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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    My idea for this character is very different (I favor half elf paladin 2/ sorcerer X with a long sword and shield), but I really appreciate the time, effort and dedication you put into your character, and your post.

    Thank you so much.
    Thank you for the kind words.
    I had a thought about feat selection and race choice for your build.

    This is not a criticism for the split, I try to present an argument regarding race/feat optimization as far as this specific split (ie 2/18) goes. Just follow my train of thought (and please feel free to correct me where you think I am wrong, as I am mostly guessing here).

    Pal2/sorc18 STR-build (aka longsword).
    Idea: I am tempted to think that vhuman would slightly edge the halfelf for this specific split (though the same would hold true for a 3/17 split perhaps), and here is why:

    So, this build has a lot of sorcery points, spell slots, quicker access to hight level spells.... in short, he is caster for the most part. He can sure be played as one, meaning being at a distance and relying on smtes and a good AC as a last resort when enemies gang up on him (pretty much like a cautious bladesinger, plus the smiting for getting rid of enemies that closed in faster), but that takes half the fun away, doesn't it? So at this point I make the assumption that this build is to not be restricted to playing just like a normal sorcerer who traded 2 sorcerer levels for a better AC and the situational ability to smite (I say situational, as by 'playing like a normal sorcerer' I mean sitting in the back row at a safe distance from the enemies). So assume that we expect from this build to spend time in the front line. Keep that in mind for now.

    Now, with that many sorcerer levels, I expect that twinning spells like haste, greater invisibility, polymorph, is on the to-do list. Since we get these spells asap (when compared to any other sorcadin) and since we'll have a lot of sp to work the benefits of twinned spell. Even if that is not the case, I expect our concentration to be used a lot and to a great effect, since we are going with a heavy focus on sorcerer. So keeping concentration going is extremelly important.

    So, being in the front line, wanting to maintain concentration, and not getting access to aura of protection, I think that warcaster (which is a must since S&B) is not enough. Assuming a +3 CON and advantage from warcaster, that's only a 91% chance to maintain concentration against the base 10 DC, every time you take damage. Even with an AC of 21 and with the shield spell in reserve, I do not think this is enough, especially when considering how losing concentration hurts both our resources and our action economy, but most importantly whatever tactics we have going on at that moment -and with that many levels in sorcerer, I dont know how else to emphasize on the importance of keeping our concentration). And AC is not the only defense enemies can target (for example, this guy's dex saves are his achilles heel). Remember, taking more hits starts dropping that initial 91% chance of keeping concentration at a steady rate (82.81% after 2 hits, 75.36% after 3 hits, 68.57% after 4 hits, etc, while always assuming that the DC is 10 and not higher). Thus, I think it is important to include both warcaster (already a given since S&B) AND resilient con (which also helps with the all important con saves, apart from concentration) in the final build. And that is why I think vhuman is a better choice than the halfelf for this split (2/18), since the vhuman can accomodate better the extra feat.

    Even if we dont plan on sticking in melee and rather have a more hit&run playstyle with this build, the 2 ways I can think of going about it, is either through using haste (which fits well with our many sp and thus with twinned in all likelihood), so that makes taking resilient and warcaster even more urgent (since losing concentration on haste hurts a lot, even more if you have twinned it), OR... by grabing the mobile feat (which can pair well with twinned BB and our many sp with which we use this tactics with a higher frequency), so again, we need an extra feat on top of warcaster (though this time it would be mobile instead of resilient), so again, vhuman works better due to needing an extra feat. I generally think the resilient con way to be the safer and more optimal option (when compared to mobile, also utilizing a mobile playstyle, especially when using things like twinned BB, to its maximum, takes a team effort and thus might not always -or even remotely often- work well with your group's tactics).

    So, instead of halfelf and starting stats of STR 16, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, I think we should go with Vhuman and taking resilient con as the starting feat, for starting stats of STR 16, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 16 (or sth similar respectively if you prefer a bit more balanced array).


    ps: While thus I tend o think that vhuman is slightly better (for the aforementioned reason) than halfelf for the 2/18 longsword sorcadin, I also think that halfelf is slightly better than vhuman for the 6/14 (and at least up to 9/11) longsword sorcadin (this is mostly because I am very afraid of negative wis mod and also because I dont value HAM that much, nor do I value resilient con much when also having both warcaster and aura of protection). That is unless the DM is allowing advantage from blade mastery on OA's with BB -technically not RAW-, in which case all the way vhuman for blade mastery at 1st level for those longsword sorcadins with aura of protection.
    Very minor details regarding optimization (or so I think), but I do like searching for such minor details.
    Last edited by Corran; 2017-03-30 at 03:20 PM.
    Hacks!

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Thanks for the advice Corran, I'll certainly take it under consideration.

    I'm not sure what Mobile does (I'll be AFB until this weekend), but I was considering heavy armor master with a vhuman as well.

    I don't know which (HAM, Resilient CON, and now Mobile) is best for this character.

    I think of him as still entering melee often.

    A draconic sorcerer gets 5 HP/level, a paladin gets 6. It's not a huge difference (although it is significant). It's another reason I consider HAM a good choice here.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    So what does everybody think of the new Oath of Redemption?

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Fach View Post
    So what does everybody think of the new Oath of Redemption?
    Using it for an NPC. He, and the world have gone through a lot of really grim times because of a betrayal he was a critical part of 200 years ago, a decision he made with the best information he had, but in which he was being used as a pawn. Damn those pally int scores. 30 years ago he decided on this path, which hasn't really been any easier for him. I was originally going to have him as treachery, but this is a slightly lighter way of approaching it from a narrative point of view, and I do want him to be a quite fervently "good" person.

    I'd be very careful with this on a PC because of the philosophy required and the decisions that will be restricted. I think it'd be great with the right group and the right campaign, but... Eyes open on that one.

    Flavourful as hell, potentially funny as hell, Mechanically self contradictory, but even so, the armor might be a shade too powerful.

    I think it needs to be more powerful than comparable powers, but even so maybe take it down by one? Maybe not.

    I'll know more in a couple of weeks when the orc hoard attacks
    Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2017-04-02 at 06:21 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Question Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Thoughts on this level progression for Sword & Board Sorcadin?

    Human Feat: Resilient (Constitution)
    Level 1: Paladin (1)
    Level 2: Paladin (1)
    Level 3: Paladin (1), Oath of the Crown
    Level 4: Paladin (1), War Caster
    Level 5: Sorcerer (2), Booming Blade, Shield
    Level 6: Sorcerer (2)
    Level 7: Sorcerer (3), Metamagic
    Level 8: Sorcerer (3), CHA 18
    Level 9: Sorcerer (4), Fireball
    Level 10: Sorcerer (4), Hypnotic Pattern
    Level 11: Paladin (4), Extra Attack
    Level 12: Paladin (5), Aura of Protection
    Level 13: Sorcerer (5)
    Level 14: Sorcerer (6) CHA 20
    Level 15: Sorcerer (6)
    Level 16: Sorcerer (7)
    Level 17: Sorcerer (7)
    Level 18: Sorcerer (8) STR 18
    Level 19: Sorcerer (8)
    Level 20: Sorcerer (9)

    I'm basing my build off of this guide, but it lists different progressions such as:

    Paladin 2 -> Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 6 -> Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 6 -> Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 14

    Paladin 6 -> Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 14

    The first is nice, but requires you to wait until level 6 to get War Caster. So you'd either have restricted spellcasting or need to go without a shield until you get it. The second works, but takes longer to gain its versatility. My progression gets the versatility sooner but gives up some of the nicer Paladin abilities (Extra Attack, Aura of Protection) until way later.

    Not sure which is better. Getting War Caster + Booming Blade sooner, or getting Aura of Protection sooner. I'd like to get the Sorcerer casting and metamagic sooner. I'm just not sure it's worth giving up Aura of Protection until level 12. Does anyone have experience with this concept? What do you guys think?

    My goal is to build a gish with a tank role. I'll be using Booming Blade a lot, so I'm not too concerned with getting the Extra Attack later. But Aura of Protection is pretty nice. hmm
    Last edited by Sillvva; 2017-04-02 at 08:35 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    The progression you have planned seems fine to me. The only thing I might have done differently would be to prioritize aura of protection over 3rd level spells (so paladin 4 -> paladin 4/ sorc 3 -> paladin 6/ sorc 3 -> paladin 6/ sorc 14 is probably what I would have done it).

    This allows you to best focus on tanking imo. First you tie up your AC all while getting some nice battlefield control options (on top of champion's challenge), then you tie up your saves. After that, you advance in sorcerer for more spell slots, sp, and to get the big guns.

    (@lvl7 - pal4/sorc3)
    You might be more versatile than you think though, and I'm pretty sure you will have some trouble figuring how to use your concentration even before you hit sorcerer 5. You've got bless (buffing), wrathful smite and command (debuffing), web and champion's challenge (battlefield control) as well as strong OA's (stickiness), and for tanking you'll have a good AC (base of 21 hopefully) upon which you can throw blur or mirror image (I prefer blur for mid levels, I retrain it later) and the shield spell (shield of faith for lower levels perhaps too). The only thing really missing is an AoE, but you can even cover that too with burning hands (your 4th sorcerer spell that has to be of 1st level, assuming blur/mirror image and web were picked).

    Really, it's not that you are not versatile, it's just that you can upgrade a lot and get even better stuff by advancing more in the sorcerer class (and equally importantly, get more fuel in term of spell slots and sorcery points). But before that, better tie up your saves (ie get aura of protection). And while at it, you get another spell level, extra attack and 2nd level paladin spells. At least that's how I think. That's why I suggested that progression at the start of the post.
    Last edited by Corran; 2017-04-03 at 12:58 AM.
    Hacks!

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    What was the general consensus on Hexblade? Is a single level hexblade dip at first level, letting you go cha primary and take warcaster with your human bonus feat, worthwhile, or does the existence of hexblade in games where its allowed just supplant the sorcadin altogether with hexblade/paladin or hexblade/sorcerer builds?

  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    Flavourful as hell, potentially funny as hell, Mechanically self contradictory, but even so, the armor might be a shade too powerful.
    Oath of Redemption AC Formula:
    AC = 16 + Dexterity modifier (cannot wear armor or shields)

    Draconic Resilience AC Formula:
    AC = 13 + Dexterity modified (cannot wear armor)

    Oath of Redemption gives 1 more AC than a Sorcadin with Dragonic Resilience that also uses a shield. (At higher levels that shield could potentially be magical and give a +1 to +3 to AC.)

    Here is the fun part:
    Sorcadin Joe has Draconic Resilience and took the Oath of Redemption. After a big battle, Joe and his group found a magic +1 shield. His AC doesn't change when he holds it. It seems to work just fine for the fighter...

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    What was the general consensus on Hexblade? Is a single level hexblade dip at first level, letting you go cha primary and take warcaster with your human bonus feat, worthwhile, or does the existence of hexblade in games where its allowed just supplant the sorcadin altogether with hexblade/paladin or hexblade/sorcerer builds?
    Well, imo it lets you become much closer to being SAD (single attribute dependent), you get a lot more mileage with what kind of weapons you want to use than Shillelagh wackiness, and you only need a one level dip to get the goods. Even going 2 pal 1 lock, you can still capstone with level 9 magics and the highest echelons of sorcerer goodies, soooo... yeah, hexblade rocks. Just don't mistake hexblade 1 with hexpactblade 3... The multiclassing for paladin even cover hex and sorc, so take a sip off the top of everything and don't look back! Compare things with going bard 3 or tomelock 3 for the cha primary, or the stat diversity needed to gish otherwise, and I'd say hexblade is essential.

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I've said this a few times but I think it needs said: if you are going to be a front line combatant with neither high strength nor high dex, you will have more issues with grapples and shoves.

    I'm not saying don't do it, just: be aware you are choosing a significant advantage (reduced attribute requirements) at the cost of a significant weakness

    I've previously suggested that, as a minimum, both feather fall and misty step would be mandatory... I think that still stands.
    Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2017-04-04 at 05:14 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    This has me fairly curious. I've been struggling to understand multiclassing when it involves a warlock.

    I want to make sure I understand this right. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    So I still have the same concept, a Magic Knight, has a bit of everything.

    1. Paladin 6 / Hexblade 1 / Sorc 13 - I'll be a 16th level caster. 3 caster levels from Paladin, 13 from Sorc. Meaning I'll have 8th level slots. I'll have 1 extra first level slot that recharges on a short rest yes?(This is the one I'm assuming is how it'll work.) (Also if the new Favored Soul gets reworked to have wings I may change this up.)

    2. Or will just one of my first level slots from being a 16th level caster refresh on short rest?

    3. Or does lock count toward my caster level in obtaining spells slots, as in I'd count as a 17th level caster? Still only having one of my first level slots refresh on short rest.

    These are the ways I've thought are possible in reading multiclassing rules over and over. 1 being the one I'm 90% sure is how it works, but I keep having the other two tug at me, so I want to be completely sure.

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Daion515 View Post
    This has me fairly curious. I've been struggling to understand multiclassing when it involves a warlock.

    I want to make sure I understand this right. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    So I still have the same concept, a Magic Knight, has a bit of everything.

    1. Paladin 6 / Hexblade 1 / Sorc 13 - I'll be a 16th level caster. 3 caster levels from Paladin, 13 from Sorc. Meaning I'll have 8th level slots. I'll have 1 extra first level slot that recharges on a short rest yes?(This is the one I'm assuming is how it'll work.) (Also if the new Favored Soul gets reworked to have wings I may change this up.)

    2. Or will just one of my first level slots from being a 16th level caster refresh on short rest?

    3. Or does lock count toward my caster level in obtaining spells slots, as in I'd count as a 17th level caster? Still only having one of my first level slots refresh on short rest.

    These are the ways I've thought are possible in reading multiclassing rules over and over. 1 being the one I'm 90% sure is how it works, but I keep having the other two tug at me, so I want to be completely sure.

    1. Sadly, not 100% how that works. You'll have the right spell slots, but your known spells will be quite stretched and you won't have 8th level magic, just spell slots.

    2. Warlock magic is independent, so you get their usual spell free. You can't cast other spells with it, though.

    3. Your caster level would be 20th... if it mattered. The game uses proficiency instead, but if you're referring to the table for spell slots, you'd cap at level 16.

  13. - Top - End - #373
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Why would you be unable to cast other (first level) spells with the short rest Warlock slot?

  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Daion515 View Post
    This has me fairly curious. I've been struggling to understand multiclassing when it involves a warlock.

    I want to make sure I understand this right. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    So I still have the same concept, a Magic Knight, has a bit of everything.

    1. Paladin 6 / Hexblade 1 / Sorc 13 .......
    ............
    You have the spell slots of a 16-level full caster (that means that you do have 8th level spell slots; and you also have one extra 1st level spell slot that recharges on short rests, in addition to the spell slots you have due to being a 16th level full caster, from being a warlock).

    So, you have these spell slots:
    5(1st) 3(2nd) 3(3rd) 3(4th) 2(5th) 1(6th) 1(7th) 1(8th)

    You can recharge one expended 1st level spell slot after a short rest (due to coming from being a warlock). Everything else recharges after a long rest.

    You can use any spell you know with any one of these spell slots (provided the slot is of equal or higher level than the spell).

    You know and prepare spells seperately for each of your classes.

    In this case, that means that you know 6 sorcerer cantrips and 13 sorcerer spells which they can be up to 7th-level sorcerer spells (due to being a 13th level sorcerer - learn these spells the way any singleclass sorc of 13 levels would).

    You can prepare 3+cha mod paladin spells of 1st and 2nd level (due to being paladin 6), plus your oath spells ofc.

    And you also know two 1st level warlock spell and 2 warlock cantrips (due to being warlock 1).
    Hacks!

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkitten View Post
    2. Warlock magic is independent, so you get their usual spell free. You can't cast other spells with it, though.
    This isn't correct. Pact Magic level doesn't stack with Spellcasting level for total slots available, but you can use the slots from each to cast spells from the other.

    Pact Magic.

    If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Yarp, I totally had a brain fart and went 3.5 for a second. I forgot that divine and arcane spell casting aren't separate things anymore, my bad ^^'

  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sillvva View Post
    Thoughts on this level progression for Sword & Board Sorcadin?

    Human Feat: Resilient (Constitution)
    Level 1: Paladin (1)
    Level 2: Paladin (1)
    Level 3: Paladin (1), Oath of the Crown
    Level 4: Paladin (1), War Caster
    Level 5: Sorcerer (2), Booming Blade, Shield
    Level 6: Sorcerer (2)
    Level 7: Sorcerer (3), Metamagic
    Level 8: Sorcerer (3), CHA 18
    Level 9: Sorcerer (4), Fireball
    Level 10: Sorcerer (4), Hypnotic Pattern
    Level 11: Paladin (4), Extra Attack
    Level 12: Paladin (5), Aura of Protection
    Level 13: Sorcerer (5)
    Level 14: Sorcerer (6) CHA 20
    Level 15: Sorcerer (6)
    Level 16: Sorcerer (7)
    Level 17: Sorcerer (7)
    Level 18: Sorcerer (8) STR 18
    Level 19: Sorcerer (8)
    Level 20: Sorcerer (9)

    I'm basing my build off of this guide, but it lists different progressions such as:

    Paladin 2 -> Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 6 -> Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 6 -> Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 14

    Paladin 6 -> Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 14

    The first is nice, but requires you to wait until level 6 to get War Caster. So you'd either have restricted spellcasting or need to go without a shield until you get it. The second works, but takes longer to gain its versatility. My progression gets the versatility sooner but gives up some of the nicer Paladin abilities (Extra Attack, Aura of Protection) until way later.

    Not sure which is better. Getting War Caster + Booming Blade sooner, or getting Aura of Protection sooner. I'd like to get the Sorcerer casting and metamagic sooner. I'm just not sure it's worth giving up Aura of Protection until level 12. Does anyone have experience with this concept? What do you guys think?

    My goal is to build a gish with a tank role. I'll be using Booming Blade a lot, so I'm not too concerned with getting the Extra Attack later. But Aura of Protection is pretty nice. hmm
    I would just go paladin 6 first. You can't stop at 4 when level 5 is so good. The same logic applies when going up to level 6.

    If you're really not concerned with extra attack, I'd say go Paladin 2 -> sorcerer until you feel you have enough firepower before going up to paladin 6.

    Or do you really like your paladin 3 ability that much?

    If you don't care about extra attack, the spell casting of the sorcerer outweighs what you'd get from the paladin class after level 2 (except for the level 6 ability, which is amazing).
    Last edited by Klorox; 2017-04-08 at 12:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I'm in a small D&D group: DM, Evocation Wizard, Vengeance Paladin and my Life Cleric. All at Level 7, soon to be 8.

    Recently my DM took me aside noting, that he doesn't want to push me into a healing only role, but it is hard for him building encounters not considering my massive healing powers. One of his recommendations was to allow me to build a new character at Level 8. He also noted that he would like a melee build the most. I myself don't like pure melee builds, so there I was, remembering this thread and that I always wanted to try a Sorcadin at some point.

    So I'm sitting here trying to build a Sorcadin, that works well on it's own and with the group.

    I wanted it to be a dragonborn of a tribe where they believe the strongest and most righteous of their kin are to be granted full dragonhood by Bahamut. So whats mor thematically than getting your dragonwings at Level 20, therefore Paladin(Crown?) 6/Sorcerer(Draconic) 14 will be the goal.

    We build all our characters from the standard 15/14/13/12/10/8 array. Leaving me with the following considerations for initial stats:
    STR 15 / DEX 12 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 10 / CHA 16 taking Heavy Armor Master at some point
    STR 16 / DEX 12 / CON 13 / INT 8 / WIS 10 / CHA 16 taking Resilient (Con) at some point

    Considering that we already have a paladin at the table I would like to go 2/6 -> 6/6 -> 6/14. But that leaves me with only one ASI/Feat until level 10 making me unable to cast spells upclose (no Warcaster) or leaving me with either only +2 Stength or only +1 Constitution (no Heavy Armor Master/Resilient(Con)) until Level 10

    The only way to get Heavy Armor Master/Resilient(CON) and War Caster already at Level 8 is to go 4/4 which seems semioptimal to me.

    All in all I really want to play that character, but don't know how to start the build.
    Hope some of you may be able to push me into the "right" directions.
    Last edited by TrueAzrael; 2017-05-07 at 12:19 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueAzrael View Post
    snip
    Since you already have a paladin at the party, I would advise NOT going for aura of protection (since multiple auras of protection do not stack). And if you are not going for aura of protection you can drop the 5th paladin level (extra attack, 2nd level paladin spells) without a lot of remorse, especially since you are a draconic sorcerer who adds his charisma modifier to GFB, and you can also drop the 4th paladin level too (ASI), in favour of better spell and sorcery point progression (and from and end build perspective, for 9th level spells). So my suggestion is to be paladin 2 /sorcerer (draconic) 6 at 8th character level, and plan for either a 2/18 or a 3/17 end build.
    (I think dreadful aspect is your best choice for CD, but oathbreaker might not fit your plans well rp-wise. I would probably go 2/18 in that case.)

    Personally, I prefer resilient con to HAM, so given that you are a dragonborn and using the starting array, I would go with STR 14+2=16, DEX 10 (or 12), CON 13, INT 8, WIS 12 (or 10), CHA 15+1=16.
    (since you are using the standard array)

    I would probably prioritize warcaster to resilient con (since advantage on concentration checks, +2 to AC from packing a shield, and BB on opportunity attacks is better imo than +3 on con saves, +8 hp, and +1.5 dpr weighted down by hit chance), so I would start with warcaster (S&B) and aim for resilient at 10th character level (pal2/sorc8). If you want resilient con first (and aim for warcaster on pal2/sprc8), you can always go with a greatsword (or a maul) before you can eventually pick up warcaster (when you'll switch to S&B).

    Your hardest choice imo is what you'll pick for your second metamagic. Lots of good points for both careful and twinned.
    Last edited by Corran; 2017-05-16 at 12:02 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #380
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Has anybody figured out how to optimize this with warcaster on a vhuman at level 1?

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by krunchyfrogg View Post
    Has anybody figured out how to optimize this with warcaster on a vhuman at level 1?
    No. Because at level 1 you are either a sorcerer or a paladin, but not both.
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
    and I continue to not respond,
    it's probably because I have
    you on my Ignore list.
    Congratulations.

  22. - Top - End - #382
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    No. Because at level 1 you are either a sorcerer or a paladin, but not both.
    right.

    The only way to do it is to go sorcerer 1 first. But that means you won't get heavy armor, unless you burn a feat on it.

    The other option is to go dex-based, but your stats stink then (13/14/14/8/9/16 or 13/15/14/8/9/15 and bump to 16 dex/cha at level 4 the earliest).
    Last edited by krunchyfrogg; 2017-05-16 at 09:31 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #383
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by krunchyfrogg View Post
    right.

    The only way to do it is to go sorcerer 1 first. But that means you won't get heavy armor, unless you burn a feat on it.

    The other option is to go dex-based, but your stats stink then (13/14/14/8/9/16 or 13/15/14/8/9/15 and bump to 16 dex/cha at level 4 the earliest).
    Half-elf: 13, 16, 14, 8, 9, 16
    10 base +2 studded +3 Dex +1 Defense style = 16
    +2 shield = 18
    +2 shield of faith = 18
    both = 20
    shield spell = 21/23/25
    Prot from evil or Blur instead of SoF, for 16/18 with disadvantage, 21/23 with shield if it still happens to hit.
    Later your Dex could go up adding another +1 or +2
    Grab Warcaster @ level 6

    Who needs heavy armor?
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-05-16 at 09:48 AM.
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
    and I continue to not respond,
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    you on my Ignore list.
    Congratulations.

  24. - Top - End - #384
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Half-elf: 13, 16, 14, 8, 9, 16
    10 base +2 studded +3 Dex +1 Defense style = 16
    +2 shield = 18
    +2 shield of faith = 18
    both = 20
    shield spell = 21/23/25
    Prot from evil or Blur instead of SoF, for 16/18 with disadvantage, 21/23 with shield if it still happens to hit.
    Later your Dex could go up adding another +1 or +2
    Grab Warcaster @ level 6

    Who needs heavy armor?
    LMK when the half elf gets a feat at first level.

    I know the half elf gets better stats. My goal is warcaster at level 1.
    Last edited by krunchyfrogg; 2017-05-16 at 10:20 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #385
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by krunchyfrogg View Post
    LMK when the half elf gets a feat at first level.

    I know the half elf gets better stats. My goal is warcaster at level 1.
    Ask your DM if you can use a variant, like the ones in the SCAG.
    Only this variant is homebrewed to represent your human parentage instead of your elven blood.
    There's a feat which grants 3 skills. So ask him if you can give up Skill Versatility and either a language or Fey Ancestry to make up the virtual "third skill" and it becomes an even trade, which is perfectly reasonable.
    You're trading the equivalent of a feat's worth of racial features, so asking for a starting feat in this variant isn't unreasonable.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-05-16 at 10:30 AM.
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
    and I continue to not respond,
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    you on my Ignore list.
    Congratulations.

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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by krunchyfrogg View Post
    LMK when the half elf gets a feat at first level.

    I know the half elf gets better stats. My goal is warcaster at level 1.
    Is it for RAW optimization for AL type games? Because outside of starting as a VHuman Sorc, it isn't possible with this McCombo.

    For house games, I have seen a lot of DMs in my area lately starting allow a free Feat at 1st level for everyone, and banning VHuman. Or, fudging the MC rules a bit and allowing Paladins to MC with a 13 Dex instead of Str, but that still doesn't allow you to start with War Caster as Paladin.

    Side Tangent: Do racial spells like Firbolg and Drow qualify you for War Caster? Or do you specifically need the 'Spellcasting' or 'Pact Magic' class feature(s)?
    I Am A: Neutral Good Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian (2nd/1st Level)

    Ability Scores:
    Strength-16
    Dexterity-16
    Constitution-17
    Intelligence-17
    Wisdom-16
    Charisma-13

  27. - Top - End - #387
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongobear View Post
    Side Tangent: Do racial spells like Firbolg and Drow qualify you for War Caster?
    They do indeed.
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
    and I continue to not respond,
    it's probably because I have
    you on my Ignore list.
    Congratulations.

  28. - Top - End - #388
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    Corran's Avatar

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by krunchyfrogg View Post
    right.

    The only way to do it is to go sorcerer 1 first. But that means you won't get heavy armor, unless you burn a feat on it.

    The other option is to go dex-based, but your stats stink then (13/14/14/8/9/16 or 13/15/14/8/9/15 and bump to 16 dex/cha at level 4 the earliest).
    Well, this is not RAW, but you could try to convince your DM that the alternative use of lay on hands (the remove disease/poison effect, which you have available since level 1 paly) counts as spellcasting (it does not per RAW), for the purposes of getting warcaster as a 1st level vhuman paladin.

    If sticking with RAW, then as other people already mentioned, you pretty much have to start as a sorcerer. In which case you have do go dex based (cant see a benefit in doing all that just to end up somehow str-based).

    Edit: So.......
    Vhuman
    starting feat: warcaster (starting as a sorcerer)
    STR 13
    DEX 15+1=16
    CON 12
    INT 8
    WIS 8
    CHA 15+1=16
    (Really not sure how to further optimize a character with this array; probably stick with a small paladin dip and play more like a caster/skirmisher than anything else, but honestly I am not sure.)

    or

    Vhuman
    starting feat: warcaster (starting as sorcerer)
    STR 15+1=16
    DEX 8
    CON 15
    INT 8
    WIS 8
    CHA 15+1=16
    (picking up heavily armored with your next ASI for 17/16/15 in STR/CHA/CON, and using your next ASI to bring your stats to 18/16/16; or you could lower your CON by 2 and use these extra 4 points to raise DEX and/or WIS; though I dont think investin a feat in heavily armored is worth it, and I would probably prefer the first approach -the dex based one-, if I had to have warcater at lvl 1 and stick to RAW).
    Last edited by Corran; 2017-05-16 at 12:23 PM.
    Hacks!

  29. - Top - End - #389
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Well, this is not RAW, but you could try to convince your DM that the alternative use of lay on hands (the remove disease/poison effect, which you have available since level 1 paly) counts as spellcasting (it does not per RAW), for the purposes of getting warcaster as a 1st level vhuman paladin.

    If sticking with RAW, then as other people already mentioned, you pretty much have to start as a sorcerer. In which case you have do go dex based (cant see a benefit in doing all that just to end up somehow str-based).

    Edit: So.......
    Vhuman
    starting feat: warcaster (starting as a sorcerer)
    STR 13
    DEX 15+1=16
    CON 12
    INT 8
    WIS 8
    CHA 15+1=16
    (Really not sure how to further optimize a character with this array; probably stick with a small paladin dip and play more like a caster/skirmisher than anything else, but honestly I am not sure.)

    or

    Vhuman
    starting feat: warcaster (starting as sorcerer)
    STR 15+1=16
    DEX 8
    CON 15
    INT 8
    WIS 8
    CHA 15+1=16
    (picking up heavily armored with your next ASI for 17/16/15 in STR/CHA/CON, and using your next ASI to bring your stats to 18/16/16; or you could lower your CON by 2 and use these extra 4 points to raise DEX and/or WIS; though I dont think investin a feat in heavily armored is worth it, and I would probably prefer the first approach -the dex based one-, if I had to have warcater at lvl 1 and stick to RAW).
    I wish. My game is kind of strange: they are strictly RAW in a home brew world. It's basically AL (without certs).

  30. - Top - End - #390
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    What build "comes online" fastest?

    Can you give me an order of the first few?

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