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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Longtime GitP reader, first time commenter.

    First, bravo on such a wonderfully put and detailed guide on a highly sought out and controversial subject. I'm equally impressed by your accomplishment and grateful for this source!

    I skimmed the rest of the comments to make sure these wasn't already bought up, but I noticed a something I thought worth mentioning.

    Since you mentioned using AL lass a baseline (and this is a particularly important thing for multiclassing), I couldn't help but notice that some of the examples you mention break the PHB + 1 rule for character creation.

    Random Examples:
    "Half Elf
    Hexblade 5/Death Cleric 6+
    8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 17"

    Since Hexblade is XGtE, and Death Cleric is DMG, they cannot be combined (according to AL).

    Even cantrips cannot cross the threshold:
    "Human
    Forge Cleric 8/War Wizard 2
    16, 9, 14, 13, 16, 9

    This build is a MADness struggle, but it isn't without it's perks. Booming Blade with a decent str score and the divine strike damage give it at decent at will melee capability..."

    While both Forge cleric and War Wizard are XGtE, according to PHB + 1, no build can have access to BB or GFB if any part of their build comes from anything outside PHB + SCAG (if playing AL).

    BB and GFB are incredible for many builds, but by AL, most cannot access it. This is especially important if you're building a Sorcadin. If you want BB/GFB both your Oath and Bloodline must come from PHB or SCAG.

    I myself was very disappointed when I bought my
    "Human V.
    Fighter 1/Forge Cleric 6+
    16, 10, 14, 8, 16, 8
    Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade" - Melee Cleric to the table only to have the PHB + 1 rule pointed out.

    I ended up switching it to:
    "Human V.
    Paladin 2/Tempest Cleric 6+
    16, 8, 14, 8, 14, 13
    Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade"

    And still, while both classes are PHB, just having the cantrips from SCAG bar me from having any spells from XGtE or EE (according to AL).

    Um.. I've rambled so much that I actually have no idea how to close this. I guess, if you're playing AL this is big, and if not then it's nothing.

    Hope I didn't waste anyone's time.
    The end.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    What is AL?

    Sorry if this is a dumb question.

    Never mind, I googled it.
    Last edited by Jrpergande78; 2018-06-02 at 04:23 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by IskandarGreat View Post
    Longtime GitP reader, first time commenter.

    First, bravo on such a wonderfully put and detailed guide on a highly sought out and controversial subject. I'm equally impressed by your accomplishment and grateful for this source!

    I skimmed the rest of the comments to make sure these wasn't already bought up, but I noticed a something I thought worth mentioning.

    Since you mentioned using AL lass a baseline (and this is a particularly important thing for multiclassing), I couldn't help but notice that some of the examples you mention break the PHB + 1 rule for character creation.

    Random Examples:
    "Half Elf
    Hexblade 5/Death Cleric 6+
    8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 17"

    Since Hexblade is XGtE, and Death Cleric is DMG, they cannot be combined (according to AL).

    Even cantrips cannot cross the threshold:
    "Human
    Forge Cleric 8/War Wizard 2
    16, 9, 14, 13, 16, 9

    This build is a MADness struggle, but it isn't without it's perks. Booming Blade with a decent str score and the divine strike damage give it at decent at will melee capability..."

    While both Forge cleric and War Wizard are XGtE, according to PHB + 1, no build can have access to BB or GFB if any part of their build comes from anything outside PHB + SCAG (if playing AL).

    BB and GFB are incredible for many builds, but by AL, most cannot access it. This is especially important if you're building a Sorcadin. If you want BB/GFB both your Oath and Bloodline must come from PHB or SCAG.

    I myself was very disappointed when I bought my
    "Human V.
    Fighter 1/Forge Cleric 6+
    16, 10, 14, 8, 16, 8
    Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade" - Melee Cleric to the table only to have the PHB + 1 rule pointed out.

    I ended up switching it to:
    "Human V.
    Paladin 2/Tempest Cleric 6+
    16, 8, 14, 8, 14, 13
    Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade"

    And still, while both classes are PHB, just having the cantrips from SCAG bar me from having any spells from XGtE or EE (according to AL).

    Um.. I've rambled so much that I actually have no idea how to close this. I guess, if you're playing AL this is big, and if not then it's nothing.

    Hope I didn't waste anyone's time.
    The end.
    Good catch. I ended up using a lot of different things just to keep the variety going. You can only make so many variant humans...

    The Death Cleric one is a unique issue though as you cannot normally use the death cleric and need either a cert or a DM quest, neither would prevent you from using a different book as your +1.

    As you've found in your own case, there is usually a similar and equally strong option available in the PHB so you can get the best thing you want out of the build. I still dislike the +1 rule, but it can be worked around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrpergande78 View Post
    The idea is to take advantage of the Gloomstaker's first move ability on the first turn. On the next turn cast darkness on self and from that point take advantage of not being seen even in the day.
    Hmm. It could work. Looks to be a case of combining two strong things that don't work together in any special way. Gloomstalker has no interaction with the darkness spell since normal darkvison can't see through it anyways. It'd be easier to just skip ranger and go fighter.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-06-03 at 12:30 AM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    The Death Cleric one is a unique issue though as you cannot normally use the death cleric and need either a cert or a DM quest, neither would prevent you from using a different book as your +1.
    I had no idea. I'm still pretty new to 5e. (Just started my second campaign. Haven't played anything since late 3.5, early Pathfinder)I haven't had a desire to try anything from the DMG, nor known those who have. Just thought it was another resource book.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    As you've found in your own case, there is usually a similar and equally strong option available in the PHB so you can get the best thing you want out of the build.
    I hate that you're mostly right about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    I still dislike the +1 rule, but it can be worked around.
    From what I've been made to understand, the reason for it is that when coming out with new material, they only balance it against the PHB, and not other source books. So while they're all supposedly balanced with PHB, they're not necessarily balanced with each other, and people like us will play Frankenstein until we've created a monster.

    I too greatly dislike the PHB +1 rule , but I get why they do it, I guess, grudgingly.

  5. - Top - End - #245
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by IskandarGreat View Post
    people like us will play Frankenstein until we've created a monster.
    They aren't wrong ;)

  6. - Top - End - #246
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Hi, I am new here. I am sorry if this is the wrong place to post character concept. If it is, you can give your thoughts about the multiclass combination, and disregard the fluff.

    I just started playing D&D after 20 years pause, and as an old powerplayer, I started looking for ways to customize a premade Halfling Rogue (we were 5 players, not much time to create one from scratch).

    Even though I emphasize roleplaying opportunities, I would like feedback if this build can also work strategically.

    This is what I envision:

    Cold Facts:
    Main Class: Rogue - Scout, Mastermind or Swashbuckler (which of these would fit best?)
    3 Warlock - GOO and Pact of the blade (GFB to boost damage)
    3 Fighter - Eldritch Knight to get multiclass spell table lvl 4 (4xlvl 1 spells and 3xlvl 2 spells+ pact magic and invocations). Second Wind, Defense and Action Surge will all help the rogue survive and deal extra damage.
    Bonus: I will have one Pact Weapon and 2 Bound Weapons available, perfect for a sneaky halfling infiltrator.
    Option to take either fighter(extra attack) or warlock(thirsting blade) to 5th in order to get 2 attacks (Mastermind grants one extra attack at lvl 17 Rogue, but I may never get that far).

    At Lvl 20 total I will have something like: Deceptive Rogue 12/Bladepact Warlock 5/Eldritch Knight 3 (4/3/3 spell slots + Pact Magic and invocations)

    RPG aspect:
    The rogue was attempted murdered (Glasstaff, no spoilers please), and I intend to play out the warlock gradually (puking leeches and such). I imagine he was in limbo/bardo and by some disturbance of the planes, he was tainted by the GOO. I hope to get a chance to use Arms of Hadar for revealing my warlock lvl. Thoughts about Warlock spells: (Infestation), Mind Spike, Hex, Devils sight.

    If he gets too OP, he can go corrupt and get drawn into another dimension (taking an enemy with him ofc..)
    Last edited by Sir Stig; 2018-06-13 at 08:58 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stig View Post
    Hi, I am new here. I am sorry if this is the wrong place to post character concept. If it is, you can give your thoughts about the multiclass combination, and disregard the fluff.

    I just started playing D&D after 20 years pause, and as an old powerplayer, I started looking for ways to customize a premade Halfling Rogue (we were 5 players, not much time to create one from scratch).

    Even though I emphasize roleplaying opportunities, I would like feedback if this build can also work strategically.

    This is what I envision:

    Cold Facts:
    Main Class: Rogue - Scout, Mastermind or Swashbuckler (which of these would fit best?)
    3 Warlock - GOO and Pact of the blade (GFB to boost damage)
    3 Fighter - Eldritch Knight to get multiclass spell table lvl 4 (4xlvl 1 spells and 3xlvl 2 spells+ pact magic and invocations). Second Wind, Defense and Action Surge will all help the rogue survive and deal extra damage.
    Bonus: I will have one Pact Weapon and 2 Bound Weapons available, perfect for a sneaky halfling infiltrator.
    Option to take either fighter(extra attack) or warlock(thirsting blade) to 5th in order to get 2 attacks (Mastermind grants one extra attack at lvl 17 Rogue, but I may never get that far).

    At Lvl 20 total I will have something like: Deceptive Rogue 12/Bladepact Warlock 5/Eldritch Knight 3 (4/3/3 spell slots + Pact Magic and invocations)

    RPG aspect:
    The rogue was attempted murdered (Glasstaff, no spoilers please), and I intend to play out the warlock gradually (puking leeches and such). I imagine he was in limbo/bardo and by some disturbance of the planes, he was tainted by the GOO. I hope to get a chance to use Arms of Hadar for revealing my warlock lvl. Thoughts about Warlock spells: (Infestation), Mind Spike, Hex, Devils sight.

    If he gets too OP, he can go corrupt and get drawn into another dimension (taking an enemy with him ofc..)
    Probably best if you start a new thread for a specific character idea.

    From an optimization standpoint, battle master is usually a chase fighter subclass for rogue MCs as Riposte allows a character to sneak attack twice a round (once on your turn, and once on another person's turn). Of the mentioned subclasses for rogue, swashbuckler is probably the best. If you really want some long rest spells you'd probably be best to do arcane trickster and take the fighter levels as battle master.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stig View Post
    3 Warlock - GOO and Pact of the blade (GFB to boost damage)
    3 Fighter - Eldritch Knight to get multiclass spell table lvl 4 (4xlvl 1 spells and 3xlvl 2 spells+ pact magic and invocations). Second Wind, Defense and Action Surge will all help the rogue survive and deal extra damage.
    Bonus: I will have one Pact Weapon and 2 Bound Weapons available, perfect for a sneaky halfling infiltrator.
    Option to take either fighter(extra attack) or warlock(thirsting blade) to 5th in order to get 2 attacks (Mastermind grants one extra attack at lvl 17 Rogue, but I may never get that far).

    At Lvl 20 total I will have something like: Deceptive Rogue 12/Bladepact Warlock 5/Eldritch Knight 3 (4/3/3 spell slots + Pact Magic and invocations)

    RPG aspect:
    The rogue was attempted murdered (Glasstaff, no spoilers please), and I intend to play out the warlock gradually (puking leeches and such). I imagine he was in limbo/bardo and by some disturbance of the planes, he was tainted by the GOO. I hope to get a chance to use Arms of Hadar for revealing my warlock lvl. Thoughts about Warlock spells: (Infestation), Mind Spike, Hex, Devils sight.

    If he gets too OP, he can go corrupt and get drawn into another dimension (taking an enemy with him ofc..)
    Pact Magic and the Spellcasting feature don't stack. Three levels in Eldritch Knight will only net you 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spell slots that recharge on a Long Rest. So with that Level 20 build your spellslots will be 2(LR)/-/2(SR).

    If you go with Arcane Trickster as suggested by Pete, then you will be able to hit that spell casting mark(level 5 combined spellcaster).

  9. - Top - End - #249
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAsWritten View Post
    Pact Magic and the Spellcasting feature don't stack. Three levels in Eldritch Knight will only net you 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spell slots that recharge on a Long Rest. So with that Level 20 build your spellslots will be 2(LR)/-/2(SR).

    If you go with Arcane Trickster as suggested by Pete, then you will be able to hit that spell casting mark(level 5 combined spellcaster).
    Aha! I missed a beat.

    He is high on Dex and Cha, medium INT, so the arcane trickster is meh...
    Back to the think tank. I think I might as well start a new thread when I refine the concept, since my brilliant idea had holes in it :) Thank you (and Pete) for your input.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by RMcD View Post
    Well you could always start a new thread and reserve more posts for yourself.



    Why would monks be duellist? They can't even use a shield so there's no reason not to use two weapons no? And if they were wielding a single weapon well it'd be a heavy one not a one hander.

    Wouldn't two weapon fighting be the classic monk? Two fists afterall.
    It's in the text that monk weapons can be whatever the DM will allow. So, DM willing a monk swashbuckler (open fist most likely) can have unarmored defense, high resistance to all magic, a rapier, fisticuffs, and amazing physical stunts all in one package.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I was reading the warlock guides and thought of a build for the rogue dip for a warlock main.

    I think as it stands, the color for the build is fine, but I think a 3 lvl dip for swashbuckler is worth mentioning.
    It allows the player to add their charisma modifier to initiative, mixing with the high dex a rogue requires gives the player a pretty good initiative, plus almost all warlocks require maxing charisma. Additionally, swashbuckler gives extra conditions for using sneak attack, and anyone you hit with a melee attack can't make an AoO against you, all at lvl 3 rogue.

    Although, this slows warlock pretty heavily, a halfelf 3/swashbuckler 1/warlock would have a +6 initiative and deal 3D6 with either a shortsword or short bow.

    The best part though, you can choose any patron or boon and this would still work well. Although, I find archfey, fiend, and hexblade to be the most powerful. Archfey for charm and greater invisibility, and fiend and hexblade for damage and survivability.

    Needless to say, I still think the color is appropriate, but maybe a mention to the synergy of swashbuckler?

  12. - Top - End - #252
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Hey I was just wondering what do you think of a ranger/hunter 6+ with the fighter/battlemaster 4 multiclass using colossus slayer would you think that would be a strong build?

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran0100 View Post
    Hey I was just wondering what do you think of a ranger/hunter 6+ with the fighter/battlemaster 4 multiclass using colossus slayer would you think that would be a strong build?
    How high are you planning to take this character? 10? 20? Ranged or melee oriented?
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    PaladinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran0100 View Post
    Hey I was just wondering what do you think of a ranger/hunter 6+ with the fighter/battlemaster 4 multiclass using colossus slayer would you think that would be a strong build?
    Mixing four levels of any extra attack class with another is generally strong, with the exception of MAD cases such as ranger/paladin. The subclass features in particular are usually quite potent.

    That said, I'm not a big fan of Colossus Slayer. Unless you are using a 2-handed melee weapon, a rogue dip can net more damage via sneak attack. By comparison, I think Horde Breaker is extremely powerful as it is one of the only ways to add more attacks to your action economy, and comes up quite often. You can even mix it with pushing attack from said battlemaster in case enemies don't want to cooperate and be adjacent.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Been working on a Hexblade/Samurai build with the core idea being that once you have Pact of the Blade you have the use of Elven Accuracy alongside GWM.

    Especially if you use Hexblade's Curse on the first turn of combat, second turn you can nova pretty hard with Fighting Spirit -> Super Advantage GWM hits that crit on 19-20 and do 2d6+Cha+Prof+10 (GWM)+1 (Improved Pact Weapon) damage on each of 4 attacks (w/ Action Surge).

    Scales pretty heavily with higher levels, too, but turns online "fully" at level 9 (Fighter 6/Warlock 3). It's not the most amazing build ever, but I think access to Elven Accuracy+GWM this reliably (bonus action activation) is somewhat unique to the Samurai/Hexblade multiclass.

    Half Elf with [8 Str / 13 (14) Dex / 15 (16) Con / 10 Int / 10 Wis / 15 (17) Cha] point buy

    You can probably dump the Int to 8, but I like having it for skill checks and there's not another specific half feat that I think is worthwhile unless you go level 1 Warlock, in which case Resilient (Con) makes dumping Int more appealing.


    EDIT: Unsure of high level build version. I think you want a minimum of 12 in Fighter for Extra Attack x2 and the following ASI, but probably at least 15 for Swift Strike as well. Not sure if Warlock 5 for 3rd level spells and Eldritch Smite is more worthwhile than the extra ASI if you go Fighter 16/Warlock 4, though my gut says it probably is so Samurai 15/Warlock 5 seems reasonable.

    Other benefits of the build are medium armor, pretty solid max HP and plenty of ASIs at later levels for interesting feat combos: GWM, Elven Accuracy, and +2 Cha being the most important, but Sentinel, Warcaster and Medium Armor Master being on the table too (might swap Dex and Con point buy if aiming for Medium Armor Master).

    Oh and the fact that it's PHB+1 legal is nice if that matters to anyone.
    Last edited by ciarannihill; 2018-06-21 at 03:37 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Bard dipping Cleric should ST be 8 and not 9? Or did I mess up the math?
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ciarannihill View Post
    Been working on a Hexblade/Samurai build with the core idea being that once you have Pact of the Blade you have the use of Elven Accuracy alongside GWM.

    Especially if you use Hexblade's Curse on the first turn of combat, second turn you can nova pretty hard with Fighting Spirit -> Super Advantage GWM hits that crit on 19-20 and do 2d6+Cha+Prof+10 (GWM)+1 (Improved Pact Weapon) damage on each of 4 attacks (w/ Action Surge).

    Scales pretty heavily with higher levels, too, but turns online "fully" at level 9 (Fighter 6/Warlock 3). It's not the most amazing build ever, but I think access to Elven Accuracy+GWM this reliably (bonus action activation) is somewhat unique to the Samurai/Hexblade multiclass.

    Half Elf with [8 Str / 13 (14) Dex / 15 (16) Con / 10 Int / 10 Wis / 15 (17) Cha] point buy

    You can probably dump the Int to 8, but I like having it for skill checks and there's not another specific half feat that I think is worthwhile unless you go level 1 Warlock, in which case Resilient (Con) makes dumping Int more appealing.


    EDIT: Unsure of high level build version. I think you want a minimum of 12 in Fighter for Extra Attack x2 and the following ASI, but probably at least 15 for Swift Strike as well. Not sure if Warlock 5 for 3rd level spells and Eldritch Smite is more worthwhile than the extra ASI if you go Fighter 16/Warlock 4, though my gut says it probably is so Samurai 15/Warlock 5 seems reasonable.

    Other benefits of the build are medium armor, pretty solid max HP and plenty of ASIs at later levels for interesting feat combos: GWM, Elven Accuracy, and +2 Cha being the most important, but Sentinel, Warcaster and Medium Armor Master being on the table too (might swap Dex and Con point buy if aiming for Medium Armor Master).

    Oh and the fact that it's PHB+1 legal is nice if that matters to anyone.
    Pretty cool. Definitely go for a Ronin feel. I'm not crazy about the limited uses the samurai gets, but it could work. I'd probably start fighter for con saves and heavy armor, dump int and dex to have the 15 str for wearing plate. Then again I'm an AC glutton.

    High level isn't really my concern, but I'd rush samurai 5/warlock 3 split then carry the fighter until 15, because that feature is too damned good. Probably 15/5.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    Bard dipping Cleric should ST be 8 and not 9? Or did I mess up the math?
    If you put the racial boosts in con and dex you end up with a spare point I threw in str.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Pretty cool. Definitely go for a Ronin feel. I'm not crazy about the limited uses the samurai gets, but it could work. I'd probably start fighter for con saves and heavy armor, dump int and dex to have the 15 str for wearing plate. Then again I'm an AC glutton.

    High level isn't really my concern, but I'd rush samurai 5/warlock 3 split then carry the fighter until 15, because that feature is too damned good. Probably 15/5.



    If you put the racial boosts in con and dex you end up with a spare point I threw in str.
    Ah, you usually seem to avoid multiple odd numbered stats so I was confused, thanks.
    I play AL games only nowdays.

    Preferences: Role play over optimization; Dwarf over Gnome over Variant Human; War games over FRPG; Zorro over Batman over everyone else.

    The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and fighting by fools.

    Charles George Gordon
    1833-1885

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    I very strongly disagree with the Monk/Wizard being best avoided that I just had to make a forum account. Take the way of the open hand, and two levels in wizard for divination's portent. You will be able to guarantee a quivering palm kill like that. An instant guaranteed kill is not best avoided.
    Last edited by Tora; 2018-06-26 at 04:22 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #260
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Pretty cool. Definitely go for a Ronin feel. I'm not crazy about the limited uses the samurai gets, but it could work. I'd probably start fighter for con saves and heavy armor, dump int and dex to have the 15 str for wearing plate. Then again I'm an AC glutton.

    High level isn't really my concern, but I'd rush samurai 5/warlock 3 split then carry the fighter until 15, because that feature is too damned good. Probably 15/5.
    The saving grace is that once you hit Samurai 10 you get essentially 1 free nova per encounter, because if you roll initiative without a charge you get one for free.

    I went with Medium Armor and the thought of potentially Medium Armor Master mostly out of consideration for Stealth and other Dex based checks, but I can totally understand the logic of going with Heavy Armor for the early game survivability compared to medium armor. It has the secondary benefit of allowing use of a heavy weapon without needing Hex Warrior turned on for it, stat-wise. My initial plan was to either Sword and Board until you hit Warlock 3, or to use a Longsword two handed to allow Hex Warrior and Great Weapon Fighting to have an impact -- neither of which are necessarily ideal.
    The Strength dip also opens the possibility of Samurai 15/Warlock 3/Paladin 2 if you so choose, which gets you better AC (Defense Fighting Style), Lay on Hands, and Divine Smite along with extra slots to use for Smiting (but you do lose an ASI, which might be...less than ideal).

    Other side benefit to this combo is that you can use either Eldritch Blast OR a Blade Pact Longbow for ranged combat, depending on the enemy -- might even make it worth picking up Sharpshooter if you're greedy for Longbow usage.

    One other potential long term build could be Samurai 17/Hexblade 3 for the second use of Action Surge per rest -- potential to Nova twice in a single battle is potent.

    Other possible build thoughts that aren't fully formed, but might be interesting to dive into some more:
    • Zealot Barbarian dipping into Paladin and/or Fighter (and if Paladin going Fallen Aasimar) to grant itself non-spell self healing to make sure it never dies once it gets it's level 14 Archetype feature. It's a super late multiclass which is kind of against the ethos of this thread, but it's a nifty toolkit to make sure you're nigh unkillable while raging.
    • Bugbear Barbarian 2/Assassin Rogue X, eventually dipping into Battlemaster for Riposte and Extra Attack: Gets reach on Rapier, has solid AC, reduced damage while raging and Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage further. Plus if you're able to get a Surprise round you get 1d8+2d6+Sneak Attack+Str Mod+2 damage as an auto-crit.
    Last edited by ciarannihill; 2018-06-26 at 09:47 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Tora View Post
    I very strongly disagree with the Monk/Wizard being best avoided that I just had to make a forum account. Take the way of the open hand, and two levels in wizard for divination's portent. You will be able to guarantee a quivering palm kill like that. An instant guaranteed kill is not best avoided.
    As a general rule of thumb the guide isn't giving much to high level MCs. While it is a pretty cool gimmick at level 19, it is at level 19. The character in question will have to be short 5 point buy points to get that 13 int for the bulk of their career with absolutely no payoff. Even if you take the wizard levels right after monk 5 to try and secure stunning strikes, the character will be much weaker than a pure monk or a monk MC that isn't MAD (Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue). Monk being the most stat dependent class, those 5 points cost dearly in either AC or HP.

    To make matters worse, by that level any enemy that is worth using your 0-2 times a day gimmick (you might roll 2 high numbers for your portent) probably has legendary saves, making the whole thing pointless. Now it might be a fun character to play if you are playing a one shot at high level, but it is for the vast majority of cases, "probably best avoided."

    Red coloring is by no means unplayable. It just means you have to really work to make it function. I have played and will continue to play characters that are coded as red and purple on this guide, making use of edge case mechanics to coordinate something. That doesn't make those combinations any more viable for the majority of characters. Compare it to the higher rated MCs which are almost impossible to screw up.

    Red is mostly a warning of "enter at your own risk." I might tell the average person not to climb skyscrapers with their bare hands. Just because some parkour expert can do it, doesn't mean my advice is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciarannihill View Post
    The saving grace is that once you hit Samurai 10 you get essentially 1 free nova per encounter, because if you roll initiative without a charge you get one for free.

    I went with Medium Armor and the thought of potentially Medium Armor Master mostly out of consideration for Stealth and other Dex based checks, but I can totally understand the logic of going with Heavy Armor for the early game survivability compared to medium armor. It has the secondary benefit of allowing use of a heavy weapon without needing Hex Warrior turned on for it, stat-wise. My initial plan was to either Sword and Board until you hit Warlock 3, or to use a Longsword two handed to allow Hex Warrior and Great Weapon Fighting to have an impact -- neither of which are necessarily ideal.
    The Strength dip also opens the possibility of Samurai 15/Warlock 3/Paladin 2 if you so choose, which gets you better AC (Defense Fighting Style), Lay on Hands, and Divine Smite along with extra slots to use for Smiting (but you do lose an ASI, which might be...less than ideal).

    Other side benefit to this combo is that you can use either Eldritch Blast OR a Blade Pact Longbow for ranged combat, depending on the enemy -- might even make it worth picking up Sharpshooter if you're greedy for Longbow usage.

    One other potential long term build could be Samurai 17/Hexblade 3 for the second use of Action Surge per rest -- potential to Nova twice in a single battle is potent.

    Other possible build thoughts that aren't fully formed, but might be interesting to dive into some more:
    • Zealot Barbarian dipping into Paladin and/or Fighter (and if Paladin going Fallen Aasimar) to grant itself non-spell self healing to make sure it never dies once it gets it's level 14 Archetype feature. It's a super late multiclass which is kind of against the ethos of this thread, but it's a nifty toolkit to make sure you're nigh unkillable while raging.
    • Bugbear Barbarian 2/Assassin Rogue X, eventually dipping into Battlemaster for Riposte and Extra Attack: Gets reach on Rapier, has solid AC, reduced damage while raging and Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage further. Plus if you're able to get a Surprise round you get 1d8+2d6+Sneak Attack+Str Mod+2 damage as an auto-crit.
    The zealot is not only late, but probably not worth it. After you kill all the enemies, you can just drink a potion on your last turn before your rage ends. By that level the 50 gold potions should be pretty easy to come by.

    The Rage and Poke character is always solid. Taking a quarter damage on uncanny dodge attacks is silly good. I'd probably just take Barb 5/Rogue 15.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-06-26 at 02:24 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post

    A rogue who dips bard gains spells and skill boosts. This is one of the best ways to be an ultimate skill monkey with lore bard and loads of expertise. The cost is a bit of combat inefficiency, as both spells and sneak attack lag behind. Swords or whispers bard can be worth it for combat efficiency, but requires heavy investment (5) to get short rest recharge uses.

    Half Elf
    Swashbuckler 5+/Whispers 5
    8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16

    This Infiltrator has all the benefits of 5 levels in a full casting class and can act like a full rogue on sneak attack cha/short rest. Best used with TWF as a swashbuckler or with BB as a AT instead.
    This build is seem just right for a character I would like to build except how does TWF work with Whispers Bards? Don't they need to have a hand free for casting? I would like this to be an AL legal build.

    Great guide, this is my first foray into multiclassing.

  23. - Top - End - #263
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by mizd360 View Post
    This build is seem just right for a character I would like to build except how does TWF work with Whispers Bards? Don't they need to have a hand free for casting? I would like this to be an AL legal build.

    Great guide, this is my first foray into multiclassing.
    With a little juggling TWF isn't usually much of an issue with casting. The main issue occurs with reaction spells as you may not have a free hand to cast. Bards by default don't get Shield spell so it's not much of a concern. If you're really worried about it take the Warcaster feat.

    In my experience the Warcaster feat tax is mostly for S&B wielders as they want a weapon ready for opportunity attacks (so they can't just drop it) and it takes an action to don a shield. TWF by contrast is fine usually dropping a weapon, as you still have another in hand. Picking up/drawing a weapon is free once a turn.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Hey Pete, any advice on a Ranger/Druid multiclass other than the one you listed? Both your Ranger/Druid and Druid/Ranger involve taking shepherd Druid for Conjure Animals cheese, but my DM generally doesn't allow minionmancy. I was thinking of Ranger 5/Druid X for a more a robust, melee oriented nature Gish, using extra attack on a shillelagh and a shield in the other hand to stay survivable, but with much more spell slots than a standard ranger for some more spell casting utility. Probably pick up Resilient Con to boost HP and help maintain concentration on those potent Druid spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    I use these forums as my weak DnD crack replacement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rerem115 View Post
    Vicious Mockery: Adding injury to insult.
    My homebrew:
    The Hag Patron, a witch option for the 5e Warlock.
    Arcane Tradition of Universalism, a more generalist school for 5e Wizards.
    Circle of Ironwood, a true Gish option for the 5e Druid.

  25. - Top - End - #265
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    Hey Pete, any advice on a Ranger/Druid multiclass other than the one you listed? Both your Ranger/Druid and Druid/Ranger involve taking shepherd Druid for Conjure Animals cheese, but my DM generally doesn't allow minionmancy. I was thinking of Ranger 5/Druid X for a more a robust, melee oriented nature Gish, using extra attack on a shillelagh and a shield in the other hand to stay survivable, but with much more spell slots than a standard ranger for some more spell casting utility. Probably pick up Resilient Con to boost HP and help maintain concentration on those potent Druid spells.
    The Ranger Druid gets a little MAD if you want to be pure wisdom focused as your AC might not be great without metal armor (unless your DM allows for it). Hide or studded leather nets you at most a 17 AC using a shield to start with on point buy. If you really want to shillelagh and be in melee its usually better to be a nature cleric or another cleric with magic initiate. AC 17 with 1d8 hit die is dangerously soft for a front liner. Is UA allowed? That spore druid was made to gish. Maybe your DM doesn't handwave the metal, but will give out nice scale, bone, ironwood, etc.

    If none of those accommodations are available maybe just be a dex based archer/rapier poker, Ranger 5/Druid x, grassland druid for haste. That way your AC will go up as you level. If you're into moon druid, all the ranger subclass options work well in wildshape.

    The damned metal armor limitation scuttles a lot of builds. There are work arounds, such as a single level monk dip at higher level, but they tend to not be worth the cost when plate wearing nature cleric is a thing. Are there specific druid spells you are after that make you set on druid?
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  26. - Top - End - #266
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    The Ranger Druid gets a little MAD if you want to be pure wisdom focused as your AC might not be great without metal armor (unless your DM allows for it). Hide or studded leather nets you at most a 17 AC using a shield to start with on point buy. If you really want to shillelagh and be in melee its usually better to be a nature cleric or another cleric with magic initiate. AC 17 with 1d8 hit die is dangerously soft for a front liner. Is UA allowed? That spore druid was made to gish. Maybe your DM doesn't handwave the metal, but will give out nice scale, bone, ironwood, etc.

    If none of those accommodations are available maybe just be a dex based archer/rapier poker, Ranger 5/Druid x, grassland druid for haste. That way your AC will go up as you level. If you're into moon druid, all the ranger subclass options work well in wildshape.

    The damned metal armor limitation scuttles a lot of builds. There are work arounds, such as a single level monk dip at higher level, but they tend to not be worth the cost when plate wearing nature cleric is a thing. Are there specific druid spells you are after that make you set on druid?
    I'm AFB at the moment, but I believe Call Lightning is exclusive to Druids and maybe Tempest clerics? I'll show my bias here, I've never cared for Clerics, to the point that I forgot they were WIS casters. Since you've pointed that out, it does seem like a very good combination. I would miss Wildshape, however. I may end up finally trying a Cleric! But now I'm torn between the two. I don't think my DM would be too strict on the metal restriction, however, since I'd argue I'm more of a Ranger than a Druid per se, but that's his call to make.

    The real draw of Druid is mostly flavor. Ranger/Druid is a very natural Multiclass story/character choice speaking, and it looked on the surface like they would mesh well for a Gish forward build. But I will dig into the spell list of Cleric vs. Druid when I get my books and see if it's worth losing Wildshape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    I use these forums as my weak DnD crack replacement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rerem115 View Post
    Vicious Mockery: Adding injury to insult.
    My homebrew:
    The Hag Patron, a witch option for the 5e Warlock.
    Arcane Tradition of Universalism, a more generalist school for 5e Wizards.
    Circle of Ironwood, a true Gish option for the 5e Druid.

  27. - Top - End - #267
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Cleric/Barbarian is red in the chart, but purple in the more detailed explanation.
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    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
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    I'm good with eliminating Xihirli. I'm not sure how she has managed to live as long as she has.
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    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
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    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
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    That was a lot of awesome backstabbing.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Cleric/Barbarian is red in the chart, but purple in the more detailed explanation.
    Purple probably fits better. Warding Bond with Rage is actually pretty solid. I'll update the chart. Thanks.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-06-27 at 12:17 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Curious is there are any plans to expand this guide into multiclass options with more than 2 classes -- Things like Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer, etc. (Mostly the Charisma classes, if I'm honest -- They really tend to work together obnoxiously well regardless of how you combine them thanks to how SAD they are. Might be the biggest power balance oversight in 5E)

    I certainly know that almost every Paladin build I make involves dipping at least 1 level into Hexblade for Hex Warrior, but I might dip only that one level and do a sword and board Paladin/Fighter for the most part.
    Last edited by ciarannihill; 2018-06-27 at 01:59 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #270
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    Default Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ciarannihill View Post
    Curious is there are any plans to expand this guide into multiclass options with more than 2 classes -- Things like Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer, etc.
    I'd like to know how to best optimize:
    Ranger - Gloom stalker (maybe 3 or 4 levels for ASI)
    Monk - Drunken Master (at least 5 levels)
    Rogue - Assassin (at least 3 levels)

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