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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    BardGirl

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Bard/Wizard may be a lot better than you think. While I don't advocate dipping at all, sometimes it's more about the circumstances and the party than it is about min maxing. I went 10 Bard for my second magical secrets and then planned to dip warrior for the bow bonus. Then the loot drop happened, a headband of intellect. The party wizard already had a max intellect, the warrior, barbarian and priest didn't need it. I didn't really need it either but then the advantages struck me (other than the skill monkey and save implications). In a party without a rogue I was the scout so the armor buff from warrior didn't interest me, plus I'm a dex build so taking the dex penalty didn't thrill me either. I could have gone lock for the synergy but now I have a 19 int, so lets see how wizard works. Spell slots still work great, the ritual spells cover a wide range of things you need for downtime. Multiple level 1 wizard spells turned out to be amazing in the utility field. As a skill monkey I get to do a ton of things most of which can be helped along by wizard spells. Due to the overlap between Bard and Wizard in the spell department I was able to take spells I wanted instead of just DPS stuff. If the goal is to make me a combat god I don't recommend it, but if the goal is to flesh out all the other RP events, then it's a strong combination. Maybe Bard 18 (for magical secrets #4), Wizard 1 (for ritual caster + a large spellbook), and Rogue 1 for the extra 2 Expertise would be good. Or Fighter 1 for the +2 to archery/defense if you are not stuck with being sneaky. I spent so much time doing rogue like things that I actually took the year to learn theives tools. The DM wasn't enthusiastic so there were a bunch of hoops to jump through, but again, remember that learning a skill that adds synergy is another viable way to choose what class to dip into. A dip into Warlock would provide a lot more DPS but a whole lot less capability overall.

    As a side note, the specializations text does not say "at 14th level wizard you..." it says "at 14th level you..." which means to me if I'm a Transmuter (which I am) then I can become a master transmuter at character level x. Most DM's I suspect will not agree but there is at least 1 that see's it my way. With that said, if your DM subscribes to this interpretation then Wizard is the First Class every caster needs to dip into. It really won't do much for anyone who doesn't get spell slots another way.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Quoxis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Finger6842 View Post
    As a side note, the specializations text does not say "at 14th level wizard you..." it says "at 14th level you..." which means to me if I'm a Transmuter (which I am) then I can become a master transmuter at character level x. Most DM's I suspect will not agree but there is at least 1 that see's it my way. With that said, if your DM subscribes to this interpretation then Wizard is the First Class every caster needs to dip into. It really won't do much for anyone who doesn't get spell slots another way.
    Minor thread necromancy, but meh, we're talking about wizards anyways:
    Isn't there specified that class features only work with class levels, maybe in the multiclassing section or something? I vaguely remember having read something like that...
    "Can i touch myself before talking to that guy?"
    "..."
    "I mean can i cast a touch spell on myself..."
    "It's both possible, but one would probably lead to a bad outcome."

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Quoxis View Post
    Minor thread necromancy, but meh, we're talking about wizards anyways:
    Isn't there specified that class features only work with class levels, maybe in the multiclassing section or something? I vaguely remember having read something like that...
    This is correct. Class features that refer to level refer to class level in general. Cantrips are the only thing that scale with character level.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    thereaper's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Is there any particular reason the Barbarian's danger sense isn't ever mentioned? Advantage on dexterity saves seems pretty useful to me, given that most characters aren't so good at those.
    Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
    The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
    The Nameless One, converted to 3.5

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Quoxis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    Is there any particular reason the Barbarian's danger sense isn't ever mentioned? Advantage on dexterity saves seems pretty useful to me, given that most characters aren't so good at those.
    Probably because it's not especially synergetic with anything, it's just nice to have (and that applies to pretty much every class feature ever).
    "Can i touch myself before talking to that guy?"
    "..."
    "I mean can i cast a touch spell on myself..."
    "It's both possible, but one would probably lead to a bad outcome."

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    It helps Evasion and Shield Master apply their (maximal) benefits more often, but that's probably about it beyond boosting an already good save or helping to compensate for the save being bad. The unfortunate thing is that it's advantage, so it won't stack with sources of advantage (ex. Bladesong).

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    Is there any particular reason the Barbarian's danger sense isn't ever mentioned? Advantage on dexterity saves seems pretty useful to me, given that most characters aren't so good at those.
    Danger sense is a notable ability, but rarely the reason people take 2 or more levels in barbarian. It is more a nice bonus, if you plan to rage and/or reckless attack. If your character doesn't intend to rage or use reckless attack, it'd be tough to justify the 2 level dip.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    thereaper's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I don't know. People use one of their precious ASIs to take Resilient. In a game going to 20, a 2 level dip for advantage on Dex saves seems about equivalent to me.

    Then again, that's just me. YMMV.
    Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
    The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
    The Nameless One, converted to 3.5

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    BLUF: How much to dip?

    My plan is to dip Cleric first. Either 4 levels get that ASI or 1 just for heavy armor and all simple weapons.

    Note: Role play and party support rules over racial or statistical optimization.

    So, AL gaming, Wizard dipping Life or Nature Cleric, Variant Human using Point Buy:

    ST 13 using Heavy Armor Master for +1 ST to 14, with War Caster at first ASI.
    CO 10
    DE 10
    IN 15+1=16
    WI 15+1=16
    CH 8

    Following War Caster at 4th the ASIs will be +2 IN, Spell Sniper, then TBD.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    i see a lot of X/warlock talk but what about warlock/x

    mainly looking at Warlock/bard. im thinking of going to warlock 8 then go into bard a bit. stopping somewhere around 6. then going back into warlock to either finish it off or go a bit more into it until returning back to bard.
    (ability scores: 10str 10dex 14con 12int 13wis 17cha)

    what would you people do starting from a warlock class?
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Quoxis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    i see a lot of X/warlock talk but what about warlock/x

    mainly looking at Warlock/bard. im thinking of going to warlock 8 then go into bard a bit. stopping somewhere around 6. then going back into warlock to either finish it off or go a bit more into it until returning back to bard.
    (ability scores: 10str 10dex 14con 12int 13wis 17cha)

    what would you people do starting from a warlock class?
    The problem i see with a high warlock mc is the lack of spell slots. Maybe that's just me because i dislike spamming the same cantrip as the main tactics for a full caster. At least bard has access to rapiers to mix it up (iirc).
    Also: warlock doesn't give you spell slot progression, meaning that at level 20 your build has the slots and spells known of a 6th level bard (meaning 3 third, 3 second and 4 first level slots) and a 14th level warlock (meaning 3 fifth level slots and one 6th and 7th level "arcanum"). That doesn't seem bad, but it's a 20th level caster spamming cantrips and short rests to regain his medium level slots.

    Edit: rereading it, my comment seems pretty harsh, which wasn't intended. MC as you like, i've been playing weird characters too and had a blast with lots of them (monkbarian ftw!), the above was just meant from an optimization point of view.
    Last edited by Quoxis; 2017-09-01 at 01:05 AM.
    "Can i touch myself before talking to that guy?"
    "..."
    "I mean can i cast a touch spell on myself..."
    "It's both possible, but one would probably lead to a bad outcome."

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    BLUF: How much to dip?

    My plan is to dip Cleric first. Either 4 levels get that ASI or 1 just for heavy armor and all simple weapons.

    Note: Role play and party support rules over racial or statistical optimization.

    So, AL gaming, Wizard dipping Life or Nature Cleric, Variant Human using Point Buy:

    ST 13 using Heavy Armor Master for +1 ST to 14, with War Caster at first ASI.
    CO 10
    DE 10
    IN 15+1=16
    WI 15+1=16
    CH 8

    Following War Caster at 4th the ASIs will be +2 IN, Spell Sniper, then TBD.
    Damn hobby shop closing unexpectedly totally upset the apple cart, sigh.

    Okay, getting a lot of friendly pressure to run “Your usual Mountain Dwarf” but as a MC Fighter/Wizard from a fellow player in a Tier 2 start game group at house.

    Just to not be railroaded completely I designed a DE based Fighter as base. I know he is thinking plate armored Wizard...

    ST 8+2=10
    DE 15 for finesse and ranged weapons; multiclass
    CO 14+2=16
    IN 15 multiclass
    WI 10
    CH 8

    Feat for level 4= +1 IN, +1 DE

    Medium armor, need to check with DM what would be acceptable. When benefits from higher DE change to light armor?

    Feats planned:
    Level 8 +2 IN
    Level 12 (likely) +2 DE
    Level 16 (unlikely but possible) +2 IN
    Level 19 (probably not) +2 DE

    Better or worse than my original character?
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Have you considered an Arcane Cleric from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? That accomplishes much of what you're after here.
    ~Snow

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfalcon View Post
    Have you considered an Arcane Cleric from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? That accomplishes much of what you're after here.
    I would need a 13 WI to move from cleric to Wizard.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    I would need a 13 WI to move from cleric to Wizard.
    Sorry, wasn't suggesting that. And I apologize if I missed something. Suggesting that rather than build a dwarf fighter and slide to wizard, build a dwarf cleric of the arcane. Unless you want the weapons and other fighter features shift INT to WIS as the arcane cleric gets arcane (wizard) spells and cantrips and casts them using WIS. Heavier armor comes with it and using a feat later could upgrade from medium to heavy.

    Just a thought but it seems to satisfy much of what you're after just by swapping the two stats. Never really thought about it but dwarf is a good fit for that class.
    ~Snow

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfalcon View Post
    Sorry, wasn't suggesting that. And I apologize if I missed something. Suggesting that rather than build a dwarf fighter and slide to wizard, build a dwarf cleric of the arcane. Unless you want the weapons and other fighter features shift INT to WIS as the arcane cleric gets arcane (wizard) spells and cantrips and casts them using WIS. Heavier armor comes with it and using a feat later could upgrade from medium to heavy.

    Just a thought but it seems to satisfy much of what you're after just by swapping the two stats. Never really thought about it but dwarf is a good fit for that class.
    Yeah, I was thinking playing a wizard for my usual single class Mountain Dwarf character originally “just because” I did it in OD&D homebrew but as the parties are averaging 7 or “only” 6 right now I have had a lot of thoughts about M C might be a good thing to try.

    Other than humans in any shape or form (I have a VHuman Ranger in Chult but that gets raised eyebrows a lot) a Wizard is perhaps the rarest class to show up at games tables so far locally. Lots of Warlocks and Sorcerors at Tier 1 and just entered Tier 2, one game before FLGS closed, with my Mountain Dwarf Monk but I can’t remember another human other than (once) a Barbarian in any of our AL gaming.

    Actually thought about Arcana Cleric but as responding to an idea a friend was extolling for our rebooted gaming. I am not sure what Tier (1 or 2) the DM is going to start at so now would be the time to play with MCing it seems.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    BLUF: How much to dip?

    My plan is to dip Cleric first. Either 4 levels get that ASI or 1 just for heavy armor and all simple weapons.

    Note: Role play and party support rules over racial or statistical optimization.

    So, AL gaming, Wizard dipping Life or Nature Cleric, Variant Human using Point Buy:

    ST 13 using Heavy Armor Master for +1 ST to 14, with War Caster at first ASI.
    CO 10
    DE 10
    IN 15+1=16
    WI 15+1=16
    CH 8

    Following War Caster at 4th the ASIs will be +2 IN, Spell Sniper, then TBD.
    Snowfalcon,

    this was my original idea for a VHuman character before my friend made a pitch for using one of my Dwarf figures as inspiration for a Mountain Dwarf MC Wizard.
    Last edited by ZorroGames; 2017-10-29 at 08:10 AM.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    i see a lot of X/warlock talk but what about warlock/x

    mainly looking at Warlock/bard. im thinking of going to warlock 8 then go into bard a bit. stopping somewhere around 6. then going back into warlock to either finish it off or go a bit more into it until returning back to bard.
    (ability scores: 10str 10dex 14con 12int 13wis 17cha)

    what would you people do starting from a warlock class?
    I would put more on Dex instead of Wis.

    Warlock 2 is great, 8 is ok, and I see no reason to stay after 12.
    If you don't have healers in your party, take 1 Bard for Healing Word. Even if you do, Tasha's and Dissonant Whispers are good enough to justify a dip any time after W2.

    My suggestion:
    W2
    B1
    W6
    B11

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    8wGremlin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I like Warlock 3/X

    It gives you level 2 lots, your pact boon, as well as 2 invocations.
    If you have access to UA or XGE (hopefully)

    Look at Hexblade, for armour and weapons keyed of CHA, and at the healing elixir spell.
    I'd pair it with Arcane Trickster Rogue, Lore Bard or divine/favored soul Sorcerer.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Great guide, I couldn't agree more on the importance of ASIs. They are generally better than most class features, except for Extra Attack.
    I also love how you don't care about level 20. Even if you reach it (most characters don't) it is only 5% of your play time.

    What I miss, is the ratings of single classes. The color coding helps to decide if a Bard or Fighter multiclass helps more a Barbarian, but it gives no clue wether you should multiclass in the first place.
    For example: Barb/Fighter is rated sky blue, but there are exactly two places where a BarbX/F1 is behind a single class barbarian in my opinion; B4/F1 and B19/F1. This would put the single class at blue.

    A Moon druid has only one good reason not to take Monk1; if it already has Barb1. (I would rate these sky blue btw)

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mervold View Post
    Great guide, I couldn't agree more on the importance of ASIs. They are generally better than most class features, except for Extra Attack.
    I also love how you don't care about level 20. Even if you reach it (most characters don't) it is only 5% of your play time.

    What I miss, is the ratings of single classes. The color coding helps to decide if a Bard or Fighter multiclass helps more a Barbarian, but it gives no clue wether you should multiclass in the first place.
    For example: Barb/Fighter is rated sky blue, but there are exactly two places where a BarbX/F1 is behind a single class barbarian in my opinion; B4/F1 and B19/F1. This would put the single class at blue.

    A Moon druid has only one good reason not to take Monk1; if it already has Barb1. (I would rate these sky blue btw)
    Thanks, I'm looking forward to updating it once Xanathar's comes out.

    I'll look to play a druid next so I have more than just theory to rely on for them. Currently I'm hesitant to encourage MC for moon druid's as they suffer/benefit from spikes in effectiveness every few levels, similar to extra attack via access to new forms. It sucks to be behind a level or two for extra attack, and moon druid's get that same feeling every 2-3 levels. I may change them both to sky blue going forward.

    Currently playing a monk, and working on updating the monk in this guide.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I just made a character that I'll be using for a session coming up. Here's the stats:
    18/13/18/8/14/8 (13 Dex, pump Str and Con)
    Barbarian 9 / Rogue 7 / Fighter 4
    (x / 5 / 4 at lower levels)

    I think the synergy is awesome. Barbarian's reckless attack gives advantage for Sneak Attack, and a Champion fighter gets improved critical, which is especially good, since advantage further improves the critical rate and couples nicely with Sneak Attack (and Brutal Critical). The only drawback is that I'm limited to finesse weapons, so I'm using a rapier.

    My character is a Dwarf with Path of the Battlerager, Inquisitive, Champion, and Shield Master feat. (Inquisitive/shield master give other options besides reckless attack. I chose these for RP purposes as well, and I'm sure a different combo would be more optomized than this one.)

    I'd appreciate if someone would say what they thought about this and/or suggest some changes.
    (This may not work for the above chart since it's triple-classing.)

    Edit: Whoops! I'll start a new thread.
    Last edited by Pimplup; 2017-12-01 at 11:26 PM. Reason: minor tweaks

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Pimplup View Post
    I just made a character that I'll be using for a session coming up. Here's the stats:
    18/13/18/8/14/8 (13 Dex, pump Str and Con)
    Barbarian 9 / Rogue 7 / Fighter 4
    (x / 5 / 4 at lower levels)

    I think the synergy is awesome. Barbarian's reckless attack gives advantage for Sneak Attack, and a Champion fighter gets improved critical, which is especially good, since advantage further improves the critical rate and couples nicely with Sneak Attack (and Brutal Critical). The only drawback is that I'm limited to finesse weapons, so I'm using a rapier.

    My character is a Dwarf with Path of the Battlerager, Inquisitive, Champion, and Shield Master feat. (Inquisitive/shield master give other options besides reckless attack.) I chose these for RP purposes as well, and I'm sure a different combo would be more optomized than this one.

    I'd appreciate if someone would say what they thought about this and/or suggest some changes.
    (This may not work for the above chart since it's triple-classing.)
    It's probably best if you start a new thread to discuss specific character builds, so as not to crowd this one with posts regarding a specific build. The build looks fine, though I'd have more input if you started a new thread.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I'm going to argue that thanks to XGtE, Paladin/Warlock is now the best multiclass you can get.
    Let's consider a level 4 Paladin 3 / Warlock 1 (Oath of Vengence / Pact of the Blade):

    First off, this is completely SAD, since Pact of the Blade makes Charisma the weapon's ability modifier. What's really cool, though, is what happens when they fight a boss (or the strongest enemy that day). Thanks to the curse, damage rolls are boosted by their proficiency bonus and score a crit on 19-20. And if they use Vow of Enmity, they can gain advantage, which (with the curse) gives a 19% crit chance. And if they happen to crit, it not only doubles the weapon die (e.g. a d10 for the longsword), but it doubles Hunter's Mark, and they can add on a Double Divine Smite as well.

    Once they level up to Paladin 5 (or Warlock 5 with Thirsting Blade), they get 2 chances to crit per turn, making the odds a little over 1 in 3.

    Anyway, a Paladin—and I guess literally any Cha-based caster—would do extremely well with Warlock Pact of the Blade. Hopefully this gets incorporated into the chart.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Pimplup View Post
    I'm going to argue that thanks to XGtE, Paladin/Warlock is now the best multiclass you can get.
    Let's consider a level 4 Paladin 3 / Warlock 1 (Oath of Vengence / Pact of the Blade):

    First off, this is completely SAD, since Pact of the Blade makes Charisma the weapon's ability modifier. What's really cool, though, is what happens when they fight a boss (or the strongest enemy that day). Thanks to the curse, damage rolls are boosted by their proficiency bonus and score a crit on 19-20. And if they use Vow of Enmity, they can gain advantage, which (with the curse) gives a 19% crit chance. And if they happen to crit, it not only doubles the weapon die (e.g. a d10 for the longsword), but it doubles Hunter's Mark, and they can add on a Double Divine Smite as well.

    Once they level up to Paladin 5 (or Warlock 5 with Thirsting Blade), they get 2 chances to crit per turn, making the odds a little over 1 in 3.

    Anyway, a Paladin—and I guess literally any Cha-based caster—would do extremely well with Warlock Pact of the Blade. Hopefully this gets incorporated into the chart.
    I'm currently playing a paladin 6/warlock 2. It is incredibly powerful. Keep in mind what you are describing requires 3 bonus actions to set up. It's not often you have 3 bonus actions to attack the same foe. Usually by that point they are dead or near to it. To me the power of the SADness of the build is in the Aura of Protection.

    I'm in the process of updating the guide, and have only gotten as far as cleric... give me some time...
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2017-12-03 at 02:37 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Pimplup View Post
    I'm going to argue that thanks to XGtE, Paladin/Warlock is now the best multiclass you can get.
    Where have you been the last 3 years? I've been in the understanding that it's always been the best combination!

    Other than that, a minor nitpick: Hexblade ≠ Pact of the Blade!
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
    Note: Blue text written in italics implies lighthearted sarcasm. Don't take it seriously.


    sarcasm
    /ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
    noun
    the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anon von Zilch View Post
    Words actually mean things, people!

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I retract my previous statement; Warlock/Monk is the most optimal multiclass ever.

    Consider a level 3 Warlock 1/Monk 2 with Hexblade:
    Thanks to bonus actions, they can use Hexblade's Curse and Hex in addition to attacking or whatever. By the time they make an attack on their third turn (and every turn afterward until they run out of ki points), Flurry of Blows lets them add 3d6 and 3x their proficiency bonus to their damage that turn. They could instead forgo one of them to hit almost as hard on the second turn.

    At Warlock 1/Monk 5 with a Quarterstaff and +4 Dex, this would total to 2d8+2d6+16+4d6+12 (extra attack, unarmed strikes, Dex mod to damage, Hex bonus, and Hexblade's Curse bonus respectively), totaling to 58 damage on average. Of course, this starts on the third turn and assumes that every attack hits, but nevertheless it's still unbelievable.

    To me this seems far too good to be true.
    Last edited by Pimplup; 2017-12-05 at 04:51 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Petenutbutter, thanks very much for this great guide! Am really loving it. Very helpful. Thanks also for the hard work and the excellent art choices, too. They really spice it up nicely - really good pics.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chugger View Post
    Petenutbutter, thanks very much for this great guide! Am really loving it. Very helpful. Thanks also for the hard work and the excellent art choices, too. They really spice it up nicely - really good pics.
    Thanks, still working at it... almost done with fighter. I'll post again once it's fully updated.

    Adding for Every Combination:
    -Pictures
    -Flavor Text in Italics that gives potential RP reasons (Yes, RP! *GASP*) and potential names for the MC
    -Example Build
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Pimplup View Post
    I retract my previous statement; Warlock/Monk is the most optimal multiclass ever.

    Consider a level 3 Warlock 1/Monk 2 with Hexblade:
    Thanks to bonus actions, they can use Hexblade's Curse and Hex in addition to attacking or whatever. By the time they make an attack on their third turn (and every turn afterward until they run out of ki points), Flurry of Blows lets them add 3d6 and 3x their proficiency bonus to their damage that turn. They could instead forgo one of them to hit almost as hard on the second turn.

    At Warlock 1/Monk 5 with a Quarterstaff and +4 Dex, this would total to 2d8+2d6+16+4d6+12 (extra attack, unarmed strikes, Dex mod to damage, Hex bonus, and Hexblade's Curse bonus respectively), totaling to 58 damage on average. Of course, this starts on the third turn and assumes that every attack hits, but nevertheless it's still unbelievable.

    To me this seems far too good to be true.
    Very interesting!

    I’m not super familiar with monks —I’m curious if there are other synergies as well, that this is adding on to? I’m aware shadow monks often dip warlock 2 for devil’s sight... but I wonder if anything else in XGE opens up new potential for monk/warlock synergiez (despite the MAD-ness of the combo).

    One thing that occurs to me, is open hand’s ability to prone on hit would combo nicely with Elven Accuracy and the hexblade curse’s improved crit range... (and of course, already synergized with hexing dex)

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