Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Waterdeep Merch]

Pact of the Blade does have a bonus in letting you use Heavy Weapons with the Hexblade's Charisma to Attack & Damage tho... so you could potentially go something like Polearm Master as the feat you talked about (or start with it if your a Variant Human)

You know, I forget about that caveat all the time. That's completely true. I'd even say you must if you have any intention of using a great weapon.

[paladinn]

We had a pretty long discourse right here in this thread on it. After playing around with it in meatspace, it's almost identical to the stereotypical warlock dip (2 or 3 levels) except there's also a good reason to only take one, and you're probably best off making it your very first level.

Taking a single level dip lets you pump Charisma by itself, a very nice short rest-recharged curse for taking out bosses and big threats, gets you a few good cantrips, and a short rest-refreshing 1st level spell slot. This is a fine place to jump off, especially if you'd rather prioritize sorcerer levels in the long run. Go straight to paladin for 2 levels, then the last 17 in sorcerer. This is extremely similar to how a 2/18 sorcadin plays, except you're a bit behind at the start in exchange for being very streamlined and having a few extra tricks. You suffer a bit starting at level 5 until you hit level 8, then it's pretty gravy from then on. This build is especially powerful with SCAG cantrips as your go-to damage option.

Taking two levels of warlock is better for when you're going to go 6 or 7 levels in paladin. The invocations can net you a very strong ranged cantrip or some nice AoE abilities, among other things. You also get two short rest-rechargeable 1st level slots instead of just the one, a pretty great perk all on its own considering how resource hungry a classic sorcadin gets. This covers traditional paladin weaknesses even better than sorcerer levels do and can make a very well-balanced Hexsorcadin in the end. I'd prefer this for Ancients paladins especially, since the different between 11 or 12 levels in sorcerer isn't all that great (you can still max Charisma and nab a feat even if you're not a variant human, so the ASI's not quite as nice as level 6 spells in my mind). This comes at a cost of power at level 5-6, and some weakness at 9 or 10 from a lack of features and lackluster spellcasting in general. Catches back up once you get metamagic, and never stops being viable from then on.

Taking three levels in warlock means you want the pact boon and 2nd level recharging slots, and there's some powerful choices here. Blade is usually poo-pooed, but in a low-to-no magic item game, taking this with Improved Pact Weapon will make you a powerhouse. Hex smiting is usually not necessary, but it has a niche- you can deliver it from your Pact Weapon, and with Improved Pact Weapon, that can mean a longbow. This has especially nasty synergy with Sharpshooter, but this build is easily the most ASI-starved, so I wouldn't. Pact of the Chain is for those that understand the power that is the imp; we're talking some of the best reconnaissance in the game at level 3, and an absolutely genius thing to hand something like a magic wand or other tricky magic item or device. Finally, and by no means the least potent option, the Book grants access to an unparalleled versatility in cantrips alongside the extremely potent Book of Ancient Secrets invocation; while you'd be capped at level 2 rituals, that's most of them anyway. It would be my pick under most circumstances. Regardless, after your three warlock levels (and you really do want them up front) you should immediately take two levels in paladin to get to your smites by level 5, otherwise you're going to suffer for a while. Then you should go into sorcerer for at least 5 so that you have reasonable casting skills by level 10. After that, you've got options- finish out as a sorcerer and get as high as level 8 spells, or go paladin until 6 for Extra Attack and Aura of Protection and stop at level 11 sorcerer for 6th level spells. You're deciding between being a tanky frontliner or a tanky caster, really. Either way, thanks to the Pact Boon and better recharging spell slots, this is eventually the most consistent of the warlock dips, in my view- you have an absolutely insane amount of versatility, you don't have anywhere near the same problems with long rest dependency, and you can still pump out epic levels of hate when the situation calls for it.

So getting the Con save proficiency isn't really worth going Sor at 1st level? So much of what I've read has said "Go for the Con save!"

Can a Hexadin divine smite with a pact weapon? I like that a Bladelock always has the pact weapon available. And Hexblade ensures that Cha mod can always be added to attack and damage.

Going Hexblade at 1st level means I'll always be limited to medium armor unless I take a feat (which I don't want to do for that). So I guess I'll also be limited to S&B?

Speaking of feats.. If I go vuman, what should be the 1st feat? Is magic initiate worth it for a sorlocadin (sore-lock-a-din.. accent on the lock)? If so, which class to borrow from?

[Storyteller_Arc]

You know, I forget about that caveat all the time. That's completely true. I'd even say you must if you have any intention of using a great weapon.

Just for the Hexblade dip, or do you mean for a Sorcadin build in general?

[Waterdeep Merch]

So getting the Con save proficiency isn't really worth going Sor at 1st level? So much of what I've read has said "Go for the Con save!"

Can a Hexadin divine smite with a pact weapon? I like that a Bladelock always has the pact weapon available. And Hexblade ensures that Cha mod can always be added to attack and damage.

Going Hexblade at 1st level means I'll always be limited to medium armor unless I take a feat (which I don't want to do for that). So I guess I'll also be limited to S&B?

Speaking of feats.. If I go vuman, what should be the 1st feat? Is magic initiate worth it for a sorlocadin (sore-lock-a-din.. accent on the lock)? If so, which class to borrow from?

Con proficiency is super important for concentration. With this build, you're going to be behind in getting many decent concentration spells anyway. Hex really doesn't count, considering how long you're going to be going without Extra Attack to make it worthwhile (and you'll probably want to smite with your short rest slots). I'd put it off until an ASI later, or just start V. Human. Since you go Hexblade at level 1, you can take War Caster immediately. War Caster is strictly superior to Resilient: Constitution early, and a requirement if you want to go sword n' board.

You can smite with any melee weapon. You can smite with a bar stool if you ever find yourself fighting an undead bar patron.

I'd actually argue medium armor is preferable for a Hexsorcadin. You're dipping Hexblade partly to eliminate the need for Strength. To wear plate armor without reducing your speed, you need a 15 Strength. While you still need a 13 Strength to multiclass into Paladin, those extra points could be spent in better places. Like Dexterity, both to top off your AC and get you a better Initiative and improve the more important Dex save.

Just for the Hexblade dip, or do you mean for a Sorcadin build in general?

For the Hexblade dip specifically. I haven't really number crunched GWM Hexsorcadin versus the GWM Sorcadin, though I'd imagine it ends up like- GWM Hexsorcadin has more dead levels and takes longer to fully come online but better versatility, while GWM Sorcadin has a more streamlined build but has some ASI problems thanks to needing a high Strength.

EDIT- Though, looking at it, a Hexsorcadin wants to be a Variant Human more than the regular Sorcadin does, just because you have a greater desire for that opening feat. One of the big tradeoffs early in a Sorcadin's career is whether they want all the Paladin's superior starting abilities (usually yes) or the Sorcerer's Constitution proficiency and early casting (usually no). Taking the former always meant you couldn't take War Caster, and that hurt the Variant Human a lot in this build. Enough that one of the best reasons to go with great weapons was actually to avoid how much you sorely need War Caster to get around somatic component issues.

By going Warlock first, you still get the proficiencies you'd want (barring Constitution saves, but-) while allowing you to start with War Caster. Besides making your concentration saves secure, you can more easily go sword n' board, and SCAG cantrips turn hyper deadly in your hands. While the Half-Elf is easily the best vanilla Sorcadin, the Variant Human is easily the best Hexsorcadin because of this switch.

[paladinn]

By going Warlock first, you still get the proficiencies you'd want (barring Constitution saves, but-) while allowing you to start with War Caster. Besides making your concentration saves secure, you can more easily go sword n' board, and SCAG cantrips turn hyper deadly in your hands. While the Half-Elf is easily the best vanilla Sorcadin, the Variant Human is easily the best Hexsorcadin because of this switch.

I think the expression "vanilla Sorcadin" is hilarious. Especially since MC is very optional in 5e :)

So Vuman gets the initial feat. You recommend Warcaster over Magic Initiate?

Other than the AC boost, is there a reason to go S&B over GW? If I go Hex 3, I was thinking to make my pact weapon a greatsword (or at least a bastard sword)

Actually if Eberron was an available source, an Elf bladelock would have a hoot with a double-scimitar as a pact weapon:)

[dgnslyr]

I think the expression "vanilla Sorcadin" is hilarious. Especially since MC is very optional in 5e :)

So Vuman gets the initial feat. You recommend Warcaster over Magic Initiate?

Other than the AC boost, is there a reason to go S&B over GW? If I go Hex 3, I was thinking to make my pact weapon a greatsword (or at least a bastard sword)

Actually if Eberron was an available source, an Elf bladelock would have a hoot with a double-scimitar as a pact weapon:)

TL,DR: Warcaster is mandatory for sword-and-board but optional otherwise. Sorcadin and Hexadin each have their own merits, but it's not worth crossing the streams, so pick one or the other.

Warcaster does two things: it allows you to cast with your hands full, which lets you sword and board, and it lets you cast Booming Blade as an opportunity attack, which can hurt a LOT. The former isn't strictly necessary if you're two-handing, for example, since you can always hold your weapon in one hand and access your component pouch with your other, and the latter is a nice bonus that you can live without. Strictly speaking, you can't take it as your Vuman feat if you're starting in Paladin, since casting is a prerequisite for Warcaster, which a Paladin isn't until level 2. Ask your DM if you can waive the requirement, or take a different feat, like Resilient(CON) to round out your point buy. If you don't plan on using a shield, you can skip Warcaster entirely.

Magic Initiate is a great pickup, especially if you don't have any other pressing needs like Resilient(CON) or Warcaster; Owlvantage is amazing, and so are ranged cantrips like Toll the Dead and utility like Mold Earth. Warlocks are a bit short on cantrips, so if you pick Eldritch Blast you might have to skip one of the Blade cantrips, and Magic Initiate can let you pick up whatever you missed.

If you're playing a Sorcadin, I still think dipping for Hex Warrior isn't worth it, since your CHA and STR are probably not going to be too far off from each other. On the other hand, if you're already going three levels into Warlock, I'd suggest skipping sorcerer entirely and just play a Hexadin, since each Warlock level sets you back too far in spellcasting to make Sorcerer worthwhile.

[Storyteller_Arc]

TL,DR: Warcaster is mandatory for sword-and-board but optional otherwise. Sorcadin and Hexadin each have their own merits, but it's not worth crossing the streams, so pick one or the other.

Except for the fact that a lot of people disagree with you and that there is very strong justification to pick up a few levels in the Hexblade Warlock class in order to focus entirely on a single attribute and get a very powerful ranged option that you would otherwise have to go without.

[dgnslyr]

Except for the fact that a lot of people disagree with you and that there is very strong justification to pick up a few levels in the Hexblade Warlock class in order to focus entirely on a single attribute and get a very powerful ranged option that you would otherwise have to go without.

I know I'm going against consensus, but I'm still not really sold the benefits outweigh the costs. With a one-level dip for Hex Warrior, you can use the better of your CHA or STR on attack rolls. If you're not dumping strength, and are playing a Vuman with point buy attributes, this does... exactly nothing, since your CHA and STR are equal. If you are dumping STR, then you're forced into a medium-armor build, and are probably best off putting your extra points into DEX... which brings your AC to parity with Splint, and a hair worse than plate. With the savings in point buy, you turn your -1 DEX mod to a +2, and can even shore up your base WIS to 10.

Eldritch Blast is arguably the king of damaging cantrips, but Firebolt is equal in damage before invocations, for example, and you have enough sorcerer cantrips that you can afford pick it up alongside the Blade cantrips, with one left over. And if that's somehow not enough, Magic Initiate is already a top-notch pick just for Owlvantage, and you get your pick of another pair of Wizard cantrips, including Toll the Dead, Fire Bolt, and whatever utility cantrips you missed earlier.

Pros: Better secondary attributes
-DEX: +3 to saves, initiative
-WIS: +1 to saves, skills
-CHA: Eventually a +1 damage/to hit once after an ASI?
-Spells: Rechargeable on short rest.

Cons: One less level in anything else
-Slower spell progression as sorcerer

I guess it depends a lot on the tempo of your adventuring day; as always, Warlocks do better the more short rests you have between long rests. Taking sorcerer levels so late with so few cross-class caster levels behind it seems really weak, for example, and quitting Hexblade at 3 right before an ASI seems painful too. I am starting to see what makes it so good, but I'm still not really convinced that it's worth dipping as a Sorcadin; Warlock and Sorcerer are both good enough on their own merits and yet non-synergistic enough that it doesn't seem worth mixing.

I guess by the time your Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Sorcerer 3 is the time you finally get to burn Warlock spells for Sorcery points to fuel a Quickened Hold Person into a crit-smite? Without any feats besides your Vuman freebie, you're kind of forced into solo-handing a rapier, which costs you damage compared to a two-hander and AC compared to sword-and-boarding, which is another pain. I guess I'm too impatient to put off big spells and big turns, especially for campaigns that start low and progress slowly, *grumble grumble*, but at least I'm starting to see the value of Warlock, and it isn't because of Hex Warrior.

[Storyteller_Arc]

First things first, you're making the same mistake that Waterdeep did a few posts back. Forgetting that if you pick up the Pact of the Blade as a Hexblade Warlock, you can use the Hex Warrior class feature alongside the Pact of the Blade class feature, allowing you to use Heavy/Two-Handed Weapons with your Charisma modifier instead of having to rely on a Rapier or Longsword. Therefore, you don't have to go for a single weapon and without a shield until you finally get the single feat that lets you grab Warcaster and start casting whilst going sword and board.

Secondly, if you don't go for Pact of the Blade, the other pacts can give you more advantage. The Chain Familiar does have more HP than say, an Owl (1 HP vs say, the Imp's 10 HP), which might not seem like much, but can make a whole lot of difference. Not to mention an Imp turns invisible, and using the Help action doesn't get rid of it as far as I can tell, making it much, much more likely to be sniped by an opponent, and it has Magic Resistance, meaning that AoE spells are less likely to be able to one-shot it. Plus you have the fact that an invisible Imp is a fricking insanely strong scout. And as Waterdeep pointed out, grabbing Pact of the Tome and the Book of Ancient Secrets Invocation lets you get the level 1 and level 2 Rituals, which greatly increases your utility as a character.

And utility is also a consideration. Being able to drop Strength to 13, and focus on other ability scores, gives you stronger skills. Charisma, of course, has Persuasion, Deception and Intimidation. Dexterity has Stealth and Acrobatics of the top of my head, and Wisdom has Perception and Insight, so being able to buff up these ability scores, and thus these skills, can help make you a more rounded character and bring more to the table when your not in the midsts of combat.

Finally, the SAD focus of the class means you are going to be much better served when you are not in insane point-buy scenarios where you can go 15/15/15/9/9/9, but instead are forced to have a more even split, like what the spread gives you, or if you have a bunch of bad rolls.

[Corran]

While I can see the benefits of dipping a (few) levels in hexblade as a singleclass paladin, I am not sure if it's worth the investment for a sorcadin.

Getting access to EB (and hex) is far less important for a sorcadin, since the sorcadin will already have a ranged cantrip attack. Is it so vital for a PC that is meant to be in the frontline to upgrade his ranged attack with added damage (hex, agonizing blast) and control (repelling blast)? Maybe. It depends a lot on how your group plays (meaning how often you have to rely on your ranged damage) and I think more importantly on how much you can gain out of repelling blast. I mean, this would be the deciding factor for me regarding whether to grab a couple warlock levels for my sorcadin. And assuming I decided to do so, I might as well make it hexblade for the cha SADness, though the improved damage and control of my ranged attack would be the major deciding factor. And in a void, I am not convinced that the delay in paladin/sorcerer levels is worth it (nor have I yet played with a group or a DM that approaches combat that tactically for me to be tempted).

Whenever I am struck with a multiclass idea, I do this. I try to see what's the main benefits of this multiclass. I throw out of the window all the side benefits because the cost of delaying progression on your main class (or classes in this case, since we are talking about a sorcadin) may be something one can easily underestimate but it's very real and its impact on your character's abilities is major, whether one can understand it or not. In other words, if multiclassing does not serve well a vital function of the build or does not sore up a major weakness, then it's a bad decision. At least that's my opinion on this. So, tying this up with my first paragraph, I think that upgrading your ranged attack from firebolt or whatever, to EB + invocations and possibly hex, is the only thing that could potentially pass as a reason significant enough to push me in the direction of adding warlock levels to a sorcadin. Everything else I get are minor benefits and it's really hard for them to justify the dip. They have their usefulness, but essentially they are features I could live without. Lets see them.

The most important of the bunch, always IMO, is the (two) extra 1st level slot(s) that recharges on a short rest. This is something very useful to have when you are a tank with access to the shield spell (and a few other useful first level spells add some value to this extra and rechargeable on s/r slot, but shield is the one that adds the buck of the value here). Personally, I might be tempted to take one warlock level just for this feature (along with AoA possibly), even if I didn't really need the upgrade on my ranged attacks, assuming I was the only frontliner of the party (in which case I would make better use of the upgraded ranged attack anyway). So under some assumptions about group composition, this could be seen as a good reason to dip hexblade, and the fact that the same assumption which makes the extra slot(s) useful (ie heavy ranged party) is part of the assumption that favors an upgrade on the ranged attack (ie, it is a lot easier for a ranged heavy party to sit and wait for the enemy while showering them with ranged attacks, so upgrading your ranged attacks and adding a push to it plays well with this strategy), helps. But if these conditions are not satisfied, this is a minor benefit that I could live without and I would not choose to delay my sorcadin progression.

A few extra known warlock spells are not that important when you can already pick the best of them from sorcerer. Getting access to shield and absorb elements from warlock levels, is far less important for a sorcadin who can (and will) grab them from the sorcerer list, than for a singleclass paladin who has no access to them. Yes, it helps you expand your list of known spells by allowing you to spend your limited sorcerer known spells for other options (and that can certainly make your life easier), but I don't see this as a good reason to delay my sorcadin progression.

Hex warrior is not that important for sorcadins. Hex warrior is better for paladins, cause paladins have a better dpr than sorcadins (IDS, and possibly sentinel or even PAM -if using a one handed quarterstuff-; all these are things you will probably never see on an optimized sorcadin). Hex warrior makes you SAD. SADness in the case of a sorcadin translates to increased attack bonus. Increased attack bonus does not mean much when you have probably what's the worst dpr in the game (gfb, and when the secondary effect does not apply you have two attacks at a total of 2d8+6).

And about hexblade curse, I always saw it as useful as action economy allows. For example if my paladin spends the action on the first turn to cast a spell or activate a channel divinity, then the curse fits nicely in there so it's be nice to have it (just nice, nothing to be excited about). But sorcadins have quicken which solves this issue, so hexblade's curse loses a lot of its value.

I think a (couple of) hexblade level(s) fit nicely on top of a paladin basis (6 or more). But on a sorcadin? There is too much overlap to justify the delay IMO, and I would prefer getting spells, slots and sp at a faster rate. I would consider it very carefully if my sorcadin was the only tank on a ranged-heavy party though. But that's about it. In a void, I think I would pass.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Don't get me wrong, the Hexsorcadin isn't strictly superior or anything. Being behind in spell levels/build is nothing to sneeze at. This is more of a blending of the major benefits of a full-on Hexadin (short rest smites, Cha SAD) and Sorcadin (high level smite stockpile, metamagics).

Though... I think there's another build I'm ignoring here, in Hexblade 5 for Thirsting Blade. This lets you skip going Paladin 5+ for an easier Paladin 2, then you go Sorcerer 13 for the remainder of the game. You'll lack Channel Divinity, Aura of Protection, Find Steed, credible Lay on Hands, and you won't gain access to much in terms of high level magic, but you do have a smoother progression early by finishing Hexblade first. Outside of the rather lousy ASI gain schedule- if you need a feat, you'd better be Variant Human or you're going to have 16 Cha until level 11. That hurts.

I'm also not really sure this is much better than a Hexblade 5/Sorcerer 15 using Eldritch Smite. That one's certainly easier. Considering how little you gain from Paladin 2 comparatively, I'm not sure I'd pick Hex 5/Pal 2/Sorc 13 over it. Though it's still viable if, for some insane reason, the triple class fits your theme better.

[paladinn]

While I can see the benefits of dipping a (few) levels in hexblade as a singleclass paladin, I am not sure if it's worth the investment for a sorcadin.

Getting access to EB (and hex) is far less important for a sorcadin, since the sorcadin will already have a ranged cantrip attack. Is it so vital for a PC that is meant to be in the frontline to upgrade his ranged attack with added damage (hex, agonizing blast) and control (repelling blast)? Maybe. It depends a lot on how your group plays (meaning how often you have to rely on your ranged damage) and I think more importantly on how much you can gain out of repelling blast. I mean, this would be the deciding factor for me regarding whether to grab a couple warlock levels for my sorcadin. And assuming I decided to do so, I might as well make it hexblade for the cha SADness, though the improved damage and control of my ranged attack would be the major deciding factor. And in a void, I am not convinced that the delay in paladin/sorcerer levels is worth it (nor have I yet played with a group or a DM that approaches combat that tactically for me to be tempted).

Whenever I am struck with a multiclass idea, I do this. I try to see what's the main benefits of this multiclass. I throw out of the window all the side benefits because the cost of delaying progression on your main class (or classes in this case, since we are talking about a sorcadin) may be something one can easily underestimate but it's very real and its impact on your character's abilities is major, whether one can understand it or not. In other words, if multiclassing does not serve well a vital function of the build or does not sore up a major weakness, then it's a bad decision. At least that's my opinion on this. So, tying this up with my first paragraph, I think that upgrading your ranged attack from firebolt or whatever, to EB + invocations and possibly hex, is the only thing that could potentially pass as a reason significant enough to push me in the direction of adding warlock levels to a sorcadin. Everything else I get are minor benefits and it's really hard for them to justify the dip. They have their usefulness, but essentially they are features I could live without. Lets see them.

The most important of the bunch, always IMO, is the (two) extra 1st level slot(s) that recharges on a short rest. This is something very useful to have when you are a tank with access to the shield spell (and a few other useful first level spells add some value to this extra and rechargeable on s/r slot, but shield is the one that adds the buck of the value here). Personally, I might be tempted to take one warlock level just for this feature (along with AoA possibly), even if I didn't really need the upgrade on my ranged attacks, assuming I was the only frontliner of the party (in which case I would make better use of the upgraded ranged attack anyway). So under some assumptions about group composition, this could be seen as a good reason to dip hexblade, and the fact that the same assumption which makes the extra slot(s) useful (ie heavy ranged party) is part of the assumption that favors an upgrade on the ranged attack (ie, it is a lot easier for a ranged heavy party to sit and wait for the enemy while showering them with ranged attacks, so upgrading your ranged attacks and adding a push to it plays well with this strategy), helps. But if these conditions are not satisfied, this is a minor benefit that I could live without and I would not choose to delay my sorcadin progression.

A few extra known warlock spells are not that important when you can already pick the best of them from sorcerer. Getting access to shield and absorb elements from warlock levels, is far less important for a sorcadin who can (and will) grab them from the sorcerer list, than for a singleclass paladin who has no access to them. Yes, it helps you expand your list of known spells by allowing you to spend your limited sorcerer known spells for other options (and that can certainly make your life easier), but I don't see this as a good reason to delay my sorcadin progression.

Hex warrior is not that important for sorcadins. Hex warrior is better for paladins, cause paladins have a better dpr than sorcadins (IDS, and possibly sentinel or even PAM -if using a one handed quarterstuff-; all these are things you will probably never see on an optimized sorcadin). Hex warrior makes you SAD. SADness in the case of a sorcadin translates to increased attack bonus. Increased attack bonus does not mean much when you have probably what's the worst dpr in the game (gfb, and when the secondary effect does not apply you have two attacks at a total of 2d8+6).

And about hexblade curse, I always saw it as useful as action economy allows. For example if my paladin spends the action on the first turn to cast a spell or activate a channel divinity, then the curse fits nicely in there so it's be nice to have it (just nice, nothing to be excited about). But sorcadins have quicken which solves this issue, so hexblade's curse loses a lot of its value.

I think a (couple of) hexblade level(s) fit nicely on top of a paladin basis (6 or more). But on a sorcadin? There is too much overlap to justify the delay IMO, and I would prefer getting spells, slots and sp at a faster rate. I would consider it very carefully if my sorcadin was the only tank on a ranged-heavy party though. But that's about it. In a void, I think I would pass.

I think you hit on the precise reasons to do sorlocadin/hexsorcadin/whatever. Firebolt is the default damage cantrip; but you're locked into a fixed amount of damage that doesn't seem to increase very quickly. And fire is the Most-resisted form of damage. EB+invocations adds the Cha mod, can have extended range, and isn't resisted by much. Is there a way to get the same benefits as a "generic" sorcadin? I know I could take EB with Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper, but I couldn't add my Cha mod.

I'm trying to build a character that can do most anything needed, "If need be". I couldn't tank as well as a fighter, but I could hold my own. If pinned down by enemy fire, I could blast my way out. As a Divine Soul, there's be emergency healing available.

Bringing balance to the Force..lol

[dgnslyr]

Don't get me wrong, the Hexsorcadin isn't strictly superior or anything. Being behind in spell levels/build is nothing to sneeze at. This is more of a blending of the major benefits of a full-on Hexadin (short rest smites, Cha SAD) and Sorcadin (high level smite stockpile, metamagics).

Though... I think there's another build I'm ignoring here, in Hexblade 5 for Thirsting Blade. This lets you skip going Paladin 5+ for an easier Paladin 2, then you go Sorcerer 13 for the remainder of the game. You'll lack Channel Divinity, Aura of Protection, Find Steed, credible Lay on Hands, and you won't gain access to much in terms of high level magic, but you do have a smoother progression early by finishing Hexblade first. Outside of the rather lousy ASI gain schedule- if you need a feat, you'd better be Variant Human or you're going to have 16 Cha until level 11. That hurts.

I'm also not really sure this is much better than a Hexblade 5/Sorcerer 15 using Eldritch Smite. That one's certainly easier. Considering how little you gain from Paladin 2 comparatively, I'm not sure I'd pick Hex 5/Pal 2/Sorc 13 over it. Though it's still viable if, for some insane reason, the triple class fits your theme better.

Honestly, I think it's fine to skip Extra Attack entirely and just rely on Blade cantrips. Green-Flame deals 2d8 extra damage at 5th level, and Booming does 3d8 if set it off by moving. Compared to an extra attack, it's equal or better than a 1d8 + MOD from a one-hander, and still competitive with an extra two-handed swing. And cantrips only get better with levels, while there's no way to get a third Extra Attack as a Sorcadin or Hexadin. You get one less swing to land a smite, but more sorcerer levels gets you more and bigger smites, and a second attack doesn't benefit from Owlvantage anyways. Even as a Hexadin, I still think I'd prefer using Blade cantrips over Thirsting Blade at level 5, and they definitely pull ahead by level 11.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Honestly, I think it's fine to skip Extra Attack entirely and just rely on Blade cantrips. Green-Flame deals 2d8 extra damage at 5th level, and Booming does 3d8 if set it off by moving. Compared to an extra attack, it's equal or better than a 1d8 + MOD from a one-hander, and still competitive with an extra two-handed swing. And cantrips only get better with levels, while there's no way to get a third Extra Attack as a Sorcadin or Hexadin. You get one less swing to land a smite, but more sorcerer levels gets you more and bigger smites, and a second attack doesn't benefit from Owlvantage anyways. Even as a Hexadin, I still think I'd prefer using Blade cantrips over Thirsting Blade at level 5, and they definitely pull ahead by level 11.

Extra Attack is most useful once metamagic and specific spells come into play, like Hold Person/Monster, or when you just need to offload as much firepower as possible onto a single target, like dropping a lich before it really gets going. But for consistent damage, you're 100% right- the SCAG cantrips offer better damage <5 and >10, and aren't slouching much between them either.

The part that sucks is that SCAG and Hexblade are naturally incompatible in AL or AL-like games (I know a lot of people like using the PHB+1 rule). If you're in that situation, I think the Sorcadin with SCAG might beat the Hexsorcadin with Xanathar's in damage output, consistent and otherwise. In that situation, it's either Hex 5 or Pal 5, or you're fairly useless in melee.

[paladinn]

Extra Attack is most useful once metamagic and specific spells come into play, like Hold Person/Monster, or when you just need to offload as much firepower as possible onto a single target, like dropping a lich before it really gets going. But for consistent damage, you're 100% right- the SCAG cantrips offer better damage <5 and >10, and aren't slouching much between them either.

The part that sucks is that SCAG and Hexblade are naturally incompatible in AL or AL-like games (I know a lot of people like using the PHB+1 rule). If you're in that situation, I think the Sorcadin with SCAG might beat the Hexsorcadin with Xanathar's in damage output, consistent and otherwise. In that situation, it's either Hex 5 or Pal 5, or you're fairly useless in melee.

Is it fairly common to limit games to PHB+1? I know it's standard for AL games, but I didn't think "private" games would have that limitation.

Personally I think that if it's in an actual rulebook (PHB, XGtE, SCAG, Volo's) then it should be allowed. None of the UA stuff tho..

[Matrix_Walker]

Is it fairly common to limit games to PHB+1? I know it's standard for AL games, but I didn't think "private" games would have that limitation.

Personally I think that if it's in an actual rulebook (PHB, XGtE, SCAG, Volo's) then it should be allowed. None of the UA stuff tho..

Can't speak to "most" but my group is "anything in a published D&D Book, no Unearthed Arcana"

[Storyteller_Arc]

Anyone else get whiplash when you see two posts with the same avatar, thinking that its the same person and a double post that should be editted together, only to sheepishly realize that its actually two different people?

[Waterdeep Merch]

Is it fairly common to limit games to PHB+1? I know it's standard for AL games, but I didn't think "private" games would have that limitation.

Personally I think that if it's in an actual rulebook (PHB, XGtE, SCAG, Volo's) then it should be allowed. None of the UA stuff tho..

It's more like 'a friend of a friend says they play like that'. Outside of AL, I haven't seen it personally.

One of my friends initially wanted to use this rule for his home game, but reneged when a player wanted a Volo race along with a Xanathar's class.

Since I don't play AL anymore, this is more of an academic point.

[paladinn]

Considering just going Sorcadin and taking Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper to get EB. Even if I don't get Agonizing, EB should be better than Firebolt due to the damage type. And it should scale as well as Firebolt.

A few levels in Hexblade would be fun, but I don't know if I really want to delay either Paladin or Sorcerer.

So we have vuman with Magic Initiate.. I'm thinking 6 levels of Paladin (Vengeance or Devotion) to get the auras, then Sorcerer (Divine Soul) the rest for either healing or smiting.

[Aaramis]

All this talk about Hexadin vs. Sorcadin, what if we were to hypothetically compare Sorcadin vs. Sorlock (Hexblade)?

Hexblade can smite as of level 5, so that's a bit delayed compared to Paladin and would require a deep melee "splash", but aside from that it achieves much of what the Sorcadin does, does it not?
Medium armour. Attack + cast in a turn. Hold person + smite goodness.

The obvious difference would be that most Sorcadins tend to go 2 levels in Paladin only, leaving them with a ton of spell slots and spell progression to still be mostly a caster; the melee Sorlock would have far fewer spell slots, but the general melee DPR would be better, especially at higher levels when Lifedrinker and such come online.
Also 2 completely different spell lists - and some of the Warlock spells in XgtE are quite good, especially Shadows of Moil. And only requiring CHA + CON is nice too.

Thoughts?
Has anyone tried a deep Sorlock build, such as 14 Warlock / 6 Sorc, or the opposite, a 15 Sorc / 5 Warlock setup?

[Corran]

All this talk about Hexadin vs. Sorcadin, what if we were to hypothetically compare Sorcadin vs. Sorlock (Hexblade)?

I think this would be better off done in its own thread, as it's beyond the scope of this guide to compare different PC builds. Of course I am not the op (edit: they might feel differently about it), nor can I stop you from typing what you want, I am just saying that personally I would find it inconvenient whenever I am scrolling the posts of this guide for things and ideas that might interest me about a particular multiclass, to have to scroll through numerous posts speaking about sth else entirely.

Spoiler

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As an aside though, I would say that I would definitely prefer a 1-2 hexblade/sorcerer X that a paladin 2/ sorcerer X, and I would probably prefer a bladesinger to either of the previous ones. This is not very relevant to the thread -I think it's relevant to what you asked though-, that's why I put it in a spoiler.

[Gastronomie]

Thanks guise. Since it's true this argument sorta derails from the original concept of the thread, I will create a new topic for that purpose.

[dgnslyr]

Great guide. Thanks for that. I have just started down this path and chose spells and cantrips for first level. Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade, Prestidigitation, Fire Bolt for cantrips. For my spells, I obviously took shield, but the second choice has tripped me up a bit. I wanted Burning Hands since I am Draconic Bloodline - Gold, but it specifically says it takes two hands to cast and I don't have warcaster for three levels. Which leaves me with Thunderwave for an AoE as the only other choice since the wizard in our group has sleep and I don't want to steal his opportunities to shine. Any thoughts?

Playing a pal1/sor1 half elf in Dragon Heist.

Absorb Elements is a nice extra layer of defense, since your weakest save is probably DEX.

[Acavia]

On the 7-13 build, with as few ASIs as you get, I just do not see how that is better than 8-12 for one more ASI. You give up 7th level spells and a sorcery point, but I do not find any sorcerer or cleric spells (if divine soul) that good. I have several T4 characters and one is a divine soul sorcerer level 18, warlock 2. It has no level 7th level spells known. There are some okay spells at 7th level that I might take if no restriction but with the limited known spells number, I find none of value. People point out Crown of Stars but if you are often quickening spells, as a sorcerer warlock would with eldritch blast or you are melee with polearm, it would have no value, plus the spell slots could be used to gain more than half your sorcerer points instead of casting.

What am I missing?

[Spiritchaser]

This is a fairly build specific comment however:

It is often given as an absolute that sword and board sorcadins will require warcaster, however this isn’t quite absolute.

I’d direct attention to a dexterity sorcerer 1, paladin 6+, sorcerer x who starts with sorcerer for the con save, and who primarily uses shadow blade (possibly with Elven accuracy).

You have proficiency in con saves plus your aura. You don’t need advantage.
You can drop your sword at will to cast, because hey, Shadow blade!
It’s awkward to quicken hold then attack, but if you’re doing this then you’re dropping your concentration on shadow blade anyway, and can nearly always free action draw a rapier.
.
Is warcaster still important, useful and worth it for this character?

Yes.

But the build is absolutely playable without, and not having to take it brings some nice options and benefits.

[Aussiehams]

G'day.
Everything I've seen here has Pally stopping very early. Is their any point going Pal 18 or 19, with one or two levels of sorc? I was specifically thinking shadow.
Or maybe 1-2 levels of Hexblade.

Any strong thoughts on this?

[Ghost Nappa]

G'day.
Everything I've seen here has Pally stopping very early. Is their any point going Pal 18 or 19, with one or two levels of sorc? I was specifically thinking shadow.
Or maybe 1-2 levels of Hexblade.

Any strong thoughts on this?

That's more of a Paladin build. That's not to say you couldn't do it, but the OP is more concerned with more of a mix.

That being said, I don't see much of a point in Paladin 18/Sorc 2. You lose an ASI and your final Sacred Oath feature for some cantrips, and some Level 1 Spells, and a Level 6 slot? It's not a good trade. If you've gotten to Paladin 18, you might as well go the full 20.

[Treshian]

Thanks guise. Since it's true this argument sorta derails from the original concept of the thread, I will create a new topic for that purpose.

I agree with doing this. I wondered if you had an idea of when you would be able to update the guide about the Xanathar and later content for the strictly Paladin and Sorcerer characters though. :)

Great guide, big fan. :)

[Owin]

Just wanted to start off by saying great guide! I spent 30 hours in the last week going over it because I'll be starting my first 5th edition campaign soon and wanted to thank you for your detail that went into this.I'll be starting at level 7 and have decided to go Pala6/Sorc1 since our party is already caster heavy and needed a more committed tank, but believe me I'll be going all sorc from here on out.

I went and bought myself the necessary books PHP, DMG, SCAG, & XGTE for the campaign and noticed in my copy of SCAG that they must have errata'd Oath of the Crown because Champion Challenge now takes a bonus action. a bit of a setback but nothing serious I will give you one other great thing with Oath of the Crown though.

the spell Warding Bond

Spoiler: Warding Bond spell

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"While the target is within 60 feet of you, it gains a +1 bonus to armor class and saving throws, and it has resistance to all damage. Also, each time it takes damage, you take the same amount of damage. The spell ends if you drop to 0 hit points or if you and the target become separated by more than 60 feet. It also ends if the spell is cast again on either of the connected creatures. You can dismiss the spell as an action." there is nothing on the spell that says you can't target yourself, why is this important? it doesn't require Concentration to use so you can keep this spell going while concentrating another spell. All the while you're taking 2 different damage sources making concentration checks easier!

[Swosh]

Hi, first and foremost I wanted to thank you Gastronomie for this great guide, you've really done a wonderful job!

I was thinking since your working on an update about the guide, I wanted to give some perspective about the multiclass section particularly on how a Sorcadin with a lvl 3-5 dip into a Sword-Bard could be quite advantageous. As a lvl 3 Swords-Bard (6 Pala / 11 Sorc / 3 Bard) as opposed to the classic (6 Pala / 14 Sorc)

You will gain:
- Bard is a full caster, so you wont lose any spell slots
- Access to Bard lvl 2 spells
- 2 more cantrips known
- 5 more! spells known (Which we all know is a weak spot for the sorcerer)
- Ritual Casting (Nice if you go Bard 5 and get Leomond's Hut for safe long rests)
- 3 more hit points (Unless your draconic sorcerer, then its equal)
- 1 more skill proficency
- Jack of All Trades
- Expertise
- Song of Rest
- 5 Bardic Inspiration Die (20 Cha)
- 2nd Fighting Style
- Blade Flourish (Very stong AC boost + some extra added nova)


What you will lose:
- 3 Sorcerer Points
- Access to lvl 7 spells (Lets face it, it is not as great as for a wizard that gets to pick simulacrum + with the sorcerers limited spells known, you most likely would only have 1 lvl 7 spell anyways, if any at all)
- ASI (Unless you go bard 4+) / Access to lvl 6 spells (Unless you go bard 3)
- lvl 14 Sorcerer Feature


Bard 5 also seems like an interesting option where you would keep your ASI and also get a stronger Bardic Inspiration (meaning more AC and nova), Font of Inspiration (Get back Bardic Inspiration on a short rest) and access to Bard lvl 3 spells, but lose access to Sorcerer lvl 6 spells (which unfortunaly means our favorite mass suggestion), the 3rd metamagic option and 2 more sorcerer points

The Sword-Bard Sorcadin multiclass combinations also has a nice synergy with Armor of Agathys, beacuse of your high AC they wouldnt be able to damage you, while taking damage themselves should they try to attack you in melee. Armor of Agathys also scales very nicely for upcasting (A lvl 9 slot giving 45 temporary HP and 45 damage to attacker when hit). This brings me to another potensial point as many people in this thread has allready been talking about, is it worth a lvl 1 dip into hexblade? To aquire Armor of Agathys there is 3 ways you can go about it, 1. You can dip hexblade, 2.You can take conquest paladin or 3. You can take the feat magic initiate. Personally i would say nr 3 is kind of out of the question beacuse you are allready ASI hungry, so that leaves nr 1 and nr 2. Lets have a look at the advantages and disadvantages with a dip into Hexblade for ex. (6 Pala / 10 Sorc / 3 Bard / 1 Lock),

You will gain;
- Access to Armor of Agathys and Shield (to free up 1 of your Sorcerer spells known)
- Access to Eldrich Blast
- 2 more cantrips known
- 1 more spells known
- 1 lvl 1 slot that resets on a short rest
- Hex Warrior (Making you SAD, which is particularly good late game when your sitting on 20 cha and only 16 str)
- Hex Blades Curse (As mentioned before its a nice addition against bosses)
- Frees up your Paladin Oath (you can for example pick vengance for a nice advantage/crit fish or crown for a more tanky build)

You will lose:
- Access to lvl 9 spell slot
- Access to Sorcerer lvl 6 spells
- 1 Sorcerer point

Is this worth it? I dont know, losing access to both your lvl 9 spell slot and sorcerer lvl 6 spells is quite a big deal on the other hand the benefits you gain is not that small either, partlicularly the Hex warrior, that basically gives you 2 Free ASI alone. Do keep in mind that the hex warrior also synergises with Blade Flourish, beacuse if you cant hit the creature on your attack you cant use Blade Flourish either.

Anyways ive been rambling on a while now so, overall I would concider the Sword-Bard Sorcadin multiclass a strong option in many cases with or without hexblade, but thats my take on the hole thing, I would love to hear what you guys think.



Final thought: I would strongly advice to take a look at the Guru's guide on metamagic for sorcerers, its a great source of inspiration when evaluating different options of metamagics, particularly the subtle spell.
Link: drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iSkNLeVBISzZxMzQ/view