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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I have a fighter that I'm thinking of multiclassing into barbarian after 5th level, so I read your analysis. What do you mean when you say GWM fighters can have "at will advantage"? I read the feat and it doesn't say that anywhere. Very confused.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    I have a fighter that I'm thinking of multiclassing into barbarian after 5th level, so I read your analysis. What do you mean when you say GWM fighters can have "at will advantage"? I read the feat and it doesn't say that anywhere. Very confused.
    At level 2, Barbarian gets Reckless Attack, which allows them to have advantage on their first strength based attack that turn, but all attacks against them have advantage as well. This is a really popular combo with GWM as it helps to curb the -5 to hit.
    Last edited by KOLE; 2018-03-24 at 10:11 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Ah, I thought it had something to do with the feat, since he specified GWM. But Reckless Attack grants that to all STR attacks, right?

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Reckless attack grants advantage at will. Which is particularly important to gwm fights because it allows them to counteract the -5 to hit from using that aspect of the feat.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Too bad my guy is a sword and shield fighter.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quick question. The description for Bard/Barbarian lists it as black, but the header and chart lists it as purple. Is there a reason for this or is it a mistake?
    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Even if they don't have a Reaction, they can now talk through "brief utterances", which certainly includes stuff like "Help!", "Assassin!!", or "AAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!"

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    Quick question. The description for Bard/Barbarian lists it as black, but the header and chart lists it as purple. Is there a reason for this or is it a mistake?
    A mistake. I'm guessing I changed the rating in the entry with the release of the Swords Bard, but forgot to update the chart. Black seems the best fit, as it's MAD but not the worst dip if you plan to wade into melee. For any gish build that wants to dip barb it helps to think of rage as a concentration spell, a very strong one. It lasts for a minute, is usually harder to "break concentration" compared to a spell and is much stronger than any level 1 or 2 spell.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-04-08 at 09:45 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    I have a fighter that I'm thinking of multiclassing into barbarian after 5th level, so I read your analysis. What do you mean when you say GWM fighters can have "at will advantage"? I read the feat and it doesn't say that anywhere. Very confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    Too bad my guy is a sword and shield fighter.
    Is your fighter using heavy or medium armor? Because rage doesn't work great with heavy armor. For example, you won't be able to benefit from the bonus damage, advantage to strength checks and saving throws, and resistance to physical damage. But you will still suffer from all penalties of rage.

    That said, if you use medium armor, Reckless Attack is still great for you even though you use sword and shield. Reckless Attack makes you sticky/tanky because of that advantage to hit, but also a tempting target for your enemies, since they also get advantage on attack rolls against you when you use Reckless Attack. Combined with rage and shield you're still quite safe.
    Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Is your fighter using heavy or medium armor? Because rage doesn't work great with heavy armor. For example, you won't be able to benefit from the bonus damage, advantage to strength checks and saving throws, and resistance to physical damage. But you will still suffer from all penalties of rage.

    That said, if you use medium armor, Reckless Attack is still great for you even though you use sword and shield. Reckless Attack makes you sticky/tanky because of that advantage to hit, but also a tempting target for your enemies, since they also get advantage on attack rolls against you when you use Reckless Attack. Combined with rage and shield you're still quite safe.
    Right now he's using heavy (chainmail), but I plan on switching to medium (half-plate), which works out to the same AC but will allow him to rage.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    Right now he's using heavy (chainmail), but I plan on switching to medium (half-plate), which works out to the same AC but will allow him to rage.
    Then you're good.

    Although, a minor nitpick: it's not that heavy armor wouldn't allow you to rage, it's just that rage doesn't function as well in heavy armor as it does in medium armor or unarmored. But, as I said, it's a minor detail. Still, a detail worth mentioning, because if you read the Rules as they are written, some Barbarian sub-class features keep functioning normally in rage, regardless of the type of armor you use. Its the baseline rage that gets wonky with heavy armor.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2018-04-09 at 12:30 AM.
    Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I was thinking of making an Arcane Archer 15/War Wizard 5, picking up utility spells along the way. Is this advised or should I stick with Arcane X/WW 2? Thank you

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Which is better, Sorc5/Lock3 with Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, or Sorc5/Lock2 and take Ritual Caster with the ASI?

    Also, which metamagics are best for this build?

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by RoseTheLesbian View Post
    I was thinking of making an Arcane Archer 15/War Wizard 5, picking up utility spells along the way. Is this advised or should I stick with Arcane X/WW 2? Thank you
    I don't plan for level 20 builds. Play what you want on each level up. Arcane Archer is a bit dull in practice with just two arrows per short rest, so you might have more fun picking up the wizard levels. Personally I'd think if you aren't going for 4 attacks as a fighter, you might as well get some wizard spells that are useful like haste or counterspell. Gauge your party/DM and see how often you take fight after fight without short rest. In my experience it isn't often, especially at high level play. That means arcane archer 15 is pretty worthless so fighter 11 (or 12 for ASI) is your best breakpoint leaving the rest to wizard. If you're short on ASIs you can go more fighter, but more wizard levels will ultimately add more I'd think.

    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    Which is better, Sorc5/Lock3 with Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, or Sorc5/Lock2 and take Ritual Caster with the ASI?

    Also, which metamagics are best for this build?
    I typically say don't go past two levels in warlock unless you want to take more. A sorc 5/lock 3 is only going to have an 18 cha assuming normal point buy. You'll be best suited from there to take that fourth warlock level and boost it to 20, then you'll be best suited to get those 3rd level slots and another invocation from warlock 5. Either cut warlock off at 2 or expect to take it to 5.

    Personally I don't value the book of ancient secrets so much. It is keyed off of warlock level, so if you don't go above 3rd level in warlock you can only have up to level 2 rituals in it. It's a lot of resources to invest into a feature that several other classes can mimic at least in part. I'd avoid the warlock trap, and stay sorcerer, maxing cha before taking any feat. After that its fair game if you want to ritual cast via the feat, as it can net those higher level rituals.

    As for metamagics, definitely quicken for the double eldritch blast. Other than that, it's really to taste. Twin is the popular choice, for things like twinning haste, but losing concentration on that can lose a fight.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-04-15 at 09:43 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
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    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I appreciate the effort that went into this guide, but I'm skeptical of any build suggestions that pair 8 str and medium or heavy armor. Every DM I know would raise an eyebrow at this level of min/maxing and apply the variant encumbrance rules. You're then looking at significant penalties to your capabilities in combat. If your DM lets you get away with this, more power to you, but such suggestions have more than a little whiff of bs to them.

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaliayev View Post
    I appreciate the effort that went into this guide, but I'm skeptical of any build suggestions that pair 8 str and medium or heavy armor. Every DM I know would raise an eyebrow at this level of min/maxing and apply the variant encumbrance rules. You're then looking at significant penalties to your capabilities in combat. If your DM lets you get away with this, more power to you, but such suggestions have more than a little whiff of bs to them.
    I rarely suggest pairing an 8 str with heavy armor as it causes a movement speed penalty. As for medium armor, you can carry 15 lbs per str point by default rules. That’s 120 lbs for an 8 str so plenty enough to carry that armor. If your DM uses other encumbrance rules than you may need to adjust. This is an optimization guide based on RAW, so it will attempt to be optimal within those parameters. If str is one of your dump stats you simply don’t need it for encumbrance in 5e.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I rarely suggest pairing an 8 str with heavy armor as it causes a movement speed penalty. As for medium armor, you can carry 15 lbs per str point by default rules. That’s 120 lbs for an 8 str so plenty enough to carry that armor. If your DM uses other encumbrance rules than you may need to adjust. This is an optimization guide based on RAW, so it will attempt to be optimal within those parameters. If str is one of your dump stats you simply don’t need it for encumbrance in 5e.
    Quite a few of your cleric-based multi-classing suggestions, be they cleric primary or cleric dipping, treat str as an 8 point dump stat while exploiting the heavy armor proficiency grab. If we're really going RAW and disregarding all variant rules within PHB, then the point buy system should be disregarded as well. That leaves players with the basic spread or rolling. AL can be incredibly silly at times.

    p.s. Variant encumbrance is on page 176 of PHB.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaliayev View Post
    Quite a few of your cleric-based multi-classing suggestions, be they cleric primary or cleric dipping, treat str as an 8 point dump stat while exploiting the heavy armor proficiency grab. If we're really going RAW and disregarding all variant rules within PHB, then the point buy system should be disregarded as well. That leaves players with the basic spread or rolling. AL can be incredibly silly at times.

    p.s. Variant encumbrance is on page 176 of PHB.
    I did mention that the guide makes basic AL assumptions so adjust as necessary. It’s right there in the Guidelines section. There is far too much variability to account for every option of character creation and every optional rule. AL rules are just a good baseline. All D&D rules are silly oversimplifications that make the game playable. If you cannot adjust any useful takeaways for your own game that’s unfortunate, but to call it an error in the guide when it openly states the parameters... is silly.

    Without going back and looking, I’d guess most of my 8 str plate wearers are dwarves so it negates the movement speed penalty.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-04-16 at 10:36 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I did mention that the guide makes basic AL assumptions so adjust as necessary. It’s right there in the Guidelines section. There is far too much variability to account for every option of character creation and every optional rule. AL rules are just a good baseline. All D&D rules are silly oversimplifications that make the game playable. If you cannot adjust any useful takeaways for your own game that’s unfortunate, but to call it an error in the guide when it openly states the parameters... is silly.

    Without going back and looking, I’d guess most of my 8 str plate wearers are dwarves so it negates the movement speed penalty.
    From what I can tell, most of them are half-elf or variant human. Like I said, I appreciate the guide. For a lot of the combinations, it's spot on, even with the instances of triple stat dumping. It's the heavy armor and 8 str combo suggestions that I find problematic. Even in AL, a lot of PCs will take a speed hit with that combination. AL's selectivity with variant, optional, and RAW often strikes me as silly. AL will take the variant point buy and optional feats, and disregard a number of the other variant and optional rules that offer more realistic rping.

    Outside of AL, players should assume that variant encumbrance is on the table when making and leveling a character. A character with a str dump stat and heavy armor can quickly find themselves in the position of losing 20 feet in speed and being at disadvantage with all str, dex, and con rolls, even if they drop their pack prior to a fight. It's not a pretty sight.

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaliayev View Post
    From what I can tell, most of them are half-elf or variant human. Like I said, I appreciate the guide. For a lot of the combinations, it's spot on, even with the instances of triple stat dumping. It's the heavy armor and 8 str combo suggestions that I find problematic. Even in AL, a lot of PCs will take a speed hit with that combination. AL's selectivity with variant, optional, and RAW often strikes me as silly. AL will take the variant point buy and optional feats, and disregard a number of the other variant and optional rules that offer more realistic rping.
    I think you may be misinterpreting what I am saying... In several of the builds I mention that a strength build for heavy armor is an option, but list a dex based build intending to wear medium armor. I would not suggest wearing heavy armor without some way of counteracting the movement speed penalty, or in some very niche build. Some of the classes are so hard to combine with point buy stats that you just have to make sacrifices.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-04-16 at 04:18 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
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    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Personally I don't value the book of ancient secrets so much. It is keyed off of warlock level, so if you don't go above 3rd level in warlock you can only have up to level 2 rituals in it. It's a lot of resources to invest into a feature that several other classes can mimic at least in part. I'd avoid the warlock trap, and stay sorcerer, maxing cha before taking any feat. After that its fair game if you want to ritual cast via the feat, as it can net those higher level rituals.
    What about Elemental Adept? He's a Draconic Sorcerer (fire).

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    What about Elemental Adept? He's a Draconic Sorcerer (fire).
    Solid feat for blasters as slews of foes are resistant to fire. Make sure you keep some other damage type spells around for things like red dragons or devils.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
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    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Solid feat for blasters as slews of foes are resistant to fire. Make sure you keep some other damage type spells around for things like red dragons or devils.
    That was a reason to take Warlock levels. I think I agree with you, though. Two are enough. I just kind of wanted a familiar.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Telesphoros View Post
    Hey PeteNutButter, thanks for the guide, quite handy.

    I'm having a problem understanding something under the Bard/Cleric entry. You say: "The common life cleric 1/lore bard 6+ is now more or less obsolete with the introduction of Healing Spirit spell."

    Why is that? Wouldn't this multiclass take Healing Spirits for their Magical Secrets at level 6 Lore Bard instead of Goodberry or Aura of Vitality, making it an even stonger build than before? What am I missing?
    It isn't entirely obsolete, just that taking aura of vitality combined with lore bard 6 was a big way to boost healing, but healing spirit is easier to get without bard and doesn't always require a bonus action. The strength of the lore bard/life cleric was grabbing a paladin spell before even the paladin could get it.

    Healing spirit is a better spell that is faster to get through druid (or even ranger for that matter) than through 6 levels in bard. All that combined, means a dream druid/life cleric is probably the best healer in the game now, knocking off the lore bard 6+/life cleric 1. The bard still has perks though, like being able to grab one solid offensive magical secret (and more later), as well as potentially wearing metal armor without running into DM issues as a druid would. One massive point for the druid/cleric is it's all wisdom making him SAD.

    As soon as level 4 he is casting Healing Spirit for 1d6+4 all fight long, and potentially having the party tonga line through what's left post-fight. I've cast Healing Spirit with a 7th level slot, and didn't regret it one bit. If I had a life cleric level on my druid it'd be 6d6+9... That's too much healing. Park that on the tank and the baddies have to deal more than 30 damage a round to just get through the sustain.

    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    That was a reason to take Warlock levels. I think I agree with you, though. Two are enough. I just kind of wanted a familiar.
    They are solid. Get a ring of spell storing and make the wizard cast it into it.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-04-16 at 08:01 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
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    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    UA Cleric of Order (UA)/* any of Bard, Warlock or Wizard with the puppet (UA - starting spell) spell.
    Comes online from 2nd level, puppet allows the caster to move the target its full move (no action) if it fails a CON save.

    * Target your allies and get them to purposely fail their save
    * You get to move them, and then they get a free attack using their reaction

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I

    They are solid. Get a ring of spell storing and make the wizard cast it into it.
    A ring of spell storing? What's that? And where would I find one? By the way, this is an AL character, if that makes any difference.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    A ring of spell storing? What's that? And where would I find one? By the way, this is an AL character, if that makes any difference.
    It's a magic item from the DMG. There are like 4 different AL adventures that have it, and I think 2 are in the Tales from Yawning Portal. It helps if you DM every now and again. If there is some chase item I'm after I use my DM quests to give my character a magic item, but that requires a total of 24 hours of DMing (basically 8 sessions).
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    It's a magic item from the DMG. There are like 4 different AL adventures that have it, and I think 2 are in the Tales from Yawning Portal. It helps if you DM every now and again. If there is some chase item I'm after I use my DM quests to give my character a magic item, but that requires a total of 24 hours of DMing (basically 8 sessions).
    Yeah, I don't DM. I barely have enough time to play!

    Just wanted to check, do you endorse the 'Strive for Five' idea? Have, at least, 5 levels before multiclassing?
    Last edited by quark12000; 2018-04-19 at 03:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    Yeah, I don't DM. I barely have enough time to play!

    Just wanted to check, do you endorse the 'Strive for Five' idea? Have, at least, 5 levels before multiclassing?
    Not really. It might be optimal, but I’m impatient and like getting an idea online as soon as possible. I’ve just embraced that I never get extra attack until 6th at the earliest. In the case of warlocks specifically, it’s not so bad to MC early as a 5th character can eldritch blast just fine provided they have those 2 warlock levels. You’ll regret not having 3rd level spells for a level or two but can still Cantrip about as hard as any martial can attack.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Not really. It might be optimal, but I’m impatient and like getting an idea online as soon as possible. I’ve just embraced that I never get extra attack until 6th at the earliest. In the case of warlocks specifically, it’s not so bad to MC early as a 5th character can eldritch blast just fine provided they have those 2 warlock levels. You’ll regret not having 3rd level spells for a level or two but can still Cantrip about as hard as any martial can attack.
    I get it. But, in AL at least, you kind of need those 3rd level spells when you get to tier 2 play. I plan on getting 5 levels of sorcerer and then taking the two levels of warlock, then back to finish up as a sorcerer. I'm at level 3 with him now, but soon to go to 4. I need that ASI, man! So I can't do it then.

    Would you advise going 4 levels of sorcerer and then take the two warlock levels? That would mean waiting until character level 7 to get the potent third level spells.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by quark12000 View Post
    I get it. But, in AL at least, you kind of need those 3rd level spells when you get to tier 2 play. I plan on getting 5 levels of sorcerer and then taking the two levels of warlock, then back to finish up as a sorcerer. I'm at level 3 with him now, but soon to go to 4. I need that ASI, man! So I can't do it then.

    Would you advise going 4 levels of sorcerer and then take the two warlock levels? That would mean waiting until character level 7 to get the potent third level spells.
    If you’re going to go to sorcerer 4 for the ASI, which is reasonable, you might as well take it to 5 first. Remember in AL you can change your character around between sessions, so you might want to try a session as 2/2 once you’re level 4.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

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