Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Kevin187z]

There's also leveling issues to be aware of if you want to mix in hexblade. At the table, figuring out when and where to take levels so you don't end up weak for long stretches of a game/dead because your build wasn't effective is extremely important pre-11. As the guide points out, it's hard to really feel like a sorcadin early, and balancing which class to level is a real head scratcher.

Mix in hexblade, and where do you even begin? It's got a lot of great 1 level benefits, but is it strong enough to put off obtaining your level 3 spells and extra attack, already very delayed by the decision to go sorcadin at all, by yet another level? Do you wait until after, at level 11? Should you do that instead of getting Aura first? That'd be my choice, leveling as pal 2/sorc 5/pal 4/hexblade 1/sorc 8. But by then, you aren't really going to ditch strength and dexterity for 11 levels just to take advantage of +charisma attacks, are you? You'd be useless.

This is assuming the more common pal 6/sorc x build. With fewer paladin levels (2) for the higher level sorcerer spells, delaying caster progression by even one more level would really hurt. By contrast, if you were already planning on taking paladin to level 11+, you have to weigh an entire level's worth of spells over the benefits of your hexblade dip.

It's pretty tricky, and there's a lot to consider.

Actually playing from 1 it seems like going Hex 1 / Pal 2 / Sorc X would be the way to go right? Level 1 Hexblade has many many more in combat options than Pal 1 (i attack with my longsword!)

[strangebloke]

Actually playing from 1 it seems like going Hex 1 / Pal 2 / Sorc X would be the way to go right? Level 1 Hexblade has many many more in combat options than Pal 1 (i attack with my longsword!)

I'm considering this in my next game! It's actually close to a theoretically optimal (tm) crit fishing build.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Actually playing from 1 it seems like going Hex 1 / Pal 2 / Sorc X would be the way to go right? Level 1 Hexblade has many many more in combat options than Pal 1 (i attack with my longsword!)

After math-ing out stuff with Spock, I'd say it's definitely viable so long as you have access to GFB and BB. If you're in AL that means you're out of luck, but in a normal game, just having those and a high charisma will keep you competent long enough to hit 3 and get your smites. By the time you hit 5, you'll get metamagics to fill in any additional gaps left by not having extra attack or access to level 3 spells, and your cantrips will have just scaled to keep you competent even when you're out of resources.

If you're in AL or have a DM that hates the SCAG cantrips, things are going to get trickier. With a single attack, ever, I'd say it's borderline unplayable. One GFB with possible smite isn't bad damage, but it's just not enough. Make sure you can nab SCAG cantrips before committing to the build.

Otherwise, I'd skip paladin outright, take one more level in hexblade, and perform as a more traditional blaster. Maybe switch to shadow or divine sorcerer to vary up spell tactics over the damage/survivability of draconic, as that's no longer your bag.

[Chugger]

Actually playing from 1 it seems like going Hex 1 / Pal 2 / Sorc X would be the way to go right? Level 1 Hexblade has many many more in combat options than Pal 1 (i attack with my longsword!)

You don't get heavy armor starting at lvl 1 hexblade. If you're AL you get warlock starting gear - you can't roll for gold and buy out of phb in AL - meaning you get leather, a xbow, 2 daggers, and a simple weapon and a pack and a focus.

Both have wis saves (prof).

I'd start w/ pal or start w/ sorc if you're going draconic and dex or if you wanna live w/ med armor - mc'ing pal after 1 gets you medium, not heavy, iirc. Starting sorc gets you Con ST prof.

How are you going to extra attack? I guess gfb and bb, quickening and twinning, but that's not AL legal either - breaks the phb + 1 other book rule - these cantrips come from scag and hexblade from xgte.

[Kevin187z]

You don't get heavy armor starting at lvl 1 hexblade. If you're AL you get warlock starting gear - you can't roll for gold and buy out of phb in AL - meaning you get leather, a xbow, 2 daggers, and a simple weapon and a pack and a focus.

Both have wis saves (prof).

I'd start w/ pal or start w/ sorc if you're going draconic and dex or if you wanna live w/ med armor - mc'ing pal after 1 gets you medium, not heavy, iirc. Starting sorc gets you Con ST prof.

How are you going to extra attack? I guess gfb and bb, quickening and twinning, but that's not AL legal either - breaks the phb + 1 other book rule - these cantrips come from scag and hexblade from xgte.

AL is not a concern at all in regards to this. New group is starting and going to play TOA from the book. Without having read through the book (cuz spoilers) Do you ever even get the opportunity to get Plate? If not then scale mail = chain mail basically.

[BrusLi]

Here are my thoughts :

Variant Human- Feat Magic initiate- Choose whatever gives you Shillelagh cantrip

Now,you can start with Hexblade,go 5 with pala,or first go 9 with hexblade..whatever you do on your first ASI/Feat you choose Polearm master

Use your Shillelagh with shield for D8 polearm goodness,be tanky and damage dealer,Later when you can add Great Weapon Master.

Pick whatever Paladin Archetype you like,choose either defence or duelling.

And go with what you want to do more with how you envision your character.

So you will have 2 attacks with D8 because of Shillelagh,bonus attack from back end of the Shillelagh and its all charisma.

You can smite,use spells for utility..whatever you like..gold!

Or do the same thing with pure hexblade XD

[Sception]

Magic initiate shylegleg is wisdom based.

[Arkhios]

Magic initiate shylegleg is wisdom based.

Oh, come on, it's not that difficult word. It's pronounced in (give or take) three parts (alhough I know this isn't the correct prounounciation format, it's the basic pattern): Shill le lagh.

Here are my thoughts :

Variant Human- Feat Magic initiate- Choose whatever gives you Shillelagh cantrip
---
So you will have 2 attacks with D8 because of Shillelagh,bonus attack from back end of the Shillelagh and its all charisma.

But Malisteen is right. There's only one way to get Shillelagh through Magic Initiate. Shillelagh is ONLY a druid cantrip. Meaning that without a special class feature saying otherwise, only a druid can learn Shillelagh. And because of it, through Magic Initiate, Shillelagh is cast with using Wisdom (Explaining this in plain English: Druid. spells. use. Wisdom. Period.)

Also, Contrary to what you seem to be implying, Polearm Master combined with Shillelagh does not change the back end of the Shillelagh damage to 1d8. It's still 1d4 because the feat says so. Whatever the damage modifier is, is irrelevant to that.

[BrusLi]

Oh, come on, it's not that difficult word. It's pronounced in (give or take) three parts (alhough I know this isn't the correct prounounciation format, it's the basic pattern): Shill le lagh.



But Malisteen is right. There's only one way to get Shillelagh through Magic Initiate. Shillelagh is ONLY a druid cantrip. Meaning that without a special class feature saying otherwise, only a druid can learn Shillelagh. And because of it, through Magic Initiate, Shillelagh is cast with using Wisdom (Explaining this in plain English: Druid. spells. use. Wisdom. Period.)

Also, Contrary to what you seem to be implying, Polearm Master combined with Shillelagh does not change the back end of the Shillelagh damage to 1d8. It's still 1d4 because the feat says so. Whatever the damage modifier is, is irrelevant to that.

Oh yeah.
I forgot about that,my bad. XD
Maybe hexblade and pact of the tome ?
I dont have books on me :P

[rbstr]

Maybe Hexblade and don't bother with Shillelagh? It's basically redundant with the Hexwarrior feature.

[Chugger]

Maybe Hexblade and don't bother with Shillelagh? It's basically redundant with the Hexwarrior feature.

Right - shilleglagh is silly with hexblade and/or sorcadin or pal - shil is a wisdom based thing - those classes are cha based.

A wisdom gish could possibly use shillelagh - but a wisdom gish just doesn't even begin to have the oomph that a cha based character does. Wisdom classes don't give you smites. Think about it. (also any attempt to build a wisdom/shilelagh gish I've seen has failed - pal and sorc and lock/hexblade combos blow them away).

[Chugger]

AL is not a concern at all in regards to this. New group is starting and going to play TOA from the book. Without having read through the book (cuz spoilers) Do you ever even get the opportunity to get Plate? If not then scale mail = chain mail basically.

You can get plate - a few encounters drop quite a bit of gold. There is a plate penalty iirc cuz of jungle heat - not all DMs enforce that rule. Ask.

TOA ends - you gonna quit that char or keep playing? I think TOA only gets u to lvl 9 or 10 or so. Even if you don't want to wear plate in TOA you will after it.

[Raif]

Hey all, saw this thread and wanted to see if I could get some help with a greatsword 6/14 sorcadin build.

Game starts at level 3, will end at around 18
Stats are rolled (rolled decently tbh): 16/15/14/14/13/8

Was trying to get everything to fit, but could use some help.

Was thinking half elf with the following:
16/14/16(15+1)/8/14(13+1)/16(14+2)

Start 1 level sorc, 2 level paladin for the prof in con and the following level up:
Level 5 (1 sorc/4 paladin): ASI in strength leading to 18(16+2)/14/16(15+1)/8/14(13+1)/16(14+2)
Level 7 (1 sorc/6 paladin): start sorcerer again
level 10 (4 sorc/6 paladin): ASI in strength leading to 20(16+4)/14/16(15+1)/8/14(13+1)/16(14+2)
Level 14 (8 sorc/6 paladin): Great Weaponmaster
level 18 (8 sorc/6 paladin): ASI in charisma leading to 20(16+4)/14/16(15+1)/8/14(13+1)/18(14+2 racial +2 ASI)

Will be Vengeance Paladin/Divine Soul sorcerer with Defense style (rerolling for gwf is only for the sword according to dm rule). Figured since I'm not playing levels 1-3 I could start at sorc 1/pal2 and not need to pick up res:con. It's only offsetting everything by 1 level in the start, but seems to make getting ASI's and GWM a lot smoother?

[Kallandrass]

I've been running a Half-Orc Paladin/Sorcerer for a few levels (after my Polearm Master Fighter died) based on this thread. Build has been Longsword/Shield, Oathbreaker, Shadow Sorcerer. Currently 9 Paladin/8 Sorcerer, with War Caster. Initially I was feeling the MAD a little bit, but my GM is nice and gave me a differently flavored Manual of Gainful Exercise, as well as a +2 Str item. Overall, I've found the build to be extremely tanky - Shield on top of 21 AC is ridiculous - a versatile caster (healing, cc, nuking, I can do a little bit of it all!), a decent damage dealer even once I'm out of spell slots, and utterly gross when I'm able to Quicken Hold Person into double auto crit smites.

My GM has playtested encounter design for characters up to level 25 with us, and seems to find the math workable. The campaign is probably going that far, so I'm likely to take the build to either Paladin 13/Sorcerer 12 to get the most stat bumps and Find Greater Steed for non-concentration flight, or to Paladin 11/Sorcerer 14 for the shadow step ability while still getting Improved Divine Smite.

Thanks for making and maintaining this guide. It's been a lot of fun to play, and manages to capture the gish flavor of my weird samurai/ninja orc with an animated ink tattoo that powers all his magic.

[PaladinHayden]

Maybe someone here can help me out.

I am working on a 'Guardian of the Night/Dreams' style Sorcadin using the Oath of the Midnight Hour by Walrock (which i cant link as i have no points) and the Shadow Sorcerer from Xanthar's Guide.

The problem is in the details and house rules. We get a Free Feat at level 1, V Human is banned, Great Weapon Master, and Sharp Shooter are banned. And we level on a massively expedited curve, gaining XP from time played rather than challenges faced.

I want to use a Halberd probably by taking Polearm Master at level 1, but the guide kind of pushes that down a bit.

So far im leaning towards the 6/14 split, Half Elf, Polearm Master, Midnight Hour oath and Shadow Sorc but beyond that i could use some help fleshing out and optimizing while still fitting my theme.

Will i lose out on much by going PAM without GWM? Are there any other feats i should consider with this. and would i be too far behind if i tried this out?

[TheHutz]

I'm probably long past anyone actually answering questions in this thread and after scouring 10+ pages of the thread I couldn't really find answers to my two questions.

I decided I wanted to multi into sorc from paladin after starting out Paladin as my first 5e character. He's level 5 oath of devotion, and we used point buy to assign stats. I've got a half elf with 18 STR (first ASI went here), 14 CON, 16 CHA. I obviously don't have the GWM feat and the guide "assumes you have it" as a greatsword wielding paladin. Given that, I'm guessing a lot of GWM Sorcadins take variant human (wasn't an option anyway) to get the feat earlier than I will. My question is, do I take it with next ASI or do I max strength first or consider warcaster? I've already had some issues with my concentration spells dropping. I'm going to multi at 7, so I won't see another ASI until level 10.

Second, I'm between the wild magic and shadow sorcerer paths. My party is melee heavy, fighter, monk, and myself up front, Sorc/Warlock hyrbid, and a non moon druid. How bad am I screwing my fellow melee fighters if I go the shadow route? I figure if I'm casting darkness all the time they're going to be in a bad place. Since both them and the monsters will be in darkness does the disadvantage cancel out?

Thanks for the help.

[TheShalafi]

Posted this in the padlock thread, but it's not nearly as active as this one, so sorry for repeating.

About to start a new campaign and wanted a tankish like character that was good at protecting the group but still putting out some mean dps.

I was going to do this via Polearm master + Tunnel Fighter + Elven Accuracy + Sentinel/GWM

for attributed i have the following choices:

18,14,12,11,9,6 - 70 total points
17,14,12,11,10,8 -72
16,15,12,12,10,8 - 73
15,15,13,12,11,9 - 75

so potentially could have a level 1 cha of 20. str 13, dex 14, con 12, wis 9, int 6

Level progression thoughts? Here is what i had in my head:

hexblade 1-5 (stop at 5 for extra attack invocation)
paladin 5-11/12 (depending on Vengeance/OB)

Then was debating going more Hexblade or Sorcerer

I don't see what the next few levels of Hexblade give you until level 12/life drinker. A sorcerer on the other hand gives many spells slot for smiting + metamagic + just really useful spells.

TIA

[Waifu Collector]

If I’m not mistaken, this is my first post on the forums. This guide is extremely good btw, informational and even entertaining enough to make me keep reading (mostly the anime references). It actually inspired me to create a Sorcadin of my own.

This one in particular is currently Devotion Paladin 6/Divine Magic Sorcerer 4, is using a Greatsword, and is a Scourge Aasimar. Her stat lineup is 16/8/16/8/10/18, with a Fortitude Stone, and with GWM. It’s not optimal I know, but I plan on going Hexblade later, for SADness.

Even with this suboptimal build, my DM still had to nerf me because a quickened Hold Person + a high level smite is busted. Now I can only smite once per turn,

[DarkKnightJin]

If I’m not mistaken, this is my first post on the forums. This guide is extremely good btw, informational and even entertaining enough to make me keep reading (mostly the anime references). It actually inspired me to create a Sorcadin of my own.

This one in particular is currently Devotion Paladin 6/Divine Magic Sorcerer 4, is using a Greatsword, and is a Scourge Aasimar. Her stat lineup is 16/8/16/8/10/18, with a Fortitude Stone, and with GWM. It’s not optimal I know, but I plan on going Hexblade later, for SADness.

Even with this suboptimal build, my DM still had to nerf me because a quickened Hold Person + a high level smite is busted. Now I can only smite once per turn,

The Nova from a Sorcadin is countered by the spells slots and Sorcery Points, both of which only come back after a long rest.
Sure, they can hit hard.. but they use quite a lot of resources to do it. And they tend to be able to do this a couple times per day.

The candle that burns twice as bright, also burns half as long.

[HorusTheThird]

I'm making an AL legal dex-based Sorcadin†, and looking at it, I think a half drow(SCAG) with GFB, BB, Minor Illusion, another cantrip*, Shield (Obviously), and Fog Cloud(can't find anything better) seems best. The fog can sometimes be explained away as natural, which helps in some cases. He gets dancing lights**, which replaces candles, and he also get faerie fire and darkness, both pretty useful spells to have. Starting sorcerer isn't taboo anymore, it's actually almost mandatory. Draconic origin is half of that, getting you an AC better than any light or medium armor. Also, you get con save proficiency instead of the wis save proficiency. Because of this, you might be a bit vulnerable to wis save effects but that can't be helped. This guy's main strategy is to use fog cloud, then run in, BB someone, and run out. Level progression goes Sorc 1, Pal 2, Sorc 3, and on to your preferred build. Then take Quickened and Twinned. Note that any ordinary sorcadin can take Quickened and Twinned for a good buff in damage against stuff that is immune to some of their more powerful combos, with Twinned BB + Quickened GFB letting you have three attacks, effectively. At fifth level you can stack smites all you want on these, for pretty good nova damage††. If your DM doesn't know multiclass rules well enough, or he doesn't look at your sheet, then this is by far better than STR based Sorcadins.
†I haven't actually played it, but it seems pretty good from a theoretical perspective.
*I picked shape water for fun, but I'm not entirely sure it's legal. Anyways, my DM probably won't notice, and he probably won't care if he does.
** Lots of uses for this, like examining that weird tapestry better, to "will-o-the-wisp"ing enemies into pits, or just illuminating enemies who you can't see with your darkvision.
††Assuming hits half the time, no crits, a dagger, and Dex and Cha of 16, this means this combo deals 30 damage on average. And this is with noticeably nerfed factors, and if you have a way to hit every time, the damage jumps to 60. Unfortunately, when done at fifth level, this burns through everything you have except your first lvl spell slots.

[Ursus the Grim]

If your DM doesn't know multiclass rules well enough, or he doesn't look at your sheet, then this is by far better than STR based Sorcadins.

I'm going to take umbrage with this being AL legal if you're relying on somebody not catching a rules violation.

That being said, I don't necessarily see a rules violation. With +2 Cha, and +1 to two other stats, you'd probably be running 13/16/13/8/8/17. While a little squishier than most Sorcadins (and most Paladins), its definitely doable, and this being AL, you could probably get your hands on an amulet of health to fix that.

[MegenticPull]

Not sure how great the search feature is, never posted here before and I'm not planning on reading the whole thread, so I hope I'm not echoing someone.

Regardless, a few times in the guide you mention Web + Careful Spell. According to both my reading and a sage advice thread, careful spell only works when you cast the spell. Web forces saves on a creatures turn, not on yours, so this combo is actually particularly useless.

Sage Advice in question: /twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/840017588746768384
I apparently haven't posted enough to make this a proper link. My apologies.

As a Sorcerer player, I certainly wish this wasn't the case, but there ya' go.

So I feel like it needs to be mentioned in the guide somewhere to ask your DM how they'll rule, before picking up a metamagic you may never use. I know I'd rule in favor of the Sorcerer, but not everyone will.

[IskandarGreat]

I apologise if this was already asked/addressed, but after reading this delightfully lengthy guide, and a few pages of replies, I don't think I have it in me to read the rest of them to see if my question has already been answered.

I'm joining a strict AL campaign, and planning on going pal6/sor14, Sword and board.

My question:

I understand that quickened BB and two attacks are awesome, but in regards to the PHB +1 rule, is it worth giving up Oaths/bloodlines/spells/feats from XGtE?

How do they weigh against each other?

Thanks for any and all input!

[Banaticus]

Favored Soul changed to Divine Soul in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and the 6th level ability changed. This should pretty dramatically gut the primary reason for choosing Favored Soul as a sorcerer.

[kenGarff]

Are you, the writer, thinking about updating this by any chance?
Sorry for the trouble.

[Ayra]

I'm playing in a Grayhawk setting game so my GM does not allow GFB & BB since they came from other settings sourcebooks. And just wonder how this build works out whiteout them ?

[Klorox]

I'm playing in a Grayhawk setting game so my GM does not allow GFB & BB since they came from other settings sourcebooks. And just wonder how this build works out whiteout them ?

Still amazing. You definitely need 5 levels of paladin to be good in combat though (it can be argued that you only need 2 levels of paladin to be good in melee with those cantrips). If you’re going to level 5, you’d better grab paladin 6 for the amazing saving throw bonus. IMHO, this hurts the casting part of your build.

[Ayra]

thanks, I assumed as much. We're currently lvl 5 so i guess i'll just go straight paladin to start with, though pala 2/3 - sorc 3/2 is tempting just to have the core concept down from the get go.

[Deathtongue]

Regarding the Hexblade v. Paladin debate:

I haven't really played a Hexblade, but I'm playing a Var Human Sorceradin (Veng Pal 6 / Wild Sor 5, with SCAG cantrips) in Adventurer's League and that Aura is a big effin' deal. I didn't really notice this when playing my Bladesinger, but I did notice this when playing other melee frontliner builds like the Moon Druid and Valor Bard: being able to give the finger to Concentration saving throws is huge. Even with Resilient: CON, the difference between having a +6 concentration saving throw at level 10 and a +9 (which only Bladesingers and Paladins can really get) is huge. I've dropped a lot of Conjure Animals and Moonbeams and even Greater Invis just from bad luck.

I love Haste + Quicken Spell: Booming Blade. With Channel Divinity, a +2 Greatsword from [ADVENTURE REDACTED], Great Weapon Mastery, and Gauntlets of Ogre Strength from [ADVENTURE REDACTED], It's just so much damage. Even without smiting, we're talking close to a hundred damage in one round. When I have enough money for a Ring of Spell Storing, I'll be able to load it up with Shield spells and have even more sustainable damage. But I would not feel confident about this combo in the slightest without a +9 to saving throws between Resilient: CON and Aura of Protection.

As far as Hexblade's Curse vis-à-vis an orthodox Sorceradin goes: I think it's one of those things that starts out strong and levels off as the game goes on. You see, the round in which you're using Hexblade's Curse is a round in which you're not using Quicken Spell. And Quicken Spell does loads of up-front damage. Hexblade's Curse gives you expanded crit-range and +3 to +6 to damage per attack, but Quickened Booming Blade gives you from 18 to 35+ damage then and there. The edge still goes to Hexblade's curse when you only have a handful of Metamagic Points to play with, but once you have 8 or so of them (with enough spare spell slots to convert into more points) I'd say the Sorceradin closes much of the gap.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

As far as Hexblade's Curse vis-à-vis an orthodox Sorceradin goes: I think it's one of those things that starts out strong and levels off as the game goes on. You see, the round in which you're using Hexblade's Curse is a round in which you're not using Quicken Spell. And Quicken Spell does loads of up-front damage. Hexblade's Curse gives you expanded crit-range and +3 to +6 to damage per attack, but Quickened Booming Blade gives you from 18 to 35+ damage then and there. The edge still goes to Hexblade's curse when you only have a handful of Metamagic Points to play with, but once you have 8 or so of them (with enough spare spell slots to convert into more points) I'd say the Sorceradin closes much of the gap.

The Hexblade/Sorcerer still has more spellslots and more sorcery points to burn on damage. He doesn't really need Hexblade's Curse. It is a nice additional ability though if you happen to also want to cast Improved Invisibility because you will have a very good crit chance.

Sure, Aura of Protection is great. But is it really better then 2-3 levels in spell power? Your Character could have access to Polymorph and Animate Objects, along with Fireshield (just to name a few decent choices).

The Sorcadin has his place, it is certainly a great multi class. I think the Sorcblade is the overall stronger multi class though because he is less MAD, probably has better initiative, and is the better caster. The Sorcblade trades some burst damage potential vs sustainability, but the burst damage potential of the Sorcblade is still more then enough imho.