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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrpergande78 View Post
    How effective would a fighter/warlock(HexBlade)/sorcerer build be? I currently have a lvl 3 HexBlade and planned to dip into sorcerer, but also thought about adding one lvl of fighter.
    It'd be best if you had started fighter for con saves and potentially heavy armor. You don't want to spread yourself too thin. At this point make sure you take 5 levels of hexblade before anything else, since two attacks a round is a huge boon. If you spam EB you could delay that extra attack, but then your stuck not being in melee. After that you are probably better in sorcerer or more warlock. What is it you want out of fighter? It's probably worth it if you are an archer looking for that juicy +2 to hit, otherwise give it a miss.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    That's what I was thinking, so I'll keep to my plan of Warlock/Sorcerer. I had planned to wait to character level 6 before my first dip.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Post Character progression tips

    @PeteNutButter

    Thanks for this amazing guide, this gives a lot of ideas!


    I had a question regarding my existing character.
    He is a Mountain Dwarf lvl 6 battlemaster fighter, lvl 1 Hexblade warlock with the following (rolled) stats:
    STR 20 INT 7
    DEX 9 WIS 10
    CON 18 CHA 14

    I have originally built him as a sword and board fighter with a +1 longsword. He has the shield master, martial adept and resilient wisdom (homebrew background) feats.
    He is trying to become the best fighter there is to save his hometown from evil drow and other monsters and when xanathar's came out hexblade seemed like a very interesting multiclass option.
    But now that I have started that path I'm not sure where to continue that path to. Warcaster and Sentinel seem nice feats
    How many levels warlock will I take? Which pact boon should I take? Is grabbing some levels sorcerer useful?
    I have found many guides on this with two handed weapons or even dual wielding weapons, but none with sword and board. Can anyone give me some tips?
    Oh and my party consists of a paladin, a div wizard/tempest cleric, lore bard and hopefully a rogue (he just disappeared at the end of last session).
    Thanks in advance!

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Character progression tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Fierdaus View Post
    @PeteNutButter

    Thanks for this amazing guide, this gives a lot of ideas!


    I had a question regarding my existing character.
    He is a Mountain Dwarf lvl 6 battlemaster fighter, lvl 1 Hexblade warlock with the following (rolled) stats:
    STR 20 INT 7
    DEX 9 WIS 10
    CON 18 CHA 14

    I have originally built him as a sword and board fighter with a +1 longsword. He has the shield master, martial adept and resilient wisdom (homebrew background) feats.
    He is trying to become the best fighter there is to save his hometown from evil drow and other monsters and when xanathar's came out hexblade seemed like a very interesting multiclass option.
    But now that I have started that path I'm not sure where to continue that path to. Warcaster and Sentinel seem nice feats
    How many levels warlock will I take? Which pact boon should I take? Is grabbing some levels sorcerer useful?
    I have found many guides on this with two handed weapons or even dual wielding weapons, but none with sword and board. Can anyone give me some tips?
    Oh and my party consists of a paladin, a div wizard/tempest cleric, lore bard and hopefully a rogue (he just disappeared at the end of last session).
    Thanks in advance!
    Well hexblade is a great dip for people who want to use cha to attack. With your already maxed str, it’s basically 1 hex and 1 curse per short rest. That’s good, but both of those scale off of number of attacks. Given that, you’ll probably find nothing is quite as good as nabbing that 3rd attack at fighter 11. If you want to be the best fighter, be more fighter IMO.

    Warcaster isn’t really worth it unless you’re casting the shield spell. Once a short rest from hexblade isn’t worth talking the feat. I’d consider it if you also dipped sorcerer.

    Sentinel is very strong, especially if you’re the team tank and have limited reaction uses.

    I don’t see much of an advantage to taking more than 2 levels in warlock, for the invocations.

    Fighter 11/warlock 2/x is where’d I would aim.

    For that x? What do you like? Blade bard could work, using flourishes to stack even more AC. They are basically more superioirty dice. I’d boost cha if I were to do that.

    Maybe something like:
    Fighter 12/warlock 3/blade bard 5 rushing fighter to 11 then bard to 5.

    With all you have already, you can’t go wrong. Do what you want, but keep in mind most games don’t go all the way to 20.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-01-23 at 01:09 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    What is MADness? I'm having a bit of a time of it sorting the lingo here...

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Just wanted to chime in and say a big thank you. This guide really showed me the customization/optimization options out there, which was a bit step toward getting me into D&D in general. Thanks to you, I’ve had enormous amounts of fun with my Dex based Barb/Rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cressellan View Post
    What is MADness? I'm having a bit of a time of it sorting the lingo here...
    Multiple Attribute Disorder. It’s when you combine classes that key off different stats. Since Ability Score Improvements are precious, and point buy only allows you to specialize in two attributes.
    Last edited by KOLE; 2018-01-27 at 01:46 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I’d call Warlock and Barbarian multiclass “Reaver” instead of “Rage blade”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    "Just because the DM lets you break the game, doesn't mean the game is broken."
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "My Patron is Steven Spielberg"
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    Multiple Attribute Disorder. It’s when you combine classes that key off different stats. Since Ability Score Improvements are precious, and point buy only allows you to specialize in two attributes.
    LOL Good one

    It's really Multiple Attribute Dependency, but "disorder" is pretty funny.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix_Walker View Post
    LOL Good one

    It's really Multiple Attribute Dependency, but "disorder" is pretty funny.
    Hahaha oh my God. I’d been working all night and really shouldn’t have been offering insight in my state. That is funny though.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    Hahaha oh my God. I’d been working all night and really shouldn’t have been offering insight in my state. That is funny though.
    I found that definition the cherry on top of a wonderful day when I read it. I may start using it with gaming friends.

    Gracias!
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Fighter dipping Wizard example - should the IN be 14 not 8 in the example spoiler? You need at least 13 IN to MC, right?
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    Fighter dipping Wizard example - should the IN be 14 not 8 in the example spoiler? You need at least 13 IN to MC, right?
    Looks like I transposed the int and cha. Thanks for catching it. I’ll fix it now.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Looks like I transposed the int and cha. Thanks for catching it. I’ll fix it now.
    You’re welcome. I refuse to say how long I looked at that wondering, “this looks weird, why?”
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Foxydono's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I've been thinking about creating a bard 18 / div wizard 2 back-up character in case my main dies. When I look at the guides multiclassing bard/wizard is rated purple, but when I look at the benefits end game, I'd say it's at least blue.

    What you get: divination dice, which should't be underestimated. Shield, find familiar or other useful spells and you don't need a high int for this. Sure you can already take wizard spells at 6th, but you rather want to take other spells there like find steed, haste, counterspell etc. Same for higher levels. So I see some overlap but not much.

    What you need: 13 int, I would't call this MAD, it's a small price to pay. What hurts the most is slower spell progression. But both are still caster classes, so it's not that bad. And if you look at the endgame, the last two bard levels are easily given up, since their lvl 20 ability sucks, so you miss one feat. Compared to what you get in return I'd say that is a fair deal.

    So my conclusion is that this multiclass is quite worth while. Sure pally is better if you go melee and warlock gives devilsight and blasting, which is really good combo if you play a race without darkvision. But shield, find familiar and divination dice are excellent defense/control. I'd say just one step lower compared than the other two due to int requirement. So maybe you could reconsider the color rating.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxydono View Post
    I've been thinking about creating a bard 18 / div wizard 2 back-up character in case my main dies. When I look at the guides multiclassing bard/wizard is rated purple, but when I look at the benefits end game, I'd say it's at least blue.

    What you get: divination dice, which should't be underestimated. Shield, find familiar or other useful spells and you don't need a high int for this. Sure you can already take wizard spells at 6th, but you rather want to take other spells there like find steed, haste, counterspell etc. Same for higher levels. So I see some overlap but not much.

    What you need: 13 int, I would't call this MAD, it's a small price to pay. What hurts the most is slower spell progression. But both are still caster classes, so it's not that bad. And if you look at the endgame, the last two bard levels are easily given up, since their lvl 20 ability sucks, so you miss one feat. Compared to what you get in return I'd say that is a fair deal.

    So my conclusion is that this multiclass is quite worth while. Sure pally is better if you go melee and warlock gives devilsight and blasting, which is really good combo if you play a race without darkvision. But shield, find familiar and divination dice are excellent defense/control. I'd say just one step lower compared than the other two due to int requirement. So maybe you could reconsider the color rating.
    You'll note that I've had similar conversations above with a lot of purple rated MCs. The reality is that there are many viable purple options. The main thing wizard offers over sorcerer is the rituals, such as find familiar. While strong, 5 points on point buy makes the character significantly weaker in either AC, HP, or casting for the bulk of their career. That doesn't say it's not viable, just says it takes some optimization, and knowing what you're doing. The diviner dice are good, but are good on any character. There is nothing that makes it specifically synergistic between bard and wizard, just a strong feature.

    To sum up, strong individual features do not make MC combinations rated higher, the highest rated MCs, are things where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If it's MAD and has no obvious synergy (but still some good features on both sides) then it'll end up purple. I'll also repeat that I've played several purple combinations to success.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  16. - Top - End - #166
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I think Rogue/Wizard is blue in the chart and light blue in the description.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Pimplup View Post
    I think Rogue/Wizard is blue in the chart and light blue in the description.
    Fixed. Thank you.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Looking at this and hearing one of my co-players in Chult about our lack of a tank or a rogue started me thinking.

    The other three are pretty much always some kind of caster (Tortle Cleric, Druid, Warlock, never a Bard, and this is compounded by our Melee Ranger or Paladin player is in an extended duration MTG - I think - tournament) so I started crafting a “next campaign” Mountain Dwarf (of course what else) version of this:

    From your guide:
    Human V. (SM)
    BM Fighter 6/Swashbuckler 3+
    16, 13, 16, 8, 10, 10

    Champion might be tempting for big crits on sneak attacks, but nothing beats Riposte on rogues. Combine with sentinel and a good AC for regular reaction attacks that utilize sneak attack 2 times per round. Rapier and shield works with either dex or str build. Str build is better at using shield master and usually a little more AC, dex retains ability to stealth and perform other roguish actions
    .

    With that build goal and Mountain Dwarf Strength and Constitution boosts I have 4 left over build points. Should I boost IN to 12 for skills or split between boosting DE to 14 and IN to 10? I prefer the first but input would be nice before I make my decision.

    I am playing a ranged Ranger currently iin this campaign so this would the next campaign since we are levels 5 (me, having missed two sessions,) to 7 and I prefer building from Level 1.

    Edit: It was pointed out to me that a high CH score might be useful for a swashbuckler so I might boost CH to 12 and IN to 10.
    Last edited by ZorroGames; 2018-02-08 at 10:07 AM.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    Looking at this and hearing one of my co-players in Chult about our lack of a tank or a rogue started me thinking.

    The other three are pretty much always some kind of caster (Tortle Cleric, Druid, Warlock, never a Bard, and this is compounded by our Melee Ranger or Paladin player is in an extended duration MTG - I think - tournament) so I started crafting a “next campaign” Mountain Dwarf (of course what else) version of this:

    From your guide:
    Human V. (SM)
    BM Fighter 6/Swashbuckler 3+
    16, 13, 16, 8, 10, 10

    Champion might be tempting for big crits on sneak attacks, but nothing beats Riposte on rogues. Combine with sentinel and a good AC for regular reaction attacks that utilize sneak attack 2 times per round. Rapier and shield works with either dex or str build. Str build is better at using shield master and usually a little more AC, dex retains ability to stealth and perform other roguish actions
    .

    With that build goal and Mountain Dwarf Strength and Constitution boosts I have 4 left over build points. Should I boost IN to 12 for skills or split between boosting DE to 14 and IN to 10? I prefer the first but input would be nice before I make my decision.

    I am playing a ranged Ranger currently iin this campaign so this would the next campaign since we are levels 5 (me, having missed two sessions,) to 7 and I prefer building from Level 1.

    Edit: It was pointed out to me that a high CH score might be useful for a swashbuckler so I might boost CH to 12 and IN to 10.
    I don't value initiative all that much, but int is pretty useless. I'm a big fan of mountain dwarf starting with two 17s (str/con) and using ASI to have to 18s earlier than any other race.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I don't value initiative all that much, but int is pretty useless. I'm a big fan of mountain dwarf starting with two 17s (str/con) and using ASI to have to 18s earlier than any other race.
    So,

    17
    13
    17
    8
    12
    8

    For example?
    Or
    .
    .
    .
    8
    10
    10
    ?
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    So,

    17
    13
    17
    8
    12
    8

    For example?
    Or
    .
    .
    .
    8
    10
    10
    ?
    My Mtn Dwarf Barb went
    17
    14
    17
    8
    10
    8

    Max DX for Medium Armor (although your Unarmored Defense is as good as a Breastplate), first ASL went +1ST, +1CN for the 18s. After that, you have the options to bump WS if you're worried about saves, Shield Master for bash and stab fun, etc. Bear totem with Uncanny Dodge is borderline gamebreaking.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    When to dip is not obvious to me in some cases.

    I get Fighter at first for Warlock/Fighter (Maledictor) with Fighter second “sometime later.”

    Ditto for Bard/Fighter (Wardrummer.) And Fighter 1, Wizard 5, Fighter 2, Wizard 18, for Spell Sword.

    But somethings are not so clear to me.

    One such case is the (Guerrila) Rogue/Fighter - the Fighter 6 (Battle Master) - and Rogue 1+ build.

    Do you think you should Take Fighter first or Rogue? Should you take Fighter to 6, pumping DE at 4th and 6th then proceed Rogue?

    Or should you take Rogue 1st then Fighter 6 for Rogue skills and that 1D6 of sneak attack then after Fighter 6 return to Rogue for the rest of the build past 7th?


    The Striker (Fighter 4/Ranger X) and Pugilist builds are for another couple of posts.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Squinty View Post
    My Mtn Dwarf Barb went
    17
    14
    17
    8
    10
    8

    Max DX for Medium Armor (although your Unarmored Defense is as good as a Breastplate), first ASL went +1ST, +1CN for the 18s. After that, you have the options to bump WS if you're worried about saves, Shield Master for bash and stab fun, etc. Bear totem with Uncanny Dodge is borderline gamebreaking.
    That is another great build for Mountain Dwarf Barbarian.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I don't value initiative all that much, but int is pretty useless. I'm a big fan of mountain dwarf starting with two 17s (str/con) and using ASI to have to 18s earlier than any other race.
    Sorry for the delayed reply, thanks very much.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    This is a great guide. I was researching multi class wizard/cleric, and I was not disappointed. Though why do barbarian/monk and monk/barbarian have different pictures? And why are they both characters from other franchises?

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Blahdalizer View Post
    This is a great guide. I was researching multi class wizard/cleric, and I was not disappointed. Though why do barbarian/monk and monk/barbarian have different pictures? And why are they both characters from other franchises?
    I'm AFB, but if I recall, In regards to Unarmored Defense when multiclassing is determined by the order of which class grants it first.

    While the name of the feature is same, they are not exactly the same, as funny as it may seem to be.

    Barbarian's Unarmored Defense: 10+Dex+Con+Shield (if available)
    vs.
    Monk's Unarmored Defense:
    10+Dex+Wis (doesn't work with shield)

    While not a direct answer to the question, this might provide a clue to why the pictures are different.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2018-03-19 at 01:41 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I present some musings from what certainly cannot be called an analysis but caught my attention.

    Assume Gold and Sky Blue are grouped as, “IF you multiclass you must look at this!”

    Blue and Black as varying levels of, “Well it depends on your goals.”

    Purple and Red as layers of, “Muhahahahaha, really?”

    Looking at what are the most common beneficial (Gold and Sky Blue) classes to dip into I see Fighter with 7, Cleric with 5; Rogue with 4, Paladin/Ranger/Sorcerer/Warlock with 3; Barbarian and Bard with 1 followed by Druid, Monk and Wizard with 0.

    So my take away is that the best classes commonly that add value as a dip are Fighter and Cleric with Rogue quite competitive.

    The least Common value adding dip in general seem to be Druid, Monk and Wizard (two of them are in my single class favorites from the first rendition of the game when there were no editions or “basic” versions.)

    Of course choosing to multiclass and how to/when to do so is much more complicated than my little snapshot though any thoughts on what, if anything, that means are welcome.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    And for those are into more painful rambling it is noted that Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue have least number of bottom tier values at 0, 0, and 0 each. Make what you may of that. I see it as an indicator a potentially good set of classes to consider dipping.

    Highest number of purple and red values are are Monk and Wizard at 7. I conclude when it is comes to single class players that Monk and Wizard should provide the least temptation to taint the character with muddled ‘signature’ traits. Or maybe that means absolutely nothing?

    As slways, YMMV and probably should.
    Last edited by ZorroGames; 2018-03-19 at 03:51 PM.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    I present some musings from what certainly cannot be called an analysis but caught my attention.

    Assume Gold and Sky Blue are grouped as, “IF you multiclass you must look at this!”

    Blue and Black as varying levels of, “Well it depends on your goals.”

    Purple and Red as layers of, “Muhahahahaha, really?”

    Looking at what are the most common beneficial (Gold and Sky Blue) classes to dip into I see Fighter with 7, Cleric with 5; Rogue with 4, Paladin/Ranger/Sorcerer/Warlock with 3; Barbarian and Bard with 1 followed by Druid, Monk and Wizard with 0.

    So my take away is that the best classes commonly that add value as a dip are Fighter and Cleric with Rogue quite competitive.

    The least Common value adding dip in general seem to be Druid, Monk and Wizard (two of them are in my single class favorites from the first rendition of the game when there were no editions or “basic” versions.)

    Of course choosing to multiclass and how to/when to do so is much more complicated than my little snapshot though any thoughts on what, if anything, that means are welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    And for those are into more painful rambling it is noted that Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue have least number of bottom tier values at 0, 0, and 0 each. Make what you may of that. I see it as an indicator a potentially good set of classes to consider dipping.

    Highest number of purple and red values are are Monk and Wizard at 7. I conclude when it is comes to single class players that Monk and Wizard should provide the least temptation to taint the character with muddled ‘signature’ traits. Or maybe that means absolutely nothing?

    As slways, YMMV and probably should.
    Interesting analysis, I generally did my best to optimize each combination and just rated it on how viable/easy/optimal that combination was, without regard to the bigger picture. It does make sense that those classes that require only one 13 in a stat that is a common save (dex or wis) are an obvious choice for many combinations.

    While on the negative side, the monk needs a good reason to delay ASI and ki progression. The wizard has the strongest spell list, so needs a good reason to be avoiding that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    I'm AFB, but if I recall, In regards to Unarmored Defense when multiclassing is determined by the order of which class grants it first.

    While the name of the feature is same, they are not exactly the same, as funny as it may seem to be.

    Barbarian's Unarmored Defense: 10+Dex+Con+Shield (if available)
    vs.
    Monk's Unarmored Defense:
    10+Dex+Wis (doesn't work with shield)

    While not a direct answer to the question, this might provide a clue to why the pictures are different.
    In regards to the barbarian/monk differences. The breakdown assumes you'll probably only have one class with 5+ levels to avoid doubling up on extra attack. If barbarian is that class, you will struggle to make use of monk abilities with uses that scale directly with ki, and might be missing out on the amazing feature of stunning strike. If monk is primary class, you get most of the strength of barbarian in just 1-4 levels and can have the ki to support your flurries and stuns.

    As for the picture differences... well there is no long form logic on those. Just gut feelings that I felt fit as best as I could find with some google image search in 10 minutes or so. Due to the number of entries, I had to continually urge myself on to get this project done, and settle on pictures to keep it going. Some of them aren't the best. /shrug They hopefully get the idea across, or best case scenario, inspire players to try new things.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Interesting analysis, I generally did my best to optimize each combination and just rated it on how viable/easy/optimal that combination was, without regard to the bigger picture. It does make sense that those classes that require only one 13 in a stat that is a common save (dex or wis) are an obvious choice for many combinations.

    While on the negative side, the monk needs a good reason to delay ASI and ki progression. The wizard has the strongest spell list, so needs a good reason to be avoiding that.



    In regards to the barbarian/monk differences. The breakdown assumes you'll probably only have one class with 5+ levels to avoid doubling up on extra attack. If barbarian is that class, you will struggle to make use of monk abilities with uses that scale directly with ki, and might be missing out on the amazing feature of stunning strike. If monk is primary class, you get most of the strength of barbarian in just 1-4 levels and can have the ki to support your flurries and stuns.

    As for the picture differences... well there is no long form logic on those. Just gut feelings that I felt fit as best as I could find with some google image search in 10 minutes or so. Due to the number of entries, I had to continually urge myself on to get this project done, and settle on pictures to keep it going. Some of them aren't the best. /shrug They hopefully get the idea across, or best case scenario, inspire players to try new things.
    Yeah it does. Never ever would have considered 🙄 F1/Warlock X before reading this guide for my crazy extended family of Mountain Dwarf characters.

    Or my Pal 2/Bard X - looking for all those bad puns about - searing smite - “Hot Song, Riswynn,” and the like.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

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