Page 35 of 36 FirstFirst ... 10252627282930313233343536 LastLast
Results 1,021 to 1,050 of 1073
  1. - Top - End - #1021
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    This is interesting, since the "conventional wisdom" for paladin-MC'ing is "always go for Pal 5-6 right off the bat." I happen to disagree with said conventional wisdom.

    Are 3 levels of Bard better than 1-3 levels of Hexblade? I mean, you get soo much from just a 1 level dip. But I would be strongly tempted to take it much earlier. Yes it's delaying an ASI (and an extra attack) by a level; but unless I'm missing something, this build delays ASI by 2 and the attack by 5! I think if you're going to have such a delay, make sure it's Really worth it!
    Rushing lvl 5 sorcerer and get access to those 3rd lvl spells is a huge breakpoint. It is especially beneficial if you picked the divine sorcerer, where you can pick up Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon. Yes you are delaying aura and extra attack, but the extra attack can be somewhat mitigated by the fact that you can use Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade which receives an uppgrade at lvl 5. Not to mention that with the Quickened and Twinned metamagic you have the possibility to make 3 attacks in a round with a 1d8 bonus damage on each attack from booming blade (4 attacks with haste at lvl 7). You also have access to shield for defense and get way more spell slots to smite with. Going hexblade early will not give you any big breakpoint that is worth that sacrifice.

    When you pick hexblade you are also giving up your big spell slots. A 9th lvl spell slot is quite a big loss and if you pick 3 lvls you will also lose your 8th lvl slot. Hexblade also makes it a bit awkward if you plan on going vengence paladin, where your hexblades curse will overlap with VoE as a bonus action.

    Bards on the other hand dont lose any spell slots, they also gain a ton of other stuff as i have mentioned before, and the Blade Flourish really stands out. The Defensive Flourish is basically a Shield spell, meaning your reaction is free for other uses. You can for example cast absorb elements giving you a strong defense in both physical and elemental damage at the same time, which otherwise would be impossible. And the best part is the Blade Flourish is intergrated into your attack action, meaning you dont have to waste any more time buffing/debuffing. Sword Bards also gains a fighting style (+2 damage), meaning that the SADness people talk about with hexblade gives a maximum of +2 attack (no damage increase) over a bard and that is only if you dont count magical items. Personally comparing hexblade to bard i would say bard comes out ahead.
    Last edited by Swosh; 2019-05-05 at 07:20 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #1022
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I just want to point out the ASI path I took and why it was very effective in the tier 4 gameplay.

    So I went standard ASIs: Variant Human, War Caster, then 4 and 10 +2 CHA.

    Then at level 14 I took GWM feat and got myself a good 2 handed sword +2 (already had longsword +1 with 1d6 extra dmg from Necrotic).

    This ended up as very versatile melee character:

    For bosses I was using VoE + Holy Weapon or Spirit Guardians to burst them down. Shadow Blade if I was fighting in darkness or dim light. This was the time to burn Smites. Shield +2 also allowed me to many times avoid using Shield spell to protect myself. This is resource heavy setup- good for tough/final fights.

    For regular skirmish with mobs I was using Greater Invisibility + GWM two-handed sword to kill them really fast without having to burn a lot of my resources. Lost of 4 AC from shield was visible but with Shield spell on hand I had +5 AC on demand. Make sure you have some STR boosing item. I had Ogre Gloves so +4 to hit.

    For some bosses with low AC but high HP- VoE + Haste/Spirit Guardians + using GWM + quicken BB was a great way to burst them down with 4 attacks per turn.

    Holding a choke point or tanking big group of enemies: Sword n Shield with Spirit Guardians again.

    Druid casting Fearie Fire on enemies: switching to greatsword + quicken spirit guardians or haste.

    Generally I was really pleased with this as it allowed me to be more flexible and also gameplay was less boring as I could switch between various set ups to fit best to the situation.

    Not saying it's best optimized choice, but it was fun and effective.

  3. - Top - End - #1023
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Aimeryan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    When you pick hexblade you are also giving up your big spell slots. A 9th lvl spell slot is quite a big loss and if you pick 3 lvls you will also lose your 8th lvl slot. Hexblade also makes it a bit awkward if you plan on going vengence paladin, where your hexblades curse will overlap with VoE as a bonus action.
    One level of Hexblade will not lose the highest spell level known if you go from Pal 6/Sor 14 ----> Pal 6/Sor 13/Hex 1. You do lose the level 14 Sorcerer Origin feature (30ft flight for DS) at level 20, one Sorcery Point per day, and the level 9 spell slot at level 20, but you gain one level 1 spell slot per short rest (so typically three a day), an extra spell known, two more cantrips, plus the Hexblade level 1 features - all at whatever level you take it. If not using strength items this seems like a pretty decent trade until you hit level 20, and then not too bad.
    Last edited by Aimeryan; 2019-05-06 at 08:31 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #1024
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    You will find that if your DM is running 4-5 deadly fights per long rest, any Paladin/Caster setup is going to burn out of resources pretty quickly. Bard might hold up better with inspiration coming back on a short rest, but you might also consider one of the Hexadin variations for more short rest resources.

    However, since this thread is specifically discussing Paladin/Sorcerer multiclasses, this isn't the place for a long winded breakdown of Paladin/Bard - another thread was started recently about melee bards that touches on this multiclass, including some observations I've made for a character I'll be playing in AL soon. You can find that here :
    thx, you're very helpful.

  5. - Top - End - #1025
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2018

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Is there some stipulation in AL play that PCs will get certain magic items at certain levels? Some of the builds here seem to rely on that; and I'm not sure how they would work out Without said magic items.

    In a game run on DM-fiat (which, I believe, has always been the "norm"), a PC is at the mercy of the DM in terms of what items are available and obtained. I don't think I want to build a paladin on the assumption that I'll be getting Ogre Gauntlets or a Belt of Giant Strength. What if it doesn't happen? What if I'm not assured of getting that +3 breastplate?

    I'm trying to build with the assumption that I'm going to get absolutely nothing. If I get something, great; but I don't think I can/should count on it.

  6. - Top - End - #1026
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    One level of Hexblade will not lose you slots if you go from Pal 6/Sor 14 ----> Pal 6/Sor 13/Hex 1. You do lose the level 14 Sorcerer Origin feature (30ft flight for DS) and one Sorcery Point per day, but you gain one level 1 spell slot per short rest (so typically three a day), an extra spell known, two more cantrips, plus the Hexblade level 1 features. If not using strength items this seems like a pretty decent trade.
    Unless you are playing very very low magic setting in 5e- there is very slim chance that you won't have access to find/loot/buy/craft at least Ogre Gloves or Hilt Giant Belt by level 15.

    I'd say you have lower chance to seeing levels 15+ than not getting STR item.

    Besides 9th level spell slot is quite a nice boost to many upcasted spells you have or generating Sorcery Points at one go. It's also great to up cast Extended Aid before long rest. And free flying is very good boost for any melee character (ignoring difficult terrain, flying above enemies etc.). I don't think 1 level Hexblade is worth it. Curse is nice but bonus actions are already busy for Sorcadins, especially Vengeance Sorcadins and short rest slots are not imo worth 9th level slot.

    However if I were to give up 9th level slot and Sorcery Points I would take 2 levels of Fighter instead for Action Surge. It's a short rest so it should be available at every big enough encounter and it boosts what Sorcadin/Paladins do best: single target destruction. Pairs great with all other Sorcadin tools like Shadow Blade, Holy Weapon, Quicken Hold etc.

  7. - Top - End - #1027
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    Is there some stipulation in AL play that PCs will get certain magic items at certain levels? Some of the builds here seem to rely on that; and I'm not sure how they would work out Without said magic items.

    In a game run on DM-fiat (which, I believe, has always been the "norm"), a PC is at the mercy of the DM in terms of what items are available and obtained. I don't think I want to build a paladin on the assumption that I'll be getting Ogre Gauntlets or a Belt of Giant Strength. What if it doesn't happen? What if I'm not assured of getting that +3 breastplate?

    I'm trying to build with the assumption that I'm going to get absolutely nothing. If I get something, great; but I don't think I can/should count on it.
    In AL you collect Treasure Points (I think that's how you call them in English). You can then buy specific magic items for them in Downtime between AL meetings. So in AL it's 100% safe to assume you will have specific magic items.

    As for DMs- there is always a risk that your DM is a mean guy, but then you don't play with them.

    Mostly DMs know how they will run their world/setting. So just ask them before you start playing with them how they handle magic items- will there be a lot? Will you be able to buy them? Craft them? Will they loot a lot during adventures? Will he use random generation tables or place/create magic items that are suited for his players? Most competent DMs perfectly know answer for that questions.

    Me personally I have never seen no-magic item setting in 5e so far. Most DMs I have played with have a lot of magic items through your journey and STR items are most common to reward melee classes with. Also most DMs I have met care more about fun at table then being some try-hards to win vs players so if you talk with most DMs "listen, I would like to earn much item like that. Could we maybe do some quest or something for it?" - usually they go along and will try to give you opportunity to get it.

    I never had DM who was like "no, I see you would like STR magic items because you are melee, so you will never get them". Those are imo DMs you should avoid to play with. Never had to play with one like that.

  8. - Top - End - #1028
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Aimeryan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu View Post
    Unless you are playing very very low magic setting in 5e- there is very slim chance that you won't have access to find/loot/buy/craft at least Ogre Gloves or Hilt Giant Belt by level 15.

    I'd say you have lower chance to seeing levels 15+ than not getting STR item.

    Besides 9th level spell slot is quite a nice boost to many upcasted spells you have or generating Sorcery Points at one go. It's also great to up cast Extended Aid before long rest. And free flying is very good boost for any melee character (ignoring difficult terrain, flying above enemies etc.). I don't think 1 level Hexblade is worth it. Curse is nice but bonus actions are already busy for Sorcadins, especially Vengeance Sorcadins and short rest slots are not imo worth 9th level slot.

    However if I were to give up 9th level slot and Sorcery Points I would take 2 levels of Fighter instead for Action Surge. It's a short rest so it should be available at every big enough encounter and it boosts what Sorcadin/Paladins do best: single target destruction. Pairs great with all other Sorcadin tools like Shadow Blade, Holy Weapon, Quicken Hold etc.
    I agree if you get the strength items then the Hexblade dip is pretty much pointless and an overall loss - if not playing AL, however, the strength items are not guaranteed.

    Besides, you can also say the same thing about ASIs - you put two or three ASIs into strength and then the DM gives Ogre Gloves to the guy who has just been getting feats? Feels bad. My group isn't fond of those items at all.

  9. - Top - End - #1029
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    I agree if you get the strength items then the Hexblade dip is pretty much pointless and an overall loss - if not playing AL, however, the strength items are not guaranteed.

    Besides, you can also say the same thing about ASIs - you put two or three ASIs into strength and then the DM gives Ogre Gloves to the guy who has just been getting feats? Feels bad. My group isn't fond of those items at all.
    That is why I said you should always talk with your DM before you start playing with him. Imo things like: homebrews, multiclassing, magic items, feats, UAs, races, combat/roleplay balance, type of campaign (wildrness, dungeons, other dimensions, urban, mix etc.) are thing you should always discuss with your DM.

    Nobody would like so start playing as Half-Orc Ranger, investing next 2 ASI in 20 STR only to find out that magic items are super common in this DM setting and most of your campaign is taking place in urban areas where your ranger class is totally overshadowed by your Bard and Paladin friends.

    That is why I don't think there is a lot of room for disappointment if you speak honestly with your DM. And after first campaign with him- you will perfectly know what to expect in most cases.

    Also mechanically:

    Also unless you are GWM Sorcadin, 16 STR is not that bad at all. We can assume you will have at least weapon +1 on level 18 (duh). With +6 proficiency that is total of +10 to hit. While sure +12 is better than +10, it's not really that big of a difference, especially since you have such easy access to advantage as Sorcadin: Vow of Enmity, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Blade or Darkness combo if you are Shadow Sorcerer. Since advantage is on average +4, that is easly +14 to hit.

    STR boosting item is really not that necessary for Sword n Shield Sorcadin. 16 STR is perfectly fine. CHA is better because it's: AURA, spell DC, CHA save, social skill and spells known.
    Last edited by Mitsu; 2019-05-06 at 09:01 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #1030
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2018

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu View Post
    That is why I said you should always talk with your DM before you start playing with him. Imo things like: homebrews, multiclassing, magic items, feats, UAs, races, combat/roleplay balance, type of campaign (wildrness, dungeons, other dimensions, urban, mix etc.) are thing you should always discuss with your DM.
    I don't know of many DMs (myself included) that would volunteer all that info. The whole point of the adventure is to adapt to whatever surprises the DM wants to throw at you.

    Thus, a PC should be built without any such assumptions. IMHO.

  11. - Top - End - #1031
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    I don't know of many DMs (myself included) that would volunteer all that info. The whole point of the adventure is to adapt to whatever surprises the DM wants to throw at you.

    Thus, a PC should be built without any such assumptions. IMHO.
    I don't share that view. People should play RPGs to have fun at table. I play only with adults and people don't have time to waste to see that in the middle after 4 sessions gameplay/setting/DM and rules are not what they wanted/expected. That is essentially wasted time.

    I play with quite few groups and at least what I know- it's common thing in groups that decide to play longer than one-shot- is that both DM and players should say what are their expectations/preferences and try fit everything so everyone have fun.

    DM does not doing you any Grace that he mercifully decided to lead you game. Him and players are both a part of group that wants to have fun. Also at that age range (32-45) people don't really have that much free time to waste it on people who expect that everyone will adapt to their playstyle even at cost of what they consider fun. I mean, that I guess we left around teenager years of playing RPG where DMs would act like bosses in job as opposite to part of RPG group.

    Do you buy games or go to movies also without reading description of plot, genre, mechanics etc.? Nobody wants to waste time on something they don't like. Do you take random book from shelf and gamble if it's what you like or not?

    That is at least how I see it. So far it works perfectly in last decade. Nobody ever at table did not have fun as everyone worked before campaign to make sure everything is clear and everyone are ok with everything. That's how being in group works. It's not a workplace where you have Manager and underlings. Even there you don't sign agreement before you know what you can expect.

    And that totally does not take away from plot twists or surprising party. We are talking about setting/gameplay. Nobody wants to make Lore Bard only to hear at level 6 "ow, yea, you can't take Druid spells as lore bard, homerule". That is sign of poor DMing in my opinion.
    Last edited by Mitsu; 2019-05-06 at 10:47 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #1032
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    So lets say we have 13 spells known as a Divine Soul Sorcadin.
    Any suggestions on good spells to pick?
    So far ive been thinking the following:

    1. Shield (Defense spell)
    2. Absorb Elements (Defense spell)
    3. Counterspell (Defense spell)
    4. Dimension Door (Utility spell)
    5. Mass Suggestion (Utility/Sociopath spell)
    6. Spirit Guardians (Melee AoE spell)
    7. Hypnotic Pattern / Fireball / Sypnatic Static / Fear (Ranged AoE spell)
    8. Holy Weapon (Resource Economic spell)
    9. Heal (Support spell)
    10. Haste / Shadow Blade / Greater Invisibility (Single target nova spell)


    11. ??
    12. ??
    13. ??

    The last 3 im still unsure about but i have some ideas,
    Good contestors:
    1. Contagion? (Poison legendary boss for 3 rounds)
    2. Scatter? (Reshape the battlefield)
    3. Globe of Invulnerability? (Can upcast all the way to lvl 9 to almost make you immune to spells)
    3. Raise Dead? (Ressurect ally)
    4. Another Ranged Aoe spell? (Hypnotic Pattern /Fireball / Sypnatic Static / Fear)
    5. Defense spell? (Death Ward / Freedom of Movement / Mirror Image)
    6. Sociopath spell? (Enemies Abound / Suggestion / Phantasmal Force / Major Image)
    7. Another utility spell? (Fly / Misty Step / True Seeing / Feather Fall)
    8. Another Resource Economic spell? (Spiritual Weapon)
    9. Bestow Curse? (Save or Die spell that you can upcast for non concentration)
    10. Another support spell? (Sanctuary / Warding Bond / Holy Word)

  13. - Top - End - #1033
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Corran's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    @Swosh: Some things greatly depend on factors you did not mention, more specifically the oath and the what the rest of the party is playing. For example, blur is not considered to be a fantastic spell, but for a crown sorcadin playing in a heavy-ranged party, it is up there with the best of them, at least imo. Or web. Web is a good spell, but for conquest sorcadin it is more than good; it's great. Similarly, the value of spells such as healing word, mass cure wounds, prayer of healing, revivify (and others, I didn't mean to necessarily narrow it down to healing/recovery spells, though I think they are good examples to illustrate the point), depends a lot on the availability of them when you take into account the rest of the group. Bottom line, when you know the party, it's far easier to make the most out of your spell selection, especially when divine soul is in the mix, just because it is more versatile than the rest of the sorcerer origins, and this versatility can be put to great use when you are more specific and certain about what you are looking for from your spells, from a tactics point of view. If for whatever reason you cannot or don't want to take into account party composition, you can use your oath as your starting point regarding your spell selection. Some oaths lend themselves better to certain strategies/combat roles, so at the very least that can help a lot with spell selection (and thus with metamagic selection as well).


    But to offer a very general reply, off the top of my head, I'd say that the following spells would be worthy of consideration:
    1) Out of combat healing: Prayer of healing.
    2) In combat healing: healing word, mass cure wounds, heal.
    3) Good non concentration options: sanctuary (defense/ protect allies), spiritual weapon (good 'value for money' damage), freedom of movement and death ward (defensive buffs, though FoM has good attacking potential if combined with certain battlefield control spells).
    4) Debuff removal: greater restoration, revivify/raise dead.
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-05-24 at 06:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  14. - Top - End - #1034
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    @Swosh: Some things greatly depend on factors you did not mention, more specifically the oath and the what the rest of the party is playing. For example, blur is not considered to be a fantastic spell, but for a crown sorcadin playing in a heavy-ranged party, it is up there with the best of them, at least imo. Or web. Web is a good spell, but for conquest sorcadin it is more than good; it's great. Similarly, the value of spells such as healing word, mass cure wounds, prayer of healing, revivify (and others, I didn't mean to necessarily narrow it down to healing/recovery spells, though I think they are good examples to illustrate the point), depends a lot on the availability of them when you take into account the rest of the group. Bottom line, when you know the party, it's far easier to make the most out of your spell selection, especially when divine soul is in the mix, just because it is more versatile than the rest of the sorcerer origins, and this versatility can be put to great use when you are more specific and certain about what you are looking for from your spells, from a tactics point of view. If for whatever reason you cannot or don't want to take into account party composition, you can use your oath as your starting point regarding your spell selection. Some oaths lend themselves better to certain strategies/combat roles, so at the very least that can help a lot with spell selection (and thus with metamagic selection as well).


    But to offer a very general reply, off the top of my head, I'd say that the following spells would be worthy of consideration:
    1) Out of combat healing: Prayer of healing.
    2) In combat healing: healing word, mass cure wounds, heal.
    3) Good non concentration options: sanctuary (defense/ protect allies), spiritual weapon (good 'value for money' damage), freedom of movement and death ward (defensive buffs, though FoM has good attacking potential if combined with certain battlefield control spells).
    4) Debuff removal: greater restoration, revivify/raise dead.

    Yes, while i agree that the Paladin Oaths, party composition and other factors in a Sorcadin build changes things, there are spells that will always remain good no matter what. This include spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Dimension Door, Mass Suggestion just to name a few. In addition to this there are spells that are very simular to eachother that can be categorized into the same "group". This includes for example Haste / Shadow Blade / Greater Invisibility which is all "single target Nova" spells and you will just pick the one that fits the Oath and the build your running. Haste for example is normally better than Greater Invisibility for a Vengance Paladin, since you have advantage on demand. Same goes for the other groups like AoE spells where "Fear" is very attractive to the lvl 7 Conquest Paladin, while other Oaths lean more towards Hypnotic Pattern. Overall im just trying to generalize in a combination with Groups as much as possible what spells would be preferable.

    As for the spells you listed:
    1. I dont think Prayer of healing is particulary good, even out of combat. The casting time is 10 minutes and the healing isnt even particularly good. If you have 10 minutes to cast a spell you might aswell go for 1 hour short rest. Do keep in mind your also giving up a spell slot so basically your trading 1 resource for another and your not even getting that much back. Im not saying Prayer of Healing is useless, im saying there are better options with your limited spell selection.

    2. Sanctuary/Warding Bond is quite situational but i could see them beeing useful in the early game for protecting party members. In the later lvls however they will get overshadowed by Death Ward, which has a way stronger protection and can be twinned to extend it to a 2nd target.

    3. Spiritual Weapon is very good in the early game, but ultimatly the more i think about it it gets overshadowed by Holy Weapon in the late game. Both Holy Weapon and Spiritual Weapon fill the same role (Resource Cost Effective), but Holy Weapon does the job better. It lasts 1 Hour which is quite a long time as opposed to 1 minute.
    Last edited by Swosh; 2019-05-24 at 08:04 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #1035
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Corran's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Yes, while i agree that the Paladin Oaths, party composition and other factors in a Sorcadin build changes things, there are spells that will always remain good no matter what. This include spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Dimension Door, Mass Suggestion just to name a few.
    I might ended up swaping dimension door for misty step (or not), and I would definitely include at least one ranged instantaneous AoE (most likely fireball), but yeah, I agree with your point. There are some spells you will end up taking no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    In addition to this there are spells that are very simular to eachother that can be categorized into the same "group". This includes for example Haste / Shadow Blade / Greater Invisibility which is all "single target Nova" spells and you will just pick the one that fits the Oath and the build your running.
    Or pick none at all. Maybe your concentration will be better spent with other spells and you don't need to use it to give yourself a further boost to an area you are already good at. Don't get me wrong, these are good spells (at least I think that haste and particularly greater invisibility are good spells, not that impressed by shadow blade), but I can think of sorcadins where I would simply not have enough room for any of them, and part of the reasoning would be that I would already have enough concentration spells to deal with the majority of situations anticipated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Haste for example is normally better than Greater Invisibility for a Vengance Paladin, since you have advantage on demand. Same goes for the other groups like AoE spells where "Fear" is very attractive to the lvl 7 Conquest Paladin, while other Oaths lean more towards Hypnotic Pattern. Overall im just trying to generalize in a combination with Groups as much as possible what spells would be preferable.
    Good points. The oath is a good starting point to start thinking about spell selection and concentration. Devotion sorcadins are very likely to grab hypnotic pattern, while conquest sorcadins would grab fear. Vengeance sorcadins would grab haste or some other spell has synergy with VoE, crown sorcadins would probably look for a good defensive buff to withstand the pressure they can invite with a successful application of their CD. Etc. Something like this can be the basis of your tactics, in a sense that it kind of locks you to one or two concentration spells already. After that, and given that you get some concentration options from the paladin list (most notably bless, not only because it's a good spell, but it's a spell that -depending on allies- will work just as well under any situation), I'd say that you try to think of what situation your concentration spells don't cover (if any) and pick one or two more that would cover these hypothetical commonly anticipated scenarios. Imo you don't need a concentration spell for every category you are describing. It would be ideal for that to be the case, but the limited number of picks and the limit that concentration imposes makes me think that specialization to that extreme is not beneficial (especially in the case of divine soul sorcadins, who offer more spell choices).

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    As for the spells you listed:
    1. I dont think Prayer of healing is particulary good, even out of combat. The casting time is 10 minutes and the healing isnt even particularly good. If you have 10 minutes to cast a spell you might aswell go for 1 hour short rest. Do keep in mind your also giving up a spell slot so basically your trading 1 resource for another and your not even getting that much back. Im not saying Prayer of Healing is useless, im saying there are better options with your limited spell selection.
    Good point. I was under the impression that the casting time is one round. Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    2. Sanctuary/Warding Bond is quite situational but i could see them beeing useful in the early game for protecting party members. In the later lvls however they will get overshadowed by Death Ward, which has a way stronger protection and can be twinned to extend it to a 2nd target.
    I've never given warding bond much thought, I am sure it must be useful but eh. On the other hand I find sanctuary amazing. I don't think a comparison between sanctuary and death ward is beneficial. I can see several advantages of sanctuary over death ward, but let me just that I find both spells to be good (and I think it's more common to target different allies with each of these spells, for example you probably cast death ward on your melee friendlies while you have sanctuary on the ready for your casters; though nothing prevents you from stacking them if necessary). I'll only make a mention about how sanctuary can be useful as a defensive buff when paired with battlefield control. Most likely by exploiting a choke point. Sanctuary can spare you a lot of pain in these situations. This is just an example, but two days ago my group had a session where a big battle went on. We ambushed the end boss of the dungeon level the group is in, 5 characters on the boss trying to kill it, my character at the entrance of the room to hold off a small army of goblins from entering the room and influencing the rest of the fight. We could have done it better (not that it was a bad plan), but that's how it went down. Shield of faith and dodging did the job (just barely, held enough for the other pc's to kill the boss, after which the goblins scattered), but honestly, through the whole time I was thinking how good it would be if I only had sanctuary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    3. Spiritual Weapon is very good in the early game, but ultimatly the more i think about it it gets overshadowed by Holy Weapon in the late game. Both Holy Weapon and Spiritual Weapon fill the same role (Resource Cost Effective), but Holy Weapon does the job better. It lasts 1 Hour which is quite a long time as opposed to 1 minute.
    Holy weapon is by far the better spell, undoubtedly. But it's a concentration spell. Whether you pick it or not does not depend on if you have spiritual weapon or not, but on how you have planned on using your concentration. My point I guess is that it is of little value to put in the same basket from where you'll choose, concentration and non concentration spells.
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-05-24 at 09:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  16. - Top - End - #1036
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    I might ended up swaping dimension door for misty step (or not), and I would definitely include at least one ranged instantaneous AoE (most likely fireball), but yeah, I agree with your point. There are some spells you will end up taking no matter what.
    The flexibility of Dimension Door is amazing! and far exceeds Misty Step. With a 500 feet range, the lifted restriction of not having to see where your teleporting and the fact that you can bring a friend is just insane. This means no more worries about not getting where you want to be. Your having problems getting to the flying dragon that's far up in the air? Not anymore, let's do a Quicken Dimension Door up on its back and start delivering the pain. You happened to be blinded, inside darkness or need to get through a wall or two? No problem, this spell has you covered. This spell even gives you the added benefit of bringing along a partner. Take with you the raging Barbarian when you want to gang up on the boss or save a dying friend in need. Great for offense, defense and utility and always a must have in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Or pick none at all. Maybe your concentration will be better spent with other spells and you don't need to use it to give yourself a further boost to an area you are already good at. Don't get me wrong, these are good spells (at least I think that haste and particularly greater invisibility are good spells, not that impressed by shadow blade), but I can think of sorcadins where I would simply not have enough room for any of them, and part of the reasoning would be that I would already have enough concentration spells to deal with the majority of situations anticipated.
    Thats true you dont have to pick any of them, but i think its a good idea to start thinking in groups. By thinking in groups you can compare
    each spell in a group to another spell in the same group. That way you will end up picking whatever group you want first which will therefore prevent overlap between spells (Especially concentration spells). By doing it this way it will make it easier to have all the areas covered. Example of groups:

    Defense
    Utility
    Support
    Single target nova
    AoE: Melee AoE / Ranged AoE
    Resource Economic
    Sociopath

    Do keep in mind that some spells might be categorized into more than 1 group, so it has to be taken with a grain of salt, but atleast it gets you an overview.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Good points. The oath is a good starting point to start thinking about spell selection and concentration. Devotion sorcadins are very likely to grab hypnotic pattern, while conquest sorcadins would grab fear. Vengeance sorcadins would grab haste or some other spell has synergy with VoE, crown sorcadins would probably look for a good defensive buff to withstand the pressure they can invite with a successful application of their CD. Etc. Something like this can be the basis of your tactics, in a sense that it kind of locks you to one or two concentration spells already. After that, and given that you get some concentration options from the paladin list (most notably bless, not only because it's a good spell, but it's a spell that -depending on allies- will work just as well under any situation), I'd say that you try to think of what situation your concentration spells don't cover (if any) and pick one or two more that would cover these hypothetical commonly anticipated scenarios. Imo you don't need a concentration spell for every category you are describing. It would be ideal for that to be the case, but the limited number of picks and the limit that concentration imposes makes me think that specialization to that extreme is not beneficial (especially in the case of divine soul sorcadins, who offer more spell choices).
    Yes i agree you don't need a concentration spell for every area. In fact i think that's a bad choice. If you look at my list of spells from the earlier post:

    1. Shield (Defense spell)
    2. Absorb Elements (Defense spell)
    3. Counterspell (Defense spell)
    4. Dimension Door (Utility spell)
    5. Mass Suggestion (Utility/Sociopath spell)
    6. Spirit Guardians (Melee AoE spell)
    7. Hypnotic Pattern / Fireball / Synaptic Static / Fear (Ranged AoE spell)
    8. Holy Weapon (Resource Economic spell)
    9. Heal (Support spell)
    10. Haste / Shadow Blade / Greater Invisibility (Single target nova spell)

    Of these only 3-4 are concentration spells (Single target nova / Resource Economic / Melee AoE and the 4th being Ranged AoE depending on if you picked Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball or Synaptic Static).

    As for the last 3, I'm slightly convinced that Death Ward is a solid choice for 1 of them. Death Ward also protects you against those nasty spells that don't require any saving throw at higher lvls like Power Word Kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    I've never given warding bond much thought, I am sure it must be useful but eh. On the other hand I find sanctuary amazing. I don't think a comparison between sanctuary and death ward is beneficial. I can see several advantages of sanctuary over death ward, but let me just that I find both spells to be good (and I think it's more common to target different allies with each of these spells, for example you probably cast death ward on your melee friendlies while you have sanctuary on the ready for your casters; though nothing prevents you from stacking them if necessary). I'll only make a mention about how sanctuary can be useful as a defensive buff when paired with battlefield control. Most likely by exploiting a choke point. Sanctuary can spare you a lot of pain in these situations. This is just an example, but two days ago my group had a session where a big battle went on. We ambushed the end boss of the dungeon level the group is in, 5 characters on the boss trying to kill it, my character at the entrance of the room to hold off a small army of goblins from entering the room and influencing the rest of the fight. We could have done it better (not that it was a bad plan), but that's how it went down. Shield of faith and dodging did the job (just barely, held enough for the other pc's to kill the boss, after which the goblins scattered), but honestly, through the whole time I was thinking how good it would be if I only had sanctuary.
    Sanctuary although a good spell, is not something i would keep around at later lvls. I can think of better uses with my limited spells known. With spells like Death Ward, Heal, Dimension Door, a concentration spell and the fact that you can take the dodge action, there is definitively an overlap and kind of feels like you don't need to give yourself a further boost to an area you are already good at. Although the spell is situational, early game is where i could see Sanctuary shine. Here you don't have any of those fancy spells and the only option you have is most likely the dodge action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Holy weapon is by far the better spell, undoubtedly. But it's a concentration spell. Whether you pick it or not does not depend on if you have spiritual weapon or not, but on how you have planned on using your concentration. My point I guess is that it is of little value to put in the same basket from where you'll choose, concentration and non concentration spells.
    This is where i have to disagree, both Holy Weapon and Spiritual Weapon offer the same thing. Resource Economic. Yes Holy Weapon is a concentration spell which causes some liability, that's true. However, Resource Economic don't often overlap with the other areas. Just think of it this way. If your up against the boss would you cast Spiritual Weapon? No you wouldn't. You would use Quicken Booming Blade instead. If your in a big dungeon and your fighting from door to door, taking more and more attrition would you cast Spiritual Weapon? Absolutely, but instead you could cast Holy Weapon giving you way better bang for your buck. Of coarse you could take both, but that would be rather extreme, because of your limited spells known.





    Edit: the more i think about it, the more uses i can see Sanctuary have. A bonus action defensive spell that has a 30 feet range. The fact that it uses a bonus action is great and the range is also quite good and can be twinned if needed.
    The spell is more flexible than it looks at first glance such as casting it on a controlled mount or a familiar that is fighting alongside you. Cast it on an NPC or on a helpless party member. The wizard is surrounded? The rogue is unconscious? Casting Sanctuary on them can be safer than trying to heal them. Casting it on yourself and take the Dodge action for a bit of safety can be helpful when things go bad or you need to hold off a choke point. You can also use it while still attacking. Simply do your offensive action first, then cast Sanctuary as a bonus action and you will be protected until the next round. Basically turning it into a preemptive Shield spell that you can cast every round. Although the last part will not work in combination with War Caster + Booming Blade or Counterspell and will also eat a lot of spell slots.

    A strong combination can include Spirit Guardians + Sanctuary and use the following rounds taking dodge/help/dash action where the enemy would take damage every round while still having trouble hitting you. Sanctuary might just be a valid option after all.
    Last edited by Swosh; 2019-05-25 at 10:49 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #1037
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    @Swosh... so 13 spells known... so level 13 or 14 Sorcerer with (I believe) up to one 7th spell

    +1 for Death Ward... it is just a fantastic choice. It is an insurance policy. It gets more relevant as you level up.
    -1 for Spiritual Weapon... I agree with you about not taking it. Drop it before level 11. It doesn't matter that it's non-concentration and bonus action... the damage is too small to outweigh taking up one of the 13 'spells known' slots.

    +1 for Revivify... for similar reasons as Death Ward... sometimes you'll really want it
    +1 for Sanctuary... I agree with you... but I don't think it works with Spirit Guardians anymore after the errata.

    7th level slot... I see you have no 7th level spells yet, so here are some possible choices...
    Utility - Teleport, Plane Shift, Summon Celestial (Couatl)
    Combat - Reverse Gravity (it's concentration, though)
    Thematic - Regeneration... play as Wolverine for an hour (no concentration)

    Conclusion: I like everything already on your list. So, if you are looking for 3 more I would add
    11. Revivify
    12. Death Ward
    13. 7th level spell (see above)

  18. - Top - End - #1038
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Fryy View Post
    @Swosh... so 13 spells known... so level 13 or 14 Sorcerer with (I believe) up to one 7th spell

    +1 for Death Ward... it is just a fantastic choice. It is an insurance policy. It gets more relevant as you level up.
    -1 for Spiritual Weapon... I agree with you about not taking it. Drop it before level 11. It doesn't matter that it's non-concentration and bonus action... the damage is too small to outweigh taking up one of the 13 'spells known' slots.

    +1 for Revivify... for similar reasons as Death Ward... sometimes you'll really want it

    7th level slot... I see you have no 7th level spells yet, so here are some possible choices...
    Utility - Teleport, Plane Shift, Summon Celestial (Couatl)
    Combat - Reverse Gravity (it's concentration, though)
    Thematic - Regeneration... play as Wolverine for an hour (no concentration)

    Conclusion: I like everything already on your list. So, if you are looking for 3 more I would add
    11. Revivify
    12. Death Ward
    13. 7th level spell (see above)
    Actually i was thinking of lvl 11 Sorcerer. Divine Soul gets +1 to spells known. Personally I'm not a huge fan of the lvl 7 Sorcerer spells and I think the only reason taking lvl 14 Sorcerer is if your party composition is lacking a big utility spell like Plane Shift or Teleport. That being said if we take lvl 14 Divine Soul Sorcerer then we have 14 spells known (13 from Sorcerer and 1 From Divine Soul) giving us:

    1. Shield (Defense spell)
    2. Absorb Elements (Defense spell)
    3. Counterspell (Defense spell)
    4. Dimension Door (Utility spell)
    5. Mass Suggestion (Utility/Sociopath spell)
    6. Spirit Guardians (Melee AoE spell)
    7. Hypnotic Pattern / Fireball / Synaptic Static / Fear (Ranged AoE spell)
    8. Holy Weapon (Resource Economic spell)
    9. Heal (Support spell)
    10. Haste / Shadow Blade / Greater Invisibility (Single target nova spell)
    11. Death Ward (Defense spell)
    12: Plane Shift / Teleport (Utility spell)


    13. ??
    14. ??

    The last 2 I'm still unsure about. I can see a resurrection spell being useful, especially if you don't have others in your party that has it. If however 2 or more party members already have access to a resurrection spell then i think the value goes down. That being said, when you advocate for Revivify do you think its better than Raise Dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fryy View Post
    +1 for Sanctuary... I agree with you... but I don't think it works with Spirit Guardians anymore after the errata.
    Yeah fair point, I must have missed the damage part.

  19. - Top - End - #1039
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Corran's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    The flexibility of Dimension Door is amazing! and far exceeds Misty Step. With a 500 feet range, the lifted restriction of not having to see where your teleporting and the fact that you can bring a friend is just insane. This means no more worries about not getting where you want to be. Your having problems getting to the flying dragon that's far up in the air? Not anymore, let's do a Quicken Dimension Door up on its back and start delivering the pain. You happened to be blinded, inside darkness or need to get through a wall or two? No problem, this spell has you covered. This spell even gives you the added benefit of bringing along a partner. Take with you the raging Barbarian when you want to gang up on the boss or save a dying friend in need. Great for offense, defense and utility and always a must have in my book.
    Yes, dimension door has all these advantages over misty step. Misty step on the other hand is cheaper though. It's a compromise. Either take the cheaper option that will work just as well X% of the time but it will fall short for the remaining cases, or go with the more expensive option so that you are covered but with the caveat that you now present yourself with an additional problem when it comes to spell selection (as you need to be more careful about selecting spells which you intend to use with your 4th level slots) and to resource management. For me it is not an easy or an intuitive choice. After a recent exchange of opinions with Deathtongue (a few pages back in this thread), I think I have narrowed it to the following thought: For me the selling point on dimension door for a sorcadin, is if you can make the best of the 'bringing an ally with you' part. For example, say we are fighting a flying threat, against which misty step cannot do much (like the dragon example you mentioned). If I have someone like a barbarian in the party (melee specialist, for whom ranged attacks are a significant step down), I would want to grab dimension door instead of misty step. But if I was playing in a party of sth like a shadow monk, a ranged dpr (non rogue) and a caster, I think I'd go with misty step instead, and I would be content to fall back to my ranged options if I really had to focus on the flying threat (and if the caster has dimension door, maybe he can give me a lift before exiting with feather fall).



    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Thats true you dont have to pick any of them, but i think its a good idea to start thinking in groups. By thinking in groups you can compare
    each spell in a group to another spell in the same group. That way you will end up picking whatever group you want first which will therefore prevent overlap between spells (Especially concentration spells). By doing it this way it will make it easier to have all the areas covered. Example of groups:

    Defense
    Utility
    Support
    Single target nova
    AoE: Melee AoE / Ranged AoE
    Resource Economic
    Sociopath

    Do keep in mind that some spells might be categorized into more than 1 group, so it has to be taken with a grain of salt, but atleast it gets you an overview.
    Spoiler: Reiterating the point, as I misread your post the first time.
    Show
    Here lies a trap though. I don't think it's beneficial to have all areas covered. That's because you can handle the same situation in different ways, so choosing the best way to handle it is enough and you don't really need an alternative that might be marginally better 5% of the time. I'll use some general examples. Let's look at some categories:
    A) Defensive concentration spells.
    B) Dpr concentration spells.
    C) Out of combat healing spells.
    D) Nova spells/abilities.

    There is little point in picking both the best defensive concentration buff (A) and the best dpr concentration buff (B). Both spells accomplish the same thing but just in a different way. The offensive spell will let you kill opponents faster, while the defensive spell will let you endure better. Both spells help you win the battle of hp essentially. If you could use both at the same time there would be a good argument for picking a spell from both categories, but since I am talking about concentration spells, you cannot do that, so I don't see much point in doubling in both categories.

    C (out of combat healing) and D (nova) interact in a more subtle way. Having good out of combat healing options does not mean you can affored to neglect or to be underwhelmed by your nova options, because if you lose the combat (character deaths, even a TPK), all the amount of out of combat healing in the world will do you no good. But having a good out of combat healing option means that you don't need to rely on nova for securing a cleaner victory, since it is typical that out of combat healing is more cost effective than nova abilities. In this case, you only use nova when you want to turn the tide of combat or more commonly when you don't want to risk it.

    Categories overlap and influence each other (partly because of how the concentration mechanic limits you, but not only because of that), up to the point that added versatility will add nothing of value in some cases.


    Spell comparisons will fair a lot better though if you include the most relevant parameters. First party, then oath (although if we only really care about optimization, the party will determine the oath as well). I mean, even if you don't know what the rest of the party will be playing, or for whatever reason you don't really want to optimize within the parameters set by the rest of the group, or even if it is just a theoretical character optimization exercise, at the very least it's worth mentioning the oath (and the split). In some cases, oath features have enough synergy with certain spells to make your life very easier when it comes to spell selection. It's kind of when someone starts a sorcerer thread and asks which spells they should use without having mentioned anything about metamagic. The first question everyone will ask will be 'what's your metamagic'.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Yes i agree you don't need a concentration spell for every area. In fact i think that's a bad choice. If you look at my list of spells from the earlier post:

    1. Shield (Defense spell)
    2. Absorb Elements (Defense spell)
    3. Counterspell (Defense spell)
    4. Dimension Door (Utility spell)
    5. Mass Suggestion (Utility/Sociopath spell)
    6. Spirit Guardians (Melee AoE spell)
    7. Hypnotic Pattern / Fireball / Synaptic Static / Fear (Ranged AoE spell)
    8. Holy Weapon (Resource Economic spell)
    9. Heal (Support spell)
    10. Haste / Shadow Blade / Greater Invisibility (Single target nova spell)

    Of these only 3-4 are concentration spells (Single target nova / Resource Economic / Melee AoE and the 4th being Ranged AoE depending on if you picked Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball or Synaptic Static).

    As for the last 3, I'm slightly convinced that Death Ward is a solid choice for 1 of them. Death Ward also protects you against those nasty spells that don't require any saving throw at higher lvls like Power Word Kill.
    There are certain spells that help you economize resources (sp or slots). Animated objects, spiritual weapon, holy weapon are such spells. But economizing resources as a category on its own is a stretch imo. Economizing resources becomes a problem that needs that kind of planning around it when you are doing something wrong (most likely spending smites and sp for quickening cantrips without thinking twice about it; for certain it's a playstyle, but I wouldn't call it optimal; that's why I would characterize the above kind of reasoning as to the inclusion of holy weapon as a fix to a self imposed problem, and not a part of optimization). Holy weapon is a good spell though, and I don't mean to say that I would never take it on a sorcadin. I think it plays better with the oath of the ancients, cause that's the oath with the least synergy between paladin features and sorcerer spells, at least as far as I can think of. But more importantly including this spell would probably be most useful if the group was lacking significantly in the dpr department (and at the same time he party is bad at the cc department). Also in cases where the set up of the group is all about planning to outdamage the enemy, which is risky, but if everyone else is focused on that, there is probably little point in trying to do something else as a sorcadin. Back to holy weapon, as far as I understand your intention is to spend one use and have it last for several encounters. It's a good plan (though do note that holy weapon does not work well with the scagtrips), but if the oath sets you well for other concentration spells, I would pass on holy weapon as I value certain synergies (which is one area where I think sorcadins shine at) more than going with a decent cost effective option. Cause imo, a big part of optimizing a sorcadin is exploiting synergies between oath features and spells.

    I think you would profit from dividing the ranged AoE spells into two categories. Those that require concentration and those that don't. And quite possibly to those that deal damage and those that don't. It's a pain to have to drop what you are concentrating at so that you can cast an AoE. For hat reason, I'd include one or two non-concentration ranged AoE's no matter what.





    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Sanctuary although a good spell, is not something i would keep around at later lvls. I can think of better uses with my limited spells known. With spells like Death Ward, Heal, Dimension Door, a concentration spell and the fact that you can take the dodge action, there is definitively an overlap and kind of feels like you don't need to give yourself a further boost to an area you are already good at. Although the spell is situational, early game is where i could see Sanctuary shine. Here you don't have any of those fancy spells and the only option you have is most likely the dodge action.
    Unless protection from evil, blur or greater invisibility are on the picture, I wouldn't say that the dodge action is not relevant at high level play. Just as long as enough potential damage is headed your way, you are good to go. The tricky part of course is to find a way to ensure that enough potential damage is headed your way, but if you do that, then you probably want to invest in either blur or greater invisibility and to keep protection from evil handy. Dodge has it place though. The trick with sanctuary is to pair it with very good battlefield control, at least when looking at it as a defensive buff. It's not just the damage prevention, it's also that it can protect you against grapples and shoving. And while these situations wouldn't be much of a bother for a sorcadin (because we'll have some form of teleportation), at least in a typical combat scenario, when defending a choke point all it takes is a successful grapple or shove to cancel the tactical advantage you had till then. Preferably it's good to use it against high-STR low-WIS creatures with strong attacks, but usually the situation will be what calls for it and not the odds.



    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    This is where i have to disagree, both Holy Weapon and Spiritual Weapon offer the same thing. Resource Economic. Yes Holy Weapon is a concentration spell which causes some liability, that's true. However, Resource Economic don't often overlap with the other areas. Just think of it this way. If your up against the boss would you cast Spiritual Weapon? No you wouldn't. You would use Quicken Booming Blade instead. If your in a big dungeon and your fighting from door to door, taking more and more attrition would you cast Spiritual Weapon? Absolutely, but instead you could cast Holy Weapon giving you way better bang for your buck. Of coarse you could take both, but that would be rather extreme, because of your limited spells known.
    Spiritual weapon against a boss? Hard to say. Depends on the boss. But assuming I had spiritual weapon, I would prefer using it to spending sp to quicken weapon cantrips. More generally, I see spiritual weapon as a good action economy filler for difficult-ish fights. It can certainly take a lot of pressure off of smites, particularly if I am facing enemies with low AC. For me, quickening cantrips is as much of a last resort as an option can get, and it certainly falls behind smite or a spell like spiritual weapon when I am making a choice. Unless the situation seems desperate/ too risky of course, then yeah, I would probably both quicken and smite on every successful attack. But spiritual weapon is a good spell exactly because it does not require concentration. I think you are underestimating this factor. Not needing to sacrifice an effective strategy (part of which would be some other concentration spell) in order to add more damage is a big deal. And finding a cost effective way to achieve that is not a small thing either. It's not a must have spell, it just adds damage. Meaning that I would not go out of my way to pick the divine soul origin just for this spell. But if I had the option, I would certainly consider it (and most likely take it).







    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Edit: the more i think about it, the more uses i can see Sanctuary have. A bonus action defensive spell that has a 30 feet range. The fact that it uses a bonus action is great and the range is also quite good and can be twinned if needed.
    The spell is more flexible than it looks at first glance such as casting it on a controlled mount or a familiar that is fighting alongside you. Cast it on an NPC or on a helpless party member. The wizard is surrounded? The rogue is unconscious? Casting Sanctuary on them can be safer than trying to heal them. Casting it on yourself and take the Dodge action for a bit of safety can be helpful when things go bad or you need to hold off a choke point. You can also use it while still attacking. Simply do your offensive action first, then cast Sanctuary as a bonus action and you will be protected until the next round. Basically turning it into a preemptive Shield spell that you can cast every round. Although the last part will not work in combination with War Caster + Booming Blade or Counterspell and will also eat a lot of spell slots.

    A strong combination can includes Spirit Guardians + Sanctuary and use the following rounds taking dodge/help/dash action where the enemy would take damage every round while still having trouble hitting you. Sanctuary might just be a valid option after all.
    All good points. Unfortunately, I think that in the errata it was clarified that sanctuary will end if you deal any damage, including damage from a spell which you cast on a previous round (so no sanctuary + spirit guardians or sanctuary + aura of conquest anymore, at least if you pay any mind to the errata).
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-05-25 at 02:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  20. - Top - End - #1040
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    How does thunderstep rate in the misty step vs dimension door?
    My sig is something witty



    I am a:
    Spoiler
    Show
    I Am A: Lawful Good Human Wizard/Sorcerer (1st/1st Level)
    Ability Scores:
    Strength-11
    Dexterity-13
    Constitution-13
    Intelligence-14
    Wisdom-12
    Charisma-14

    what are you

  21. - Top - End - #1041
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    How does thunderstep rate in the misty step vs dimension door?
    It's an action and very loud. I've had it, never used it. Not to say it's useless, I just find the cost of an action to be very very high
    Rule of Cool and Rules as Fun. My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

  22. - Top - End - #1042
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    The last 2 I'm still unsure about. I can see a resurrection spell being useful, especially if you don't have others in your party that has it. If however 2 or more party members already have access to a resurrection spell then i think the value goes down. That being said, when you advocate for Revivify do you think its better than Raise Dead?
    Revivify vs. Raise Dead: In isolation, I would say Raise Dead is strictly better. With Revivify you only have one minute to cast it after your party member or NPC goes down. So, in that sense Raise Dead is way more flexible and more cautious.

    That said, choice is somewhat campaign dependent. A recipient of Revivify has no penalties while a recipient of Raise Dead has some temporary penalties requiring multiple long rests. So, if you have multiple other party members with resurrection-type magic and you can mostly reach a fully downed party member in less than 10 rounds, than Revivify is less of a hassle.

    Obviously dont take more than one of Revivify, Raise Dead, and Resurrect.

  23. - Top - End - #1043
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Actually i was thinking of lvl 11 Sorcerer. Divine Soul gets +1 to spells known. Personally I'm not a huge fan of the lvl 7 Sorcerer spells and I think the only reason taking lvl 14 Sorcerer is if your party composition is lacking a big utility spell like Plane Shift or Teleport. That being said if we take lvl 14 Divine Soul Sorcerer then we have 14 spells known (13 from Sorcerer and 1 From Divine Soul) giving us:

    1. Shield (Defense spell)
    2. Absorb Elements (Defense spell)
    3. Counterspell (Defense spell)
    4. Dimension Door (Utility spell)
    5. Mass Suggestion (Utility/Sociopath spell)
    6. Spirit Guardians (Melee AoE spell)
    7. Hypnotic Pattern / Fireball / Synaptic Static / Fear (Ranged AoE spell)
    8. Holy Weapon (Resource Economic spell)
    9. Heal (Support spell)
    10. Haste / Shadow Blade / Greater Invisibility (Single target nova spell)
    11. Death Ward (Defense spell)
    12: Plane Shift / Teleport (Utility spell)


    13. ??
    14. ??
    For the last two, I look for any good non-concentration spell since you have many concentration spells selected.
    Aid - can be used in combat to provide immediate hit points to multiple downed allies
    Dispel Magic - many, many uses... useful even if you also have counterspell
    Healing Word - it is 'ranged' and a bonus action... so slightly expanded utility vs. lay on hands
    Freedom of Movement - very situational... but if you have a party member who likes to cast Web, it's great.
    Greater Restoration - less useful if you have a Cleric party member... then again... useful in case your Cleric gets feeble-minded or somehow unable to cast it themselves.

  24. - Top - End - #1044
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Yes, dimension door has all these advantages over misty step. Misty step on the other hand is cheaper though. It's a compromise. Either take the cheaper option that will work just as well X% of the time but it will fall short for the remaining cases, or go with the more expensive option so that you are covered but with the caveat that you now present yourself with an additional problem when it comes to spell selection (as you need to be more careful about selecting spells which you intend to use with your 4th level slots) and to resource management. For me it is not an easy or an intuitive choice. After a recent exchange of opinions with Deathtongue (a few pages back in this thread), I think I have narrowed it to the following thought: For me the selling point on dimension door for a sorcadin, is if you can make the best of the 'bringing an ally with you' part. For example, say we are fighting a flying threat, against which misty step cannot do much (like the dragon example you mentioned). If I have someone like a barbarian in the party (melee specialist, for whom ranged attacks are a significant step down), I would want to grab dimension door instead of misty step. But if I was playing in a party of sth like a shadow monk, a ranged dpr (non rogue) and a caster, I think I'd go with misty step instead, and I would be content to fall back to my ranged options if I really had to focus on the flying threat (and if the caster has dimension door, maybe he can give me a lift before exiting with feather fall).
    First of all in most cases you don't have that many 4th lvl spells known. Dimension Door and Death Ward being the optimal choices. So if you remove Dimension Door all you have is Death Ward. Second, as a melee combatant there is a HUGE benefit with being able to get to the places you want to be and will provide you with a tactical advantage that can determine the outcome of the fight. This even includes if you remove the added benefit of taking with you a party member. Taking with you a party member is just the cherry on top of an already awesome spell that you have been gifted. Since playing defense seems to clearly be your favorite just imagine how many choke points you can occupy with this spell. You will always be able to position yourself in the right place at the right time when called for. Providing you with tactical advantages, holding off the enemy so your party can escape and teleport out afterwards. You will always be able to get to the bad guy and he will have a though time getting away. The flexibility of this spell is just too good and is not something Misty Step can replace and is well worth sacrifice of using 2 spell slots higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Spoiler: Reiterating the point, as I misread your post the first time.
    Show
    Here lies a trap though. I don't think it's beneficial to have all areas covered. That's because you can handle the same situation in different ways, so choosing the best way to handle it is enough and you don't really need an alternative that might be marginally better 5% of the time. I'll use some general examples. Let's look at some categories:
    A) Defensive concentration spells.
    B) Dpr concentration spells.
    C) Out of combat healing spells.
    D) Nova spells/abilities.

    There is little point in picking both the best defensive concentration buff (A) and the best dpr concentration buff (B). Both spells accomplish the same thing but just in a different way. The offensive spell will let you kill opponents faster, while the defensive spell will let you endure better. Both spells help you win the battle of hp essentially. If you could use both at the same time there would be a good argument for picking a spell from both categories, but since I am talking about concentration spells, you cannot do that, so I don't see much point in doubling in both categories.

    C (out of combat healing) and D (nova) interact in a more subtle way. Having good out of combat healing options does not mean you can affored to neglect or to be underwhelmed by your nova options, because if you lose the combat (character deaths, even a TPK), all the amount of out of combat healing in the world will do you no good. But having a good out of combat healing option means that you don't need to rely on nova for securing a cleaner victory, since it is typical that out of combat healing is more cost effective than nova abilities. In this case, you only use nova when you want to turn the tide of combat or more commonly when you don't want to risk it.

    Categories overlap and influence each other (partly because of how the concentration mechanic limits you, but not only because of that), up to the point that added versatility will add nothing of value in some cases.
    Yes concentration spells is a factor which is why you have to think about which groups overlap with each other and which groups is more flexible and can coexist. A defensive concentration spell is of coarse going to overlap with an offensive concentration spell as you will want to use both at the same time. However groups like "Out of Combat Healing" is not going to overlap with either the Defensive Group or Offensive Group in most cases. When i talk about Holy Weapon as a Resource Economy spell, i talk about situations that don't require you to use any offense or defense concentration spells that you would otherwise use in a though fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Spell comparisons will fair a lot better though if you include the most relevant parameters. First party, then oath (although if we only really care about optimization, the party will determine the oath as well). I mean, even if you don't know what the rest of the party will be playing, or for whatever reason you don't really want to optimize within the parameters set by the rest of the group, or even if it is just a theoretical character optimization exercise, at the very least it's worth mentioning the oath (and the split). In some cases, oath features have enough synergy with certain spells to make your life very easier when it comes to spell selection. It's kind of when someone starts a sorcerer thread and asks which spells they should use without having mentioned anything about metamagic. The first question everyone will ask will be 'what's your metamagic'.
    Fair enough, lets say that its a Vengance Paladin Oath and the split is either 6/11/3 (Paladin/Sorcerer/Bard) or 6/14 (Paladin/Sorcerer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    I think you would profit from dividing the ranged AoE spells into two categories. Those that require concentration and those that don't. And quite possibly to those that deal damage and those that don't. It's a pain to have to drop what you are concentrating at so that you can cast an AoE. For hat reason, I'd include one or two non-concentration ranged AoE's no matter what.
    So you would be inclined to pick all 3 Ranged AoE spells? That seems a bit extreme concidering the few spells known.

    Dividing up the Ranged AoE we have:
    • Concentration: Hypnotic Pattern, Fear
    • Non-Concentration: Fireball, Sypnatic Static


    I agree its slightly painful with having to drop a concentration, but unless you are only meeting hordes of low CR monsters Hypnotic Pattern is going to be far better than a Fireball or Sypnatic Static. Speaking of Fireball and Sypnatic Static which one do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    The trick with sanctuary is to pair it with very good battlefield control, at least when looking at it as a defensive buff. It's not just the damage prevention, it's also that it can protect you against grapples and shoving. And while these situations wouldn't be much of a bother for a sorcadin (because we'll have some form of teleportation), at least in a typical combat scenario, when defending a choke point all it takes is a successful grapple or shove to cancel the tactical advantage you had till then. Preferably it's good to use it against high-STR low-WIS creatures with strong attacks, but usually the situation will be what calls for it and not the odds.
    All you have to do is take 3 lvls of Bard and you are basically immune to shove/grapples (Expertise Athletics)

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Spiritual weapon against a boss? Hard to say. Depends on the boss. But assuming I had spiritual weapon, I would prefer using it to spending sp to quicken weapon cantrips. More generally, I see spiritual weapon as a good action economy filler for difficult-ish fights. It can certainly take a lot of pressure off of smites, particularly if I am facing enemies with low AC. For me, quickening cantrips is as much of a last resort as an option can get, and it certainly falls behind smite or a spell like spiritual weapon when I am making a choice. Unless the situation seems desperate/ too risky of course, then yeah, I would probably both quicken and smite on every successful attack. But spiritual weapon is a good spell exactly because it does not require concentration. I think you are underestimating this factor. Not needing to sacrifice an effective strategy (part of which would be some other concentration spell) in order to add more damage is a big deal. And finding a cost effective way to achieve that is not a small thing either. It's not a must have spell, it just adds damage. Meaning that I would not go out of my way to pick the divine soul origin just for this spell. But if I had the option, I would certainly consider it (and most likely take it).
    There are three problems with Spiritual Weapon at higher lvls as opposed to Holy Weapon.
    1. Spiritual Weapon does very low damage compared to your lvl.
    2. Spiritual Weapon only last 1 minute, meaning 1 Spiritual weapon each fight.
    3. Spiritual Weapon only has 20 feet movement speed.

    Granted point nr 3 is not that big of a deal.
    Under normal circumstances which is when you would use Spiritual Weapon, you are casting it in every single fight, effectively you are wasting spell slots that you could otherwise have used when the fighting gets thougher. Holy Weapon doesn't have this limitation and you can go through several encounters (All you need is 3 to bypass Spiritual Weapon usage) dealing more damage and saving you a lot of spell slots. When a thougher fight occurs all you have to do is switch to another concentration spell and the Holy Weapon ends, which is fine because it did its job. You can even detonate it before hand as a bonus action if needed.

    It is true that with a regular scag cantrip Holy Weapon does not work particularly well, but the damage is approximately the same as a Spiritual Weapon with +5 to charisma. However Holy Weapon also has the added benefit of working very nicely with a twinned Booming Blade for just 1 sorcery point should the need arrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    There are certain spells that help you economize resources (sp or slots). Animated objects, spiritual weapon, holy weapon are such spells. But economizing resources as a category on its own is a stretch imo. Economizing resources becomes a problem that needs that kind of planning around it when you are doing something wrong (most likely spending smites and sp for quickening cantrips without thinking twice about it; for certain it's a playstyle, but I wouldn't call it optimal; that's why I would characterize the above kind of reasoning as to the inclusion of holy weapon as a fix to a self imposed problem, and not a part of optimization). Holy weapon is a good spell though, and I don't mean to say that I would never take it on a sorcadin. I think it plays better with the oath of the ancients, cause that's the oath with the least synergy between paladin features and sorcerer spells, at least as far as I can think of. But more importantly including this spell would probably be most useful if the group was lacking significantly in the dpr department (and at the same time he party is bad at the cc department). Also in cases where the set up of the group is all about planning to outdamage the enemy, which is risky, but if everyone else is focused on that, there is probably little point in trying to do something else as a sorcadin. Back to holy weapon, as far as I understand your intention is to spend one use and have it last for several encounters. It's a good plan (though do note that holy weapon does not work well with the scagtrips), but if the oath sets you well for other concentration spells, I would pass on holy weapon as I value certain synergies (which is one area where I think sorcadins shine at) more than going with a decent cost effective option. Cause imo, a big part of optimizing a sorcadin is exploiting synergies between oath features and spells.
    If your not going to pick Holy Weapon thats fine, but i see no reason to pick Spiritual Weapon then, beacuse Holy Weapon is clearly an upgrade of Spiritual Weapon in the Resource Economy department.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    All good points. Unfortunately, I think that in the errata it was clarified that sanctuary will end if you deal any damage, including damage from a spell which you cast on a previous round (so no sanctuary + spirit guardians or sanctuary + aura of conquest anymore, at least if you pay any mind to the errata).
    Yeah, fair point.
    Last edited by Swosh; 2019-05-25 at 05:50 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #1045
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    How does thunderstep rate in the misty step vs dimension door?
    The problem with Thunderstep is that it requires an action and dont offer the utility that Dimension Door does, particularly the sight restriction (you have to see where you want to teleport). The damage is also very circumstantial since most of the time you are teleporting to the enemy and not from the enemy.

  26. - Top - End - #1046
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Fryy View Post
    Revivify vs. Raise Dead: In isolation, I would say Raise Dead is strictly better. With Revivify you only have one minute to cast it after your party member or NPC goes down. So, in that sense Raise Dead is way more flexible and more cautious.

    That said, choice is somewhat campaign dependent. A recipient of Revivify has no penalties while a recipient of Raise Dead has some temporary penalties requiring multiple long rests. So, if you have multiple other party members with resurrection-type magic and you can mostly reach a fully downed party member in less than 10 rounds, than Revivify is less of a hassle.

    Obviously dont take more than one of Revivify, Raise Dead, and Resurrect.
    Fair point, Revivify beeing more of a combat spell almost like healing, while Raise Dead is more of an out of combat situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fryy View Post
    For the last two, I look for any good non-concentration spell since you have many concentration spells selected.
    Aid - can be used in combat to provide immediate hit points to multiple downed allies
    Dispel Magic - many, many uses... useful even if you also have counterspell
    Healing Word - it is 'ranged' and a bonus action... so slightly expanded utility vs. lay on hands
    Freedom of Movement - very situational... but if you have a party member who likes to cast Web, it's great.
    Greater Restoration - less useful if you have a Cleric party member... then again... useful in case your Cleric gets feeble-minded or somehow unable to cast it themselves.
    To be honest I dont regard the spells you listed in that high regard, beacuse you have most of them covered with the Paladin or they are too situational to be worthy of a pick for your limited spells known. Aid is a paladin spell, so pick it up there.
    Dispel Magic, is a bit situational and mosty DM dependent. Most likely a party member will cover it.
    Healing Word, is nice but you allready have so much healing between Heal, Cure Wounds and Lay on Hands that i dont think its worth a precious Sorcerer spell known.
    Freedom of Movement, is very situational and most effects that leave you paralized or restrained you already have covered with your amazing saving throws.
    Greater Restoration, again very situational.

  27. - Top - End - #1047
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Corran's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Fair enough, lets say that its a Vengance Paladin Oath and the split is either 6/11/3 (Paladin/Sorcerer/Bard) or 6/14 (Paladin/Sorcerer)
    Awesome. It's reasonable to pick some spells that play well with VoE then. That would be spells that augment your melee attacks, so you could say that we are optimizing towards a melee specialist (ie melee damage) direction. There are two ways to go about it: with a two handed weapon, or with a one handed weapon and a shield. Since the addition of spells like shadow blade and holy weapon, the shield approach is much more viable as far as a melee dpr is concerned than it used to be.

    If going with a two hander, personally I would pick resilient con, GWM, twinned, haste and bless. Pretty straightforward.

    If going with a shield (which is my guess), then warcaster replaces resilient con for sure. Then you look at spells that add damage. Shadow blade, holy weapon and haste are the ones that come to mind.

    Now, haste is not all that great for a S&B sorcadin, but you've got some things going for it. You'll have great concentration (warcaster, aura of protection and favored of the gods), you've got VoE that adds advantage to that extra attack, but most importantly, haste combines nicely with VoE action economy wise (because that's when you'd want to use haste, when VoE is on), in the sense that you have to use haste with your action, which means it is eligible for being twinned. That's when you look at what the other players are playing. For example, do you have a ranged rogue ally? Pick haste and twinned and don't look back.

    Holy weapon. You look at holy weapon if you want to play your S&B sorcadin as much like a dpr as you can. So you want to do two things to make the most out of it. First, you need to make sure you are in a party that can push through encounter after encounter without short rests. That means that you look for some buffs, but mainly for out of combat healing. Hard to pair good out of combat healing with holy weapon yourself (as getting access to both aura of vitality and holy puts you at level 18 if sorcadin, or level 17 if paladin; maybe there is some logic left to support prayer of healing, although on its own it certainly wont be enough) as I can't think of ways to go about it without dropping concentration, so you look at the group. For example, do you have a druid ally? If yes, by the time you'll get holy weapon it will be no problem for the druid to spend one or two slots for healing spirit. Watch out though for short rest dependent classes, cause some players may rightfully want to do some short resting. Secondly, try and find ways with which you'll spend several of your spell slots before or in between combats (that's in addition to smites which you can use during combat). Relying on holy weapon for multiple encounters means you are saving spells slots. In addition to turning these spells slots to smites or sp, find additional ways to spend them. Aid (which does its part regarding the previous point of trying to push through multiple encounters without rest), death ward, freedom of movement (more on that later), etc. These things make holy weapon seem to me more appealing, because if you think about it, its attacking potential is limited by the fact that you can only combine it once per casting with VoE, so most of the times those biffed up attacks will not profit from advantage. Another idea is to play a vhuman so that you can pick PAM (spear or 1/4staff) as your starting feat, as a bonus action attack certainly plays well with holy weapon. Maybe look at sentinel at the very late levels as well. If you think that your game will go all the way up to level 20, consider ending up with the 11th paladin level for IDS (grabbing aura of vitality along the way).

    So, I would be looking at sth a bit like this. At the start of the day you buff the party some, then cast holy weapon on yourself (at the first round of the first fight or prior to the first fight, if you know there is one up ahead). Push through as many encounters as you can without resting (need buy in from the rest of the group, but also good off combat healing to pull it off), say 3 enounters. Maybe during one of these encounters (preferably in the last one before the short rest) you end holy weapon with a bang. Of course you will have used VoE during one of these encounters. Then short rest. Buff the group some more (now it's probably time to use stuff like death ward). If there is a boss type encounter up ahead, that's when you use VoE, and for this case it would be good to have sth like shadow blade or twinned haste. Shadow blade loses points if you went with PAM as a vhuman feat, haste loses points if there isn't a good candidate for it among your allies.

    So, in short, if I wanted to play a dpr S&B vengeance paladin, I'd consider picking holy weapon based on what I mentioned so far about it, and then I'd pick one of shadow blade or twinned haste (based pretty much on what I aid in the previous sentence).

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Now, if you are set on investing in the melee dpr side of your build, be prepared to invest in mobility. Because if you can't reach your enemy, all the melee investment you did goes to waste. Under this premise, I can see why you rightfully insisted on having dimension door. The good news is that you have two other spells from being a vengeance paladin that help here as well. Misty step and find steed. That means that you can save on sp and higher level slots if sth cheaper than dimension door can get you next to your enemy. Haste helps here as well, if you end up picking it that is. Keep in mind that both misty step and haste can affect your mount as well. So it's good that you have ways to replace dimension door (2sp and a 4th level slot) when those cheaper ways can cut it. But yeah, if you are focused on being a melee dpr, then yeah, dimension door is pretty much mandatory (even better since you can go nova, which means you can hurt a lot the glass cannons of the enemy that try to rely on distance to keep themselves safe). A mention on freedom of movement. This spell is situational, sure. But it helps you with mobility, and that's an area where it would be good to invest due to the (assumed on my part) focus of the character. And it helps with mobility in ways that your other relevant spells cannot (or in some cases it saves you from spamming teleports). There are many examples, all situational of course, but let me mention a few. Consider you are fighting a very mobile target on difficult terrain. FoM might mean you don't have to spam dimension door or misty step, or that you don't have to fall back to sth like ray of frost. Difficult terrain is might be a lot of things too, such as water. FoM is what allows you to carry that fight underwater if you can profit from it (or deal with it if you are forced to). Retsraining effects, such as lair actions or monster abilities that will both hurt you (because they are used to key off sth else) or force you to spend bonus actions (along with sp and spell slots, though if the fight is very difficult, action economy is the big worry) to deal with them. Paralyzed conditions. Yeah, you have good saves, but why risk it (or you can always use it on an ally if you feel very confident). Yes, it is a situational spell (if used defensively), but spell slot wise it wont hurt you much (assuming you go through with the plan of using holy weapon to economize your resources). Personally I think it's worth a spot on the list of your sorcerer known spells. Though ultimately it's your call, I said my bit about it. Well, nearly. One last word about its offensive potential with a concentration ranged AoE spell (a kind of spell you were looking at). Pair it with web (precast FoM of course if you can). Go into the web, attack everything with advantage, let everyone spend their actions if they want to attack you with disadvantage (imo its preferable to letting them spend their actions to escape, due to your high effective AC). If they try to break free and flee the webbed area, OA with BB. Maybe next round try to pull them in with lightning lure. Battlefield control, attacking with advantage, being attacked with disadvantage, and good contingencies. It's a dragged out fight perhaps, but that's a good plan to make it an easy fight. Think about it and if it's your jam give it a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Speaking of Fireball and Sypnatic Static which one do you prefer?
    Synaptic static, hands down. The damage type means that you don't really need to invest on an additional damage AoE of different damage type (because how often is psychic damage resisted?), but more importantly, the penalty on attacks plays really well with our tanking duties. To put it simply, it's the better spell. I am a little worried by the fact that it consumes a 5th level slot. Because holy weapon uses the same slots as well, so that means that you'll use an AoE up to one (or two, but I am not sure if it's a good idea to spend a higher then 5th slot on it) time per day. Plus, if you go with the plan of using holy weapon to economize resources, that gives some extra value to fireball, since it will be easier for you to use it. I'd probably go for both to be honest. I think they complement nicely each other. Though don't take my word for it, I am far from certain about this one. I know though that if I was leveling up this character, I would pick fireball at sorcerer 5 (even if I ended up retraining it for synaptic static later).
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-05-26 at 05:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  28. - Top - End - #1048
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Synaptic static, hands down. The damage type means that you don't really need to invest on an additional damage AoE of different damage type (because how often is psychic damage resisted?), but more importantly, the penalty on attacks plays really well with our tanking duties. To put it simply, it's the better spell. I am a little worried by the fact that it consumes a 5th level slot. Because holy weapon uses the same slots as well, so that means that you'll use an AoE up to one (or two, but I am not sure if it's a good idea to spend a higher then 5th slot on it) time per day. Plus, if you go with the plan of using holy weapon to economize resources, that gives some extra value to fireball, since it will be easier for you to use it. I'd probably go for both to be honest. I think they complement nicely each other. Though don't take my word for it, I am far from certain about this one. I know though that if I was leveling up this character, I would pick fireball at sorcerer 5 (even if I ended up retraining it for synaptic static later).
    All good points, and INT is normally the best saving throw to target as well. The only limitation Synaptic Static has is that it doesn't work on low INT monsters and also costs a 5th lvl slot. Something that a Sorcadin will only have 2 of. As you mentioned i also think its a bad idea using higher lvl slots.

    Another spell that might be beneficial is Contagion. It seems quite useful on legendary bosses, where the boss would be guaranteed to be poisoned for 3 rounds and perhaps use some of their legendary resistances to avoid the after effect. Although the spell competes with your 5th lvl slot aswell. I'm inclined to maybe remove Resource Economic spells all together freeing up the 5th lvl slots and a spell known. That would certainly open up for options like Synaptic Static or Contagion.

    As for Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern and Web. The 3rd lvl bracket already has quite high competition between both Counterspell and Spirit Guardians. By picking 1 more 3rd lvl spell one of them will most likely have to be upcasted. Although upcasting Spirit Guardians might not be a bad choice. So 1 more 3rd lvl spell might be okay, but 2 i think is way too much. This leaves me to believe that Hypnotic Pattern is the better option if Synaptic Static is a better pick than Fireball. I don't really see having both Fireball and Synaptic Static with the few Sorcerer spells known as the optimal choice. They both mainly do the same thing, just that Fireball is cheaper and Synaptic Static has a stronger effect and don't work on targets with low INT score.

    As for Web, the only reason i can see worth taking it over Hypnotic Pattern is that the 3rd lvl bracket will be too crowded especially if Haste is taken aswell over Shadow Blade this can really become an issue where you have Counterspell, Spirit Guardians, Haste and Hypnotic Pattern.

    I'm personally not a huge fan of Freedom of Movement and keep in mind that i already have two 4th lvl spells, Dimension Door and Death Ward. If you add inn an extra use of Dimension Door or an upcasted Spirit Guardians then the 4th lvl slots is all full.

    As for mobility Haste will definitely be a good option and with 3 lvls of Bard you will also get the added benefit of both Blade Flourish and Longstrider.

    ---------------------------------------

    So far the spells that I'm quite sure about now look like this:
    1. Shield
    2. Absorb Elements
    3. Counterspell
    4. Spirit Guardians
    5. Dimention Door
    6. Death Ward
    7. Mass Suggestion
    8. Heal

    And the rest that im still trying to figuring out looks like this:

    9. Haste / Shadow Blade
    10. Hypnotic Pattern / Web
    11. Sypnatic Static / Fireball
    12. Raise Dead / Revivify
    13. Contagion / Sanctuary

  29. - Top - End - #1049
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Corran's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    @Swosh:
    I am not certain enough about some things to offer specific spell suggestions. Too many variables still. But I can ramble.

    Spoiler
    Show
    About contagion. I think there is some debate about how soon the poisoning effect applies. Think there is some errata about it, but haven't checked it as I never had to use this spell so far. Assuming it works as you described (or at the very least, assuming that that's how your DM will run it), contagion still needs some planning to make it work well. So let's say that you poison the enemy boss with it from round 1. That means disadvantage on its attacks. That can be huge or it may not mean so much, depending on whom the enemy boss targets. If the enemy boss targets you, then this is great and this spell help you tremendously in winning the fight. If the boss gets close and personal to your ranged dpr or to your magic user, or decides to attack someone like your recklessly attacking barbarian pal, then the spell wont have a great impact at the combat. I mean, it will have some impact, but not the impact you would expect from a 5th level spell, and far from the impact that a well placed 5th level spell would have. So you need some teamwork to make good use of this spell. Sanctuary could help a bit with limiting the boss's targeting options, though you need more. Some solid cc coming from an ally perhaps? Or melee allies with solid AC and good OA's (sentinel helps here; so does counterspell, assuming someone has sentinel covered and the boss has the ability to teleport) and ranged allies with good range and/or escape options? Or even a complying DM that knows you like your character tanking attacks. If you can make it work somehow, and it works as you described, then pick it up. It will be a great boss killer.

    Speaking of killing bosses. We touched on contagion above, but your most classic way of killing bosses will be to turn on VoE and pair it with sth like haste or shadow blade (regarding this dilemma, I value haste more, and I would definitely grab the twinned metamagic if I was picking up haste; but I cannot tell you that haste will be 100% the beter spell for you, because there is the off chance that you will play in a party where twinnig haste would not mean much; and if you were not to twin it, and given you play S&B, then I'd say that shadow blade becomes better; also, shadow blade gains value if you plan on quickening cantrips during boss fights; I wouldn't do that, but you do you, so take that under consideration as well; if you plan on quickening cantrips during boss fights, shadow blade might end up being pretty comparable to a twinned haste, at a steeper price as far as resources go though; if your playstyle revolves around quickening cantrips -really not my suggestion-, it's a good idea to involve holy weapon, as it will save you spell slots, and you will need to save on as many spell slots as you can, cause quickening cantrips will take its toll on your sp). So, that's potentially the 2nd way of killing bosses.

    So, to recap. Contagion is a potential boss killer against legendary bosses. Haste or shadow blade is your alternative and it works regardless of legendary resistance or not. Do you need other boss killing spells? You get one from being a paladin. Wrathful smite. Now, this spell will cease being a ''boss killer'' once legendary resistances come into play, but it will still remain a very useful spell against brutes. But during early and up to mid level play, it will be a great spell against certain bosses. There will be cases where it will be much preferable to use this spell than go ham with a twinned haste or with shadow blade and with spammed quickened cantrips or smites. It will be more difficult to lose concentration with it (reduced chance of being hit) and less harmful if you do (lower level resources spent). When you face an enemy that can deal a great amount of damage, and said enemy relies on attacks to do that damage, use this spell. That's because the damage this spell will save you from will be far more than the damage you will avoid by killing your target faster. Works very similarly to contagion with the main difference being that it requires a single saving throw to land it, and it's only a 1st level spell. It suffers some of the same drawbacks as contagion as well, if your melee allies are very eager for carnage and unwilling to play tactically. Just making sure you are aware of your options from the paladin side of things. Example, fire giant.

    And when you are facing an enemy boss with legendary resistances and a special attack that can deal tons of damage (assuming you didn't find a way to make contagion useful, or assuming you don't have it yet)? Bless. As you don't want to risk losing concentration on higher level spells (such as a twinned haste or an upcasted shadow blade) from the damage taken by that enemy's special attack and to have to recast them. Another alternative is to not use a concentration spell but instead go with normal attacks and smite (and spiritual weapon, though you made it clear that you don't like that spell). Extra points for bless if the enemy's AC is high and/or if the enemy's special attacks target saves. Beholder is a good example though dragons are a better example of this.

    -------------------------------------------

    I think that's enough for fights that include a boss. Let's go to the other extreme. Hordes. Let's break it down to two scenarios. The first scenario is when you have a clean and good shot at an AoE. The second scenario is the exact opposite, ie that you don't have a clean good shot at an AoE. Maybe that's because initiative didn't behave, or because your group was surprised by a small army of kobolds(!), or for any other similar reason. Now, imo, since you can, you need to be prepared for both eventualities. Sometimes you might need to resort to both courses of action (maybe because the enemy is attacking in waves or for whatever other reason). Usually that doesn't have to be the case though, cause if you soften/hinder the enemy horde with a well placed AoE before they can act, that will be enough to take most of the pressure off the fight, meaning that winning will just be a matter of time to win and it will show. But as I said, imo it's best to be prepared for both scenarios.

    In the first scenario, you need something along the lines of fireball and synaptic static. Will you pick both or not. If not, which one do you pick? Let that be the last decision you will make, after you have decided on the rest of your spell list. Then you'll see what kind of slots you'll have available.

    In the second scenario, you need something along the lines of careful hypnotic pattern (careful fear, careful compulsion, web and FoM on you and your melee allies yeah, I know, I know, you don't like the last one) or spirit guardians. Let's say you have to decide between careful hypnotic pattern and spirit guardians. Both good spells, both 3rd level spells, but selecting each of them presents you with some consequences. Taking careful hypnotic pattern (or careful anything) means that you cannot rely on twinned haste, because you will only have two metamagic options until the very late levels (and quickened is bound to be one of them). It's almost better to look at it conversely. First you decide on haste vs shadow blade, and if you go with haste, then that does away with the hypnotic pattern option so you lock spirit guardians. On the other hand, if you end up with both spirit guardians and with holy weapon, that's a bit of a waste in my eyes. Both of these spells (along with bless), are very generally applicable spells. But consider that if you have holy weapon, then this probably means that during most adventuring days, 2 encounters will use your concentration with holy weapon (if not more). If there is a boss encounter then it will use one of the spells mentioned previously (contagion, haste/shadow blade, wrathful smite, bless). If there is an encounter with few strong enemies then there is a number of other spells that could prove as (if not more) useful as spirit guardians. So you end up with spirit guardians as the right answer to a very situational problem (hordes against which you didn't manage to get a blast in). Assuming you don't have the careful metamagic, spirit guardians is the correct answer to this problem, so imo it is a spell worth taking just for that. But be prepared that if you get this spell, you might only need to call on it situationally. Because how many encounters will you really be having per day, and how often will you come across an enemy horde that you can't blast. (If on the other hand you want to play a sorcadin that uses spirit guardians a lot more regularly, I would highly suggest the conquest oath (7 levels are enough), since there is very good synergy between this spell and conquering presence + aura of conquest).

    -----------------------------------------

    Ok, we mentioned boss fights and horde fights. Let's talk about one last broad category. An encounter that pitches the party against few but tough enemies. Not tough enough as a solo boss with legendary resistances and a buttload of hit points, but tough enough to pose a thread even in small numbers. These sort of fights can be very difficult. One cliché example could be when the DM is throwing the anti-party at you. What's the best response to these fights? Rely on holy weapon to bring them down with damage? I mean, if you already have it running, that might be an idea, though it's probably better to end it with a bang (in the hope to blind them) and rely on sth else. Do you tank them? Sure, that's not a bad plan. You have the shield spell, you have good AC, good saves, so if you can make them target you (good OA's help a bit with that, just a bit though; smiting with a BB OA is the best you can do out of a horrible situation if an enemy leaves your reach to attack a squishy ally of yours). Do you use something like fireball or spirit guardians? Well, maybe, though the small numbers of the enemy don't make them the ideal solutions. The idea solution when you are faced with these types of encounters is to do something more drastic. Nuking, tanking, damage, all of these will help, but there are better options. And these options are better because they can kind of cut in half the fight, due to the small numbers and the power level of the enemies. Let me start mentioning a few of them.

    I'll start with an easy example. Say that these enemies are humanoids. Your group is about to face evil Athos, evil Aramis, evil Porthos and evil D'Artagnan. Even better if we assume that there is some kind of urgency. Say that after this fight you need to proceed to the throne room and face the evil Baron, who is the end boss of the day, so that means that you need to win the fight against his musketeers as cleanly as possible. Though even if the urgency is not there, the drastic solution is the best in these types of encounters. Back to the example. Do you know what you should do (you probably do, but I'll go on and say it)? Oldest trick in the guide. Hold person. Don't worry, you don't have to pick it up as a sorcerer spell, it comes with the vengeance oath. Do you know how you should do it? In case you don't, first you quicken the hold person, so that you can attack in the same round against targets that failed at the save before they get a second chance to save. Secondly, you upcast it, so that you will increase the chances of at least one enemy failing the save and to hopefully increase the rounds the cc and the critting goes on. Don't be shy about upcasting such spells when up against such kind of difficult fights. Use a 5th slot and target all 4 of them. Then proceed next to enemies that failed the save and smite them. Your allies can do the same.

    What if the enemies are not humanoids though, which is the most likely scenario anyway? Well, there are spells that you can have access to and that will work in this way. The two that work best imo in these types of fights (as far as a sorcadin's spells go) are banishment and hold monster. Both concentration spells, both high-ish level spells, but they can work wonders in these types of encounters. Upcasting is once again the way to go here. You'll have the slots to upcast anyway, and it will be slots well spent. The problem is that it wont be easy to find room for these spells in your spell list. I mean, we could try to squeeze them in somehow, but is it really worth it? You already have a big umber of concentration spells. It wont be worth it if your spell list ends up with half your spells being concentration, because there is a ton of value in non concentration spells. That's one reason why I don't like dpr focused sorcadins. They commit one or two concentration slots to spells that are good in situation where a sorcadin is already good at. Solo fights. You have smites and defenses up the wazoo, and there are several bosses against which bless or wrathful smite would be a good use of your concentration. But for fights against few tough opponents you don't get all that many stuff. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a rant. My point is, that you might end up lacking when faced with few tough opponents. Try to make sure that someone picks spells that would help the party deal with such kind of fights, if their character has access to such spells of course.

    Web, hypnotic pattern, fear, confusion, such spells have a chance of working well in such kind of encounters, though usually they will fall short of banishment and the hold spells. Web wont restrain for long, better if you or an ally can bring in some forced moevent. Hypnotic pattern might end up useless if the DM plays the enemies intelligently, but even that aside, such enemies although may not have legendary resistances, but charm and fear resistance/immunity is not that uncommon. Confusion can work more reliably than the rest and does not require any kind of synergy to make effective, but it's not the greatest spell in all honesty.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Regarding spell slots. Be a little more fluid in your planning of how you'll spend spell slots. For example, most of the adventuring days you might not even spend a single slot on counterspell. Then you might have a fight when you'll end up spending 3 rounds to counterspell in a row. Sometimes you might want to upcast a counterspell, even with your highest slot. Or dimension door. Sure, it's good to have it, but if you end up using all or some of haste, find steed, (longstrider if you take bard levels; I wont mention freedom of movement... oops, I just did), you might not need to spend slots and sp for a dimension door (or even for a misty step - oath spell, don't forget about it). Depending on how fights go you might need to smite less or more. There might be days when you will not even need to drop a damage AoE and days where you might need to drop 3 of them. I am not meaning to say that trying to form a resource management idea is the wrong way to go here. In fact, it's the smart thing to do. I am cautioning you against overestimating the accuracy of your predictions, exactly because there are many unknown variables play ball here. So use your predictions as a reference point, but don't let them make all the decisions for you. Playing with spell points helps a lot, but I would also suggest adopting a stingy mentality as far as spending resources goes when playing a sorcadin (though don't be afraid to upcast certain spells when it's worth it).


    Edit:
    1) Decide on shadow blade vs haste. And be sure about whether you will end up involving holy weapon or not. Once you decide on these two, things will roll more naturally.

    2) If someone else can grab revivify or raise dead, let them. If they are skeptical about it, start whining about how few spells a sorcerer gets. At least that's what I would do.

    3) If you are looking at taking both revivify and spirit guardians, an idea could be to take 9 crown paladin levels. You get both spells without needing to spend precious sorc slots on them, you get aura of vitality and dispel magic as well (and elemental weapon, which although not the greatest spell, it has synergy with gfb), and you get a concentration-free solid control option in your CD (which is amazing if you are the sole tank in your party; not that great if you are sharing the tanking duties). Probably not what you are looking for, just throwing it out there as food for thought.
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-05-26 at 11:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  30. - Top - End - #1050
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    @Swosh:
    I am not certain enough about some things to offer specific spell suggestions. Too many variables still. But I can ramble.

    Spoiler
    Show
    About contagion. I think there is some debate about how soon the poisoning effect applies. Think there is some errata about it, but haven't checked it as I never had to use this spell so far. Assuming it works as you described (or at the very least, assuming that that's how your DM will run it), contagion still needs some planning to make it work well. So let's say that you poison the enemy boss with it from round 1. That means disadvantage on its attacks. That can be huge or it may not mean so much, depending on whom the enemy boss targets. If the enemy boss targets you, then this is great and this spell help you tremendously in winning the fight. If the boss gets close and personal to your ranged dpr or to your magic user, or decides to attack someone like your recklessly attacking barbarian pal, then the spell wont have a great impact at the combat. I mean, it will have some impact, but not the impact you would expect from a 5th level spell, and far from the impact that a well placed 5th level spell would have. So you need some teamwork to make good use of this spell. Sanctuary could help a bit with limiting the boss's targeting options, though you need more. Some solid cc coming from an ally perhaps? Or melee allies with solid AC and good OA's (sentinel helps here; so does counterspell, assuming someone has sentinel covered and the boss has the ability to teleport) and ranged allies with good range and/or escape options? Or even a complying DM that knows you like your character tanking attacks. If you can make it work somehow, and it works as you described, then pick it up. It will be a great boss killer.

    Speaking of killing bosses. We touched on contagion above, but your most classic way of killing bosses will be to turn on VoE and pair it with sth like haste or shadow blade (regarding this dilemma, I value haste more, and I would definitely grab the twinned metamagic if I was picking up haste; but I cannot tell you that haste will be 100% the beter spell for you, because there is the off chance that you will play in a party where twinnig haste would not mean much; and if you were not to twin it, and given you play S&B, then I'd say that shadow blade becomes better; also, shadow blade gains value if you plan on quickening cantrips during boss fights; I wouldn't do that, but you do you, so take that under consideration as well; if you plan on quickening cantrips during boss fights, shadow blade might end up being pretty comparable to a twinned haste, at a steeper price as far as resources go though; if your playstyle revolves around quickening cantrips -really not my suggestion-, it's a good idea to involve holy weapon, as it will save you spell slots, and you will need to save on as many spell slots as you can, cause quickening cantrips will take its toll on your sp). So, that's potentially the 2nd way of killing bosses.

    So, to recap. Contagion is a potential boss killer against legendary bosses. Haste or shadow blade is your alternative and it works regardless of legendary resistance or not. Do you need other boss killing spells? You get one from being a paladin. Wrathful smite. Now, this spell will cease being a ''boss killer'' once legendary resistances come into play, but it will still remain a very useful spell against brutes. But during early and up to mid level play, it will be a great spell against certain bosses. There will be cases where it will be much preferable to use this spell than go ham with a twinned haste or with shadow blade and with spammed quickened cantrips or smites. It will be more difficult to lose concentration with it (reduced chance of being hit) and less harmful if you do (lower level resources spent). When you face an enemy that can deal a great amount of damage, and said enemy relies on attacks to do that damage, use this spell. That's because the damage this spell will save you from will be far more than the damage you will avoid by killing your target faster. Works very similarly to contagion with the main difference being that it requires a single saving throw to land it, and it's only a 1st level spell. It suffers some of the same drawbacks as contagion as well, if your melee allies are very eager for carnage and unwilling to play tactically. Just making sure you are aware of your options from the paladin side of things. Example, fire giant.

    And when you are facing an enemy boss with legendary resistances and a special attack that can deal tons of damage (assuming you didn't find a way to make contagion useful, or assuming you don't have it yet)? Bless. As you don't want to risk losing concentration on higher level spells (such as a twinned haste or an upcasted shadow blade) from the damage taken by that enemy's special attack and to have to recast them. Another alternative is to not use a concentration spell but instead go with normal attacks and smite (and spiritual weapon, though you made it clear that you don't like that spell). Extra points for bless if the enemy's AC is high and/or if the enemy's special attacks target saves. Beholder is a good example though dragons are a better example of this.

    -------------------------------------------

    I think that's enough for fights that include a boss. Let's go to the other extreme. Hordes. Let's break it down to two scenarios. The first scenario is when you have a clean and good shot at an AoE. The second scenario is the exact opposite, ie that you don't have a clean good shot at an AoE. Maybe that's because initiative didn't behave, or because your group was surprised by a small army of kobolds(!), or for any other similar reason. Now, imo, since you can, you need to be prepared for both eventualities. Sometimes you might need to resort to both courses of action (maybe because the enemy is attacking in waves or for whatever other reason). Usually that doesn't have to be the case though, cause if you soften/hinder the enemy horde with a well placed AoE before they can act, that will be enough to take most of the pressure off the fight, meaning that winning will just be a matter of time to win and it will show. But as I said, imo it's best to be prepared for both scenarios.

    In the first scenario, you need something along the lines of fireball and synaptic static. Will you pick both or not. If not, which one do you pick? Let that be the last decision you will make, after you have decided on the rest of your spell list. Then you'll see what kind of slots you'll have available.

    In the second scenario, you need something along the lines of careful hypnotic pattern (careful fear, careful compulsion, web and FoM on you and your melee allies yeah, I know, I know, you don't like the last one) or spirit guardians. Let's say you have to decide between careful hypnotic pattern and spirit guardians. Both good spells, both 3rd level spells, but selecting each of them presents you with some consequences. Taking careful hypnotic pattern (or careful anything) means that you cannot rely on twinned haste, because you will only have two metamagic options until the very late levels (and quickened is bound to be one of them). It's almost better to look at it conversely. First you decide on haste vs shadow blade, and if you go with haste, then that does away with the hypnotic pattern option so you lock spirit guardians. On the other hand, if you end up with both spirit guardians and with holy weapon, that's a bit of a waste in my eyes. Both of these spells (along with bless), are very generally applicable spells. But consider that if you have holy weapon, then this probably means that during most adventuring days, 2 encounters will use your concentration with holy weapon (if not more). If there is a boss encounter then it will use one of the spells mentioned previously (contagion, haste/shadow blade, wrathful smite, bless). If there is an encounter with few strong enemies then there is a number of other spells that could prove as (if not more) useful as spirit guardians. So you end up with spirit guardians as the right answer to a very situational problem (hordes against which you didn't manage to get a blast in). Assuming you don't have the careful metamagic, spirit guardians is the correct answer to this problem, so imo it is a spell worth taking just for that. But be prepared that if you get this spell, you might only need to call on it situationally. Because how many encounters will you really be having per day, and how often will you come across an enemy horde that you can't blast. (If on the other hand you want to play a sorcadin that uses spirit guardians a lot more regularly, I would highly suggest the conquest oath (7 levels are enough), since there is very good synergy between this spell and conquering presence + aura of conquest).

    -----------------------------------------

    Ok, we mentioned boss fights and horde fights. Let's talk about one last broad category. An encounter that pitches the party against few but tough enemies. Not tough enough as a solo boss with legendary resistances and a buttload of hit points, but tough enough to pose a thread even in small numbers. These sort of fights can be very difficult. One cliché example could be when the DM is throwing the anti-party at you. What's the best response to these fights? Rely on holy weapon to bring them down with damage? I mean, if you already have it running, that might be an idea, though it's probably better to end it with a bang (in the hope to blind them) and rely on sth else. Do you tank them? Sure, that's not a bad plan. You have the shield spell, you have good AC, good saves, so if you can make them target you (good OA's help a bit with that, just a bit though; smiting with a BB OA is the best you can do out of a horrible situation if an enemy leaves your reach to attack a squishy ally of yours). Do you use something like fireball or spirit guardians? Well, maybe, though the small numbers of the enemy don't make them the ideal solutions. The idea solution when you are faced with these types of encounters is to do something more drastic. Nuking, tanking, damage, all of these will help, but there are better options. And these options are better because they can kind of cut in half the fight, due to the small numbers and the power level of the enemies. Let me start mentioning a few of them.

    I'll start with an easy example. Say that these enemies are humanoids. Your group is about to face evil Athos, evil Aramis, evil Porthos and evil D'Artagnan. Even better if we assume that there is some kind of urgency. Say that after this fight you need to proceed to the throne room and face the evil Baron, who is the end boss of the day, so that means that you need to win the fight against his musketeers as cleanly as possible. Though even if the urgency is not there, the drastic solution is the best in these types of encounters. Back to the example. Do you know what you should do (you probably do, but I'll go on and say it)? Oldest trick in the guide. Hold person. Don't worry, you don't have to pick it up as a sorcerer spell, it comes with the vengeance oath. Do you know how you should do it? In case you don't, first you quicken the hold person, so that you can attack in the same round against targets that failed at the save before they get a second chance to save. Secondly, you upcast it, so that you will increase the chances of at least one enemy failing the save and to hopefully increase the rounds the cc and the critting goes on. Don't be shy about upcasting such spells when up against such kind of difficult fights. Use a 5th slot and target all 4 of them. Then proceed next to enemies that failed the save and smite them. Your allies can do the same.

    What if the enemies are not humanoids though, which is the most likely scenario anyway? Well, there are spells that you can have access to and that will work in this way. The two that work best imo in these types of fights (as far as a sorcadin's spells go) are banishment and hold monster. Both concentration spells, both high-ish level spells, but they can work wonders in these types of encounters. Upcasting is once again the way to go here. You'll have the slots to upcast anyway, and it will be slots well spent. The problem is that it wont be easy to find room for these spells in your spell list. I mean, we could try to squeeze them in somehow, but is it really worth it? You already have a big umber of concentration spells. It wont be worth it if your spell list ends up with half your spells being concentration, because there is a ton of value in non concentration spells. That's one reason why I don't like dpr focused sorcadins. They commit one or two concentration slots to spells that are good in situation where a sorcadin is already good at. Solo fights. You have smites and defenses up the wazoo, and there are several bosses against which bless or wrathful smite would be a good use of your concentration. But for fights against few tough opponents you don't get all that many stuff. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a rant. My point is, that you might end up lacking when faced with few tough opponents. Try to make sure that someone picks spells that would help the party deal with such kind of fights, if their character has access to such spells of course.

    Web, hypnotic pattern, fear, confusion, such spells have a chance of working well in such kind of encounters, though usually they will fall short of banishment and the hold spells. Web wont restrain for long, better if you or an ally can bring in some forced moevent. Hypnotic pattern might end up useless if the DM plays the enemies intelligently, but even that aside, such enemies although may not have legendary resistances, but charm and fear resistance/immunity is not that uncommon. Confusion can work more reliably than the rest and does not require any kind of synergy to make effective, but it's not the greatest spell in all honesty.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Regarding spell slots. Be a little more fluid in your planning of how you'll spend spell slots. For example, most of the adventuring days you might not even spend a single slot on counterspell. Then you might have a fight when you'll end up spending 3 rounds to counterspell in a row. Sometimes you might want to upcast a counterspell, even with your highest slot. Or dimension door. Sure, it's good to have it, but if you end up using all or some of haste, find steed, (longstrider if you take bard levels; I wont mention freedom of movement... oops, I just did), you might not need to spend slots and sp for a dimension door (or even for a misty step - oath spell, don't forget about it). Depending on how fights go you might need to smite less or more. There might be days when you will not even need to drop a damage AoE and days where you might need to drop 3 of them. I am not meaning to say that trying to form a resource management idea is the wrong way to go here. In fact, it's the smart thing to do. I am cautioning you against overestimating the accuracy of your predictions, exactly because there are many unknown variables play ball here. So use your predictions as a reference point, but don't let them make all the decisions for you. Playing with spell points helps a lot, but I would also suggest adopting a stingy mentality as far as spending resources goes when playing a sorcadin (though don't be afraid to upcast certain spells when it's worth it).


    Edit:
    1) Decide on shadow blade vs haste. And be sure about whether you will end up involving holy weapon or not. Once you decide on these two, things will roll more naturally.

    2) If someone else can grab revivify or raise dead, let them. If they are skeptical about it, start whining about how few spells a sorcerer gets. At least that's what I would do.

    3) If you are looking at taking both revivify and spirit guardians, an idea could be to take 9 crown paladin levels. You get both spells without needing to spend precious sorc slots on them, you get aura of vitality and dispel magic as well (and elemental weapon, which although not the greatest spell, it has synergy with gfb), and you get a concentration-free solid control option in your CD (which is amazing if you are the sole tank in your party; not that great if you are sharing the tanking duties). Probably not what you are looking for, just throwing it out there as food for thought.
    You make some good points.

    Boss Encounter:
    So I did a little more digging and the biggest drawback about Contagion seems to be the number of legendary creatures that are immune to the poisoned condition mid-late game. From DnD beyond about 50% of the legendary creatures from lvl 10 and upwards are immune to the poisoned condition.

    I totally agree with the Wrathful Smite, definitely a useful spell in the early game against difficult monsters that doesnt have legendary resistances. The Bless spell however is nice, but is it really worth concentrating on a 1st lvl spell at high lvl during legendary boss fights? Losing concentration shouldn't really be an issue with Resilient CON + Aura of Protection. With a starting stat of 16 CON (+3 modifier), the CON save will be 6 + 5 + 3 = 14. Which means a 100% guaranteed save on a 15. That is 30 damage guaranteed save. Add maybe a few magical items into the mix Cloak of Protection/Ring of Protection and thats a guaranteed save of 17, aka 34 damage.

    -----------------------------------------

    Horde Encounter:
    Careful spell is definitely a nice addition when you cant blast with Fireball/Synaptic Static, but has a few drawbacks. The first one being its spell selection is very limited (basically only Hypnotic Pattern, Fear and Synaptic Static where you do take some damage but avoid the debuff) and the 2nd being that you cant include yourself. The 2nd drawback might not seem like a big deal since you normally can just move 30 feet away before casting, but if you are restrained or perhaps surrounded by many creatures you will provoke lots of opportunity attacks if you try and get away.

    As for Spirit Guardians i would think that it has other applications other than just against hordes? What if there is a Boss encounter with supporting creatures. Then Spirit Guardians would deal a lot more damage than a Haste would. Potentially since the duration is 10 minutes you might squeeze in 2-3 combats against normal foes for some resource economic. In addition Spirit guardians does make it difficult for enemies to get away from you, where dashing out often seems to be the only option.

    -----------------------------------------

    Few strong enemies (No legendary resistance):
    You make some good points, i had totally forgotten about this encounter type. I totally agree Hold Monster and Banishment are very solid options in this scenario. Particularly upcasting to making them stick to some of them. Im curious which spell do you think is better Hold Monster or Banishment? I was first inclined to say Hold Monster because of the neat combo you can do as a Sorcadin, but Banishment totally removes them from the fight all together and isn't that better than dealing pure damage?

    There is also another spell that might be beneficial in this category and that is Synaptic Static. Depending on what creatures you meet of coarse, but if your up against brutes as you call them Synaptic Static might have the potential to change the fight, and is particularly effective because it doesnt require concentration and brutes usually have a very bad intelligence save.

    -----------------------------------------

    Ranged options:
    In certain situation particularly in the early game when you don't have many fancy spells, a ranged option seem quite necessary to have. Its important to note that when looking for a ranged cantrip its range needs to be sufficient enough that its worth it. I see only two options that has a range of 120. Fire Bolt and Chill Touch. Of the two I'm inclined to say that Chill Touch seems to be the best option. It deals slightly less damage than Fire Bolt, but in return it deals necrotic instead of fire (less resisted) and also has some minor bonuses. What do you think? whats your preferred ranged option?

    -----------------------------------------

    Lastly I've been thinking about the Silence spell for a while and I think it is way underrated as a Sorcadin. You have the option to Quicken a Silence spell against a spellcaster, then follow it up with a grapple. This will leave the spellcaster utter useless and cant even get away with teleportation spells which requires a verbal component. Spellcasters are also normally medium sized and have have terrible STR and decent DEX but no proficiency in either Athletics or Acrobatics. This makes them an easy target especially once you pick up the extra attack. Additionally if you have the subtle spell metamagic you can even cast spells while grappling inside the Silence. Imagine fighting against a Lich, this would end the fight before it even had started. His only option without spells would be Paralyzing Touch which you can counteract with a Subtle Shield spell. What do you think am i missing something or is the Silence spell just underrated?
    Last edited by Swosh; 2019-06-18 at 12:30 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •