself..."
    "It's both possible, but one would probably lead to a bad outcome."

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Wrong. You can deal sneak attack damage only once per turn.
    Ouch. Should've read into it, completely forgot that little detail, most likely because pure rogues get only 1 attack anyway.
    Will edit this immediately (though the initial idea stays true).
    Thanks for pointing it out!
    "Can i touch myself before talking to that guy?"
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    "I mean can i cast a touch spell on myself..."
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Quoxis View Post
    Ouch. Should've read into it, completely forgot that little detail, most likely because pure rogues get only 1 attack anyway.
    Will edit this immediately (though the initial idea stays true).
    Thanks for pointing it out!
    No problem. Wouldn't want to lead new players seeking for a multiclassing guide into believing incorrect facts. Or should I say "alternative facts", which seems to be a thing these days.

    More Attacks with advantage is still great thing to have. Your suggestion however isn't new or anything. I haven't read the OP in a while, but I'm actually surprised if this wasn't in there yet.
    A barbarian / swashbuckler would benefit the most of this. With the "free disengage" and Cunning Action to Dash, coupled with uncanny dodge, such a character can still avoid serious amounts of damage, even with having attacks against him be at advantage. Alternatively, add in a few levels of monk if you can afford it stat-wise, and you can use Ki (and a bonus action) to negate that advantage against you!
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-01-25 at 08:06 AM.
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
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    the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anon von Zilch View Post
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    No problem. Wouldn't want to lead new players seeking for a multiclassing guide into believing incorrect facts. Or should I say "alternative facts", which seems to be a thing these days.

    More Attacks with advantage is still great thing to have. Your suggestion however isn't new or anything. I haven't read the OP in a while, but I'm actually surprised if this wasn't in there yet.
    A barbarian / swashbuckler would benefit the most of this. With the "free disengage" and Cunning Action to Dash, coupled with uncanny dodge, such a character can still avoid serious amounts of damage, even with having attacks against him be at advantage. Alternatively, add in a few levels of monk if you can afford it stat-wise, and you can use Ki (and a bonus action) to negate that advantage against you!
    Especially because this old piece of news wasn't mentioned i just had to intervene :D
    OP doesn't state the connection between reckless and sneak attack, at least it didn't when i read it hours ago, just a shield bash barb/rogue.
    The monk idea is great, but probably too MAD for this guide, as you need 13 points in 3 AS's and the fact that there are many overlaps between barbarian and monk.
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    "I mean can i cast a touch spell on myself..."
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    This is hugely useful, thank you OP.

    Can I get an explanation of SAD and MAD please. I can kinda guess, but why risk it? :D


    I'm not all that impressed by the fanlove for L20 build combos. I'm not saying they don't have value, but essentially it is just like any other L20 capstone. Good to know, and fun to theorycraft, but such builds will be unseen for 95+% of players.

    The real knowledge value is at increments before that. Knowing when to dip (and when to dip back), what ASIs or Feats to take and when etc. (Obviously that would be another huge project).

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Single Ability Dependence and Multiple Ability Dependence, respectively.

    Also, I'd like to point out that Fire Draconic Sorcerer/Paladin combining GFB and Searing Smite has some amazing potential. Weapon+Str/Dex+Xd8+(ChaŚ2)+1d6 damage, for the cost of a single 1st-level spell slot, is too amazing to pass up.
    Last edited by Sicarius Victis; 2017-02-01 at 12:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Why are the Ranger colours missing?
    Yes, it's impossible. Now shut up and do the impossible.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    One of the mentioned benefits of a Sorc/Warlock or Warlock/Sorc seems to be quickening Eldritch Blast to fire twice the typical number of them at the cost of 2 SP. However since we're multi-classing, am I correct that the number of EB rays we'll get is based on the Warlock's level rather than the total character level?

    If so, since we'll need the lionshare of our levels to be Sorc so we have enough SP to make this combo worthwhile, I feel like there's not really an edge here since eventually a single classed Warlock will have up to 4 EB rays per casting. Right around the time we have the levels to even pull off this trick a vanilla Warlock will be casting 2 blasts with a single EB casting without the need to use SPs.

    What am I missing here?
    Last edited by Huntsman; 2017-04-09 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
    One of the mentioned benefits of a Sorc/Warlock or Warlock/Sorc seems to be quickening Eldritch Blast to fire twice the typical number of them at the cost of 2 SP. However since we're multi-classing, am I correct that the number of EB rays we'll get is based on the Warlock's level rather than the total character level?

    If so, since we'll need the lionshare of our levels to be Sorc so we have enough SP to make this combo worthwhile, I feel like there's not really an edge here since eventually a single classed Warlock will have up to 4 EB rays per casting. Right around the time we have the levels to even pull off this trick a vanilla Warlock will be casting 2 blasts with a single EB casting without the need to use SPs.

    What am I missing here?
    cantrips scale with character level, not class level. 8d10+40 damage, every turn. totally not overpowered at all in any way. in other news, wild shape isn't broken.
    Last edited by Sans.; 2017-04-10 at 03:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    How difficult would it be, though?

    I can see three different ways to build one:

    1) Paladin 17-18/Warlock 2-3
    Get the 2nd level spell slots for quaranteed smites 2/short rest, and all paladin spell levels, along with most paladin class features. Really tough build.

    2) Paladin 11/Warlock 9
    Up to 3rd level Paladin spells, and 5th level Warlock spells and spell slots 2/short rest.
    Improved Divine Smite quarantees quite solid damage with weapons and 5th level spell slots more often is quite nice as well.

    3) Paladin 2-3/Warlock 17-18
    Pretty much the opposite of the first, focusing more on the spellcasting, with the addition to getting up to 9th level Mystic Arcanum.

    Seriously, do you even need a guide for that?
    1) I say the main benefit is Eldritch Blast seeing as noted above it scales with character level. The Paladin now has a spam Mable ranged option to fire off to hit runners or chargers while they wait for them to come into melee range. Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast being top notch options. Maybe Devil's Sight if you really need Dark Vision. But your a Paladin abusing Darkness is really going to screw your team as you will be in melee range and your teammates not being able to see anything wont make them happy. But I guess you can put it on a rock and toss it at the spellcasters.

    2)I say this works out pretty similar to the Sorcadin version. Less Spellcasting Versatility but plenty of high grade slots and class features to enjoy.

    3) I say pointless. Because Warlocks now get Pact Weapon Summons that can Eldritich Smite and I cant imagine you dipping paladin If you just want play blaster Warlock. Double smiting will quickly obliterate all your spell slots. Unless you really want the Channel Divinity. You be better off going down to Rogue for Cunning Action if 2 or if 3 starting with Fighter and going 3 into that or 1 into that for the Con Save, Armor and Weapon Proficiency, Fighting Style and 2 into Rogue for the aforementioned cunning action.

    Which reminds me this debate can be reopened as noted above Eldritich Smite changes the equation.

    On if a Sorcadin makes a better charisma Gish then the Sorlock. Key Comparisons would be
    Sorcerer 17, Paladin 3
    Sorcerer 17, Warlock 3
    Sorcerer 14, Paladin 6
    Sorcerer 14, Warlock 6

    I suppose you can make the case for 5 but seems awkward if you ask me. Or 7 but that is more Paladin biased. This is accounting for the FS update. Since it lost Extra Attack. Sorcadin still holds the 18/2 advantage since Warlock cant smite until lvl 3.

    Our old guide master was a big fan of the 14/6 split. I liked it as well but I am real sucker for Extra Attack and Find Steed (love that spell)

    Anyway bears some thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    3) I say pointless. Because Warlocks now get Pact Weapon Summons that can Eldritich Smite and I cant imagine you dipping paladin If you just want play blaster Warlock. Double smiting will quickly obliterate all your spell slots. Unless you really want the Channel Divinity. You be better off going down to Rogue for Cunning Action if 2 or if 3 starting with Fighter and going 3 into that or 1 into that for the Con Save, Armor and Weapon Proficiency, Fighting Style and 2 into Rogue for the aforementioned cunning action.
    I agree, 3) is really not worth it. IIRC, I didn't put more thought behind that post than maybe 5 minutes. Key point being that I didn't (still don't) see the point of making exhaustive build guides. I prefer learning by doing. If you get everything chewed ready for you on a platter, how will you learn to do it yourself? Or rather, why bother? My perspective is that it's better for the whole table that you learn the mechanics yourself than to just trust what others say, these online guides can be somewhat "deceptive". For example, some people still follow to the letter the Eldritch Knight Guide posted on the WotC boards when PHB was fresh from the oven, while it's largely observed as being misleading in its suggestions.

    The bottomline being, I guess, is that not everything in the internet is 100℅ true, and most guides and their ratings are biased on personal opinions of their creators.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-04-10 at 02:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I feel M/Wl deserves to be black, at least. On paper, M/Wl is already a decent multiclass. Both are classes that recover resources on short rests, and Hex is just Hunter's Mark with a better rider. Just be clear, I'm not advocating the Shadow Monk/Warlock Devil's Sight+Darkness+Shadow Step combo. I feel that's a lot of effort for very little pay-off, and is cooler than it is optimized. However, a few levels of Warlock still has a lot of goodies for a Monk. Hex, invocations of your choice, and the utility of any of the Pacts/cantrips at the cost of slightly slower Monk progression.

    There is just one real issue: MAD. Still, giving up a bit of Con to bump Cha up to 13 isn't that bad, even if it's inferior to M/Ranger (The rider on Hex is good, but not that good). Something worth mentioning is that some DMs decide to forgo ability requirements for multiclass. I've considered this myself, primarily because it's a huge kick in the shins for Dex Paladins, while Fighter gets away with a ridiculous amount (Really, your 8 Strength Wizard is buying full plate?). Should your DM make this decision, M/Wl becomes pretty good.

    Now, the UA Hexblade pact offers something beautiful: Your proficiency in damage on every hit against a target of your choice. This is Hex/Hunter's Mark, but it still scales with your Monk levels. It kicks in at level 1 or 2 iirc. That's an amazing damage bump for a Monk. At low levels, it's on par with Hex/Mark's average values, and only gets better from there. Mind you, should it get printed it might just change, but I feel it's worth keeping an eye on, given how popular the Hexblade concept is (making it likely it'll hit print).

    Oh and you get Shield, on Warlock spell slots. That'll more than make up for lost hit points.
    Last edited by DeathEatsCurry; 2017-04-12 at 01:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Well Monk/Warlock also gives the Monk a spammable ranged option which you don't get unless your a Sun Soul. It is MAD of course but if you roll for stats and hit the lotto go for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Well Monk/Warlock also gives the Monk a spammable ranged option which you don't get unless your a Sun Soul. It is MAD of course but if you roll for stats and hit the lotto go for it.
    Or also could be combined with the Mage Armor invocation, so you can drop WIS (Leave it at 13), so you can max DEX and CHA, also the Mage Armor does not count as armor, so you can still use all your Monk abilities. (To deal with the MAD part)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    Or also could be combined with the Mage Armor invocation, so you can drop WIS (Leave it at 13), so you can max DEX and CHA, also the Mage Armor does not count as armor, so you can still use all your Monk abilities. (To deal with the MAD part)
    I'd say this is viable, far from ideal though. Are there any Smite weapons that are also Monk weapons? That would be amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmitchell2 View Post
    I'd say this is viable, far from ideal though. Are there any Smite weapons that are also Monk weapons? That would be amazing.
    You got short sword. Although I think many could convince their DM to let them be Iron Fist.

    But its quality depends on the split.

    And what level will you start/end your campaign at...I loathe to deviate too much for Mon their 18th level ability is absurd.
    Last edited by skaddix; 2017-04-23 at 06:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashuan21 View Post
    This is a wonderful guide and I wanted to refresh the world's attention to it!!

    Then, I really hope you will find time to update this thread to take into account all the new options coming with UAs (which may slightly change some interactions between some classes).
    A possible addition (not as overwhelming as studying the 3 classes breakdown) could be to point out some race/class interactions which are particularly strong, not simply because of a +2 where you need it, but for other abilities (A Sharpshooter Kobold? A Protector Aasimar Druid?).

    Furthermore... I see little love for the Druid/Paladin, but I feel like smiting in Wildshape, with tons of total HPs, some beasts giving up to 3 Attacks (Giant Scorpion), other beasts so unlikely to represent a threat (imagine a cat smiting the **** ot of someone ) and full caster progression is a huuuuuge thing.
    Bonus points for a Paladin(OathofConquest(UA))3/MoonDruidX, giving access to Armor of Agathys...
    Moreover there is nothing to be MAD at regarding this build, you need Char 13, Str 13 and Wis 13. You can dump Int and accept a low Con and Dex, so you can actually boost that Wis up to 15 if you really want! No need for the ASIs too... I would go for variant Human and only rely on Feats, Sentinel, Warcaster and Lucky for example, we have plenty of space!!
    At level 12 a Paladin2/Druid10 is capable of becoming an Earth Elemental, a huge tank now implemented with a ton of slots to smite and to cure itself; I see this as going more towards the SkyBlue (leave the gold for the Sorcadin) than the Black!!
    Thank you.

    I stand by my not using UA content in this guide as it is very unbalanced and specifically says it is NOT balanced for multiclassing. I regularly laud it on these forums and happily break whatever content is released within the week.

    I do believe I mention that I am not that familiar with druids as a whole, but I'd be willing to reconsider druid/paladin. As an avid paladin fan, I definitely want it to be good, but is the delayed progression of wild shape worth it? Can anyone else comment on this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DeathEatsCurry View Post
    I feel M/Wl deserves to be black, at least. On paper, M/Wl is already a decent multiclass. Both are classes that recover resources on short rests, and Hex is just Hunter's Mark with a better rider. Just be clear, I'm not advocating the Shadow Monk/Warlock Devil's Sight+Darkness+Shadow Step combo. I feel that's a lot of effort for very little pay-off, and is cooler than it is optimized. However, a few levels of Warlock still has a lot of goodies for a Monk. Hex, invocations of your choice, and the utility of any of the Pacts/cantrips at the cost of slightly slower Monk progression.

    There is just one real issue: MAD. Still, giving up a bit of Con to bump Cha up to 13 isn't that bad, even if it's inferior to M/Ranger (The rider on Hex is good, but not that good). Something worth mentioning is that some DMs decide to forgo ability requirements for multiclass. I've considered this myself, primarily because it's a huge kick in the shins for Dex Paladins, while Fighter gets away with a ridiculous amount (Really, your 8 Strength Wizard is buying full plate?). Should your DM make this decision, M/Wl becomes pretty good.

    Now, the UA Hexblade pact offers something beautiful: Your proficiency in damage on every hit against a target of your choice. This is Hex/Hunter's Mark, but it still scales with your Monk levels. It kicks in at level 1 or 2 iirc. That's an amazing damage bump for a Monk. At low levels, it's on par with Hex/Mark's average values, and only gets better from there. Mind you, should it get printed it might just change, but I feel it's worth keeping an eye on, given how popular the Hexblade concept is (making it likely it'll hit print).

    Oh and you get Shield, on Warlock spell slots. That'll more than make up for lost hit points.
    As I mentioned above, I do not consider UA content for this guide as it is downright broken. Reducing Con on a melee character which already starts with a d8 hit die seems like suicide from an optimization standpoint. Overall the MC isn't horrible, but suffers from being weaker than most other options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quoxis View Post
    Little addition to the Rogue/Barbarian (and possibly vice versa):
    Two levels of barbarian grant "reckless attack", giving you advantage on every melee attack you do this round (limited on str attacks i think, but that's what you were describing anyway). Advantage can trigger your sneak attack, and (as opposed to your shield master bash build) you can still use your bonus action to either disengage or dash away (the latter is better if not limited to swashbucklers).

    This is especially awesome if you go barbarian 5 or add 5/11 levels in fighter (which works off of str or dex, both of which you already have at this point) to get more attacks per round, [all of which can add the sneak attack bonus] (<- sneak attack only works once per turn, so this last part is completely wrong and will only stay here to showcase my failure.)
    The flipside is that any attack you suffer from until your next turn has advantage, which is dangerous for a rogue.
    I've added a line or two regarding the strength of reckless attack in conjunction to sneak attack. Honestly, not sure why it wasn't there to start with. Thanks for your input.


    Thanks everyone for your continued input. I just realized I hadn't been subscribed to this thread, so I just played catch-up. I look forward to more input and will update accordingly. Maybe later this year we can have an update for more official content. *fingers crossed*

    I added a Terms/Definitions box, which only has SAD and MAD in it for now, since that was all I saw brought up.
    -Made a few other minor edits.
    -Added Tabaxi and Lizardfolk mentions for the non-monky monks section. Lizardfolk in particular are a solid choice for an armored monk.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2017-04-23 at 09:19 AM.

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    smile Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Skimmed this and the thread it was spawned from where someone freaked at thread necromancy (yes, I read the appropriate rule. It was still a freak out response IMO.)

    Totally interested in multiclassing but I just wanted to say something that people seem to want to slide over.

    Besides your personal pleasure in a multi-classing there are IMNSHO two questions to ask your self:

    1) In this campaign am I going to play up to and beyond the mid-teen to 20 level range? This affects if and how I want to multiclass.

    2) More importantly, what does my multiclassing bring to this particular group of characters (teamwork) that it could benefit from?

    Love the guide so far BTW. Thanks.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

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    Thumbs up Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    PeteNutButter, I have a whole list of "new to 5th" acronyms but the guide and some playing will probably, no definitely, overcome that. Finally found a use for 37 plus years of "govspeak/milspeak" experience.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    Skimmed this and the thread it was spawned from where someone freaked at thread necromancy (yes, I read the appropriate rule. It was still a freak out response IMO.)

    Totally interested in multiclassing but I just wanted to say something that people seem to want to slide over.

    Besides your personal pleasure in a multi-classing there are IMNSHO two questions to ask your self:

    1) In this campaign am I going to play up to and beyond the mid-teen to 20 level range? This affects if and how I want to multiclass.

    2) More importantly, what does my multiclassing bring to this particular group of characters (teamwork) that it could benefit from?

    Love the guide so far BTW. Thanks.
    As I understand it, thread necro is ok for notable threads such as guides etc.

    I generally multiclass early, accepting that most of my melee don't get extra attack until level 6. I have yet to have a single class character above level 5.

    Your points are in line with my general optimization rules, which I have yet to post to this forum, but may now be motivated to do so...

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    As I understand it, thread necro is ok for notable threads such as guides etc.

    I generally multiclass early, accepting that most of my melee don't get extra attack until level 6. I have yet to have a single class character above level 5.

    Your points are in line with my general optimization rules, which I have yet to post to this forum, but may now be motivated to do so...
    So did you post that general optimization guide? I would like very much to see it.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

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  24. - Top - End - #84
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Not a huge complaint, but I'd probably rate Bard/Wizard as Black at least. A 2 level dip in Wizard provides a Bard with all the level 1 ritual spells (which if nothing else can let the PC swap out Identify and Detect Magic off their lists). For a class that's known for its versatility, getting all those spells in exchange for the awful level 20 Bard Ability is definitely worth it. If you go with Divination at Wiz 2, that's a huge Ability to add to a Bard's control.

    Basically any 1st level abilities are better than Bard 20, but Wizard doesn't delay spell progression while providing lots of versatility. Divination is a really great Ability for a controller as well.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    So did you post that general optimization guide? I would like very much to see it.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...7#post22041947

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Not a huge complaint, but I'd probably rate Bard/Wizard as Black at least. A 2 level dip in Wizard provides a Bard with all the level 1 ritual spells (which if nothing else can let the PC swap out Identify and Detect Magic off their lists). For a class that's known for its versatility, getting all those spells in exchange for the awful level 20 Bard Ability is definitely worth it. If you go with Divination at Wiz 2, that's a huge Ability to add to a Bard's control.

    Basically any 1st level abilities are better than Bard 20, but Wizard doesn't delay spell progression while providing lots of versatility. Divination is a really great Ability for a controller as well.
    I can see the use there, but it is niche. I'd stick with the tome lock if you were desperate for rituals. It's one more level and delays slots, but comes with its own short rest slots, a massive increase in offensive at-will power via eldritch blast, and other potential goodies.

    While Portent is a good ability on any character, it sees no additional use on a character that would not typically have room for a 13 int. Wizard adds no proficiencies, is MAD and does basically nothing better than any other caster class addition to bard.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I can see the use there, but it is niche. I'd stick with the tome lock if you were desperate for rituals. It's one more level and delays slots, but comes with its own short rest slots, a massive increase in offensive at-will power via eldritch blast, and other potential goodies.

    While Portent is a good ability on any character, it sees no additional use on a character that would not typically have room for a 13 int. Wizard adds no proficiencies, is MAD and does basically nothing better than any other caster class addition to bard.
    I was trying to point out that Bard 19/Anything 1 is more optimal than Bard 20 (other than maybe Pally 1 if not starting Paladin for heavy armor), therefore they should be black at the least (with that 20th level of Bard being purple or red). Bard 20 only gives the 1 inspiration if out when Initiative is rolled, which is pretty bad as far as capstones go.

    Wiz 1 provides 3 Cantrips (including SCAG BB or GFB), 6 spells known and the recovery of a 1st level slot on a short rest. That's a preTty good trade for Bard 20. The second level provides a school Ability (again I like Divination in a dip) and 2 more spells known (and 1 more prepared) in exchange for an ASI. And both levels continue the spell slot progression.

    Again, not saying it's the best thing out there, but I disagree it's purple: Bard 19 and 20 don't even add any spells known. The net haul is worth the Int 13 (which on a skill monkey may already be present).

    The dip is probably better for Lore than Valor, though perhaps Bladesinger or Abjurer would be better for Valor at the second level of Wiz.

    Just a thought and thanks for the guide.
    Last edited by Rsp29a; 2017-05-29 at 03:15 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I think a good part of the black rating for Bard/Wizard is that while Bard 19/Wizard 1 is certainly better than Bard 20, Bard 4/Wizard 1 is not necessarily as good as Bard 5. The wizard dip trades added versatility for always being behind in spells, ASIs, or features. A multiclass with a high rating should ideally be advantageous at each level rather than at the max.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    I think a good part of the black rating for Bard/Wizard is that while Bard 19/Wizard 1 is certainly better than Bard 20, Bard 4/Wizard 1 is not necessarily as good as Bard 5. The wizard dip trades added versatility for always being behind in spells, ASIs, or features. A multiclass with a high rating should ideally be advantageous at each level rather than at the max.
    Bard/Wizard is currently rated purple, not black, unless it changed...

    Cutoff points are very important, and, depending on the campaign/character as group makeup, a lot of things can change. My point was going off of Pete's opening line of the multiclassing is compared to going to 20 in a class. Unless I miss read something, I was just pointing out that 20 Bard is the least optimal of the Bard options.

    Side note, I like my Bard dips after Bard 10, as you get way to much at 10 to get them before then.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    I think a good part of the black rating for Bard/Wizard is that while Bard 19/Wizard 1 is certainly better than Bard 20, Bard 4/Wizard 1 is not necessarily as good as Bard 5. The wizard dip trades added versatility for always being behind in spells, ASIs, or features. A multiclass with a high rating should ideally be advantageous at each level rather than at the max.
    ^This

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Bard/Wizard is currently rated purple, not black, unless it changed...

    Cutoff points are very important, and, depending on the campaign/character as group makeup, a lot of things can change. My point was going off of Pete's opening line of the multiclassing is compared to going to 20 in a class. Unless I miss read something, I was just pointing out that 20 Bard is the least optimal of the Bard options.

    Side note, I like my Bard dips after Bard 10, as you get way to much at 10 to get them before then.
    While Bard 19/Wizard 1 is better than Bard 20, Bard 17/any-other-caster 3 is also likely better. Cleric gives domain goodies shields for lore bards and either medium or heavy armor. Sorcerer and warlock are SAD give metamagic or tome and amazing EB. Even druid would let you use shields.

    Purple means:
    Purple You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD.

    That's three points 1) Forgoing too much? Check, at any level before 17 you are going behind a level on spells and gain some small low level utility. Due to the MADness playing through 10 or more levels of bard with a 13 int for what appears no apparent reason (until you eventually take those wizard levels) seems like it is definitely forgoing something. Con? Cha? 2) Niche Build? Check 3) MAD? Check

    None of that means "don't do it." It just means you need to know what you're doing. I've personally played several MC combinations that I've rated purple, and the characters worked out well. It just takes work, and an inexperienced player could easily gimp their character with a purple combination.

    At any rate if you noticed my optimization rules thread, as a whole I'm generally not all that concerned about level 20 builds. In my opinion, they make up so little of the gameplay that it isn't worth talking about. I point this out in the x/y or y/x section, saying that characters have to be played usually from levels 1 to 20.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2017-05-30 at 11:35 AM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Love this thread, thank you for all the hard work you put into it.
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