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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Then don't complain about the inclusion of Pal6 material, suggest material for Pal2.

    You're right. My phrasing deserved that response. I meant "the end?" not "the end." and either way it wasn't good communication. What I should have said, was more along the lines of 'do you have something to add other than you dislike x?'

    However, I wouldn't get on a high horse about supposed cutting off of discussion right after complaining about a guide because it includes discussion of a build choice you dis-prefer.
    Dude, that's exactly what I've done. Requesting that this "guide" for multiclassing Sorcadin not focus almost solely on pal6/sorc14.
    It needs more details on p2/s18, p3/s17, p7/s13, p8/s12, p9/s11, p12/s8, p16/s4, etc.
    Until then, it isn't what it claims to be. Not even close.

    I think maybe you're the one that should get off your high horse, as you put it.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2016-10-07 at 09:40 AM.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I'm not going to call paladin 6 a trap, because I think CHA to saves is an amazing ability. That being said, I really like the idea of favored soul sorcerer to get extra attack eventually, while not slowing down sorcerer one bit.

    I'm really liking the idea of the trickery favored soul sorcadin (2/X), and going DEX based to cover some cool skills and stuff. You're pretty much locked into half elf as your race (13/16/14/8/9/16), but it sounds fun. The favored soul fits so well thematically with the paladin class.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I'm really liking the idea of the trickery favored soul sorcadin (2/X), and going DEX based to cover some cool skills and stuff. You're pretty much locked into half elf as your race (13/16/14/8/9/16), but it sounds fun. The favored soul fits so well thematically with the paladin class.
    Yeah, that was the one I suggested to you in another thread. It's an absolute blast to play, and full of flavor. Mine was a Priestess of Tymora.

    Edit
    And all the gifs keep crashing the browser on my tablet. Too much.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2016-10-07 at 10:13 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Dude, that's exactly what I've done. Requesting that this "guide" for multiclassing Sorcadin not focus almost solely on pal6/sorc14.
    It needs more details on p2/s18, p3/s17, p7/s13, p8/s12, p9/s11, p12/s8, p16/s4, etc.
    Until then, it isn't what it claims to be. Not even close.

    I think maybe you're the one that should get off your high horse, as you put it.
    I think we're probably at an impasse at who thinks who needs to what, and well past the point of convincing the other. I don't think that's what you've done, but I don't think we're going to agree.

    If you're still at the point of being receptive to honest advice, they way I would have said it would be, "this handbook has lots of advice for Paladin6/Sorcerer14 builds, but needs to be fleshed out for other mixtures. I personally think going all the way to 6 in Pal isn't worth it, given that [something about FvS extra attack and SCAG cantrips] and prefer a Pal2 S18, here are my thoughts..." And not on calling Pal6 a trap. Take or leave it as you will. I've no interest in creating drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox
    I'm not going to call paladin 6 a trap, because I think CHA to saves is an amazing ability. That being said, I really like the idea of favored soul sorcerer to get extra attack eventually, while not slowing down sorcerer one bit.
    It depends on what I'm trying to do. There's two ways I think of Gishes as-- a warrior who enhances their combat with spells, or a character who can switch hit between spells and combat. For that later, you really need not to slow down your spell advancement any more than you can. For the former, the +cha to saves really helps.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Yeah, that was the one I suggested to you in another thread. It's an absolute blast to play, and full of flavor. Mine was a Priestess of Tymora.

    Edit
    And all the gifs keep crashing the browser on my tablet. Too much.
    I don't think it's optimal, but it sure seems fun.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    It depends on what I'm trying to do. There's two ways I think of Gishes as-- a warrior who enhances their combat with spells, or a character who can switch hit between spells and combat. For that later, you really need not to slow down your spell advancement any more than you can. For the former, the +cha to saves really helps.
    I agree. The 2/X split is a personal preference. If I'm going to multiclass, I want my character to "look" like my end character concept will quickly.

    In a vacuum, 6/X (7 if OotA) is more powerful. I'm also *personally* a fan of spellcasters. It makes sense that I'd like the more heavy spellcasting build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    In a vacuum, 6/X (7 if OotA) is more powerful. I'm also *personally* a fan of spellcasters. It makes sense that I'd like the more heavy spellcasting build.
    Right, and the guide is talking optimization. If you want to diverge from the guide, nobody is going to show up your house and beat you up. If you dont want to super optimize your character, that's awesome, good for you.

    The guide is just that; a guide. It's good to know what you could do, and it's good to know the optimal choices at each level so that you have an idea for what route to take up until you diverge, or understand that if you don't take those choices, you're likely handicapping yourself a bit.

    I guess that perhaps he could have been more clear about why you don't go with a different split, but I'd have to reread the guide to make sure that he didn't already. I'm fairly certain that a lot of it has to do with Aura, and the fact that it not only aids you and makes you more "tanky" but also because it assists the party without costing resources. It's a seriously good ability for a 6th level ability

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    One thing that I like about some guides is that they take into account that not every game will ever reach level 20

    I must admit I'm more interested in optimisation of builds sub 6th, and I find nearly every game I play in reaches this level, and any higher level games will have level 6 as one of its levels.

    Whilst paladin 6th level is perfectly optimised, I for one am very keen for guides showing sub 10th level optimisation.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    Right, and the guide is talking optimization. If you want to diverge from the guide, nobody is going to show up your house and beat you up. If you dont want to super optimize your character, that's awesome, good for you.

    The guide is just that; a guide. It's good to know what you could do, and it's good to know the optimal choices at each level so that you have an idea for what route to take up until you diverge, or understand that if you don't take those choices, you're likely handicapping yourself a bit.

    I guess that perhaps he could have been more clear about why you don't go with a different split, but I'd have to reread the guide to make sure that he didn't already. I'm fairly certain that a lot of it has to do with Aura, and the fact that it not only aids you and makes you more "tanky" but also because it assists the party without costing resources. It's a seriously good ability for a 6th level ability
    Don't get me wrong: I think it might be the best level 6 ability in the game.

    That being said, it's arguable, in a level 20 vacuum, to say that the pal2/sorcerer18 with his level 9 spells is better. It's a matter of preference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Pal 6 / Sorc 14 gets an almost always on bonus to all saves (which extends to allies), at-will flight, and still has Level 8 and Level 9 slots. It gets a base 21 AC with non-magical gear (which is competitive with the EK and the Barbarian), Shield, some minor healing abilities, and has more meat than the Sorcerer does by default. Does it lose things by not being Pal 20 or Sorc 20? Yes. But this isn't a build meant to do that.

    While I do admit that there is merit in other MC levels like Pal 2 / Sorc 18, at that point, it's more of a Sorcerer build with some Paladin sprinkles and not exactly what this a "Birthblade" is. I do think there should be more discussion of different level splits, but there are some obvious issues of when to split.

    As an example, Pal 12 / Sorc 8 doesn't get the 7th, 8th or 9th level slot, only knows up to 4th level spells, and only has two kinds of metamagic and only has 8 Sorcery Points. In exchange, their aura makes everyone immune to fear and they do 1d8 extra radiant damage on all melee attacks and have 12d10+ 8d6 + 20*CON HP. Is that trade-off worth it? The OP implies no, and I agree with that.

    Pal 8 / Sorc 12 is missing the 9th Level slot. And in exchange for the immune to fright aura, and bonus 1d8 radiant, and some health, they pick up a cantrip, 1 metamagic, 6th level spells, and 4 sorcery points.


    @OP: I thought the name "Birthblade" was cool, but there's no pleasing everyone.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Spoiler: Names
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    For historical purposes, Sorcadin would probably be better. In D&D 3.5e, the Paladin/Sorcerer gish was undoubtedly heavier on the Sorcerer side, and the name was used for years. Also, Paladorc just makes me think that your race choice is already locked into to half-orc. If you're going with a made-up name, Spell-Sworn would be the best of the provided options; if not, Sorcadin is probably better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Logic View Post
    I would keep the name birthblade or swap it to sorcadin. I doubt a slightly annoying name would be enough to turn anyone off reading the guide. In advice as to how to play them at lower levels, I have always played them as paladin to level 6, then started working on my sorcerer levels. Has worked for me so far!
    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Oh, and it's a Sorcadin, just like it has been for the last (almost) two decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongobear View Post
    Imo, there should be multiple names based on your level breakdowns based on the multiclassing.

    "Sorcadin" to me, sounds like something with more Sorc levels than Paladin, which should be the default name for a majority of the builds.

    "Paladorc" sounds like the builds with more Paladin levels, likely usable for the builds that go for IDS + PAM or other similar shennanigans which require a much heavier investment into Paladin.

    "Birthblade" sounds like something that should be used more for a Sorcerer/Bladelock multi-class. Perhaps it could work for a sub-section of this guide focused on Triple-Classing with stuff like Warlock 3/Paladin 3/Sorcerer 14 type builds?

    Spell-Blade, Spell-Sword, Sword-Born, etc could all be used as alternatives, but stuff like Spell Sword and Spell Blade seems more fitting for an Eldritch Knight type character, which granted, we are very similar to, but in a different way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Nappa View Post
    @OP: I thought the name "Birthblade" was cool, but there's no pleasing everyone.
    While Ghost Nappa said it's cool (thanks!), hearing all these voices, Iím starting to think Sorcadin is the better choice. It should be important that everybody gets what I'm saying with first glance.

    I will soon change everything to Sorcadin, and proceed to state in the first post that discussing about what to call the gish will be dis-allowed and considered off-topic in the thread.

    Spoiler: Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    If I were to put together a Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock, I'd cap my Warlock to 4 at the very most, and probably stick with 1 level. Sorcerer levels cap your maximum number of sorcery points, so War 11/Sor 3 would waste the sorcery points they could otherwise get from breaking down their slots. I'd consider level 2 on a Greatsword Build for Devil's Sight if getting advantage is inconsistent for me and Shadow Sorcerer was disallowed . The third level would only be so that I don't have to burn a sorcerer spell known for Darkness, and to let it reset on a short rest. Level 4, obviously, would be for that ASI; we don't get nearly enough of those.

    Still, it's usually best to cap it to 1 or maybe 2 levels.
    TBH I think that if Shadow Sorcerer was disallowed, itís better to go Fighter 1 / Bladelock X than Paladin/Sorcerer for Greatsword builds (they make pretty darn powerful builds too). But that aside, yeah, itís true that War/Sor 3 will not be able to gain all the possible benefits of Metamagic.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    I would almost definitely take them to at least L4 though, to keep up the ASI. They get 2nd level slots at Lv3. When Sorc gets Metamagic at Lv3, he has 3 Sorcery Points, aka a 2nd level spell.

    I don't know how much you'd be relying on your Sorcery Points with even a pure Sorcadin. You only need 2SPs for Quickened spell, which seems like the cornerstone of the build (other than perhaps the Sorc spell list). Heightened Spell is still just 3SPs. The most pricey option is Twinned Spell, and at Sorc3 you are capped at only twinning 3rd level spells.
    Well, Quickened Spell is great in how it increases your action economy, but at times Careful Spell can be even more important. It really depends on your build. But either way, one thing for sure, having a lot of it is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    By focusing on Warlock over Sorcerer, you get fewer slots, but they renew more often. One of the stated disadvantages of the Sorcadin is that they "burn hot" on resources, using their low level slots for Sorcery Points, and your high-level slots for Smites and actual casting. Warlocks can do that, albeit at reduced spell-level, but as long as your DM isn't stingy on Short Rests, you can do it more often and be less stingy yourself.
    Well, as explained in the Multiclassing section, this depends on the nature of your campaign. If you get more than 2 short rests per long rest, you can hurl more spells, but if you get only 1 or 2 short rests per long rest, Sorcerers have strictly better spellcasting.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    Unless your campaign goes to Lv20, you don't lose out much with multi-classing. Take every class to Lv4 and you only miss out on your last ASI and your 14th level ability, Capstone ability, and 9th level slots.

    I will say that if you take Warlock beyond Lv4, you need to go BladeLock and go all the way to Bladelock12 for LifeDrinker, and go a 4/4 split on Sorc and Paladin. I think this build would more closely rival the Paladin11 build. LifeDrinker offsets Improved Divine Smite. You still get the extra attack. You're losing out on the higher level slots from Sorcerer, Wings from Drag Sorc, and Aura from Pally6, so I obviously wouldn't call it SkyBlue. And considering how much damage you can rock with Quickened Eldritch Blast and Crossbow Expert from straight SorLock, I'm not sure how much the Paladin levels are worth - which kind of defeats the purpose of the guide.
    Well, if you want damage bonuses from CHA, Oathbreakers get it at level 7 via Aura of Hate, so I think itíll be better to just go Oathbreaker 11 for 5+1d8 extra damage per hit (this potentially rivals the damage of a level 20 fighter with S&B). And if youíre going Bladelock 12, I think that itís just better to go normal Bladelock... Bladelocks are a pretty cool class too. I think leveling up in so many classes will disperse your power and also create points where you donít gain much fro, leveling up, which can be frustrating in actual gameplay. It does look fun, but to be honest I donít think it really seems like something to put in a guide about Paladin/Sorcerer optimization. If anything itís a variant of Bladelocks.

    Spoiler: Personal build
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey P View Post
    I'm playing a character who may be developing in reverse... we just reached 5th level, and I started with Undying Light Warlock-2, then switched to Favored Soul Sorerer-2... We just reached 5th and I'm getting my sweet sweet meta-magic...

    I'm thinking of a couple of Paladin levels so I can Smite. (hopefully he'll wiggle the rules and let me have the heavy armor proficiency, he may rule I have to take a level of Pally before 5 to get away with it...)

    I'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm guessing the second pool of low level spells will add up to a nice edge in Shield spells and Smite fuel.
    Does sound nice! I think you should probably go to Paladin 4 for War Caster before going into Paladin though.

    The truth is that Paladin/Sorcerers are so powerful itís difficult to mess them up. Creating as you like will probably still create something thatís quite strong and fun to play.

    Spoiler: Backgrounds
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Maybe add a section of optimal backgrounds?
    Nyeh, sorry but I will not make this. This is because in a majority of the games I have played, all the characters have created original backgrounds, picking the two skills they think are most thematic and adding a random background feature from the background that seems the closest of the ones in the PHB.

    I imagine only the most strict DMs will rule that you can use only the PHB backgrounds... I mean, like, it specifically says in the PHB that players can create original backgrounds. At least I have never played with such a strict DM. And I am also glad about it (I tend to be a rather Chaotic DM, and will probably feel frustrated when other DMs are too strict with rulings and stuff).

    Besides, skills are not the Paladin/Sorcererís main thing. The only real thing I can say is that DEX builds should get stealth, but thatís sorta self-explanatory.

    Spoiler: Pal 2 or 6?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    I think there is far too much emphasis placed on pal6 in this guide.
    With the addition of the SCAG cantrips, extra attack is a lot less useful, so going to pal6 is basically just for Cha to saves.
    Don't get me wrong, Cha to saves is nice, but to get it you're giving up:
    *4 sorcery points
    *your 8th level spell known
    *your 9th level spell known
    *one metamagic known
    *one subclass feature
    *learning your sorc spells 6 levels later instead of 2 levels later

    And while the SCAG cantrips are almost as good as extra attack, if you go FvS you can still get extra attack on top of it.
    I personally feel that the cost is too steep, and that pal6 is almost a trap.
    Saying Pal 6 is almost a trap is definitely an exaggeration IMO, but it may be true that I rated Paladin 2 to be too low. Well... Itís actually not that I think Paladin 2 is weak, itís just that I think Aura of Protection is just much too amazing to pass. And all the people I created this guide with agreed that 6/14 was the best combination, so to be honest I didnít think much deep into the other concepts. But youíre right in that I should have a section where I discuss the pros and cons of the various builds like 2/18, 3/17, 6/14, 7/13, 8/12, 9/11, 11/9, 12/8. I will create them later when I have time. As already mentioned, I am very busy right now - but thereís a reason why I reserved 3 extra posts.

    Spoiler: questions
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    ...Wait, there are builds that can fit in a feat slot for Inspiring Leader?
    I personally think that itís more beneficial than CON+2 or STR +2. This is a matter of preference though. Either way itís after you max out CHA.

    Spoiler: About gifs
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    And all the gifs keep crashing the browser on my tablet. Too much.
    This is an obvious mistake on my part. I have not used tablets with much frequence, so I had the misconception that everyone watches these threads using computers. But if that is the case, I will soon create a second thread which has all the same material, except with no GIFs. Will that do?

    Spoiler: Low to mid-level builds
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8wGremlin View Post
    One thing that I like about some guides is that they take into account that not every game will ever reach level 20

    I must admit I'm more interested in optimisation of builds sub 6th, and I find nearly every game I play in reaches this level, and any higher level games will have level 6 as one of its levels.

    Whilst paladin 6th level is perfectly optimised, I for one am very keen for guides showing sub 10th level optimisation.
    Thanks for the feedback! Shall I post more level 6~7 builds, then?
    Spoiler: Avatar
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    Spoiler: Quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    [spoiler=About gifs]This is an obvious mistake on my part. I have not used tablets with much frequence, so I had the misconception that everyone watches these threads using computers. But if that is the case, I will soon create a second thread which has all the same material, except with no GIFs. Will that do?
    No need to change anything after the fact unless you really want to. Just thought I'd mention it, more for future reference. But it would make it easier on those of us who use tabs more often than PCs.

    Honestly, I'd think it was too much of I were on my PC as well. Visual overload. But that's just a personal thing.
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
    and I continue to not respond,
    it's probably because I have
    you on my Ignore list.
    Congratulations.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    If you're concerned about the gifs, stick them in spoilers so people can choose to open them or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Personally I would just remove them. They do not serve any real purpose (at least for this guide since I do not think that the subject matter is so out there that people need a visual representation to get the creative juices going). There will be some who think some of the pictures are cool but I just don't see them being worth it if it causing people problems in seeing your work.

    People are coming to see your actual content and writing. Pictures are nice to have but may be more trouble than they are worth if it keeps some users from using it..
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2016-10-07 at 09:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    If you're concerned about the gifs, stick them in spoilers so people can choose to open them or not.
    I think that even if you put them in spoilers, they still get counted in the capacity of tablets, regardless of you open them or not. The easiest solution will be to create another thread in which there are no GIFs.
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    Spoiler: Quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Nappa View Post
    Pal 6 / Sorc 14 gets an almost always on bonus to all saves (which extends to allies), at-will flight, and still has Level 8 and Level 9 slots. It gets a base 21 AC with non-magical gear (which is competitive with the EK and the Barbarian), Shield, some minor healing abilities, and has more meat than the Sorcerer does by default. Does it lose things by not being Pal 20 or Sorc 20? Yes. But this isn't a build meant to do that.

    While I do admit that there is merit in other MC levels like Pal 2 / Sorc 18, at that point, it's more of a Sorcerer build with some Paladin sprinkles and not exactly what this a "Birthblade" is. I do think there should be more discussion of different level splits, but there are some obvious issues of when to split.

    As an example, Pal 12 / Sorc 8 doesn't get the 7th, 8th or 9th level slot, only knows up to 4th level spells, and only has two kinds of metamagic and only has 8 Sorcery Points. In exchange, their aura makes everyone immune to fear and they do 1d8 extra radiant damage on all melee attacks and have 12d10+ 8d6 + 20*CON HP. Is that trade-off worth it? The OP implies no, and I agree with that.

    Pal 8 / Sorc 12 is missing the 9th Level slot. And in exchange for the immune to fright aura, and bonus 1d8 radiant, and some health, they pick up a cantrip, 1 metamagic, 6th level spells, and 4 sorcery points.
    I don't have a very strong opinion on what an 'ideal' split is (if such a thing exists), but if we're making the comparison, we should include everyting.

    As for Pal 12 / Sorc 8, it's not just the immunity to fear, 1d8 radiant damage and some extra HP. It's also
    - an ASI
    - 30 extra healing with Lay on Hands
    - access to 3rd level paladin spells, that are really good

    As for Pal 8 / Sorc 12, it also has one extra ASI compared with Pal 6 / Sor 14, a little bit of extra LoH, and (depensing on sor variant) 2 hp / level less.

    That's quite a bit. ASI's are huge for a paladin (or his multiclass), because it wants to maximize cha, and it's combat stat, and especially the multi class variant that is low on HP benefits from con as well. Also, these builds benefit a lot from feats, wether it is lucky (to make disadvantage super advantage for smites), pole arm master (for bonus attack and ocational reaction attack, for extra smite options), or shield master (for bonus shove and double the chance on smite, due to advantage). Lay on hands is also a very good ability imo because it allows a character to go from 0 to full fighting mode again. The more points you have in such an instance, the better.

    Not saying this is better than high level spells and more sorcery points, but extra levels in pally definitely has its own advantages.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    However, that is a question you can wait until you are a Pal 6 / Sorc 12 to have to try to answer, so I bet in many games it won't matter. :-)

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    I think that even if you put them in spoilers, they still get counted in the capacity of tablets, regardless of you open them or not. The easiest solution will be to create another thread in which there are no GIFs.
    The problem is that many people read the thread over for commentary, though, and splitting the threads would take away from that. Additionally, the mods are incredibly likely to merge the threads, as they're completely identical topics, and you run into the issues of having to maintain identical text on two entirely separate threads at once. There's bound to be at least a few things that don't get changed each time you update a thread.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    The other problem with the guide as is, is that it doesn't go over Paladin spells. While you're not going all the way to Pal's 5th level, it could be helpful to point out some of the more useful or unique Pally spells (Like Find Steed).

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Would you recommend a paladin/sorcerer 6/1 bother taking booming blade and green flame blade?

    It's one of my favorite tricks for a pal 2/sorc X, but that character doesn't have multiple attacks (unless you go favored soul sorcerer).
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    The problem is that many people read the thread over for commentary, though, and splitting the threads would take away from that. Additionally, the mods are incredibly likely to merge the threads, as they're completely identical topics, and you run into the issues of having to maintain identical text on two entirely separate threads at once. There's bound to be at least a few things that don't get changed each time you update a thread.
    Klorox has once suggested me to post the same topic on ENWorld. If the mods frown upon me posting identical topics in here, I will post the GIF-less version in there and request Daishain to have a link to the ENWorld version thread in his "Guides for 5e" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Nappa View Post
    The other problem with the guide as is, is that it doesn't go over Paladin spells. While you're not going all the way to Pal's 5th level, it could be helpful to point out some of the more useful or unique Pally spells (Like Find Steed).
    Well, as already written in the thread, I didn't rate Paladin spells because I thought the pre-existing guides cover them well enough. Do you have any spells besides Find Steed you find to be especially interesting?

    But yeah, a Paladin/Sorcerer utilizing Find Steed does look interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Would you recommend a paladin/sorcerer 6/1 bother taking booming blade and green flame blade?

    It's one of my favorite tricks for a pal 2/sorc X, but that character doesn't have multiple attacks (unless you go favored soul sorcerer).
    I don't know what you mean by "Paladin/Sorcerer6/1" (what's what "/1"?) but if you don't have Extra Attack you should have both GFB and BB.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    This is a very well-written guide, and one I may use in the future (Sorcadin is on the list of builds I'd like to play). I have two main comments, however:

    1) I'd like to see a little more expansion on WHY Aura of Protection is so good as to justify four more levels of Paladin than you otherwise need. If you take Fire Dragon Sorcerer (hands-down the best choice if your DM doesn't allow the UA Origins) and Greenflame Blade, Extra Attack doesn't actually significantly increase your damage on a Sword and Board build (outside those occasions where you're dealing with fire resistance or immunity), so it becomes a wasted feature, leaving the Aura the only major reason to stay in Paladin that long. By going Paladin 2 or 3 you are vastly increasing the power of your spellcasting, which, in addition to the obvious benefits of higher level spells and more Sorcery Points earlier, increases the power of your Smites and allows you to eventually get 9th-level spells in a long enough campaign. You say yourself in your guide that Sorcadin doesn't really come online until higher levels, so if you're playing this build in the first place (and using this guide for it) you're probably planning on seeing high levels.

    2) I would argue that even without Polearm Master, a glaive or halberd is a better choice for the great weapon build than a greatsword, ESPECIALLY if the UA feat is off the table but maybe even if it's available. With your Sorcerer spells you can create plenty of situations where having reach allows you to freely attack a melee opponent without them being able to attack back (most notably Fly but there are battlefield control options as well). Imo that tactical option is worth more than the +1.5 average damage on the greatsword. In fact, this might make the whip worth mentioning for the finesse build for similar reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    . You say yourself in your guide that Sorcadin doesn't really come online until higher levels,
    That's only because he focuses almost exclusively on pal6/sorcX, which does in fact come online quite a bit later.
    Sorcadin in general is online as early as level 3 (pal2/sorc1), and really gets going at level 5 (pal2/sorc3).
    But this only works of you're just looking at a pally dip, because if you're doing more than that then you want extra attack as soon as possible, which then means you aren't really going strong until level 9.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    1) I'd like to see a little more expansion on WHY Aura of Protection is so good as to justify four more levels of Paladin than you otherwise need.
    I think he assumed "add Cha bonus to all saves within 10'" to be self-explanatory in terms of how awesome that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    If you take Fire Dragon Sorcerer (hands-down the best choice if your DM doesn't allow the UA Origins) and Greenflame Blade, Extra Attack doesn't actually significantly increase your damage on a Sword and Board build (outside those occasions where you're dealing with fire resistance or immunity), so it becomes a wasted feature
    Both Green-Flame Blade and Twinned Booming Blade require a particular configuration of two opponents which you may not always have. Extra Attack let's you attack the same opponent twice, and doesn't cost an SP for Twinning. It's still useful, including in situations of fire/thunder resistance, as you pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    allows you to eventually get 9th-level spells
    Thing is, I don't want my Sorcadin to cast 9th level spells. That's a full caster thing. I want him to focus on lower-level spells that fit his well-rounded role as melee / tank / support / etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    With your Sorcerer spells you can create plenty of situations where having reach allows you to freely attack a melee opponent without them being able to attack back
    Sure, you could... but I wouldn't want to. Again, the Sorcadin makes an excellent tank, with top of the line AC + shield, and is the opposite of mobile, with no speed boosts and a speed reduction from heavy armor. I'd rather stay in my enemy's face and punish him with an AoO if he leaves.

    Edit: The critique I agree most with is that it requires patience before you get to enjoy all the synergy at level 9 (Pal 6 / Sorc 3), and that Pal 2 might be more attractive in low-level games.
    Last edited by odigity; 2016-10-08 at 09:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    It has two targets, the target of the weapon attack and the target the fire jumps to, so it is ineligible for Twinning.
    Just read the description. I should probably read the PHB in more detail before making a build of two classes I have never played before.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    I don't know what you mean by "Paladin/Sorcerer6/1" (what's what "/1"?) but if you don't have Extra Attack you should have both GFB and BB.
    I meant that if you go for your 6 paladin levels first, and then multiclass into sorcerer (which is how I'd do it if I knew I were playing in a high-level game), would you bother with the SCAG cantrips? Extra attack is such a great ability and I'm wondering if the cantrips are worth investing in.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    That's only because he focuses almost exclusively on pal6/sorcX, which does in fact come online quite a bit later.
    Sorcadin in general is online as early as level 3 (pal2/sorc1), and really gets going at level 5 (pal2/sorc3).
    But this only works of you're just looking at a pally dip, because if you're doing more than that then you want extra attack as soon as possible, which then means you aren't really going strong until level 9.
    I have yet to actually play this character. What is so great about level 5 (pal2/sorc3)? Is it because of the SCAG cantrip boost?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I have yet to actually play this character. What is so great about level 5 (pal2/sorc3)? Is it because of the SCAG cantrip boost?
    With a shortsword:
    Attack: Attack (1d8+STR), Extra Attack (1d8+STR)
    Bonus: Quickened Booming Blade (1d8+STR slashing, 1d8 thunder, an additional 2d8 thunder if they move).

    Or if you also Smite during your Bonus, 1d8+STR slashing, 1d8 thunder, 2d8-5d8 radiant, +1d8 Vs. Fiends/Undead, +2d8 if they move.

    Essentially, the nova is a [4d8+STR, 10d8+STR], which increases another 2d8 at Level 11 and Level 17.

    Team-up with a Diviner Wizard to incentivize the enemy to move away from you - dealing the rest of Booming Blade's damage, giving you a Reaction for another chance to swing for damage, and if you have Sentinel, locking the enemy in place - and to give you the odd Crit from Portent, and you can up to 28d8 (avg: 126) damage from a single attack (for the sake of comparison, the Tarrasque has a little under 700 HP). Even if you don't accomplish that ridiculousness, it can be a real teammate with a Rogue who now has a flanking buddy for Sneak Attack (which does maybe 3/4 of your damage, but consumes no resources).

    The main draw of Level 5 for the cantrips is that you add actual damage dice to the immediate damage of the attack, instead of just CHA.
    Last edited by Ghost Nappa; 2016-10-08 at 11:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    This is a very well-written guide, and one I may use in the future (Sorcadin is on the list of builds I'd like to play).
    Thanks~.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    1) I'd like to see a little more expansion on WHY Aura of Protection is so good as to justify four more levels of Paladin than you otherwise need.
    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    I think he assumed "add Cha bonus to all saves within 10'" to be self-explanatory in terms of how awesome that is.
    Well yeah, odigity summed up my thoughts, but my thoughts may have needed more explanation.

    The Sorcadin is a tank. One of his jobs is to be on the frontlines and be the focus of the enemy attacks.

    Now, regardless of whether he's 2/18 or 6/14, the Sorcadin quite good at defending himself against normal attacks, due to the various methods explained in "Neutral 1" of the "Why be a Sorcadin?" section of the guide (increasing AC and HP, healing, using spells like Mirror Image, etc.) However, without Aura of Protection, he may fail crucial saving throws such as:
    • A dragon's breath that may blast him unconscious if he takes its full force (Sorcadins have a bit low regular HP)
    • WIS saves that render him uselss for a turn or more (Sure, Sorcaadins already have proficiency in WIS saves, but his base WIS itself is either 8 or 10, meaning he will have only a +5 or +6 bonus at maximum. Crippling WIS saves tend to have a DC that's around 15 (Beholders, enemy casters etc.), meaning that with just WIS save proficiency, he will suceed only about half the time - or even less at lower levels. Failing a single WIS save can easily make the Sorcadin become unable to fight for one or two turns, which is enough time for the enemies around him to either smash away at his bit-low core HP, or leave him alone and jump into the party backrow, shredding through the squishy Wizards)
    • CON saves that weaken his capacities as a warrior (poison being the most easy-to-understand example. You can use Lay on Hands to heal them, but it still uses up a turn... also, disadvantage on attacks makes you less powerful as at locking down enemies as well)
    • Concentration saves (Sure, with CON 16 (+3) and advantage via War Caster and a DC 10 save, you will be able to maintain your concentration 91% of the time. This seems good enough on first glance - but if you take damage twice that will become 82%, three times for 75%, four times for 68%, five times for 62%... and so on. Since you're the tank, even with good AC, expect to take damage several times in an encounter. Looking at these percentages, you may see that it's actually not that surprising for a Sorcadin without Aura of Protection to lose his concentration save. Compared to this, with +3 to +5 via Aura of Protection, - let's say +4 here for a build that hasn't gone Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 8 yet - you get +8 and advantage, meaning that you fail the concentration save only 1% of the time per hit. Five hits and you're still gonna be able to maintain concentration 95% of the time. Isn't that wonderful?)


    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    If you take Fire Dragon Sorcerer (hands-down the best choice if your DM doesn't allow the UA Origins) and Greenflame Blade, Extra Attack doesn't actually significantly increase your damage on a Sword and Board build (outside those occasions where you're dealing with fire resistance or immunity), so it becomes a wasted feature, leaving the Aura the only major reason to stay in Paladin that long.
    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Both Green-Flame Blade and Twinned Booming Blade require a particular configuration of two opponents which you may not always have. Extra Attack let's you attack the same opponent twice, and doesn't cost an SP for Twinning. It's still useful, including in situations of fire/thunder resistance, as you pointed out.
    Odigity's summed it up, but I may add that even if there are multiple enemies near you, you may want to use Extra Attack over GFB, such as when a particular monster has devastating attacks, and you want to get rid of him as fast as possible before moving onto the others. GFB is a strong spell, but it has its limitations in how you can't severely damage a singular target - it can only just do good damage to two targets.
    Having more options is always a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    By going Paladin 2 or 3 you are vastly increasing the power of your spellcasting, which, in addition to the obvious benefits of higher level spells and more Sorcery Points earlier, increases the power of your Smites and allows you to eventually get 9th-level spells in a long enough campaign. You say yourself in your guide that Sorcadin doesn't really come online until higher levels, so if you're playing this build in the first place (and using this guide for it) you're probably planning on seeing high levels.
    Well, expanding on "vastly" here, in terms of spell slots, from Caster level 17 (6/14) and level 19 (2/18), you get an extra level 5 and level 6 slot, which can be used for more casting (or converting into sorcery points if you're really that low on them). You also get Wish. The Level 8 Sorcerer spells are not that good IMO, I mean, not as good as the level 7 ones. Perhaps Earthquake, depending on the campaign, but I think that's pretty much it.

    Sure, I can see the benefits, but those benefits are useless if you're incapacitated, or charmed, or otherwise affected by some powerful control effect the enemies have cast upon you. It goes without arguing that being a better caster is a good thing, but my personal opinion is that having the spell slot equivalent of a level 17 caster and having up to level 7 spells is already enough for a Sorcadin, and that if you've got that much firepower, you should focus next on the defensive side to make sure you are more "steady" and "always reliable". Aura of Protection is exactly the ability that does that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    That's only because he focuses almost exclusively on pal6/sorcX, which does in fact come online quite a bit later.
    Sorcadin in general is online as early as level 3 (pal2/sorc1), and really gets going at level 5 (pal2/sorc3).
    But this only works of you're just looking at a pally dip, because if you're doing more than that then you want extra attack as soon as possible, which then means you aren't really going strong until level 9.
    If you're S&B, you do require your DM to be not very fussy with spell component rules for that, though. If he's a really strict DM he will not allow you to cast Sorcerer spells until you get War Caster. (Of course you can use a heavy weapon from levels 1 to 5 to make up for that, but.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    2) I would argue that even without Polearm Master, a glaive or halberd is a better choice for the great weapon build than a greatsword, ESPECIALLY if the UA feat is off the table but maybe even if it's available. With your Sorcerer spells you can create plenty of situations where having reach allows you to freely attack a melee opponent without them being able to attack back (most notably Fly but there are battlefield control options as well). Imo that tactical option is worth more than the +1.5 average damage on the greatsword. In fact, this might make the whip worth mentioning for the finesse build for similar reasons.
    Yes, Glaives and Halberds have good synergy with spells like Fly, but I think one of the main things of a Sorcadin is to lock enemies on the map and try to keep them away from the glass cannons and backrow casters. The method you explains sure makes your Sorcadin better at not taking damage, but what if no one else in your party is willing to keep the enemies at bay? It's much better for you to take the damage instead of having the other casters take the damage. You have wonderful AC, various spells that help you defend better, healing options you can use in-between battles, and many other tricks up your sleeve that more than justify you standing on the frontlines.

    However, regardless of whether your DM acknowledges Blade Mastery or not, Greatsword builds should still carry Halberds for when they need it.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    However, that is a question you can wait until you are a Pal 6 / Sorc 12 to have to try to answer, so I bet in many games it won't matter. :-)
    That really depends on the build progression. Going pally 6, Sor 1 or 2 for the shield spell, a ranged cantrip, and maybe some metamagic, and than continuing to pally 8, is imo a perfectly playable choice. The sorcerer levels add a little bit of versatility and a defensive boost, and sor 2 a nova option with a quickened SCAG cantrip.

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