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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    Maybe "Sword-Born" or "Spell-Sworn" would work better?
    Kinda interested into home-brewing this so that it "comes online" faster as a single class. Hmm...
    "Spell Sword" as a play on "Sell-sword" has a ring to it...
    Last edited by Mikey P; 2016-10-05 at 11:46 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey P View Post
    "Spell Sword" as a play on "Sell-sword" has a ring to it...
    That might have some bad blood because of the awful 3.5 prestige class with the same name...

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Hm. Not sure if I agree with Warlock dip as red option for Greatsworders. That's another two Shields or Smites per short rest, access to Hex for when your daily resources are spent, and access to Armor of Agathys, which is one of the best spells your frontline squishy could ask for. More HP? Sure! Long duration for pre-buffing? No problem! Solid damage without using an action or reaction in combat? Sold. At level 13, your level 5 Fireball is going to be dealing an average of 42 damage or so before Reflex saves, which is fairly decent. Your regular attacks, using the same action, will also be doing around 40 damage as well if both hit. Your Armor of Agathys is going to be dealing at least 50 damage against anything short of a Storm Giant, closer to 100 against Vampires and lowered-leveled foes, and effectively heals you for nearly your full Lay on Hands damage, and doesn't take an action for any of it. Sure, it's less good against giants, dragons, and AoE attacks, but it's a very nice ace in the hole when you know what's coming.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Hm. Not sure if I agree with Warlock dip as red option for Greatsworders. That's another two Shields or Smites per short rest, access to Hex for when your daily resources are spent, and access to Armor of Agathys, which is one of the best spells your frontline squishy could ask for. More HP? Sure! Long duration for pre-buffing? No problem! Solid damage without using an action or reaction in combat? Sold. At level 13, your level 5 Fireball is going to be dealing an average of 42 damage or so before Reflex saves, which is fairly decent. Your regular attacks, using the same action, will also be doing around 40 damage as well if both hit. Your Armor of Agathys is going to be dealing at least 50 damage against anything short of a Storm Giant, closer to 100 against Vampires and lowered-leveled foes, and effectively heals you for nearly your full Lay on Hands damage, and doesn't take an action for any of it. Sure, it's less good against giants, dragons, and AoE attacks, but it's a very nice ace in the hole when you know what's coming.
    I don't think you can cast shield as a warlock spell, can you?
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Also at 13, a hexed-up Agonizing Eldritch Blast is throwing 3D10+3*Cha+3D6 for 42 damage.
    I actually think that Warlock is on-par enough with Sorcerer that it should actually be considered. If not through the full guide, then at least in a single section on its own. The only reason you'd want Sorc is for the Metamagic, which the guide points out, pure Pallocks dont get and feel more like an EK as a result. But Pally6|Sorc3|Lock11 wouldn't be bad.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I don't think you can cast shield as a warlock spell, can you?
    Slots are slots.
    If you know a spell and have a slot, you can cast that spell from that slot.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2016-10-06 at 06:18 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Great handbook!

    As to the name, "birthblade" is not going to catch on. Just live with Sorcadin or Paladorc, at least people know what they are.

    If I were to make a suggestion, I would add some discussion about what to do during the early levels, both in what order to take what, as well as what to do before certain things come online (as an example, spells to memorize and casting vs. smiting decisions to make until you can pick up war caster). One of the biggest challenges of multiclassing is surviving levels 1-4 while you are slowly getting both classes up and running.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Great guide!

    A quick quibble: Oath of the Crown's Turn the Tide requires the targets to be able to hear you -- thus doesn't work on unconscious allies.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Slots are slots.
    If you know a spell and have a slot, you can cast that spell from that slot.
    I thought warlocks kept their slots separate from other casters, or is that just for multiclass calculations?
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Lock Slots are separate because you get them back after a short rest. You can use them to cast any spell you know or have prepared.

    Edit: Not any spell. Just spells of a level equal to or lower than the Level of the Warlock slot in question.
    Last edited by lunaticfringe; 2016-10-06 at 10:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    A possible build idea. Is it viable?
    Here is my current Paladin setup. I'm currently considering going Sorcerer (Longsword track) up to level 20, but could use advise/critique.

    Human (Variant)
    Rogue 1/Paladin (Crown) 4
    Feats: Mage Slayer, Shield Master
    Fighting Style: Sword and Board/Protection
    Expertise: Athletics and persuasion
    Rolled high for stats (+4 STR, +3 CHA, +3CON, +2DEX, etc.)

    A grappling master and a mage-destroyer already, he can pretty well handle himself in any 1-on-1 fight. With shield master, mage slayer, and Dex save proficiency, he can dodge many attack spells and save well against other so long as he is standing next to the enemy.

    The question is, is this build set up to start a BirthBlade build? It's not too late to switch out my Shield Master for War Caster, but I'd much rather wait to pick it up at level 9 and keep the great things Shield Master brought me.

    Pros I can see:
    - Fantastic saves against mages and striking back against them. Sorcerer spells can even ensure that I will be standing next to the enemy to fully utilize Mage Slayer.
    - Grappling master can only help in such a build. More quick death options is more quick death options.
    - Still a beast once the expendable resources run out.
    - Crown Paladin, as always, makes sure I fight who I want, when I want.

    Flaws I can already see:
    - No Heavy Armor
    - Might spend a few sorcerer levels with no Mage Slayer feat
    - Loose a sorcerer level to Rogue
    Last edited by Falcon X; 2016-10-06 at 11:54 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I thought warlocks kept their slots separate from other casters, or is that just for multiclass calculations?
    Yes, and now I'll keep typing because stupid 10 character minimum
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Thanks for all the feedback~~!

    I will attend to the comments, dividing them into sections:

    Spoiler: Point-buying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Great job with this guide! Lots of information here!

    You suggest starting stats of 16/8/16/8/8/16. This looks to be a variant human, but do you recommend the heavy armor mastery feat or resilient constitution (or something else)?

    I can see the benefits of both.

    Your next feat needs to be warcaster, IMHO, and boosting CHA above STR or DEX is the optimal choice. Do you agree?
    Thanks~. I think that if youíre going Paladin 6 later, Resilient can get redundant, but if youíre going Paladin 2, you should get it on top of War Caster.

    For Longsword builds I think CHA > STR, while for Greatsword builds itís STR > CHA. I donít know much for DEX, but I think they might want to prioritize it over CHA because it also increases your low AC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongobear View Post
    One question about Ability Scores: If given the choice of Standard Point Buy from the PHB or using the Standard Array (15/14/13/12/10/8) which would you take? I am sort of against having so many stats below 10 doing the triple 15 point buy methods you mention, at least up until Aura of Protection kicks in, which could take anywhere from 6-12 levels depending on how you level up.

    If you were starting a "Birthblade" at 1st level tommorow, would you do your Point Buy array of 15 8 15 8 8 15 (+Racial/Feat mods) or would you use the Standard Array?
    I donít think the Standard Array has an advantage over Standard Point Buy, since the Standard Array becomes 27 points in Point-Buy... Standard Array is basically one example of what you can create using Point-Buy. But you want to maximize STR, CON, and CHA.
    I would not mind getting an 8 in DEX and INT, DEX because the saves only increase damage (you still take half either way), and INT because almost no saves relate to it. However, getting WIS 10 might seem a bit fearful for many people, due to WIS saves being so devastating. In which case, I recommend going Half-Elf. That way you can buy 15-8-15-8-10-14, which becomes 16-8-16-8-10-16, meaning you can get 16 in all 3 important ability scores without making your WIS 10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathadder99 View Post
    I'm just wondering why you rate PAM so low. I find it's generally the best choice for single class paladins, as you get the extra chance to smite. Is it merely because with Advantage, GWM maths out better and that you're ASI/Feat starved anyway?

    Otherwise it's a good and well thought out read.
    Well, perhaps Black was too low. I may raise it to Blue, but I think you need to be an Oathbreaker to maximize power (this is simular to how Greatsword builds rely on Shadow Sorcerer to be good). Aura of Hate works wonders with PAM. And in that build, Paladin 11 probably becomes a pretty solid option, with Improved Divine Smite. This also connects to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    I'm going to have to read this again to digest it, but thanks for taking the time to write this. I'd love to see at least a mention of Paladin 12/sorcerer 8. Sure it's different but its also absurdly strong
    This does seem interesting as a Paladin-centered build, so I might delve into it when I have time. Thanks for the input!
    Quote Originally Posted by deathadder99 View Post
    My suspicion is that the -5/+10 works out as better damage with all things considered, but I'd like to hear Gastronomie's rationale for the black rating. Perhaps it's also to do with feat starvation. If you rolled godly stats, I can see a build with PAM, GWM, War Caster and Spell Sniper be utterly broken, but you'd never get that in a normal game as you'd need to have at least one or two 18s at character creation.
    Well, a bit of explaining the main reason I made it Black: itís because PAM work best with Oathbreakers, but Oathbreakers get a lot of solid good abilities till the highest levels (Supernatural Resistance, which makes you an over-the-top amazing tank, and the uber-powerful Dread Lord - thereís also a boost in the Aura effects at level 17), meaning going Pure Oathbreaker is an actually pretty damn good option for those who wish to go PAM.

    Of course, Paladin/Sorc PAM builds will be fun to use as well, but still. Well, Iím starting to think Black was a bit too harsh, but I still think PAM builds might find Pure Oathbreaker more alluring...

    That godly stat thing does look godly. When I have time I might make a sample build for when you rolled godly stats... Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    Haven't read through everything, but Blade Mastery lets you add +1 as a reaction, not bonus action.
    *Facepalm* God, how did I mistake that? Real thanks, and changed. (Most groups I play with IRL doesnít speak English, so when I mistranslate or mistake something, no one can point it out...)

    Quote Originally Posted by WickerNipple View Post
    Great guide!

    A quick quibble: Oath of the Crown's Turn the Tide requires the targets to be able to hear you -- thus doesn't work on unconscious allies.
    What? I donít think thatís... *Checks* ...Youíre right. I actually never realized that, Iíve used it to help my friends get awake multiple times and the DM never said anything. I learned something new. Thanks for helping both me and this guide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fflewddur Fflam View Post
    No love for a Paladin 6/Champion 4/Sorcerer 10? I would figure the improved critical on the Champion would help for those nova smite bursts.
    Seems interesting. Well, right now my builds have Quickened Hold Monster as means for when you want to crit like mad, but rolling crits with your own hands is probably more fun to play. I may delve into this further on - though I donít think itís the most optimized option ever, it does certainly look like a fun build to play. I love fun builds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
    Thoughts on subtle spell for utility?
    I think it highly depends on the campaign, making it near impossible to rate. If youíre in Hack-and-Slash it will mean next to nothing, but in a city politics campaign it will be beyond amazing. The main problem is how WotC designed the Sorcerer to have far too little Metamagic options to choose from... I mean, honestly, they should have given 3 at level 3, 4 at level 10, 5 at level 14, and all options at level 20, or something like that.

    Quickened is near-mandatory, while Careful, Twinned, and Heightened are amazing in combat as well (they also have out-of-combat usage when combined with Suggestion and stuff).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey P View Post
    I'm afraid you'll have to put me in the "Sorcadin" camp. I am sorry, but "Birthblade" really just doesn't work for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finieous View Post
    Agreed on all counts. As for the name: I'm not sure why it needs one, but "birthblade" sounds like some horrifying implement of medieval midwifery.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    Yeah, I had the same response to the name - kinda skeeved me. I do love Paladork though, since playing the class requires a lot more depth than most others (meaning you spend more time looking at books, optimizing math, reading this guide - NERRRRD) and because the Paladin is giving up his awesome "being a knight and rescuing damsels" to "go practice his witchcraft and wizardry - NERRRRD!!!"

    Maybe "Sword-Born" or "Spell-Sworn" would work better?
    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    As to the name, "birthblade" is not going to catch on. Just live with Sorcadin or Paladorc, at least people know what they are.
    NO THE NAME BIRTHBLADE IS REALLY COOL YOU GUYS ARE ALL STUPID FOR NOT LIKING IT Well, Birthblade is just a random name I thought up on the spot and kept on using. I have nothing really attached to it, so if you guys think thereís a better alternative I will gladly change it.

    I tried to keep away from Paladorc and Sorcadin for reasons already mentioned in the guide, but ďnot going to catch onĒ does seem like a possible issue. Sadly, I think this issue will not be changed, even if I change the name to Spell-Sworn, or Sword-Born, or Spell-Blade (though all of them are cool suggestions as well). Perhaps I may simply go with Sorcadin?

    What do you guys think? Should I replace everything with Sorcadin, or no? If multiple people say I should simply change everything to Sorcadin, I will use Word to edit them all at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Hm. Not sure if I agree with Warlock dip as red option for Greatsworders. That's another two Shields or Smites per short rest, access to Hex for when your daily resources are spent, and access to Armor of Agathys, which is one of the best spells your frontline squishy could ask for. More HP? Sure! Long duration for pre-buffing? No problem! Solid damage without using an action or reaction in combat? Sold. At level 13, your level 5 Fireball is going to be dealing an average of 42 damage or so before Reflex saves, which is fairly decent. Your regular attacks, using the same action, will also be doing around 40 damage as well if both hit. Your Armor of Agathys is going to be dealing at least 50 damage against anything short of a Storm Giant, closer to 100 against Vampires and lowered-leveled foes, and effectively heals you for nearly your full Lay on Hands damage, and doesn't take an action for any of it. Sure, it's less good against giants, dragons, and AoE attacks, but it's a very nice ace in the hole when you know what's coming.
    Yeah, youíre true, I should raise it. Armor of Agathys is without doubt one of the best scaling spells! Though Iím not sure if itís okay to compare Fireballís damage to that of Armor of Agathys (the whole point of Fireball is that you can damage multiple enemies at once with just one casting; youíre never gonna use it on a single target), it is true that Agathys can be a very good option for Paladin/Sorcs too. It is a bit anti-synergetic with Inspiring Leader and stuff though, so I should note that if youíre going to take either, you prolly shouldnít take the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    Also at 13, a hexed-up Agonizing Eldritch Blast is throwing 3D10+3*Cha+3D6 for 42 damage.
    I actually think that Warlock is on-par enough with Sorcerer that it should actually be considered. If not through the full guide, then at least in a single section on its own. The only reason you'd want Sorc is for the Metamagic, which the guide points out, pure Pallocks dont get and feel more like an EK as a result. But Pally6|Sorc3|Lock11 wouldn't be bad.
    Though I doubt you will use concentration for Hex when there are so many other concentration options, youíre true that Eldritch Blast is a good ranged attack option. I havenít played Pal/Sorc/Lock with emphasis on Lock before, so I donít know how well it will go, but it does seem interesting. The only thing Iím afraid of is running out of Sorcery Points too easily... From that viewpoint, maybe you should go Lock 11 before Sorc 3? I dunno.
    Anyhow, thanks for the suggestions. Getting ideas from lots of people really helps!

    Spoiler: Early level progression
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    If I were to make a suggestion, I would add some discussion about what to do during the early levels, both in what order to take what, as well as what to do before certain things come online (as an example, spells to memorize and casting vs. smiting decisions to make until you can pick up war caster). One of the biggest challenges of multiclassing is surviving levels 1-4 while you are slowly getting both classes up and running.
    This is true, but at the same time, sadly, I am not an expert on this matter Well, most games I used Paladin/Sorcs in actually started at level 5 or higher, so the truth is that I do not know much about how to progress them at really early levels.

    I will try thinking, but if I think on my own it will be theory-crafting, and probably not very accurate either. If anyone has experience, please lend me a hand! I will try in the meantime, but I have many things to do apart from this (including DM-ing two campaigns and experimenting with other Birthblade builds) so it may become a bit later.

    The most important problem for low levels is the lack of War Caster IMO. If your DM is generous with minuscule rules, he might let you use a shield as the arcane focus of both Paladin and Sorcerer spells, or perhaps let you engrave a tattoo on your body that acts as an arcane focus, but if heís really strict to RAW he may say you cannot cast spells while going S&B before you get War Caster. In which case, it becomes a possible option to go Greatsword just until you get War Caster, even if you plan on going S&B eventually.

    Spoiler: Progression advice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon X View Post
    Here is my current Paladin setup. I'm currently considering going Sorcerer (Longsword track) up to level 20, but could use advise/critique.

    Human (Variant)
    Rogue 1/Paladin (Crown) 4
    Feats: Mage Slayer, Shield Master
    Fighting Style: Sword and Board/Protection
    Expertise: Athletics and persuasion
    Rolled high for stats (+4 STR, +3 CHA, +3CON, +2DEX, etc.)

    A grappling master and a mage-destroyer already, he can pretty well handle himself in any 1-on-1 fight. With shield master, mage slayer, and Dex save proficiency, he can dodge many attack spells and save well against other so long as he is standing next to the enemy.

    The question is, is this build set up to start a BirthBlade build? It's not too late to switch out my Shield Master for War Caster, but I'd much rather wait to pick it up at level 9 and keep the great things Shield Master brought me.
    That's quite nice stats you've got there! I think you should get War Caster though, since otherwise, if you're going S&B, you will suffer from not being able to cast the Shield spell (unless your DM is a generous person) till you hit Sorcerer 4, which is quite some time. I don't think you will like that. Of course, if your DM is generous with spell components (I'm one of those people who simply don't care), you not need take War Caster until Sorcerer 4 (though it still will be strong).

    War Caster also helps with spells like Bless, so I think it's nice to have for your Paladin era as well.

    I think you should first get to Paladin 6, for Aura of Protection, and then go to Sorcerer. AoP is really good.


    The changes listed in here - such as changing the rating of Warlock and PAM - cannot be done right now due to it being 1:20 AM midnight Japan time. I will do these either tomorrow (which I suspect I may be busy) or the day after.

    Again, thanks for all the feedback! I appreciate all the comments - they really do help me make this better, and also help me level up as a player myself.
    Last edited by Gastronomie; 2016-10-06 at 11:21 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I don't think you can cast shield as a warlock spell, can you?
    Other people have responded to the slot differentiation issue, but Klorox might have instead meant to point out that Shield is on neither the Paladin's not Warlock's spell list, meaning a Paladin/Warlock still needs to dip Sorcerer to get it, which is starting to stretch the levels pretty thin.

    Quote Originally Posted by WickerNipple View Post
    A quick quibble: Oath of the Crown's Turn the Tide requires the targets to be able to hear you -- thus doesn't work on unconscious allies.
    Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't notice it on my first read. That does limit it's awesome, though still better than most Paladin Channel Divinities (looking at you, Oath of Ancients).

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    I tried to keep away from Paladorc and Sorcadin for reasons already mentioned in the guide, but ďnot going to catch onĒ does seem like a possible issue. Sadly, I think this issue will not be changed, even if I change the name to Spell-Sworn, or Sword-Born, or Spell-Blade (though all of them are cool suggestions as well). Perhaps I may simply go with Sorcadin?
    For historical purposes, Sorcadin would probably be better. In D&D 3.5e, the Paladin/Sorcerer gish was undoubtedly heavier on the Sorcerer side, and the name was used for years. Also, Paladorc just makes me think that your race choice is already locked into to half-orc. If you're going with a made-up name, Spell-Sworn would be the best of the provided options; if not, Sorcadin is probably better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    Yeah, youíre true, I should raise it. Armor of Agathys is without doubt one of the best scaling spells! Though Iím not sure if itís okay to compare Fireballís damage to that of Armor of Agathys (the whole point of Fireball is that you can damage multiple enemies at once with just one casting; youíre never gonna use it on a single target), it is true that Agathys can be a very good option for Paladin/Sorcs too. It is a bit anti-synergetic with Inspiring Leader and stuff though, so I should note that if youíre going to take either, you prolly shouldnít take the other.
    ...Wait, there are builds that can fit in a feat slot for Inspiring Leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    Though I doubt you will use concentration for Hex when there are so many other concentration options, youíre true that Eldritch Blast is a good ranged attack option. I havenít played Pal/Sorc/Lock with emphasis on Lock before, so I donít know how well it will go, but it does seem interesting. The only thing Iím afraid of is running out of Sorcery Points too easily... From that viewpoint, maybe you should go Lock 11 before Sorc 3? I dunno.
    If I were to put together a Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock, I'd cap my Warlock to 4 at the very most, and probably stick with 1 level. Sorcerer levels cap your maximum number of sorcery points, so War 11/Sor 3 would waste the sorcery points they could otherwise get from breaking down their slots. I'd consider level 2 on a Greatsword Build for Devil's Sight if getting advantage is inconsistent for me and Shadow Sorcerer was disallowed. The third level would only be so that I don't have to burn a sorcerer spell known for Darkness, and to let it reset on a short rest. Level 4, obviously, would be for that ASI; we don't get nearly enough of those.

    Still, it's usually best to cap it to 1 or maybe 2 levels.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I'm playing a character who may be developing in reverse... we just reached 5th level, and I started with Undying Light Warlock-2, then switched to Favored Soul Sorerer-2... We just reached 5th and I'm getting my sweet sweet meta-magic...

    I'm thinking of a couple of Paladin levels so I can Smite. (hopefully he'll wiggle the rules and let me have the heavy armor proficiency, he may rule I have to take a level of Pally before 5 to get away with it...)

    I'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm guessing the second pool of low level spells will add up to a nice edge in Shield spells and Smite fuel.
    Last edited by Mikey P; 2016-10-06 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Maybe add a section of optimal backgrounds?
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    If I were to put together a Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock, I'd cap my Warlock to 4 at the very most, and probably stick with 1 level. Sorcerer levels cap your maximum number of sorcery points, so War 11/Sor 3 would waste the sorcery points they could otherwise get from breaking down their slots. I'd consider level 2 on a Greatsword Build for Devil's Sight if getting advantage is inconsistent for me and Shadow Sorcerer was disallowed. The third level would only be so that I don't have to burn a sorcerer spell known for Darkness, and to let it reset on a short rest. Level 4, obviously, would be for that ASI; we don't get nearly enough of those.
    I would almost definitely take them to at least L4 though, to keep up the ASI. They get 2nd level slots at Lv3. When Sorc gets Metamagic at Lv3, he has 3 Sorcery Points, aka a 2nd level spell.

    I don't know how much you'd be relying on your Sorcery Points with even a pure Sorcadin. You only need 2SPs for Quickened spell, which seems like the cornerstone of the build (other than perhaps the Sorc spell list). Heightened Spell is still just 3SPs. The most pricey option is Twinned Spell, and at Sorc3 you are capped at only twinning 3rd level spells.

    By focusing on Warlock over Sorcerer, you get fewer slots, but they renew more often. One of the stated disadvantages of the Sorcadin is that they "burn hot" on resources, using their low level slots for Sorcery Points, and your high-level slots for Smites and actual casting. Warlocks can do that, albeit at reduced spell-level, but as long as your DM isn't stingy on Short Rests, you can do it more often and be less stingy yourself.

    Unless your campaign goes to Lv20, you don't lose out much with multi-classing. Take every class to Lv4 and you only miss out on your last ASI and your 14th level ability, Capstone ability, and 9th level slots.

    I will say that if you take Warlock beyond Lv4, you need to go BladeLock and go all the way to Bladelock12 for LifeDrinker, and go a 4/4 split on Sorc and Paladin. I think this build would more closely rival the Paladin11 build. LifeDrinker offsets Improved Divine Smite. You still get the extra attack. You're losing out on the higher level slots from Sorcerer, Wings from Drag Sorc, and Aura from Pally6, so I obviously wouldn't call it SkyBlue. And considering how much damage you can rock with Quickened Eldritch Blast and Crossbow Expert from straight SorLock, I'm not sure how much the Paladin levels are worth - which kind of defeats the purpose of the guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey P View Post
    (hopefully he'll wiggle the rules and let me have the heavy armor proficiency, he may rule I have to take a level of Pally before 5 to get away with it...)

    I'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm guessing the second pool of low level spells will add up to a nice edge in Shield spells and Smite fuel.
    As a DM I usually allow players to multiclass a level in something and swap their skills and proficiencies and saves around as if they'd started at that level. It comes from my own experience with all of the classes which prefer to take their first level out of class (usually in Fighter). It's silly to say, "Hi guys, I'm gonna play a Warlock! But not until 2nd level..."

    Just remember that high level spells make good Smite fuel as well. Extra D8 per level after 1st. That's one thing I like about going into high levels of Warlock with Paladin levels - you get fewer and lower level slots over-all, but the slots you do get, are all at their max level.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I was unaware GFB couldn't be twinned. Why is this the case?
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco4472 View Post
    I was unaware GFB couldn't be twinned. Why is this the case?
    It has two targets, the target of the weapon attack and the target the fire jumps to, so it is ineligible for Twinning.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
    That might have some bad blood because of the awful 3.5 prestige class with the same name...
    Hey it was good for one level. NO lost spell progression at level 1 made it good for one level assuming you already met the prerequisites.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I would keep the name birthblade or swap it to sorcadin. I doubt a slightly annoying name would be enough to turn anyone off reading the guide. In advice as to how to play them at lower levels, I have always played them as paladin to level 6, then started working on my sorcerer levels. Has worked for me so far!

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I think there is far too much emphasis placed on pal6 in this guide.
    With the addition of the SCAG cantrips, extra attack is a lot less useful, so going to pal6 is basically just for Cha to saves.
    Don't get me wrong, Cha to saves is nice, but to get it you're giving up:
    *4 sorcery points
    *your 8th level spell known
    *your 9th level spell known
    *one metamagic known
    *one subclass feature
    *learning your sorc spells 6 levels later instead of 2 levels later

    And while the SCAG cantrips are almost as good as extra attack, if you go FvS you can still get extra attack on top of it.
    I personally feel that the cost is too steep, and that pal6 is almost a trap.

    Oh, and it's a Sorcadin, just like it has been for the last (almost) two decades.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2016-10-07 at 01:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Imo, there should be multiple names based on your level breakdowns based on the multiclassing.

    "Sorcadin" to me, sounds like something with more Sorc levels than Paladin, which should be the default name for a majority of the builds.

    "Paladorc" sounds like the builds with more Paladin levels, likely usable for the builds that go for IDS + PAM or other similar shennanigans which require a much heavier investment into Paladin.

    "Birthblade" sounds like something that should be used more for a Sorcerer/Bladelock multi-class. Perhaps it could work for a sub-section of this guide focused on Triple-Classing with stuff like Warlock 3/Paladin 3/Sorcerer 14 type builds?

    Spell-Blade, Spell-Sword, Sword-Born, etc could all be used as alternatives, but stuff like Spell Sword and Spell Blade seems more fitting for an Eldritch Knight type character, which granted, we are very similar to, but in a different way.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    I think there is far too much emphasis placed on pal6 in this guide.
    With the addition of the SCAG cantrips, extra attack is a lot less useful, so going to pal6 is basically just for Cha to saves.
    Don't get me wrong, Cha to saves is nice, but to get it you're giving up:
    *4 sorcery points
    *your 8th level spell known
    *your 9th level spell known
    *one metamagic known
    *one subclass feature
    *learning your sorc spells 6 levels later instead of 2 levels later

    And while the SCAG cantrips are almost as good as extra attack, if you go FvS you can still get extra attack on top of it.
    I personally feel that the cost is too steep, and that pal6 is almost a trap.
    You're forgetting Smite. 2 attacks means double the opportunity to Smite, and means double the chance to Crit and add massive Smite damage.
    Losing all that stuff isn't that bad "off paper" - he mentions many times in the guide that most characters/campaigns won't get to 20th level. Furthermore, what I gathered from reading the guide, and what I have seen in my own experience, is that your high-level slots are mainly for fuelling Smite, Sorcery Points, and improving lower level spells.

    Sorcerers can do some pretty epic stuff at the higher levels, but Wizards can too, and usually do it better anyway if you want to go single-class caster. There are some classes that make excellently powerful single-class characters at high level, and others that are either so front loaded that a dip is perfect, or that just lose steam higher in the progression and it makes sense to dip out. Those classes are ripe for Multi-classing. You can see it in the way that most people just dip in/out of particular classes.

    What makes the Sorcadin so good, is that Paladins are one of those "dip-out" classes, and Sorcerers are slightly front-loaded (you mostly go Sorc for Metamagic and Bloodline, which you get at 3). The fact that Sorcs are full-casters is the reason that most people stay with them. Even builds that are mostly Sorcerer, still seem to consider themselves to be whatever they started as. "Sorcerer helps Paladin," and "Sorcerer helps Warlock." Sorcerer is the only class that not only does this often, but also never seems to get outside help. Dipping into X-Class doesn't "help Sorcerers" to do their job better. If you're a Sorcerer and want to do your job better, reroll as Wizard. Warlock is very nearly the same, but there are viable builds where Warlock is the primary level and primary skill-set, but they dip just a few levels in Fighter/Paladin or Cleric for Armor, or Rogue for sneaky damage goodies.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Hey it was good for one level. NO lost spell progression at level 1 made it good for one level assuming you already met the prerequisites.
    It also, frankly, was conceptually an appropriate gish PrC. WotC overestimated how valuable getting casting-in-armor was (particularly in a game where +x twilight mithral shirts and shields were cheap) and underestimated the opportunity cost of giving up a spellcaster level.

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    I think there is far too much emphasis placed on pal6 in this guide.
    With the addition of the SCAG cantrips, extra attack is a lot less useful, so going to pal6 is basically just for Cha to saves.
    Pal 6 is one more than Pal 5, and extra attack is absolutely vital for a specific character concept. This again goes back to the question of what type of character you are building. I think it's awesome that Paladins and Sorcerers synergize so well that we can be discussing the merits of P2S18, P4S16, P6S14, P12S8 (or my fav. P8S12). It's a vast shift from 3e where there was one or two obvious sorcadin builds, and everything else was clearly inferior.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2016-10-07 at 06:58 AM. Reason: formatting

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Both of those posts are all well and good, but neither of them adress the point I was making.
    If you want extra attack, you go FvS. Now you still have extra attack.
    And now you are going pal6, costing you four levels of sorcerous goodies, and basically only gain Cha+saves.
    In my opinion, that cost is WAY too high, so all the focus in this guide on pal6 is overinflated.

    Unless you're playing in what amounts to an AL game, or unless you plan on focusing more on Paladin levels than Sorcerer, pal6 is a trap.
    And even if you are playing in what amounts to an AL game, with the addition of the SCAG cantrips extra attack is far less important than it was, so pal6 is still arguably a trap.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2016-10-07 at 08:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Both of those posts are all well and good, but neither of them adress the point I was making. If you want extra attack, you go FvS. Now you still have extra attack.
    I do not see how they are not addressing the point that you made. Extra attack is only less useful in certain builds. (also, as an aside, only in SCAG supported games). FvS also comes out of a potentially DM-unsupported supplemental source (plus it means that you aren't picking up the other sorcerous origin, which might be part of your build concept). Further, Going P2(FvS)S18 means that you get your first ASI at level 6 and extra attack at level 8. If you're actually playing through levels 1-8, that delay can be significant.

    And now you are going pal6, costing you four levels of sorcerous goodies, and basically only gain Cha+saves.
    In my opinion, that cost is WAY too high, so all the focus in this guide on pal6 is overinflated.
    Sorry that this handbook for discussing all the potential options for playing a sorcerer-paladin hybrid focuses too much on build options that you find disfavorable. If you have additional discussion about optimal ways to make a P2S18, and the OP adds it, will that satisfy you, or do you actively want discussion of P6 builds removed?


    Unless you're playing in what amounts to an AL game, or unless you plan on focusing more on Paladin levels than Sorcerer, pal6 is a trap. And even if you are playing in what amounts to an AL game, with the addition of the SCAG cantrips extra attack is far less important than it was, so pal6 is still arguably a trap.
    Aside: I'm not sure I know what an AL game is. Can you clarify?Emphasis on the arguably. Either way, you say it's a trap. That's fine. So what? Some people will want to play it. Others won't. You've expressed an opinion on the matter. The end.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2016-10-07 at 09:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Sorry that this handbook for discussing all the potential options for playing a sorcerer-paladin hybrid focuses too much on build options that you find disfavorable. If you have additional discussion about optimal ways to make a P2S18, and the OP adds it, will that satisfy you, or do you actively want discussion of P6 builds removed?
    My complaint is that this is supposedly a guide on multiclassing Paladin and Sorcerer, and almost All of it entails and assumes Paladin 6.
    Thats a huge glaring issue with what is supposed to be a "guide" for multiclassing.

    This shouldn't be called a guide for this multiclass without delving into detail about other breakpoints. It hardly does that at all.
    This should be called "The Guide to multiclass pal6/sorc14, with minimal comments on other Sorcadin multiclass builds."

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    You've expressed an opinion on the matter. The end.
    Nice. Glad to see you're willing to have a discussion about things. Welcome to the Playground.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    My complaint is that this is supposedly a guide on multiclassing Paladin and Sorcerer, and almost All of it entails and assumes Paladin 6.
    Thats a huge glaring issue with what is supposed to be a "guide" for multiclassing.
    Then don't complain about the inclusion of Pal6 material, suggest material for Pal2.

    Nice. Glad to see you're willing to have a discussion about things. Welcome to the Playground.
    You're right. My phrasing deserved that response. I meant "the end?" not "the end." and either way it wasn't good communication. What I should have said, was more along the lines of 'do you have something to add other than you dislike x?'

    However, I wouldn't get on a high horse about supposed cutting off of discussion right after complaining about a guide because it includes discussion of a build choice you dis-prefer.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2016-10-07 at 09:35 AM. Reason: formatting, spelling, communication. Ugh.

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