Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Benny89]

I was theory crafting about a Nova build because of other thread and I came up with the following 2 combos:

1. The Shadow Blade Build:

Paladin 6/12 Sorcerer/2 Fighter.

What we will do is to abuse Shadow Blade from level 7 slot which will deal 5d8 damage + our stat + Smite. Then we add Quicken Booming Blade with Shadow Blade for extra 5d8 + 3d8 + stat + Smite and finish our turn with Action Surge for 2 extra 5d8 + stat + Smites attacks.

For this Build I would Chose Vengeance or Devotion. Both are great, both increase chance to hit, Devotion more and Vengeance offering more chance for crit hit, which will work nicely with 5 attacks we can do in our second turn.

So first turn you will want to summon Shadow blade and attack two times, second turn you cast VoE if there is no Dim Light to get advantage from and attack 2 times. This give you 4x 5d8 + 7 +5d8 attacks. With Devotion you could do Sacred Weapon + Shadow Blade
and next turn attack 3 times with Quicken Cantrip. So VoE allows you for more DPR in first 2 turns, but if there is Dim Light - Sacred Weapon + Advantage will give you more benefit. Anyway in second turn you want to use Action Surge and Nova your target with your Shadow Blade, dealing around 270 Nova damage. After first turn you just go 2 attacks + Quicken BB, which will still deal insane damage with Shadow Blade.

If you crit with Shadow Blade, that is whooping 10d8 + 10d8 from Smite.

I would take Variant Human because this build is quite ASI heavy and take at level 1 + 2 STR, level 4 +2 CHA, level 10 War Caster. And then level 14 + 2 STR/+2 CHA to get 20 STR for Shadow Blade or 20 CHA for spells DC- your decision. I would go first with Paladin to 6, then Sorcerer to 5 and then Fighter 2 and after that just straight Sorcerer.

For Sorcerer Origin I would probably go with Shadow for theme (Shadow Blade, Vengeance, Shadow magic, Darkness etc.) and potential Darkness + Darkvision combo (good when fighting vs enemy melee and range groups). Plus you get Shadow Hund who can force disadvantage on one enemy and thus making it easier for you to Do Hold Person/Monster Combo and delete him with Shadow Blade + Smites crits.

Downside: ASI heavy and no 7th level spells (though we will sue 7th level slot for Shadow Blade anyway). Melee focused.

2. Hexsorcadin Build:

The other build for Sorcadin is to be SAD CHA:

Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 13. This way you get SAD CHA and you take more interesting feats. This works best with Half-Elf as you won't suffer from ASI lost because you can focus on CHA instead of both STR/DEX and CHA when Vuman is imo better (First Build). Here I would take Divine Sorcerer (Vengeance here is no brainer as you get triple advantage) and to grab Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians and Holy Weapon.

With Holy Weapon you will deal 3d8 + stat + Smite damage from your attacks and 3d8 + stat + 3d8 + Smite from Quicken BB. It's not as good as Shadow Blade, you lose 6d8 DPR damage but you have better advantage so imo it balance itself. No Action Surge so your 1st turn Nova after buffing will be lower but your crit chance will be higher but crit damage will be little lower. But you also get 7th level spells.

Downside: No Shadow Blade cheese, lower DPR, no Darkness + Darkvision combo, no insane Nova.



So in short:

Shadow Blade for Vumans for maximum Nova damage and highest DPR. Requires investment in both CHA and STR/DEX.

Hexsorcadin for Half Elfs for maximum crit chance and SAD CHA.

Both Sorcadin builds should provide extreme damage potential.

[Mitsu]

I just read that Guide fully, good stuff! Although I think nowadays that 1 level Hexblade dip is quite strong, eliminating need to invest in STR or DEX, especially for Paladin 6/X Sorcadin builds.

So think this opens two quite potent builds:

Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 13 - 20 CHA + War Caster at level 11 with Vuman, giving you 2 attacks with 20 CHA, +5 Aura and max spell stat. After level 11 we have all options open- Mobile, Inspiring Leader, Lucky etc. No need to waste ASI on STR or DEX. I love Mobile for Twinning Booming Blade vs 2 enemies close to me and then moving away from them. Good stuff. And we get Armor of Agathys from level 7 slot for extra 35 HP. Combining that with Inspiring Leader at level 20 you can have bonus of total 60 extra temp points. Better - if you use Inspiring Leader after you use Armor of Agathys (it's not easy, but possible)- you can cover it's temp HP with IL temp HP and if you get hit- Armor of Agathys still kicks as "If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have them, it takes 5 cold damage". Even without that extra 50-60 Hi points is nothing to sneeze about for tank Sorcadin.

Another one is:

Paladin 12/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 7 with PAM. This gives IDS, aura of Courage, more tankiness, better LDH (55 HP) and PAM bonus attack. It's more melee than caster but we still have 7 sorc points for 3x Quicken Hold Person or 7x Twinned Booming Blades when dealing with hordes. More ASI heavy, but again, Variant Human comes with help. Level 1- PAM, Level 4 +2 CHA, level 9 War Caster, level 13 +2 CHA. IDS + PAM is great. We could go with Paladin 11 but we push last ASI too far imo.

We can fit all that extra great feats because of ONE level Hexblade dip.

[Swosh]

Paladin 6/12 Sorcerer/2 Fighter

If your going to mix inn fighter i would make it 6/11/3. Gaining that Precision Attack manuver is extremly good.

Downside: ASI heavy and no 7th level spells (though we will sue 7th level slot for Shadow Blade anyway). Melee focused.

You are also forgetting the downside of not beeing able to use a magical weapon, especially late game if you get your hands on a legendary weapon this is a significant drawback.

[Benny89]

If your going to mix inn fighter i would make it 6/11/3. Gaining that Precision Attack manuver is extremly good.


You are also forgetting the downside of not beeing able to use a magical weapon, especially late game if you get your hands on a legendary weapon this is a significant drawback.

Yeah, the downside is that if you get like really strong melee weapon the Shadow Blade might not be best option. For example if you get a Longsword with anything 2k8 as bonus damage, dealing total of 3k8 damage as opposed to Shadow Blade 5k8 damage- Haste would be better option for Concentration for extra attack with Smite and provide extra crit chance during fight. But that is at DM-mercy as opposed to ready Shadow Blade.

But still it's hard to match 5k8 damage of Shadow Blade. Holy Weapon which require Divine Soul adds just 2d8 radiant damage.

Shadow Blade is very strong but requires a lot of ASI because you can't use it with Hex Warrior. So it requires investment in Both CHA and STR/DEX, sadly that pushes maximizng Aura and Attack Stat.

It's hard to chose Between Pala 6/1 Hex/13 Sorc and Pala 6/12 Sorc/2 Fighter. One is maxed out at level 11, the other has his first 20 in stat at level 10 but you either have 18 in two stats (+2 CHA, +2 STR, War Caster) or one in 16. So at best you will have 20 STR, 18 CHA and War Caster at level (1, 4, 10, 14) 14 and 20 STR, 20 CHA + War Caster at level 20. While Hex Sorcadin will have 2 last ASI to get some great feats as cherry on top.

Shadow Blade is definitely super strong but one Legendary weapon can shift Haste back into being better option.

Also it's worth to mention that you can max Shadow Blade at level 16 (Pala 6/Sorc 10), while you probably won't see Legendary Weapon till last levels.

I would have hard time deciding between Both Sorcadin Builds.


EDIT: Of course even if you Go Pala 6/Hex 1/Sorc 13 and max CHA- it's possible you will get Giant Belt anyway which will then make able to wield Shadow Blade too. But then you will ask yourself why you took Hexblade :)

[Swosh]

Its not just about damage, you are forgetting about the attack bonus. It dosnt matter how much damage you do if you cant hit your target. A legendary weapon normally has +3 to hit which is absolutely ridiculous.... even an epic weapon has +2 hit which is rather a big loss. Just think about the difference between 16 str and 20 str thats the same as +2 to hit and dmg.

[Mernix]

I've read many guides on the net and this one is not only useful but it's also the first one to make me laugh Thank you!

PS: Just registered to make this post because I think you deserved it.

[Sprodel]

Great guide Gastronomie, thanks! Helped me make a beastly character recently. I decided to go Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X.

I wanted to contribute a few notes. The thread is ducking huge though, I hope I amn't repeating things already said.

First, for the races section - Triton is a good pick for Sorcadin since its racial bonuses are +1 CON +1 STR +1 CHA, letting you get 8 8 8 16 16 16 at level 1. The racial spells don't have any special synergy, but they're not bad.

---

For my main note though - has anyone considered a HASTE build?
Everyone knows haste is strong. It's usually used by a caster on the melee character. But since we're both, I feel like it could be a considerable boon to Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 5+.

A build could involve:

Sword and board. Defense fighting style. Heavy armour. Have 19 AC to start (21 with better armour). Haste makes that 21 (or 23).
Haste also gives you advantage on dex saves. Relevant for AoE attacks if your DM has started using more of those vs you.
War Caster for advantage on concentration saves.

All these combined make it hard to break this Sorcadin's Haste concentration.
This effectively gives you extra attack at level 7. Or extra dash, disengage, hide, interact. AND double speed. As well as, as said above, being significantly tankier.
Twin to Haste your party's other melee character. Not to be underestimated.
Another cool note is Haste's action economy. It takes an action to cast but you can still, on that same turn, move double speed, attack (smite) and use a bonus action (quickened spell).
Note you can't GFB or BB on this extra attack.
The major drawback of this is it is a nonbo with Hold Person since Haste needs concentration. All the same, you could keep up Haste until you lose it or the time comes to nova. We can attack and smite twice but we can't crit-smite twice. Or... ask your DM if you can paralyse with Command... heh. "FREEZE!"
Another bit of jank: use the extra attack as you like but use your main action to use the dodge action, making you tanky as duck and still hit things.

[Mitsu]

Great guide Gastronomie, thanks! Helped me make a beastly character recently. I decided to go Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X.

I wanted to contribute a few notes. The thread is ducking huge though, I hope I amn't repeating things already said.

First, for the races section - Triton is a good pick for Sorcadin since its racial bonuses are +1 CON +1 STR +1 CHA, letting you get 8 8 8 16 16 16 at level 1. The racial spells don't have any special synergy, but they're not bad.

---

For my main note though - has anyone considered a HASTE build?
Everyone knows haste is strong. It's usually used by a caster on the melee character. But since we're both, I feel like it could be a considerable boon to Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 5+.

A build could involve:

Sword and board. Defense fighting style. Heavy armour. Have 19 AC to start (21 with better armour). Haste makes that 21 (or 23).
Haste also gives you advantage on dex saves. Relevant for AoE attacks if your DM has started using more of those vs you.
War Caster for advantage on concentration saves.

All these combined make it hard to break this Sorcadin's Haste concentration.
This effectively gives you extra attack at level 7. Or extra dash, disengage, hide, interact. AND double speed. As well as, as said above, being significantly tankier.
Twin to Haste your party's other melee character. Not to be underestimated.
Another cool note is Haste's action economy. It takes an action to cast but you can still, on that same turn, move double speed, attack (smite) and use a bonus action (quickened spell).
Note you can't GFB or BB on this extra attack.
The major drawback of this is it is a nonbo with Hold Person since Haste needs concentration. All the same, you could keep up Haste until you lose it or the time comes to nova. We can attack and smite twice but we can't crit-smite twice. Or... ask your DM if you can paralyse with Command... heh. "FREEZE!"
Another bit of jank: use the extra attack as you like but use your main action to use the dodge action, making you tanky as duck and still hit things.

There is no Haste build. Every Sorcadin can use Haste. It's good self buff especially when your enemy has Legendary Resistance so Quicken Hold is out of question. Then it's quite standard tactic to just Haste your Self and go ham with 3 attacks + Quicken BB with Smites attached vs one Boss.

Though I would not recommend using Haste for anything else than one boss. Vs group of enemies you are much better using stuff like Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians etc. instead of one more attack for increased DPR. But it's great on bosses.

Also if you take Sword and Shield build I myself prefer Dueling to Defense. +1 AC is a lot but you have so much AC anyway as heavy armored Sorcadin. +2 to damage is a lot on 1-10 levels and still always adds up on higher levels. With 20 in stat it's always +7 to damage instead of +5. Though of course Defense is great option too. Both are great really. I just like more damage :).

So while Haste is good I don't recommend using it for anything else than BBEG "smite mode" with Legendary Resistance. Even then you might be better with some other spells like Animated Objects, Holy Weapon etc. And if BBEG does not have Legendary Resistance- it's almost always better to Quicken Hold on it first.

[Corran]

For my main note though - has anyone considered a HASTE build?

Offensively, haste will give you one extra weapon attack and increased movement speed (which you can share with your mount).

To make the most of that extra attack, you need things that add to it. Since IDS is out of the picture (or incredibly delayed that it is effectively out of the picture), you must count on things like GWM and VoE. To make good use of GWM you need extra attack (extra attack is also important for when you want to go nova). Given that you also get access to the mount at the same level, and also how important aura of courage protection is generally, but also for keeping your concentration on haste specifically, I'd say that you need at least 6 paladin levels (+resilient con) to get a good base on top of which you can use haste. Since you want to cast haste when you also use VoE, that means that ideally you will use an action for casting haste (since VoE takes a bonus action, so no quickening haste). That opens the possibility of twinning haste to include an ally (rogue/ sharpshooter archer/ GWMaster warrior are all excellent candidates), which multiplies the value you will get out of this casting (alternatively you can go devotion for sacred weapon and count on quickening haste, but I prefer vengeance for a hasted GWM sorcadin). All that said, even with a concentration of +9 or better, you might still want to be careful about when choosing to concentrate on haste, because certain enemies can still do to you enough damage to challenge the best concentration checks (think twice when you are twinning it). So during these times it might just be better to fall back on sth like a quickened bless.

[Mitsu]

Offensively, haste will give you one extra weapon attack and increased movement speed (which you can share with your mount).

To make the most of that extra attack, you need things that add to it. Since IDS is out of the picture (or incredibly delayed that it is effectively out of the picture), you must count on things like GWM and VoE. To make good use of GWM you need extra attack (extra attack is also important for when you want to go nova). Given that you also get access to the mount at the same level, and also how important aura of courage is generally, but also for keeping your concentration on haste specifically, I'd say that you need at least 6 paladin levels (+resilient con) to get a good base on top of which you can use haste. Since you want to cast haste when you also use VoE, that means that ideally you will use an action for casting haste (since VoE takes a bonus action, so no quickening haste). That opens the possibility of twinning haste to include an ally (rogue/ sharpshooter archer/ GWMaster warrior are all excellent candidates), which multiplies the value you will get out of this casting (alternatively you can go devotion for sacred weapon and count on quickening haste, but I prefer vengeance for a hasted GWM sorcadin). All that said, even with a concentration of +9 or better, you might still want to be careful about when choosing to concentrate on haste, because certain enemies can still do to you enough damage to challenge the best concentration checks (think twice when you are twinning it). So during these times it might just be better to fall back on sth like a quickened bless.

To follow that, you will usually have either 14 or 16 CON. Which is +2 or +3. With 20 CHA Aura you will have +5. So you probably look at something like +7/8 to Conc save. With War Caster (since this is Sorcadin thread) you look at advantage and +7 to save. It's good but not enough to feel 100% sure about saves.

Hence why as Variant Human Sorcadin who wants to Haste a lot (I like Haste) I like to recommend taking Shield Master at first level. Reason is: you usually will face two kind of attacks that will deal a lot of damage to you- standard hits/multiattacks or some sort of Breath/Burst abilities/spells usually requiring DEX save. First kind can be countered by high AC which Sorcadin has plenty (Plate + Shield + Shield of Faith + Shield = easy 27 AC. It only goes up with magical ones) and second one by DEX saves. You have only +5 to DEX save but with Haste on you have also advantage and with Shield Master you also have +2 min to DEX save if you are the only target of attack and if you succed- you don't take any damage instead of half. This combined really helps with keeping Haste on if you want to. I like Haste for full 4 attacks per turn with Smites when I can't Quicken Hold spell.

The other option is to take RES (CON) instead of Shield Master and just enjoy advantage on Conc save + Prof + Aura on it.

There is also chance you can get Amulet of Health on your journey- then it doesn't matter if you have odd or even stat in CON - take RES (CON) :).

[Corran]

To follow that, you will usually have either 14 or 16 CON. Which is +2 or +3. With 20 CHA Aura you will have +5. So you probably look at something like +7/8 to Conc save. With War Caster (since this is Sorcadin thread) you look at advantage and +7 to save. It's good but not enough to feel 100% sure about saves.

I dont think that warcaster is all that necessary for sorcadins who are not using a shield. I think resilient con is better in that case (I value the stat bump and actual con save proficiency more than the ability to use BB with OA's, espceially if I assume GWM and given that I can also smite with my OA's -not that I dont think that BB OA's are good, they are great, but I value more the benefits of resilient when I dont need warcaster to lift off casting limitations). And I am leaning to think that taking both of these feats might be a bit unecessary (or at least that with resilient con taken and no shield in my off hand, there are feats/ASI's that will profit us more than warcaster), at least when aura of protection is in play.

[Alucard89]

I dont think that warcaster is all that necessary for sorcadins who are not using a shield. I think resilient con is better in that case (I value the stat bump and actual con save proficiency more than the ability to use BB with OA's, espceially if I assume GWM and given that I can also smite with my OA's -not that I dont think that BB OA's are good, they are great, but I value more the benefits of resilient when I dont need warcaster to lift off casting limitations). And I am leaning to think that taking both of these feats might be a bit unecessary (or at least that with resilient con taken and no shield in my off hand, there are feats/ASI's that will profit us more than warcaster), at least when aura of protection is in play.

I agree that War Caster for Shield Sorcadins. I don't like GWM Sorcadins, they are great in late game where proficiency bonuses kick in but during 1-12 levels GWM is actually horrible when it comes to DPR and Smites, especially vs enemeis AC 17+ compare to 1h weapon, PAM or Dual Wielding. And since most Sorcadins invest in CHA first before attack stat (at least for 6/14 builds)- it takes really long for GWM to start offseting misses with it's damage as your attack stat is low. VoE helps but only vs boss and you don't have bosses everyday and Sacred Weapon while cool - makes you lose a lot of DPR in first turn where you could just already do 2 attacks + Quicken Spell. Not to mention 1h Sorcadins can always easy dip 1 level Hexblade for SAD CHA, while GWM Sorcadin would need 3 levels dip for same.

[Corran]

@Alucard89:
I agree with the vast majority of what you are saying. To nitpick, I'd say that I dont think that S&B sorcadins will do more damage than the ones with GWM (cause you can always not use the -5/+10 aspect of it when fighting sth against which you dont have an appropriately high enough hit chance), but I too think that s&b sorcadins are overall better.

The are a couple more tricks for a GWM sorcadin to get an accuracy boost, other than CD's, in greater invisibility (quickened or twinned), darkness (shadow & quickcned if allowed) and bless (quickened), and sometimes they might even get help with that from their allies. The problem though is how much they rely on sp to free up their action economy for GWM to find the room to shine. Also, the fact that they almost religiously have to commit their concentration for boosting GWM does not do them any favors, cause it makes them predicatble and one-dimensional.

The hold person combo can be somewhat situational depending on what kind of enemies the DM uses (it also has a small dependence on initiative, that is if you count on some of your allies' crits as well; and you probably should count on that as well, as otherwise it is probably an overkill and thus a careless use of resources). Hold monster addresses the targeting issue but it comes relatively late. The use of hold spells is significantly resource-consuming (cause you definitely want to quicken and almost certainly to upcast, and then to follow it up with smites too), and it also has significant anti-synergy with the -5/+10 aspect of GWM, which in combination with how resource intensive GWM sorcadins are (also, any time they are using hold, they are not concentrating on sth that boosts GWM), makes the hold combo better suited to s&b sorcadins (with extra attack obviously). Hold person can be quite good (depending on the enemies' chance to save; careful for magic/legendary resistance here) when you are facing 2-5 humanoids and it's a very though fight at the same time. Even still, depending on your oath, there might be better options (again, depending on the chance the enemies have to save against your DC). It's a cool trick to have in your backpocket, but be careful of its limitations (both practical and from a tactical optimization viewpoint).

[Alucard89]

The are a couple more tricks for a GWM sorcadin to get an accuracy boost, other than CD's, in greater invisibility (quickened or twinned), darkness (shadow & quickcned if allowed) and bless (quickened), and sometimes they might even get help with that from their allies. The problem though is how much they rely on sp to free up their action economy for GWM to find the room to shine. Also, the fact that they almost religiously have to commit their concentration for boosting GWM does not do them any favors, cause it makes them predicatble and one-dimensional.

Yeah, same problem I see with GWM Sorcadin. Their limited spells-known is already a HUGE battle between many top and best in game spells. Divine Soul Sorcerer adds even more to that list with Spirit Guardians, Holy Weapon, Heal etc. Picking spell just to be able to hit with your weapon is just imo too punishing for Sorcadins.

Of course I see how potent Sacred Weapon + Holy Weapon + GWM is but it's also costs full action and if when you are not using GWM (as you said) you are not really doing better damage than SnB.

But then SnB Sorcadin can always use Shadow Blade if he needs more damage for 3d8-5d8 physic melee damage to really cause some pain. And he can still smite and quicken cantrips with it. It comes with cost, but at least it doesn't have -5 to hit :).

Hold Person/Monster combo is great vs some non-Legendary enemies like enemy caster who can be bursted down fast in first turn with that. Also you can always use Spirit Guardians to try to burn Magic/Legendary resistances of boss before going for Hold spell.

It's not "all mighty auto kill" combo but you don't fight Legendary enemies everyday.

[Benny89]

I think this Guide needs to reevaluate Sorcere Origins now when we have also Divine Soul Sorcerer which combo great with Paladin, allowing to fill all the gaps and give back some lost Paladin spells due to multiclassing.

Divine Soul:

Not only 2k4 bonus to saves/attack is huge (and it's on short rest!) for 6/14 builds as you don't really have to waste it often and it's perfect to win that save where your +5 Aura did not help, but it gives access to some of best spells in game from Cleric List:

1. Spiritual Weapon- a great way to save your SPs and still have bonus attack damage. Casting from level 4 gives you 2d8 + 5 extra force damage, that is equivalent of Longsword + IDS bonus action attack and it comes well with Spirit Guardians, allowing you to use only two spells when fighting a great amount of enemies on front line, having 3 attacks vs every single target, while Dealing constant AOE damage around you and halfing their speed. Spell loses It's appeal imo on levels 15+ but you can always replace it later. But it's very good spell when you have 6/3 levels of Sorcadin and not enough SPs to waste on Quicken cantrips so Spiritual weapon works great. It's also force damage which is one of least resisted types in game.

2. Spirit Guardians. Imo Spirit Guardians > Fireball. Not only it's combined CC + Damage, it's also radiant, one of the least resisted damage types. It also makes terrain difficult 15 feet around you (awesome if you are tank) and it deals constant good damage to enemies around. It can also be used to burn Legendary/Magic Resistances of enemy, especially when you up cast it from higher slot. It scales great with higher spell slots. You can also pre-cast both Guardians and Spiritual Weapon before diving into enemy horde being a scary shining figure surrounded by deadly spiritual beings.

3. Holy Weapon- 1 hour superb buff to weapons. 2d8 extra radiant is great (because it's radiant) and it lasts 1 hour, meaning you can take it into multiple encounters. You can also Twin it so your other melee party member can have a boost to it's damage. Works great with 6/14 build extra attack + Quicken can trip allowing to add a 6d8 radiant damage per turn, which is stronger than extra max level Smite. And it can crit for respectable extra 4d8.

4. Heal - a great spell if you are solo tank with 6/14 build. Quicken Heal + Lay Down Hands (35 heal) is easy 1 turn 105 heal on demand. It can also be twinned to burst heal your allies. It's like having maxed out Lay Down Hands again!

5. Some other honorable mentions: Death Ward, Revivify, Healing Ward (though most useful on lower levels) Mass Healing Ward, Sanctuary (Twinned or Quicken for emergency).

It's also worth to mention a level 7 Conjure Celestial. I know that Sorcerer has superb level 7 options, however with additional of Battleforce Angel (CR5 Celestial) added, you can conjure a great combatant (66 HP, 18 AC, Multiattack 1k10 +3 + 4d8 + 1d4 radiant, flying, and aura that gives allies around 1d4 to save and attack rolls. Resistant to fire and radiant. And you can give it shield for 20 AC). Not strongest level 7 option but worth of keep in mind. It also adds a lot of flavour, utility, support, extra body on battlefield. It also benfits from your Aura +5.


I think Divine Soul is right now a better option that Shadow Sorcerer. I still think Darkness combo is great, but I would prefer 8/10 times to have Spirit Guardians around me as Conc spell vs Darkness when fighting group of enemies. For single target I would always prefer to have VoE + Holy Weapon, Shadow Blade or Haste. Shadow Hound- I have love/hate relationship with it. It's nice to force disadvantage on save throws on one target, but not only it costs 3 SPs but also takes bonus action to cast. And it doesn't scale well on higher tiers where it can easy die on 1 turn. I am not sure how effective it is in real-gameplay scenarios.

Draconic Sorcerer is nice for +5 damage to fire, but I would honestly prefer to Quicken BB instead of GFB (thunder is almost not resisted at all) as 6/14 build and Divine Soul adds access to a lot of radiant damage which is much less resisted than fire. With Draconic you lock yourself into "either use fire-base spells or I wasted my subclass".

[Swosh]

Draconic Sorcerer is nice for +5 damage to fire, but I would honestly prefer to Quicken BB instead of GFB (thunder is almost not resisted at all) as 6/14 build and Divine Soul adds access to a lot of radiant damage which is much less resisted than fire. With Draconic you lock yourself into "either use fire-base spells or I wasted my subclass".

You forgot to mention the extra HP, which compensates for the sorcerers low HP pool, aswell as the extra resistance to one element.

The drawback with going Divine Soul is that their lvl 6 ability is quite useless, and that the cleric spell list is arguably the worst spell list of the full casters. So in general its:
- Access to the Cleric spell list
- 1 more Spell Known
- Favored by the Gods (1 Charge only)

vs

- Extra HP (14 HP if you go lvl 14)
- Resistance to Fire Damage
- +5 to damage with fire (Fireball / Greenflame blade mostly)


Yeah its a though call which is best, if only they made a subclass that gives us access to the wizard spell list instead this would be a no-brainer.

[Mitsu]

You forgot to mention the extra HP, which compensates for the sorcerers low HP pool, aswell as the extra resistance to one element.

The drawback with going Divine Soul is that their lvl 6 ability is quite useless, and that the cleric spell list is arguably the worst spell list of the full casters. So in general its:
- Access to the Cleric spell list
- 1 more Spell Known
- Favored by the Gods (1 Charge only)

vs

- Extra HP (14 HP if you go lvl 14)
- Resistance to Fire Damage
- +5 to damage with fire (Fireball / Greenflame blade mostly)


Yeah its a though call which is best, if only they made a subclass that gives us access to the wizard spell list instead this would be a no-brainer.

Extra HP from 14 levels (if 6/14) is imo useless. Totally not worth whole subclass. Heal spell alone from Divine Soul is emergency 70 HP on bonus action. I would take 2k4 save on short rest over 14 HP any day.

Resistance to Fire Damage is ok, but with it's only one element. I think its a good, but again- nothing superb.

+5 to damage is only +5 to damage, and it's damage to one of two most resistance/immune damage types. Radiant damage is better than +5 to most common resisted dmg imo. Also It's only really good on low levels. On higher levels +5 dmg to Fireball is not really that good vs having access to for example Death Ward which can save you from death spells.

I agree that level 6 Divine Soul is meh, but that imo totally does not change fact that you have best of both worlds using this subclass. And you can get back many of Paladin spells you lose through multiclass.

Also is +5 to GFB is worth Holy Weapon +2d8 radiant damage to all your attacks? You can't have Holy Weapon as Draconic Sorc. If you want melee boost- Holy Weapon is much better than that.

[Swosh]

Extra HP from 14 levels (if 6/14) is imo useless. Totally not worth whole subclass. Heal spell alone from Divine Soul is emergency 70 HP on bonus action. I would take 2k4 save on short rest over 14 HP any day.

Resistance to Fire Damage is ok, but with it's only one element. I think its a good, but again- nothing superb.

+5 to damage is only +5 to damage, and it's damage to one of two most resistance/immune damage types. Radiant damage is better than +5 to most common resisted dmg imo. Also It's only really good on low levels. On higher levels +5 dmg to Fireball is not really that good vs having access to for example Death Ward which can save you from death spells.

I agree that level 6 Divine Soul is meh, but that imo totally does not change fact that you have best of both worlds using this subclass. And you can get back many of Paladin spells you lose through multiclass.

Also is +5 to GFB is worth Holy Weapon +2d8 radiant damage to all your attacks? You can't have Holy Weapon as Draconic Sorc. If you want melee boost- Holy Weapon is much better than that.

I wouldnt call the extra HP boost useless, but i totally agree its not worth a hole subclass just on its own. Holy weapon is nice, the damage might not be spectacular but since it lasts 1 hour and as you mentioned its radient damage (way less resisted) it will save you lots of spell slots. Do keep in mind tho that you have to concentrate on it as opposed to the +5 damage you get from draconic, so your concentration will be tied up. As for other paladin spells, im not sure you have the spells known to acctually pick that many cleric spells, the sorcerer has a way better spell list than the cleric and your allready short on spells known so most of your spells will probably come from the sorcerer list instead.

I think the fire resistance should get a bit more credit it can be quite valuable, especially if your reaction is tied up by other means like "shield", "counterspell", "absorb elements" on another element, or used an opportunity attack. It will also save you spell slots (you dont have to use absorb elements on fire).

[Storyteller_Arc]

Yeah, the Guide is out of date, that's already been established, and it's hard to update a guide without fully playing a build out and trying out the options. Theory is all well and good, but actually playing it out is an entirely different matter, and Gastronomie very much wants to play around with the new material before updating it to include the newest changes.

I will say though, that as awesome as the 'Hold Person + Smite' combo might for nova damage, it's probably not the Sorcadin's best trick any more, so they should probably think of editing the guide so such a combo doesn't have such a heavy emphasis as it currently does

[Lysimarchos]

Yeah, the Guide is out of date, that's already been established, and it's hard to update a guide without fully playing a build out and trying out the options. Theory is all well and good, but actually playing it out is an entirely different matter, and Gastronomie very much wants to play around with the new material before updating it to include the newest changes.

I will say though, that as awesome as the 'Hold Person + Smite' combo might for nova damage, it's probably not the Sorcadin's best trick any more, so they should probably think of editing the guide so such a combo doesn't have such a heavy emphasis as it currently does

What is the best Nova combo right now? Something with Shadow Blade?

[Alucard89]

What is the best Nova combo right now? Something with Shadow Blade?

No, he didn't say that Hold-> Smite is not best nova, it's just not best trick anymore as there are more great tricks now like Spirit Guardians (Quicken from higher slot) or Quicken Heal + Lay Down Hands for huge heal burst etc.

Shadow Blade is overrated. Any weapon with +2 and at least 1k8 extra damage will serve you better than Shadow Blade, especially now that Sorcadins have again access to 1 hour Holy Weapon buff.

If you want some comparsion: Shadow Blade from 5th (because I don't know who would waste 7th level slot for Shadow Blade) slot 1 turn:

Bonus Action- summoning Shadow Blade
1st Attack: 4d8 + 7 (5 stat + dueling) + 5d8 (smite)
2nd Attack 4d8 + 7 + 5d8

Total 1st turn: 2x (25 + 22,5) = 95

Quicken Hold - > 2 attacks (simple longsword)

1st attack: 2d8 + 7 + 10d8
2nd attack: 2d8 + 7 + 10d8

Total 1st turn: 2x (16 + 45) = 122

Now let's say you got some decent magic longsword (+2 and extra 1k8 damage). Quicken Hold:

Total: 2x (2d8 + 2d8 + 9 + 10d8) = 144.

And now same Magic longsword with Holy Weapon spell (which last 1 hour vs Shadow Blade 1 minute)

Bonus Action: Cast Holy Weapon
1st attack: 1d8 + 1d8 + 2d8 + 9 + 5d8
2nd attack: 1d8 + 1d8 + 2d8 + 9 + 5d8
Total: 2x (4d8 + 9 + 5d8) = 99

Which is 4 points better than Shadow Blade, so even with +1 sword that has extra damage (or Flame Tongue) we would have better damage than Shadow Blade, and not for 1 encounter but probably for multiple as Holy Weapon is 1 hour duration.

Summary:

Of course Hold may fail save but if we talk about highest Nova, it's still Quicken Hold for Sorcadin when it comes to melee. Quicken Hold also get's double to quadruple value if enemy fails-> because EVERY PARTY MEMBER till held enemy turn will have auto-crits on it. Shadow Blade only benefits you, nobody else.

Quick is more of "high risk" -> "high reward". If enemy won't free himself from hold at the end of his turn -> next turn you doing 2 attacks + Quicken cantrip will skyrocket Nova damage again.

There is also Quicken Animated Objects that adds a big bonus to your Nova Damage too each turn and will benefit party more than your personal Shadow Blade due to extra bodies on battlefield. And of course when it comes to high DPR- upcasted Spirit Guardians are nasty.

[Mitsu]

If one goes 6/14 build with Vengeance Paladin + Divine Soul - do you think Dueling is better/as good option as Defense fighting style?

Sword n Board STR build.

[Benny89]

If one goes 6/14 build with Vengeance Paladin + Divine Soul - do you think Dueling is better/as good option as Defense fighting style?

Sword n Board STR build.

It's stricky because one is clearly better in first half of game, and other in second half of game.

From level 1-12 I would say that +2 to damage if you go 6/14 build (so you have extra attack + quicken cantrip) is better that +1 AC, especially in levels 1-8.

However from level 12-20 the more and more of your damage will be coming from spells/enchantments. Extra +4 to +6 damage won't really make much difference, while +1 to AC if you will already have like 22 AC (Let's say Plate +1 and shield +1 or some item of protection) the +1 to AC will add up and get more benefit.

So it depends if you want to "aim" only at end-game or through whole career.

I personally prefer Dueling as it's really significant boost in first half of game, while +1 to AC is strong at end-game, you can mostly get that extra AC from items.

[Mitsu]

I wonder if it's worth to dip that 2 levels fighter in 6/14 build for Action Surge.

Ideal would be to first get to 6/6 or 6/8 as Pala/Sorc and then dip 2 levels of Fighter.

Reason is that then your Nova damage in first turn will go super high, especially if you use Shadow Blade:

If we summon 7th level Shadow Blade and use Action Surge in same turn we could see a 4x (10d8 +7) = 40d8 + 28 = 208 Nova. If we could pre-cast it and use Quicken BB in same turn: (40d8 + 28) + 13d8 + 7 for total of 273 dmg.

It's all theory craft and there is also accuracy but point is: there is a lot of boost to get from Action Surge.

You can also use it for casting.

Question is: Is Action surge worth a 7th level spells and 9th level slot for upcasting (or smites)?

6/14 are already more melee than caster Sorcadins so it may makes sense to boost what they do best. On the other hand- there are many good 7th level spells and 9th level slot comes in handy for upcasting some of best scalling spells.

[jdolch]

Does it make sense to take both Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade ? Seems like a wasted cantrip, since i can't use both and on most levels you don't have enough Sorcery Points to spam either anyway

[Corran]

Does it make sense to take both Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade ?

Yes. GFB will be often used instead of the attack action (assuming you have the chance to apply secondary damage, or that you are of 11+ character level and you are fighting sth that is not resistant/immune to fire and also assuming you don't want to go nova) and instead of BB (because applying secondary damage from GFB is much easier than in the BB's case). BB still makes a great pick because it upgrades significantly your OA's (assuming you have warcaster, so essentially assuming a S&B build).

[Mitsu]

Does it make sense to take both Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade ? Seems like a wasted cantrip, since i can't use both and on most levels you don't have enough Sorcery Points to spam either anyway

Yes, because it GFB even on 6/14 build can still provide a better damage to two targets than 2 attacks, unless you start to get some decent magic weapons with some bonus damage dices.

Example: you fight vs two targets.

You attack one target with one attack and second one with second.

That is (longsword +1) 1d8 + 5 (assuming 18 STR) dmg to each, so 9.5 to each one.

You can also attack one target with two attacks which makes it 19 dmg to one target.

Now if you use GFB on them, the first target (assuming level 5) will be hit for:

1d8 + 5 + 1d8 = 14 dmg

and second target for:

1d8 + 4 (assuming 18 CHA) for 8.5 dmg.

So we dealt more 4.5 more dmg to first target and 1 dmg less to secondary target vs scenario when we attack two targets seperately. Overall dmg was increased by 3.5.

But two attacks are still better vs one target.

Now level 11, assuming you still have only Longsword +1 (you CHA should be 20 by now):

You attack two targets with two attacks, dealing again 9.5 dmg to each. Single target still 19 dmg.

No we use GFB on first one for 1d8 + 5 + 2d8 = 18.5 dmg and secondary target for 2d8 + 5, so 14 dmg.

Clearly GFB is better to hit when there is secondary enemy next to primary. You lose onlyt 0.5 dmg but deal damage to second one.

However situation changes if you have for example a Longsword +1 with extra 1d8 dmg from let's say cold:

Suddenly seperate targets damage is 14 dmg per hit and single target dmg is 4d8 + 10, so 28. So GFB may still be better vs two targets, however with GFB there one downside: it's 100% dmg or 0% dmg on miss. With two attacks, you can always deal at least 50% of your average damage if one attack miss, but second hit.

So my conclusion:

Use GFB vs two targets if you don't have bonus dmg magic weapon and enemies are low AC.

Use extra attack vs single target to increase chance for dealing damage at all.

When you face two enemies with decent AC and you have weapon with bonus damage die: use seperate attack for each one (if you have to) to increase chance of dealing dmg in your turn.

And if you have decent magic weapon it's better to focus one target and kill it faster than focusing on two and spreading damage. Enemy even with 1 HP left still has full action against you. Dead enemy has none.

[Klorox]

Yes, because it GFB even on 6/14 build can still provide a better damage to two targets than 2 attacks, unless you start to get some decent magic weapons with some bonus damage dices.

Example: you fight vs two targets.

You attack one target with one attack and second one with second.

That is (longsword +1) 1d8 + 5 (assuming 18 STR) dmg to each, so 9.5 to each one.

You can also attack one target with two attacks which makes it 19 dmg to one target.

Now if you use GFB on them, the first target (assuming level 5) will be hit for:

1d8 + 5 + 1d8 = 14 dmg

and second target for:

1d8 + 4 (assuming 18 CHA) for 8.5 dmg.

So we dealt more 4.5 more dmg to first target and 1 dmg less to secondary target vs scenario when we attack two targets seperately. Overall dmg was increased by 3.5.

But two attacks are still better vs one target.

Now level 11, assuming you still have only Longsword +1 (you CHA should be 20 by now):

You attack two targets with two attacks, dealing again 9.5 dmg to each. Single target still 19 dmg.

No we use GFB on first one for 1d8 + 5 + 2d8 = 18.5 dmg and secondary target for 2d8 + 5, so 14 dmg.

Clearly GFB is better to hit when there is secondary enemy next to primary. You lose onlyt 0.5 dmg but deal damage to second one.

However situation changes if you have for example a Longsword +1 with extra 1d8 dmg from let's say cold:

Suddenly seperate targets damage is 14 dmg per hit and single target dmg is 4d8 + 10, so 28. So GFB may still be better vs two targets, however with GFB there one downside: it's 100% dmg or 0% dmg on miss. With two attacks, you can always deal at least 50% of your average damage if one attack miss, but second hit.

So my conclusion:

Use GFB vs two targets if you don't have bonus dmg magic weapon and enemies are low AC.

Use extra attack vs single target to increase chance for dealing damage at all.

When you face two enemies with decent AC and you have weapon with bonus damage die: use seperate attack for each one (if you have to) to increase chance of dealing dmg in your turn.

And if you have decent magic weapon it's better to focus one target and kill it faster than focusing on two and spreading damage. Enemy even with 1 HP left still has full action against you. Dead enemy has none.

Thank you. ❤️

[jdolch]

Yes. GFB will be often used instead of the attack action (assuming you have the chance to apply secondary damage, or that you are of 11+ character level and you are fighting sth that is not resistant/immune to fire and also assuming you don't want to go nova) and instead of BB (because applying secondary damage from GFB is much easier than in the BB's case). BB still makes a great pick because it upgrades significantly your OA's (assuming you have warcaster, so essentially assuming a S&B build).

Yes, because it GFB even on 6/14 build can still provide a better damage to two targets than 2 attacks, unless you start to get some decent magic weapons with some bonus damage dices.

Spoiler

Show

Example: you fight vs two targets.

You attack one target with one attack and second one with second.

That is (longsword +1) 1d8 + 5 (assuming 18 STR) dmg to each, so 9.5 to each one.

You can also attack one target with two attacks which makes it 19 dmg to one target.

Now if you use GFB on them, the first target (assuming level 5) will be hit for:

1d8 + 5 + 1d8 = 14 dmg

and second target for:

1d8 + 4 (assuming 18 CHA) for 8.5 dmg.

So we dealt more 4.5 more dmg to first target and 1 dmg less to secondary target vs scenario when we attack two targets seperately. Overall dmg was increased by 3.5.

But two attacks are still better vs one target.

Now level 11, assuming you still have only Longsword +1 (you CHA should be 20 by now):

You attack two targets with two attacks, dealing again 9.5 dmg to each. Single target still 19 dmg.

No we use GFB on first one for 1d8 + 5 + 2d8 = 18.5 dmg and secondary target for 2d8 + 5, so 14 dmg.

Clearly GFB is better to hit when there is secondary enemy next to primary. You lose onlyt 0.5 dmg but deal damage to second one.

However situation changes if you have for example a Longsword +1 with extra 1d8 dmg from let's say cold:

Suddenly seperate targets damage is 14 dmg per hit and single target dmg is 4d8 + 10, so 28. So GFB may still be better vs two targets, however with GFB there one downside: it's 100% dmg or 0% dmg on miss. With two attacks, you can always deal at least 50% of your average damage if one attack miss, but second hit.

So my conclusion:

Use GFB vs two targets if you don't have bonus dmg magic weapon and enemies are low AC.

Use extra attack vs single target to increase chance for dealing damage at all.

When you face two enemies with decent AC and you have weapon with bonus damage die: use seperate attack for each one (if you have to) to increase chance of dealing dmg in your turn.

And if you have decent magic weapon it's better to focus one target and kill it faster than focusing on two and spreading damage. Enemy even with 1 HP left still has full action against you. Dead enemy has none.

Thank you that clears up the damage calculation. I guess it still depends if that's enough reason to use up the second cantrip slot but at least it is not useless.

Booming Blade OA is pretty nice especially since enemies tend to want to ignore the guy with 23 AC and +5 AoP. And it immediately triggers the extra damage since they are already moving.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Your Donning Armour .gif under neutral points is now a selfie of some hipster dude.

I'm assuming this was a recent source change, as I've already read the guide about 10+ times and I distinctly remember this being Saber summoning her armour beforehand.