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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    8th and 9th level spells you'd get to cast 1/long rest each. Or twice, if you cast an 8th level spell from 9th level slot.

    Extra Attacks, Aura of Protection, and bonus spells always known/prepared will be useful much more often.

    I dunno, to me Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 seems a whole lot more tempting.
    Yeah I would agree unless you are getting constant Long Rest isn't not a threat. Especially for a Stone Sorcerer because your capstone isn't critical especially compared to Phoenix or Sea. I mean its nice but not special.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    8th and 9th level spells you'd get to cast 1/long rest each. Or twice, if you cast an 8th level spell from 9th level slot.

    Extra Attacks, Aura of Protection, and bonus spells always known/prepared will be useful much more often.

    I dunno, to me Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 seems a whole lot more tempting.
    Foresight all day advantage to everything is crazy good. Although level 8 is once per day it can end an encounter all by itself. So I don't know and also when do you start paladin levels for a stone sorcerer. You kinda want the level 14 stone's edge asap. Delaying more than 2 levels would mean for most games you won't even see it since most games don't even go to 20.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I want to say, in loving this guide, especially since my DM is letting me play Sorcadin with the new favored soul that has access to the cleric list. I wanted to play primarily a tank with some buffing abilities, so paladin 6 and Warcaster/booming blade are must haves. We're level 7, however, and I wanted more than 1 level of sorcerer to play with. I was thinking oath of the crown paladin 1/favored soul 4/oath of the crown 2 for now, and in the future get 3 more levels in paladin for the aura, then take the rest in sorcerer. The DM has confirmed the campaign will be going to high levels, so that's good. I'm playing a half elf, so ability scores aren't bad, but level 4 ASI has to go to warcaster. Any ideas for spell selection?

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Foresight all day advantage to everything is crazy good. Although level 8 is once per day it can end an encounter all by itself. So I don't know and also when do you start paladin levels for a stone sorcerer. You kinda want the level 14 stone's edge asap. Delaying more than 2 levels would mean for most games you won't even see it since most games don't even go to 20.
    Eh 14/6 can with the right Paladin Oath get you advantage on quite a bit. But yeah 14/6 is far more optimal in a game you know is going to go late. It seriously delays your spell progression. Anything More 2-3 Dips causes that issue though.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Foresight all day advantage to everything is crazy good. Although level 8 is once per day it can end an encounter all by itself. So I don't know and also when do you start paladin levels for a stone sorcerer. You kinda want the level 14 stone's edge asap. Delaying more than 2 levels would mean for most games you won't even see it since most games don't even go to 20.
    Foresight is amazing, yes, and the Advantage makes up for not having CHA to saves... but it's not on the Sorcerer list . Since it's 9th level, you can't cast it with Wish either (unless you want a 1/3 chance of never casting Wish again).

    I think PLD 6 / SOR 14 is the best split, with PLD 2 / WLK 4 / SOR 14 using Shillelagh also being an option, though the leveling for it is extremely bumpy due to splitting progress across three classes.
    Last edited by MisterSocrates; 2017-02-10 at 01:55 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    No Extra Attack to fall back on though.

    But yeah mixing 3 Classes really requires an accelerated campaign that you know is running late. Also takes more work to figure out the optimal time to take each class.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    ChaosRonin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    For a more focused dex and skill build would bard be the better option? What's the pro cons for Pld6/Brd14 vs Pld6./Src14 ?

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterSocrates View Post
    Foresight is amazing, yes, and the Advantage makes up for not having CHA to saves... but it's not on the Sorcerer list . Since it's 9th level, you can't cast it with Wish either (unless you want a 1/3 chance of never casting Wish again).

    I think PLD 6 / SOR 14 is the best split, with PLD 2 / WLK 4 / SOR 14 using Shillelagh also being an option, though the leveling for it is extremely bumpy due to splitting progress across three classes.
    I guess it is only Wish that is a decent level 9 spell on the sorcerer. I am mixing my spell lists , I am playing a wizard atm. Anyway I still feel the leveling of a 6/14 stone sorcerer is very painful. Especially if you want the swordmage feel fast.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    I guess it is only Wish that is a decent level 9 spell on the sorcerer. I am mixing my spell lists , I am playing a wizard atm. Anyway I still feel the leveling of a 6/14 stone sorcerer is very painful. Especially if you want the swordmage feel fast.
    Make an arcane spellcaster, wield a sword, and cast spells in equal measure: behold, a swordmage! /s
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-02-11 at 12:00 AM. Reason: Forgot color, lol

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosRonin View Post
    For a more focused dex and skill build would bard be the better option? What's the pro cons for Pld6/Brd14 vs Pld6./Src14 ?
    The difference is in the spell list and the metamagic. If you want any blasting capability (early on) or you want to bend spells to your will, then sorc is the way to go. If you want more of a skills/CC focus, then bard is a fantastic substitute.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Hi everyone, first post on the forums. First I'd like to say this guide was amazing, both in terms of helpfulness and comprehensiveness. I came across this thread when I was looking into porting an old epic level character from 3.5 into 5e, and I found it immensely useful. I'm not usually someone who optimizes in the extreme, though I do prefer to build characters that are the best versions of themselves they can reasonably be.

    That said, after reading through this guide a number of times and converting a lv.20 Vengeance Paladin into a lv. 6/14 demi-god (which fits him lore-wise anyway), I have to say I think the new Favored Soul in UA has a good deal to offer as a sorcerous origin just by virtue of it opening up the list to Cleric spells. Gaining access to Quickened/Twinned Guiding Bolt as a 1st level spell seems exceptional, and access to Death Ward (non concentration KO negation buff for you and possible +1) or a number of the Paladin spells you forego by multiclassing into Sorcerer also seems great.

    I know its still a very new option but I was curious if anyone has any opinions or insight into a build like this yet (or if there are some interactions my neophyte understanding of magic rules have misled me about).

    For sake of a starting point, this is what I came up with for a Point-buy GWM build, Pal (Vengeance) 6/Sorc (Favored Soul 14)

    Spoiler: Paladin of Severe Reprimanding
    Show

    Race: Variant Human (+1 STR/+1 CHA; Perception, Resilient (CON +1))
    Stat Array: 15/8/15/8/8/15
    Final Stats (lv. 20): 18/8/16/8/8/20 (This is assuming we will get magic items, I intend to get a big STR boosting item)
    Background: Soldier (Athletics, Intimidation)

    Saves: (4/9/-1/-1/5/11) + CHA = (9/14/4/4/10/15)
    Skills:] Athletics +10, Perception +5, Insight, +5, Intimidation 11(17 w/double Proficiency from Blessed Countenance*), Persuasion +11(+17*)

    Paladin lv 6
    Skills: Persuasion, Insight
    Weapon Style: Defense
    Oath: Vengeance (Chosen for Misty Step and Hold Person as Oath spells, as well as 1/day free permanent advantage on a target. The opportunity cost of not getting CHA bonus to my attack rolls I'm hoping will be mitigated by Guiding Bolt, among other things)
    ASI: +2 STR

    Spells Prepared (Oath+8):
    1st) [Bane, Hunters Mark] Bless, Command, Cure Wounds, Shield of Faith, Protection G/E, Thunderous Smite, Wrathful Smite
    2nd) [Misty Step, Hold Person] Branding Smite

    Sorcerer lv 14
    Origin: Favored Soul. Chosen for access to Cleric spell list (Guiding Bolt, Geas, Death Ward, Divine Word, cantrips in my Spells Known),
    Supernatural Resilience (lv 1): +1 Hp/sorc lv.,
    Favored By the Gods (lv. 1): 1/short rest +2d4 to an attack roll or save
    Blessed Countenance: Imposing (lv. 8): Double proficieny when applied to CHA checks w/proficiency, and
    Divine Purit (lv. 14): Immunity to Poison damage/Condition and diseases.
    Immunity to Poisoned condition in particular seems very good. The 1/rest +2d4 also seems great, and the CHA bonus feature really pumps the social skills for role as face (+17 to Pursuade/Intimidate).
    Metamagic: Quickened, Heightened; Twinned
    Heightened complements a number of save related spells that I chose, and being able to twin Guiding Bolt and Death Ward seems like justification for me all by itself, to say nothing of Haste or offensive options.

    ASIs: +2 CHA, Great Weapon Master, +2 CHA

    Spells Known:

    Cantrips (*Cleric spell):
    Booming Blade, Message, Minor Illusion, Guidance*, Sacred Flame*, Thaumaturgy* (this might be too cute, but booming voice + Divine Word...?)
    1st) Shield, Guiding Bolt* (Is this as good for this build as it sounds? Radiant Damage and free advantage from a level 1 spell)
    2nd) Mirror Image
    3rd) Haste, Fireball (reaaaaaaaaaally considering Fear)
    4th) Banishment, Death Ward*
    5th) Geas*, Hold Monster
    6th) Mass Suggestion, Divine Word*
    7th) Teleport, Reverse Gravity

    Spoiler: Spell choice rationale
    Show
    Rationale for spells:
    Since I'm not a S&B tank, I opted for things like Shield, Mirror Image, and Death Ward to help my frontline survivability (all buffs without Concentration demands), and hoped to make up for lost lockdown potential with Booming Blade, the prepared utility smites, and battlefield control spells like Hold X, Mass Suggestion, Reverse Gravity. On the AoE damage/control front I opted for Fireball and Divine Word, which seem to synergizee great on paper (Fireball -> Divine Word the rest, or just clean up with the appropriate spell when the rest of the party does their thing first); a great advantage of Divine Word in this respect is that you chose who actually has to save, meaning less need for Careful Spell. Reverse Gravity for total battle field control if needed, and Teleport for being great utility and escape.

    Spells for gaining advantage and removing specific targets from existence: Guiding Bolt, Hold X, Banishment, Geas

    Some of the utility spells like Banishment and Geas can fill lots of roles, but also allow me to be both surgical and nonlethal if need be with debuffs. Tons of the spells in the list call for saves, so Heightened Spell augments a lot of these choices, and is part of the reason for maxed CHA over the last STR ASI.

    For the cantrips, Guidance just seems great, Messaging someone with a telepathic+silent negotiation/intimidation check at +17 seems fun, Sacred Flame gives me 4d8 ranged Rad damage at will, covering a lot of bases. Minor Illusion is what it is, and Booming Blade gives some lockdown. Thaumaturgy is for utility, but it lets you project your voice which sounds like an Army Killer in combination with Divine Word's "anyone who can hear you" range; maybe I'm overestimating this but I couldnt resist.



    I know for certain there is a lot of room for optimization of this guy (and if you have suggestions I'd love to hear them), but I'm predominantly interested in discussing the implications Favored Soul opens up with the divine spell list. I'm sure I missed a lot of good choices in looking, but it seems to me a lot of cleric spells have the potential to provide excellent buffs and utility without demanding concentration or which let you choose targets within the threatened area w/o Careful Spell, not to mention the fact that the Favored Soul origin is the only way to metamagic cleric spells (at least off the same casting stat). Are the benefits enough to make it a real contender for optimal sorcerous origin for certain builds? Are there glaring flaws or opportunity costs that I'm overlooking? I'd love to hear more experienced players' thoughts/experiences on this.

    EDIT: fixed some typos and errors, I'm sure there will be more.
    EDIT: there were.
    Last edited by Noumena; 2017-02-14 at 05:39 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #282
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Noumena View Post
    Hi everyone, first post on the forums. First I'd like to say this guide was amazing, both in terms of helpfulness and comprehensiveness. I came across this thread when I was looking into porting an old epic level character from 3.5 into 5e, and I found it immensely useful. I'm not usually someone who optimizes in the extreme, though I do prefer to build characters that are the best versions of themselves they can reasonably be.

    That said, after reading through this guide a number of times and converting a lv.20 Vengeance Paladin into a lv. 6/14 demi-god (which fits him lore-wise anyway), I have to say I think the new Favored Soul in UA has a good deal to offer as a sorcerous origin just by virtue of it opening up the list to Cleric spells. Gaining access to Quickened/Twinned Guiding Bolt as a 1st level spell seems exceptional, and access to Death Ward (non concentration KO negation buff for you and possible +1) or a number of the Paladin spells you forego by multiclassing into Sorcerer also seems great.

    I know its still a very new option but I was curious if anyone has any opinions or insight into a build like this yet (or if there are some interactions my neophyte understanding of magic rules have misled me about).

    For sake of a starting point, this is what I came up with for a Point-buy GWM build, Pal (Vengeance) 6/Sorc (Favored Soul 14)

    Spoiler: Paladin of Severe Reprimanding
    Show

    Race: Variant Human (+1 STR/+1 CHA; Perception, Resilient (CON +1))
    Stat Array: 15/8/15/8/8/15
    Final Stats (lv. 20): 18/8/16/8/8/20 (This is assuming we will get magic items, I intend to get a big STR boosting item)
    Background: Soldier (Athletics, Intimidation)

    Saves: (4/9/-1/-1/5/11) + CHA = (9/14/4/4/10/15)
    Skills:] Athletics +10, Perception +5, Insight, +5, Intimidation 11(17 w/double Proficiency from Blessed Countenance*), Persuasion +11(+17*)

    Paladin lv 6
    Skills: Persuasion, Insight
    Weapon Style: Defense
    Oath: Vengeance (Chosen for Misty Step and Hold Person as Oath spells, as well as 1/day free permanent advantage on a target. The opportunity cost of not getting CHA bonus to my attack rolls I'm hoping will be mitigated by Guiding Bolt, among other things)
    ASI: +2 STR

    Spells Prepared (Oath+8):
    1st) [Bane, Hunters Mark] Bless, Command, Cure Wounds, Shield of Faith, Protection G/E, Thunderous Smite, Wrathful Smite
    2nd) [Misty Step, Hold Person] Branding Smite

    Sorcerer lv 14
    Origin: Favored Soul. Chosen for access to Cleric spell list (Guiding Bolt, Geas, Death Ward, Divine Word, cantrips in my Spells Known),
    Supernatural Resilience (lv 1): +1 Hp/sorc lv.,
    Favored By the Gods (lv. 1): 1/short rest +2d4 to an attack roll or save
    Blessed Countenance: Imposing (lv. 8): Double proficieny when applied to CHA checks w/proficiency, and
    Divine Purit (lv. 14): Immunity to Poison damage/Condition and diseases.
    Immunity to Poisoned condition in particular seems very good. The 1/rest +2d4 also seems great, and the CHA bonus feature really pumps the social skills for role as face (+17 to Pursuade/Intimidate).
    Metamagic: Quickened, Heightened; Twinned
    Heightened complements a number of save related spells that I chose, and being able to twin Guiding Bolt and Death Ward seems like justification for me all by itself, to say nothing of Haste or offensive options.

    ASIs: +2 CHA, Great Weapon Master, +2 CHA

    Spells Known:

    Cantrips (*Cleric spell):
    Booming Blade, Message, Minor Illusion, Guidance*, Sacred Flame*, Thaumaturgy* (this might be too cute, but booming voice + Divine Word...?)
    1st) Shield, Guiding Bolt* (Is this as good for this build as it sounds? Radiant Damage and free advantage from a level 1 spell)
    2nd) Mirror Image
    3rd) Haste, Fireball (reaaaaaaaaaally considering Fear)
    4th) Banishment, Death Ward*
    5th) Geas*, Hold Monster
    6th) Mass Suggestion, Divine Word*
    7th) Teleport, Reverse Gravity

    Spoiler: Spell choice rationale
    Show
    Rationale for spells:
    Since I'm not a S&B tank, I opted for things like Shield, Mirror Image, and Death Ward to help my frontline survivability (all buffs without Concentration demands), and hoped to make up for lost lockdown potential with Booming Blade, the prepared utility smites, and battlefield control spells like Hold X, Mass Suggestion, Reverse Gravity. On the AoE damage/control front I opted for Fireball and Divine Word, which seem to synergizee great on paper (Fireball -> Divine Word the rest, or just clean up with the appropriate spell when the rest of the party does their thing first); a great advantage of Divine Word in this respect is that you chose who actually has to save, meaning less need for Careful Spell. Reverse Gravity for total battle field control if needed, and Teleport for being great utility and escape.

    Spells for gaining advantage and removing specific targets from existence: Guiding Bolt, Hold X, Banishment, Geas

    Some of the utility spells like Banishment and Geas can fill lots of roles, but also allow me to be both surgical and nonlethal if need be with debuffs. Tons of the spells in the list call for saves, so Heightened Spell augments a lot of these choices, and is part of the reason for maxed CHA over the last STR ASI.

    For the cantrips, Guidance just seems great, Messaging someone with a telepathic+silent negotiation/intimidation check at +17 seems fun, Sacred Flame gives me 4d8 ranged Rad damage at will, covering a lot of bases. Minor Illusion is what it is, and Booming Blade gives some lockdown. Thaumaturgy is for utility, but it lets you project your voice which sounds like an Army Killer in combination with Divine Word's "anyone who can hear you" range; maybe I'm overestimating this but I couldnt resist.



    I know for certain there is a lot of room for optimization of this guy (and if you have suggestions I'd love to hear them), but I'm predominantly interested in discussing the implications Favored Soul opens up with the divine spell list. I'm sure I missed a lot of good choices in looking, but it seems to me a lot of cleric spells have the potential to provide excellent buffs and utility without demanding concentration or which let you choose targets within the threatened area w/o Careful Spell, not to mention the fact that the Favored Soul origin is the only way to metamagic cleric spells (at least off the same casting stat). Are the benefits enough to make it a real contender for optimal sorcerous origin for certain builds? Are there glaring flaws or opportunity costs that I'm overlooking? I'd love to hear more experienced players' thoughts/experiences on this.

    EDIT: fixed some typos and errors, I'm sure there will be more.
    EDIT: there were.
    Hi there :) the only things I can really think of that isn't already in the guide is that Find Steed is great with creative application instead of one of the Smite spells or Shield of Faith once you get Haste. I have no idea if Thaumaturgy works with Divine Word, probably a DM call. Message is situational, but other than having the option to Green Flame Blade I can't think of anything better. Shocking Grasp? Lightning Lure maybe?

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    . Shadowblade .'s Avatar

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    Question Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Hi,

    do you have some analysis of Oathbreaker 7+/Undying Light warl. 2/Draconic sorc.6+ vs new Hexblade warlock?
    Undying Light still looks like more profitable for just 2 levels dip and does more at-will dmg (with Radiant Soul),
    when Hexblade cant use his CHA for 2-handed weapons and his Curse Bringer invocation (Greatsword (STR), level 3 dip min., so it is still MAD even with Hex Warrior)
    Last edited by . Shadowblade .; 2017-02-21 at 11:14 AM.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Wait hold up. How do arcane foci work?

    Spellcasting says you need a component pouch or a focus to cast spells with non-expensive material components. The rules on multiclassing say you need the focus of the associated spell's class. So, Sorcadins need two foci: a holy symbol, and an arcane focus. But the rules about components say you need a free hand to hold the foci or use a component pouch, except the holy symbol, which specifically states you can wear it. So, how do you use an arcane focus, but also wield a sword/shield or two handed weapon? Do you just pick spells that don't have material components or do you hope your DM doesn't care? Or is there something obvious I'm missing?

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Generally you take the warcaster feat to sword & board. Alternatives include using two handed weapons (since you can just let go with one hand to cast the spell, then grab the weapon again), or to fight with a staff and shield, since staff foci can also be used as quarterstaff weapons according to some readings of miscellaneous lines here and there - it's not an ironclad interpretation, but it is a common one.
    The pursuit of knowledge requires a mind unfettered by the petty constraints of ethics, faith, or ... mortality.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Generally you take the warcaster feat to sword & board. Alternatives include using two handed weapons (since you can just let go with one hand to cast the spell, then grab the weapon again), or to fight with a staff and shield, since staff foci can also be used as quarterstaff weapons according to some readings of miscellaneous lines here and there - it's not an ironclad interpretation, but it is a common one.
    Wait, warcaster lets you ignore material components? I thought it was just somatic.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicrosil View Post
    Wait hold up. How do arcane foci work?

    Spellcasting says you need a component pouch or a focus to cast spells with non-expensive material components. The rules on multiclassing say you need the focus of the associated spell's class. So, Sorcadins need two foci: a holy symbol, and an arcane focus. But the rules about components say you need a free hand to hold the foci or use a component pouch, except the holy symbol, which specifically states you can wear it. So, how do you use an arcane focus, but also wield a sword/shield or two handed weapon? Do you just pick spells that don't have material components or do you hope your DM doesn't care? Or is there something obvious I'm missing?
    A few answers:
    • For greatsword sorcadins, wear an crystal arcane focus and a holy symbol on chains around your neck. Take one hand off the 2-hander to grasp the focus/symbol and cast without dropping the weapon.
    • For one-handed sorcadins, your shield is your holy symbol, and then for your arcane focus requirement either A) take warcaster, or B) use a staff arcane focus as an improvised quarterstaff as your weapon. Note that B is somewhat controversial, as RAW is ambiguous whether a focus staff can double as a weapon.
    • Alternately, you can get really weird and creative with the action economy, and do things like cast then draw a weapon as your object interaction, or drop a weapon as a free action and then cast. This gets really weird and micromanagy, and can slow down combat quite a bit.
    • Also, many DMs find 5e's complicated and annoying "what's in your hand and how can you drop/switch it" rules to be unnecessary, and just basically ignore them as a houserule (meaning do whatever you want, and don't worry about whether you need a free hand to cast -- just assume your character has a way to do it). Check with your DM to see if he/she of this opinion.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    No, you're right, it's just somatic you get to ignore. Spells w/ material components you just don't cast while your weapon's drawn.
    The pursuit of knowledge requires a mind unfettered by the petty constraints of ethics, faith, or ... mortality.

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    No, you're right, it's just somatic you get to ignore. Spells w/ material components you just don't cast while your weapon's drawn.
    We play it [warcaster] resolves the free hand requirement so you can cast with both hands full if you have the component pouch on you.

  20. - Top - End - #290
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Alright, thanks for the answers! It sounds like my options as a sword/board Sorcadin casting spells with material components while also swording/boarding are:
    A. Convince my DM to let me wear an arcane focus.
    B. Don't, or
    C. Find some convoluted chain of actions.

    Thankfully, my DM's pretty lenient, and I'm playing a Favored Soul, so I could probably convince him to let me use a hybrid holy symbol/arcane focus.

  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    So assuming the new warlock smite rules stay, sorcadins basically become obsolete right? I mean warlocks can have better smites and mesh better with sorcerers. The only real drawback is the lack of heavy armor, but thats not the worst thing in the world

  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    For 2 to 3 level paladin versions? probably. But the level 6 aura, and several of the level 7 auras, are still very worth a place in a build. And a paladin multiclass that dips hexblade can actually take advantage of that cha to attacks ability while still being able to smite. Sure, the smites aren't as big, but still, a hexblade/sorcerer who ditches strength to attack with cha doesn't have any smites at all.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    For 2 to 3 level paladin versions? probably. But the level 6 aura, and several of the level 7 auras, are still very worth a place in a build. And a paladin multiclass that dips hexblade can actually take advantage of that cha to attacks ability while still being able to smite. Sure, the smites aren't as big, but still, a hexblade/sorcerer who ditches strength to attack with cha doesn't have any smites at all.
    Exactly. The smiting Invocations are all Str based. The Hexblade Patron's smite uses a greatsword, which can't be used with Cha. The other Patrons' smite Invocations use other Str based weapons, but don't get to use Cha because they don't have the Hexblade patron.
    So if you wanted to use Str to smite, then you could now use Warlock instead of Pally.
    If you wanted to use Dex for melee, then you're better off with Pally.
    If you wanted the Auras, then you still need Pally.
    If you wanted to use Cha to smite, you are still out of luck.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by LVOD View Post
    So assuming the new warlock smite rules stay, sorcadins basically become obsolete right? I mean warlocks can have better smites and mesh better with sorcerers. The only real drawback is the lack of heavy armor, but thats not the worst thing in the world
    Also assuming you're using those rules. Its not Core, RAW material, plus there's a lot of people playing in games where UA isn't legal.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I would have said yes if Favored Soul didn't get a rewrite. Nothing would have stood against the might of 17 Favored Soul/3 HexBlade Blade Pact. Aura would be the only thing Sorcadins had over you which you could replicate looting the Cleric Spell List.

    But as it is now. Sorlocks tilt more towards doing damage be it from range or in melee range while Paladins still have the edge in takiness and helping teammates.

    Course the Precise Mix Still Matters. But you never going 7 Warlock and 13 Sorcerer like you might for a Sorcadin.

    Honestly, the main decision is still how much do you think Extra Attack is Worth?
    Last edited by skaddix; 2017-02-21 at 10:52 PM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    First off I loved your guide, and it inspired me to make a Sorcadin myself in adventures league play. I am loving it so far, but I am really struggling to decide on what spells to take though. I would love some advice on second, third, and fourth level spells. I am playing a Vengeance Paladin6 Draconic Sorcerer14 (2 currently) that has relisient CON, a Belt of Dwarvenkind, and a Staff of Power. I am taking quickened spell and twinned spell as my metamagic options. So far my planned spells known are as follows;
    1st - Shield, Feather Fall
    2nd - Suggestion, Scorching Ray
    3rd - Haste, Counterspell, Fireball
    4th - Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility

    My main concern is that I have too many concentration spells, and am not sure what to switch out. But at the same time my CON save is high enough to capitalize on these concentration spells. I am going with gold draconic bloodline, so fire spells have been prioritized. Is it better to remove haste once I get access to greater invisibility? The other 4th lv spells I am considering are banishment, dimension door, and polymorph. I would love any advice on what spells to take. Thanks!

  27. - Top - End - #297
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFallen View Post
    First off I loved your guide, and it inspired me to make a Sorcadin myself in adventures league play. I am loving it so far, but I am really struggling to decide on what spells to take though. I would love some advice on second, third, and fourth level spells. I am playing a Vengeance Paladin6 Draconic Sorcerer14 (2 currently) that has relisient CON, a Belt of Dwarvenkind, and a Staff of Power. I am taking quickened spell and twinned spell as my metamagic options. So far my planned spells known are as follows;
    1st - Shield, Feather Fall
    2nd - Suggestion, Scorching Ray
    3rd - Haste, Counterspell, Fireball
    4th - Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility

    My main concern is that I have too many concentration spells, and am not sure what to switch out. But at the same time my CON save is high enough to capitalize on these concentration spells. I am going with gold draconic bloodline, so fire spells have been prioritized. Is it better to remove haste once I get access to greater invisibility? The other 4th lv spells I am considering are banishment, dimension door, and polymorph. I would love any advice on what spells to take. Thanks!
    Unless you're constantly fighting over bridges and stuff, I wouldn't sweat Feather Fall.

    As for Greater Invisibility vs. Haste, what are you using each spell for? It's not a bad idea to have both, due to spell slot rationing, but Twinned Greater Invisibility trivializes encounters in a way that Haste does not. If you care more about the protective aspects of Greater Invisibility than always-on advantage, might I suggest swapping it out and preparing Protection from Good and Evil with your paladin spell slot instead? That spell gets heavily underrated in most guides even though it provides protection from everything you really care about except for Humanoids (you have Hold Person for that, which since you have six levels of Paladin and Quicken Spell, why not?) and Dragons -- but you'd be screwed against dragons even with Greater Invisibility and Blur.

    Also, if you have a Staff of Power you definitely don't need Wall of Fire and you probably don't need Fireball. You've also outgrown Scorching Ray, too. Instead of Scorching Ray, might I suggest grabbing Enhance Ability if someone else in your party has Bless/Guidance for on-demand skill-monkeying, Misty Step, Mirror Image (great with Quicken Spell!), Suggestion, Hold Person, or Web? D&D in the mid-levels is all about conserving resources and I feel that your spell selection is too lopsided towards things you're already good at.

    As an aside, don't feel that you HAVE to get the most out of your Draconic bloodline by picking fire spells. As long as you have Fireball and Greenflame Blade, you're getting your money's worth.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    8th and 9th level spells you'd get to cast 1/long rest each. Or twice, if you cast an 8th level spell from 9th level slot.

    Extra Attacks, Aura of Protection, and bonus spells always known/prepared will be useful much more often.

    I dunno, to me Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 seems a whole lot more tempting.
    With the sole exception of the original Favored Soul Sorcerer as the base (which I still think is the best Sorcerer path, especially Forge or Trickery Favored Souls), I'm going to have to agree. Unlike Bladesingers, Armor Abjurers, or even Bladelocks, Sorcerers don't get any REALLY killer-app abilities in their 8th and 9th level spell slots. Or even their 6th and 7th levels. The only spells you really wish you had (accelerated) access to are Disintegrate (which I think is overrated), Mass Suggestion, Reverse Gravity, Teleport (if no one else has it), Meteor Swarm, and Wish.

    Delaying Contingency and Antipathy/Sympathy and Clone and Mind Blank and True Polymorph and Forcecage and Magic Jar and Mirage Arcane and Foresight and Investiture of Stone and Otto's Irresistible Dance and Simulacrulum and Maze even by one level really, really hurts as a Bladesinger. Delaying 6-9th level spells as a Sorcerer-Paladin, though? Except for Wish and Teleport, you can mostly fill your ricebowl with creative usage of lower-level spells and metamagic. And as for Wish -- while it will cause you to completely dominate the table, you're only going to get to play with it for two levels, tops, as opposed to the Bladesinger's four.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2017-02-26 at 04:50 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #299
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    About Wish. Doesn't it have a chance to become never usable again after you've used it? I'd much rather have some more consistent abilities than potentially once in a life-time Wish.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    If you use it just for duplicating lower-level spells (which is more than powerful enough!) you won't suffer a chance of stress backlash.

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