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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I have yet to actually play this character. What is so great about level 5 (pal2/sorc3)? Is it because of the SCAG cantrip boost?
    At p2/s3 you have all of your main features already. You're fully functional. You don't have a ton of resources to use then with, but you're fully functional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gas
    If you're S&B, you do require your DM to be not very fussy with spell component rules for that, though. If he's a really strict DM he will not allow you to cast Sorcerer spells until you get War Caster. (Of course you can use a heavy weapon from levels 1 to 5 to make up for that, but.)
    AC in light armor with a Dex build, or AC in medium armor (if you haven't dumped Dex) is 15 or 16. That's completely respectable for level 5. Potential +2 for shield of faith, potential +5 for shield spell, potential +2 for an actual shield, potential +1 for Defense style.
    That perfectly respectable 15/16 can be as high as 26 if you need it to be (24 without an actual shield).
    You don't have a ton of spell slots yet, and even if you do your spending some/alot of them on smites. If you're trying/needing to act in a standard caster capacity, why are you standing in the front? Hang back for one round, cast your spell, then move in.
    War Caster isn't required at all, it just makes things easier. Sure, warcaster is optimal, but you don't need a lenient DM if you just play smart. You'll get warcaster at 6, and that's when mobs' attack bonuses start to make you really want it.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2016-10-09 at 08:02 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I've basically 'relearned' my Sorc spells known to 2 spells of 1st & 2nd level. Focusing on what boosts my combat abilities or covers traditional gaps for martials; Shield, Burn hands, Blur, Enhance ability.
    Knowing more 3rd & 4th level spells broadens my repetoir of tricks; Fly, Haste, Melf's meteors, Grtr Invis.


    Greater invis n Blur basically seem to accomplish the same thing; disadvantage on attack. Both require concentration.
    Resource wise, you'll always have more 2nd than 4th level spell slots.
    Granted, Invisibility reduces opportunity attacks, but how difficult is a passive perception check on a platemail dressed target.
    I do like the Mirror image spell for the 'no concentration' bonus.
    But seems to me it can be knocked down fairly quickly facing multiple attackers, or a creature with multiple attacks.

    I'm not the primary damage dealer.
    With an assassin, champion n bearbarian in the group, a twinned Haste or Grtr invis is just whipped cream on the cake of boss fights.

    Tides of Chaos & Bend luck are GREAT little bits to throw in the gears of situations.
    Like having Bless or a minor Lucky feat as a class option.
    Last edited by cZak; 2016-10-09 at 12:59 PM. Reason: Expansion to cover spell selections
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Going to be trying this build out soon, probably in Adventure League. I'll let ya know how it goes!

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    Well yeah, odigity summed up my thoughts, but my thoughts may have needed more explanation.

    The Sorcadin is a tank. One of his jobs is to be on the frontlines and be the focus of the enemy attacks.
    This is where I actually take issue with many of your points to follow. I disagree, based on your own default build. The Sorcadin is not a tank, the Sorcadin is a BRUISER. The Sorcadin can take some punishment but lacks Sentinel (and lacks the extra ASIs to take it) and is thus unable to force enemies to focus on them. Sure, they can take away the capability for an opponent to attack at all, but then that's still not really tanking, that's battlefield control, and there's no reason for you to be worried about soaking up attacks in that situation. Booming Blade helps in some scenarios, but not all, and costs you some of your damage regardless.

    I am currently playing an 8th-level Paladin in my home campaign. I am WELL AWARE of how good a feature Aura of Protection is. Between the basic Paladin kit and Resilient (Constitution) I only fail saves when our DM targets Dexterity (or roll garbage, but nothing can really save you from that), since I don't have proficiency and have a negative Dex modifier. My point is that it isn't "two spell levels behind" good in my opinion. (Note that caps are for emphasis; I'm not "yelling" at you or anything.)

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Both Green-Flame Blade and Twinned Booming Blade require a particular configuration of two opponents which you may not always have. Extra Attack let's you attack the same opponent twice, and doesn't cost an SP for Twinning. It's still useful, including in situations of fire/thunder resistance, as you pointed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    Odigity's summed it up, but I may add that even if there are multiple enemies near you, you may want to use Extra Attack over GFB, such as when a particular monster has devastating attacks, and you want to get rid of him as fast as possible before moving onto the others. GFB is a strong spell, but it has its limitations in how you can't severely damage a singular target - it can only just do good damage to two targets.
    Having more options is always a good thing.
    Let's be clear: I am not contesting that Extra Attack is significantly better for the great weapon build. Just sword and board. Let's look at a level 8 standard Sword and Board Sorcadin, with Strength 16 and Dueling style:

    2 attacks for 1d8+5, for a total of 2d8+10 assuming both hit.

    Now, let's look at Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6, with Red, Gold, or Brass Dragon Ancestry (so fire). Nothing in Greenflame Blade's description says you HAVE to have a secondary target, and you're both arguing about focusing fire, so let's break down that damage. Strength 16, Charisma 16, Dueling style (sub-optimal, but for comparison's sake):

    1 attack for 1d8+5 + 1d8 (Greenflame Blade) + 3 (Charisma from Elemental Affinity) for a total of 2d8+8 on a hit.

    That's a two point damage difference. And while admittedly the Sorcadin's damage is a little less consistent since it's all focused into one attack, they can also basically Action Surge for two Sorcery points (which they'll always have four more of than a same level Paladin 6 / Sorcerer X), and they have more, higher-level slots to burn on Divine Smite when they really need them. Outside that case of resistance or immunity that's a wash to me, and even in that uncommon scenario they just switch to Booming Blade to minimize their lost damage. And when Greenflame Blade's damage scales again at level 11, then the Pal 2 Sorcadin actually comes out ahead until the Pal 6 Sorcadin gets Elemental Affinity at 12, at which point they're doing the same thing as the Pal 2 Sorcadin and Extra Attack becomes a largely pointless feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    Well, expanding on "vastly" here, in terms of spell slots, from Caster level 17 (6/14) and level 19 (2/18), you get an extra level 5 and level 6 slot, which can be used for more casting (or converting into sorcery points if you're really that low on them). You also get Wish. The Level 8 Sorcerer spells are not that good IMO, I mean, not as good as the level 7 ones. Perhaps Earthquake, depending on the campaign, but I think that's pretty much it.
    The Pal 2 Sorcadin is not just ENDING with better spellcasting; they're getting every new level of Sorcerer spells FOUR LEVELS EARLIER than the Pal 6 Sorcadin. You're making the claim that having +Cha to saves and 1st level Sorcerer spells is so much better than 3rd level Sorcerer spells , or any other 2-level gap, that the Pal 2 option doesn't even deserve analysis in your guide. (I'll note here that I consider the secondary Sorcerer features, like extra sorcery points, new metamagic options, and Sorcerous Origin features like Dragon Wings coming sooner a wash with the Paladin 3-6 features, since I've just established above that Extra Attack isn't worth that much.)

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Thing is, I don't want my Sorcadin to cast 9th level spells. That's a full caster thing. I want him to focus on lower-level spells that fit his well-rounded role as melee / tank / support / etc.
    And if you want to do that that's totally fine, but a guide like this should focus on what is objectively mechanically good, not what feels right to any one person. Also, Foresight is an amazingly gishy 9th-level spell; though it doesn't really hold a candle to Wish's utility, there is a happy medium.

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    Sure, you could... but I wouldn't want to. Again, the Sorcadin makes an excellent tank, with top of the line AC + shield, and is the opposite of mobile, with no speed boosts and a speed reduction from heavy armor. I'd rather stay in my enemy's face and punish him with an AoO if he leaves.
    Again, I don't think the Sorcadin is a tank. Disengage works fine on them unless they've used Booming Blade preemptively (and even then, a couple d8s of thunder damage is often worth getting to a softer target), and even Booming Blade won't protect other melee allies. Also, speed penalties in heavy armor aren't a thing anymore. Provided you're proficient and have high enough Strength, the only thing wearing heavy armor penalizes you for is Stealth checks. Plus, spells like Haste and Misty Step in fact make you EXTREMELY mobile.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    Let's be clear: I am not contesting that Extra Attack is significantly better for the great weapon build. Just sword and board. Let's look at a level 8 standard Sword and Board Sorcadin, with Strength 16 and Dueling style:

    2 attacks for 1d8+5, for a total of 2d8+10 assuming both hit.

    Now, let's look at Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6, with Red, Gold, or Brass Dragon Ancestry (so fire). Nothing in Greenflame Blade's description says you HAVE to have a secondary target, and you're both arguing about focusing fire, so let's break down that damage. Strength 16, Charisma 16, Dueling style (sub-optimal, but for comparison's sake):

    1 attack for 1d8+5 + 1d8 (Greenflame Blade) + 3 (Charisma from Elemental Affinity) for a total of 2d8+8 on a hit.

    That's a two point damage difference. And while admittedly the Sorcadin's damage is a little less consistent since it's all focused into one attack, they can also basically Action Surge for two Sorcery points (which they'll always have four more of than a same level Paladin 6 / Sorcerer X), and they have more, higher-level slots to burn on Divine Smite when they really need them. Outside that case of resistance or immunity that's a wash to me, and even in that uncommon scenario they just switch to Booming Blade to minimize their lost damage. And when Greenflame Blade's damage scales again at level 11, then the Pal 2 Sorcadin actually comes out ahead until the Pal 6 Sorcadin gets Elemental Affinity at 12, at which point they're doing the same thing as the Pal 2 Sorcadin and Extra Attack becomes a largely pointless feature.
    I thought the main draw of Extra Attack was that it let you make two Attacks with no cost (allowing you more opportunities for some smite damage on crits) with the potential for a third nova attack if you so chose, and even then, it's not the reason you're spending so much time in Paladin. It's a nice little always on bonus that comes with the higher saves and better health.



    As a total aside, the more I think about it though, I don't see how any race beats Vuman for either build (2/18 and 6/14), since not only do you not lose an ASI/Fea opportunity (you still get 5), you're essentially getting one of them 18 levels earlier.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    This is where I actually take issue with many of your points to follow. I disagree, based on your own default build. The Sorcadin is not a tank, the Sorcadin is a BRUISER.
    See, mine is mostly control / support.
    That's the issue that I have with this guide. It takes one possible role with one possible build and assumes everyone will do the same.
    Maybe that's one of the options, but that shouldn't comprise the entire guide.

    For reference, here's one of the Sorcadins that I have played:
    Spoiler
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    Here's what I did, copy/pasted from a text file I had. We got a free feat at level 1, I took war caster right away. You'd have to adjust the cantrips and lvl1 pally spells to account for not raising Cha at 6.

    27 pts
    Str 13(5) - or 10 if allowed
    Dex 15(9)+1=16
    Con 13(5)+1= 14
    Int 8
    Wis 9(1) - or 12 if 10str allowed
    Cha 14(7)+2= 16

    Half Elf: darkvision, fey ancestry, skill versatility (Stealth and Investigation), languages (common, elvish, +one)
    Urban Bounty Hunter: Insight & Perception (instead of Stealth), thieves' tools, one instrument or gaming set, clothes, pouch with 20gp
    Free feat: War Caster

    1. paladin 1 of Tymora
    - 10+con HP each level
    - equipment: one martial weapon (rapier or scimitar) & a shield, one simple weapon (dagger), explorer's pack, studded leather armor, holy symbol // thieves' tools, gaming set (dice), clothes, pouch with 20gp
    - divine sense, lay on hands
    - Proficiencies:
    --- all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields
    --- Wisdom and Charisma saves
    --- thieves' tools, one gaming set (dice), acrobatics, insight, investigation, perception, persuasion, stealth

    2. sorcerer 1 favored soul of Tymora (Trickery)
    - d6+con HP each level
    - chosen of the gods
    - cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
    - spells: charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep (later swap)

    3. p2
    - defense style, spellcasting, divine smite
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep

    4. s2
    - font of magic
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, sleep

    5. s3
    - metamagic: quicken & twinned
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, (sleep swapped for web)
    --- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web

    6. s4
    - ASI (+2cha = 18)
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion,ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
    --- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, suggestion, web

    7. s5
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
    --- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, (suggestion swapped for fly), web
    --- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fly, haste

    8. s6
    - extra attack
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
    --- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
    --- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste

    9. s7
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
    --- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
    --- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
    --- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // wall of fire

    10. s8
    - ASI (+2dex = 18)
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, fire bolt, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
    --- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
    --- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
    --- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire

    11. s9
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
    --- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
    --- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
    --- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
    --- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster

    12. s10
    - metamagic: heightened, quicken, twinned
    - current spells:
    --- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
    --- level 1: bless, cure wounds, divine favor, searing smite, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
    --- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
    --- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
    --- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
    --- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster, wall of stone
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2016-10-12 at 09:36 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Reosoul View Post
    Going to be trying this build out soon, probably in Adventure League. I'll let ya know how it goes!
    Nice! Thanks~

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    This is where I actually take issue with many of your points to follow. I disagree, based on your own default build. The Sorcadin is not a tank, the Sorcadin is a BRUISER. The Sorcadin can take some punishment but lacks Sentinel (and lacks the extra ASIs to take it) and is thus unable to force enemies to focus on them. Sure, they can take away the capability for an opponent to attack at all, but then that's still not really tanking, that's battlefield control, and there's no reason for you to be worried about soaking up attacks in that situation. Booming Blade helps in some scenarios, but not all, and costs you some of your damage regardless.
    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    See, mine is mostly control / support.
    That's the issue that I have with this guide. It takes one possible role with one possible build and assumes everyone will do the same.
    Maybe that's one of the options, but that shouldn't comprise the entire guide.
    These posts have actually been extremely helpful in how they helped me see a new possibility. This is because I have probably been talking too much from personal experience. (I know, it's near impossible to talk based on anything that is not personal experience, but anyways.)

    My builds utilized Champion Challenge (Oath of the Crown), Careful+Web and other stuff to help be a good frontline defender. Sure, I also did the control/support that DivisibleByZero mentioned, but I'm pretty sure my build and DBZ (that abbreviation sounds like something else) 's build are pretty different characters if you look at how they move.

    And I hadn't put much thought into what non-tankish builds will be like. That's why I didn't think 2/18 will be a very good choice. It's also probably why DBZ mentioned this guide is currently incomplete.

    I am going to create a new section about paladin and sorcerer levels, but apart from that I think I will also make another section which will go over the jobs of a Sorcadin, and explain what options are good for each job. Thanks for the insight!

    (BTW, "Sorcadin is not a tank" is an overstatement - just like my previous mindset that Sorcadins are tanks are not always the case. The truth is that Sorcadins can become tanks if they want, but don't have to be to be strong - a conclusion I think both I and DBZ can finally agree upon.

    Champion Challenge is a wonderful ability when it comes to defending the backrow. As explained in sample builds, Careful Spell+Web and Booming Blade (Reaction version)+War Caster also creates an extremely effective lockdown combo that also severely debuffs your enemies. BB's main job is to use together with War Caster for menacing OAs.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    Let's be clear: I am not contesting that Extra Attack is significantly better for the great weapon build. Just sword and board. Let's look at a level 8 standard Sword and Board Sorcadin, with Strength 16 and Dueling style:
    -snip-
    Well, I did similar math in my guide, but I'm pretty damn sure GFB requires the flames to leap to a different target, so it's not true that GFB can always damage as well as Extra Attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by GFB
    On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it.
    Extra Attack increases your options and improves your DPR in situations where GFB doesn't work as well as it should (which are common). While it's most definitely not worth taking 3 Paladin levels on its own, it is a nice "extra option" that you can count in the reasons to go Paladin 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    The Pal 2 Sorcadin is not just ENDING with better spellcasting; they're getting every new level of Sorcerer spells FOUR LEVELS EARLIER than the Pal 6 Sorcadin. You're making the claim that having +Cha to saves and 1st level Sorcerer spells is so much better than 3rd level Sorcerer spells , or any other 2-level gap, that the Pal 2 option doesn't even deserve analysis in your guide. (I'll note here that I consider the secondary Sorcerer features, like extra sorcery points, new metamagic options, and Sorcerous Origin features like Dragon Wings coming sooner a wash with the Paladin 3-6 features, since I've just established above that Extra Attack isn't worth that much.)
    Well, I actually already did correct my mistakes there. Though I haven't edited the original guide I have written in the comment section that I will create a new section which analyzes the various Paladin/Sorcerer ratios. I will also edit the original guide to make it less subjective and more objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar14 View Post
    Also, Foresight is an amazingly gishy 9th-level spell; though it doesn't really hold a candle to Wish's utility, there is a happy medium.
    I know. Foresight is an amazingly gishy 9th-level spell. It's really wonderful to have. It's a blast. I want it.

    ...Sorcerers don't have it...

    They probably thought Foresight+Twinned Spell would be too much. And I think they're right. But still, it's a really sad thing for Sorcadins.

    Bladelocks get Foresight at level 18, so that's one thing they excel at compared to Sorcadins.

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    For reference, here's one of the Sorcadins that I have played:
    -snip-
    ...Oh my god, thank you! This sort of stuff is wonderful. Truly helpful! It really helps me understand what the other people want and create for themselves.

    Thanks for the input and all the comments!
    Last edited by Gastronomie; 2016-10-10 at 07:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    See, mine is mostly control / support.
    That's the issue that I have with this guide. It takes one possible role with one possible build and assumes everyone will do the same.
    Maybe that's one of the options, but that shouldn't comprise the entire guide.

    For reference, here's one of the Sorcadins that I have played:
    Spoiler
    Show
    <snip>see above
    Just a few quick questions.
    1) what is the "//" notation in the spells memorized section for each level?
    2) Have you found that the defensive combat option to be worth it? Clearly this build is less dependent on weapon damage than, say, a fighter, but I still feel ambivalent about the option. What's you in-play experience?
    3) How would things change if you didn't have SCAG options?
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2016-10-10 at 08:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    1) what is the "//" notation in the spells memorized section for each level?
    2) Have you found that the defensive combat option to be worth it? Clearly this build is less dependent on weapon damage than, say, a fighter, but I still feel ambivalent about the option. What's you in-play experience?
    3) How would things change if you didn't have SCAG options?
    1) I think the // divides "Paladin Spells", "Favored Soul Spells", and "Sorcerer Spells".
    2) I am not DBZ, but I have found it to be worth it in my builds. I think it's better than Dueling for Sorcadins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    1) I think the // divides "Paladin Spells", "Favored Soul Spells", and "Sorcerer Spells".
    2) I am not DBZ, but I have found it to be worth it in my builds. I think it's better than Dueling for Sorcadins.
    Those are the answers that I would have given. Beat me to it
    If you quote me and ask me questions,
    and I continue to not respond,
    it's probably because I have
    you on my Ignore list.
    Congratulations.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Anything regarding not having SCAG options? We are going to play for a year or more without it, to see if just core is fine for us. Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade seem to be keystone gish spells for multi-target damage and battlefield control. I can imagine the game being quite different if they aren't on the table.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Anything regarding not having SCAG options? We are going to play for a year or more without it, to see if just core is fine for us. Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade seem to be keystone gish spells for multi-target damage and battlefield control. I can imagine the game being quite different if they aren't on the table.
    First off, Extra Attack becomes a must. So it's either Paladin 6 or higher, or Favored Soul.

    Draconic Sorcerer will become a weaker option.

    It becomes a bit harder to operate the Paladin as a defensive frontline warrior, since its opportunity attacks are less devastating.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Cool. It will be Pal6, since Favored Soul is even less core. As are most options other than Draconic (and wild magic, which I've yet to have heard anyone say they've done except for flavor reasons). I'm thinking Dex build, picking up Draconic sorcerer for +1 AC compared to studded at level 3, but probably going back to Paladin until Pal6/Sor1. The Defensive vs. Duelist is a real tricky one, as Dragon Sorc1 + (let's say) Dex 16 + shield is AC 18. It certainly makes me consider Dueling.
    It also makes me consider my taking +2 Dex as my first ASI, and holding off on War Caster until higher level. With non-SCAG spells, it is feasible to use exclusively paladin spells and smites (in combat), and pretty much ignore sorcerer spells (Just making it a faster advancement mechanism) until higher levels). Sure, losing shield isn't fun, but the +2 dex is +1 AC, and +1 hit, +1 damage, +1 Dex saves, +1 initiative... The only annoying thing about that idea is that you are pretty much dipping into sorcerer for the +1 AC and faster spell advancement well up until level 10 or so (when you pick up your second ASI and War Caster, as well as when level 2 sorcerer spells with level 4 slots begin to make more impact on the game than being a double-attacking smite machine).

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    TL;DR. I sincerely apologise if this has been adressed before.

    I realise it's not strictly speaking rules as written, but would you guys allow Twinned Elemental Weapon? It's a range of touch, and has only one target by default. RAW Twin Metamagic is written so that the spell must target a creature, but would it be broken to allow target be a weapon; or rather, two weapons if twinned?
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-10-10 at 01:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I'd allow it at my table. Not all DMs would, so your mileage may vary, but I would.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    TL;DR. I sincerely apologise if this has been adressed before.

    I realise it's not strictly speaking rules as written, but would you guys allow Twinned Elemental Weapon? It's a range of touch, and has only one target by default. RAW Twin Metamagic is written so that the spell must target a creature, but would it be broken to allow target be a weapon; or rather, two weapons if twinned?
    If Elemental Weapon is allowed, I'd rather go with Magic Weapon though. Less of a spell slot, less sorcery points to Twin.

    But I think I'd rather use Bless, to be honest.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I'd rather guides stick to RAW, but this is a discussion, emright?

    Anyway, I'm loving this character type. It's very versatile, and if you go pal2/sorc x, you get a real feel of the character from level 3 on. This is where all the other single classed guys start getting their feels too.

    I enjoy playing versatile characters who can have an impact in many situations.

    The paladin 2/ sorcerer X helps in melee and ranged combat, in 1 v 1 and 1 v crowds, and they excel in any social situation.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Anyway, I'm loving this character type. It's very versatile, and if you go pal2/sorc x, you get a real feel of the character from level 3 on. This is where all the other single classed guys start getting their feels too.

    ...

    The paladin 2/ sorcerer X helps in melee and ranged combat, in 1 v 1 and 1 v crowds, and they excel in any social situation.
    Yup, this is what I'm doing. I feel like this build "unlocks" at level 3 as well, which is useful when you can't start at higher levels. Progression:

    Paladin 1: Pretty boring, divine sense & lay on hands, but heavy armour is the best, although RAW you will start with chain mail and not plate which is what you want really (mithril, if you can get it, so you're not always sneaking at disadvantage). I'll pick up Warcaster eventually so not having constitution saving throws isn't the end of the world. Buy a shield and one handed weapon (longsword, warhammer, battle axe, etc) for 18 AC.

    Ability focuses: Strength, charisma, constitution, wisdom. Lucky rolls land me an array of 18, 8, 14, 12, 14, 17 when going half-elf.

    Skills: With the urban bounty hunter background, I have Athletics (+6), Deception (+5), Insight (+4), Perception (+4), Persuasion (+5), Religion (+3). Drop religion for something more useful if you want but I like the flavour. The only shame here is that there is no way of being good at stealth unless you fancy dumping Int or Wis (my DM is funny about that for RP reasons though).

    Paladin 2: Divine smite (using your two level one spell slots, this is +2d8 radiant damage on two melee attacks per day) and Fighting Style (I took defence for +1 AC so that's 19 now). You also get spellcasting - I took bless, cure wounds, searing smite and thunderous smite. I don't expect to use these spells much.

    Paladin 2, sorcerer 1: This is where things really kick off! Favoured Soul. Taking Favoured Soul means we get a second attack at sorcerer level 6 (character level 8) and reach a higher number of spell slots and sorcery points. This is the primary difference between my build and Gastronomie's - I don't trust my party to stay within 10' of me and benefit from Aura of Protection, and really that's the only reason to take more than 2 or 3 levels in Paladin IMHO. Maybe I'll take a third level in paladin later, to grab an Oath, but I certainly won't be going to Paladin 5 and getting the extra attack there, which makes this my preferred sorcerer origin.

    Favoured Soul also gives you some extra spell selection flexibility - Gastronomie has a good section on this but I went for War as that fits with my PC fluff. Trickery also looks good.

    Spells: Cantrips: Booming blade (which you can use smite on, btw), shocking grasp, chill touch and minor illusion. I think this is a nice range.
    Level 1: Shield and anything else. Just pick something fun, none of them are that good so it doesn't matter. Swap this second level 1 spell out ASAP.

    Paladin 2, Favoured Soul 2. Font of Magic. Great. Also: sorcery points.
    Spells: Another level 1 spell. Woo. I took disguise self, and might use it for fun. In terms of divine smite, you can now do 4x +2d8 and 2x 3d8 extra damage on melee attacks.

    Paladin 2, Favoured Soul 3. Metamagic! Finally! Pick up Quickened and Twinned spell for many hi-jinks, and then choose Mirror Image and Hold Person as your level 2 spells. Swap one of your spare level 1 spells for Suggestion. Divine smite possibilities are now 4x +2d8 and 3x +3d8.

    Although you do quickly run out of resources, casting twinned hold person is very powerful, or using quickened booming blade + divine smite, followed by a melee attack + divine smite gives you 1d8+3d8+ability, plus 1d8+3d8+ability, which is 8d8+8 at 18 strength, or 44 damage at 3rd level. Quicken Shocking Grasp and you will never provoke AOs again.

    Paladin 2, Favoured Soul 4. Pick up Warcaster, obviously, and know that Divine Smite can now do 4x +2d8, 3x +3d8 and 2x +4d8. Swap your last spare level 1 spell for something good from the level 2 selection - Enlarge/Reduce, Blindness/Deafness and Misty Step are all valid choices.

    Really, you just progress as a sorcerer from there, picking up sorcery points and spell slots (for divine smite). I'm not convinced my current game will get much past level 5 so I'll consider next steps once I reach that point...

    ps some of my maths will be wrong. it is late.
    Last edited by MildMedium; 2016-10-13 at 05:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Just wanted to add, I'm really not a fan of the Pal 2/Sorc X build...I always go to 6th Pal.....but if I were to stick with only 2 levels of pally then I would definitely work in at least 1 level of Undying Lock...the char bonus dam to radiant and fire would be just to juicy to pass up.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Byke View Post
    Just wanted to add, I'm really not a fan of the Pal 2/Sorc X build...I always go to 6th Pal.....but if I were to stick with only 2 levels of pally then I would definitely work in at least 1 level of Undying Lock...the char bonus dam to radiant and fire would be just to juicy to pass up.
    Undying Patron (SCAG) and Undying Light Patron (Currently UA) are two different things; the former being an entity related to undeath while the latter is the entity related to Light.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Undying Patron (SCAG) and Undying Light Patron (Currently UA) are two different things; the former being an entity related to undeath while the latter is the entity related to Light.
    Correct my bad...Undying light Patron is what I meant to say.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Byke View Post
    Correct my bad...Undying light Patron is what I meant to say.
    You get a bonus to any fire damage at level 1?

    That's insane. Where can I find this?
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    You get a bonus to any fire damage at level 1?

    That's insane. Where can I find this?
    https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...Characters.pdf

    **Edit** Fire and Radiant so x 2 char + Str or Dex when you smite with GFB on the primary target
    Last edited by Byke; 2016-10-14 at 12:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    You get a bonus to any fire damage at level 1?

    That's insane. Where can I find this?
    I agree. I've been ignoring UA because I only have access to AL games, and because I assume it's not as balanced as official releases, but that info made me go hunting:

    https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...Characters.pdf

    Warlock Patron: The Undying Light

    Radiant Soul

    Starting at 1st level, your link to the Positive Plane allows you to serve as a conduit for radiant energy. You have resistance to radiant damage, and when you cast a spell that deals radiant damage or fire damage, you add your Charisma modifier to that damage. Additionally, you know the sacred flame and light cantrips and can cast them at will. They donít count against your number of cantrips known.
    That's ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by odigity View Post
    I agree. I've been ignoring UA because I only have access to AL games, and because I assume it's not as balanced as official releases, but that info made me go hunting:

    https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...Characters.pdf



    That's ridiculous.
    Yeah, this article was from the deep end of badly worded really strong material. In itself the feature wouldn't be that bad if it was limited to Warlock spells only, but as it's been written it enables broken combinations with certain classes (especially Paladin).

    But as I've said before, pretty much every class is capable of overpowered results if a player deliberately tries to make it happen.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-10-14 at 01:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Byke View Post
    https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...Characters.pdf

    **Edit** Fire and Radiant so x 2 char + Str or Dex when you smite with GFB on the primary target
    Why would it add to smites?

    It says you add your CHA modifier to *spells* that deal radiant and fire damage. Smiting is not casting a spell.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Why would it add to smites?

    It says you add your CHA modifier to *spells* that deal radiant and fire damage. Smiting is not casting a spell.
    Yes, it doesn't add directly to Divine Smite, but with Divine Favor (paladin & war domain only) and Green-Flame Blade the total devastation is quite enormous.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-10-14 at 01:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Yes, it doesn't add directly to Divine Smite, but with Divine Favor (paladin & war domain only) and Green-Flame Blade the total devastation is quite enormous.

    There is also Branding and Blinding smite....several ways to add radiant spell damage. But I should have made that clearer in my post.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Byke View Post
    There is also Branding and Blinding smite....several ways to add radiant spell damage. But I should have made that clearer in my post.
    That is true. Just couldn't remember the names of those smite spells, as they are generally quite rubbish. Divine Favor is much better since it lasts for the whole duration and doesn't blow off from first hit.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-10-14 at 01:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    That is true. Just couldn't remember the names of those smite spells, as they are generally quite rubbish. Divine Favor is much better since it lasts for the whole duration and doesn't blow off from first hit.
    Blinding has some merits and I forgot that my point was for only 2 levels of Pally, so they wouldn't have access to them anyways...but divine favors works well.

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