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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    So a Paladin 2/Warlock 1 (Undying light)/Sorcerer 17? That seems like a pretty strong build and actually would be able to do quite a bit with just firebolts, you still get 9th level casting but the ASI hit sucks..
    Last edited by Quintessence; 2016-10-15 at 07:54 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
    So a Paladin 2/Warlock 1 (Undying light)/Sorcerer 17? That seems like a pretty strong build and actually would be able to do quite a bit with just firebolts, you still get 9th level casting but the ASI hit sucks..
    It's only 1 less ASI than pure builds, which is the same number of ASIs as a 2/18, 3/17 or 6/14 build get, though. Nothing to really grieve over. And a build that heavy in Sorcerer would need only 20 CHA and do whatever he wants with the rest of his ASIs.

    The Undying Light patron is the epitome of terrible design and I would never allow it in my games, but I still included it in my guide.

    Currently finishing up "Level Ratios of Paladin and Sorcerer" and "party roles".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    It's only 1 less ASI than pure builds, which is the same number of ASIs as a 2/18, 3/17 or 6/14 build get, though. Nothing to really grieve over. And a build that heavy in Sorcerer would need only 20 CHA and do whatever he wants with the rest of his ASIs.

    The Undying Light patron is the epitome of terrible design and I would never allow it in my games, but I still included it in my guide.

    Currently finishing up "Level Ratios of Paladin and Sorcerer" and "party roles".
    Keep up the good work my man!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    It's only 1 less ASI than pure builds, which is the same number of ASIs as a 2/18, 3/17 or 6/14 build get, though. Nothing to really grieve over. And a build that heavy in Sorcerer would need only 20 CHA and do whatever he wants with the rest of his ASIs.

    The Undying Light patron is the epitome of terrible design and I would never allow it in my games, but I still included it in my guide.

    Currently finishing up "Level Ratios of Paladin and Sorcerer" and "party roles".
    Awesome, the guide was definitely worth the wait and very well done. I think the gifs add some personality to it also :)

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
    I think the gifs add some personality to it also :)
    Yeah I personally love the gifs. First read-through was on my iphone, and it had no problems loading/viewing them, fyi.

    And also, awesome guide. After reading it, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna play a sword-and-board vengeance paladin / wild mage sorc as my next character for max fun.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post

    The Undying Light patron is the epitome of terrible design and I would never allow it in my games, but I still included it in my guide.
    Don't want to pollute the thread of UA class discussions. I will agree that Undying Light patron is a little to front loaded, but I appreciate the attempt at introducing a benevolent patron and healing into the the warlock class. Terrible is a little to harsh :)

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Awesome mother effing guide.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    What kinds of magic items do you think would most benefit this multiclass?

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Keep up the good work my man!
    Quote Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
    Awesome, the guide was definitely worth the wait and very well done. I think the gifs add some personality to it also :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Yeah I personally love the gifs. First read-through was on my iphone, and it had no problems loading/viewing them, fyi.

    And also, awesome guide. After reading it, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna play a sword-and-board vengeance paladin / wild mage sorc as my next character for max fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by krunchyfrogg View Post
    Awesome mother effing guide.
    Thanks guys~~!
    Quote Originally Posted by Byke View Post
    Don't want to pollute the thread of UA class discussions. I will agree that Undying Light patron is a little to front loaded, but I appreciate the attempt at introducing a benevolent patron and healing into the the warlock class. Terrible is a little to harsh :)
    Well, perhaps variety in tone was a thing, but my opinion still stands that its "design" is simply not thought-out well enough to be ever published - or even posted on the net as an semi-official article, because anyone can see on first glance that it needs revising. If the level 1 ability was a level 14 one instead it wouldn't have been "terrible" design. As it is, it's simply too overpowered to be ever allowed entry in my games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
    What kinds of magic items do you think would most benefit this multiclass?
    Anything, really, but off the top of my head:

    • If given the opportunity to choose the magic weapons you obtain, S&B builds should prioritize AC and saving throws over offense. For instance, if you were able to get either a +1 Longsword or a +1 Shield, I would take the Shield. In theory, +3 Plate, +3 Shield and the Defense feat add up to be 27 AC. Stuff like Ring of Protection and Cloak of Displacement make it even better. Holy Avenger does both of these jobs.
    • Stuff like the Staff of Power and Staff of Lordly Might that can be used as +X weapons that can be held in one hand, on top of a lot of arcane bonuses.
    • Obviously, for GWM builds, +X greatswords are top priority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    Anything, really, but off the top of my head:

    • If given the opportunity to choose the magic weapons you obtain, S&B builds should prioritize AC and saving throws over offense. For instance, if you were able to get either a +1 Longsword or a +1 Shield, I would take the Shield. In theory, +3 Plate, +3 Shield and the Defense feat fighting style* add up to be 27 AC. Stuff like Ring of Protection and Cloak of Displacement make it even better. Holy Avenger does both of these jobs.
    • Stuff like the Staff of Power and Staff of Lordly Might that can be used as +X weapons that can be held in one hand, on top of a lot of arcane bonuses.
    • Obviously, for GWM builds, +X greatswords are top priority.
    *Fixed it for you.
    Also, imho staves that act as +X quarterstaves are rather good for PAM builds. Sometimes (read: more often than not) the base damage die of the weapon doesn't matter much.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-10-28 at 06:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    *Fixed it for you.
    Also, imho staves that act as +X quarterstaves are rather good for PAM builds. Sometimes (read: more often than not) the base damage die of the weapon doesn't matter much.
    True. DPR on hit <<<<< accuracy and extra options.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    removed for RAW
    Last edited by Ennio; 2016-10-31 at 10:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ennio View Post
    • Attributes in order: 8, 16, 14, 10, 12, 16 on stats after half-elf. This was a 27 pt buy.
    • Half elf seems the most obvious race choice.
    • Level 3: Paladin 2, Sorc 1 - took paladin first since I wouldn't have the req to multi-in later.
    Without DM handwaving you don't have the reqs to multiclass at all. You need to meet the reqs of both classes, and you don't have the Str.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2016-10-31 at 09:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ennio View Post
    [*]Level 3: Paladin 2, Sorc 1 - took paladin first since I wouldn't have the req to multi-in later.
    To clarify on what DivisibleByZero said, you have to meet the requirements listed in the Multiclassing description for both classes to multiclass. In other words, you have to meet the paladin multiclass requirements to multiclass OUT as well as IN.

    You can definitely ask your DM to houserule, as there isn't a good reason to not allow multiclassing dex-based paladins if you allow multiclassing dex-based fighters (which the rules do allow). OTOH, paladin/sorc seems to be claimed to be one of the best builds in the game, there's also not a lot of reason to make playing one easier.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Oops I'll remove that build since it doesn't meet the raw then and thus isn't particularly helpful here lol.

    Might repost if I adjust the stats to 13, 16, 14, 8, 8, 16. Wasn't a handwave, more an oversight so not sure if DM will care when I mention it. Į\_(ツ)_/Į
    Last edited by Ennio; 2016-10-31 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Played my sorcadin for the first time last night (Pal 2 / Wild Sorc 1), and it was AWESOME. Most of the party was L5, but with so many options (blasting, single-target smackdowns, party support), I never felt like a 5th wheel.

    I also happened to get a necklace of fireballs. Can't wait to do a quickened fireball > necklace fireball 1-turn opening combo once I get third-level sorc spells.

    The guide is right that when it comes to fun, Wild Sorc is gold. RP with the party was a blast after I introduced myself by saying that my magic could be a bit ... unpredictable. I had one wild magic surge in the middle of a tough fight, and lucked out on the roll (summoned a unicorn). The whole party seemed to hold their breath on the roll, and then when the unicorn appeared, they cheered. It wouldn't let me hop on its back, but it did kick some Fire Giant butt. And thinking through the positioning and spell planning to maximize potential surge effects added a really interesting dimension to combat.

    Dunno if you plan to expand the guide to talk more about wild sorc, but if you do, here are a few initial thoughts:
    • Expeditious Retreat is a great choice for Wild; maybe even gold. Positioning is important if you want to get as many enemies and as few allies in range for some of the AOE surge possibilities. ER allows you to, at the beginning of the fight, use your base movement to optimally position for a surge, then cast it, possibly surge, then dash same turn to a striking position, and you still have your action to attack/cantrip.
    • You rate Bend Luck as blue; while I don't have it yet, just thinking through the possibilities, I believe it will be higher. Just the fact alone that it makes the Hold Person/crit smite combo more likely to land by being able to mess with the target's saving throw after the roll ... man that's good. Plus all the other uses.


    I'll report back if I have any other revelations once I have some more play under my belt.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Anyone have thoughts on the Volo's races interactions with Sorcadin builds?

    The Aasimar Scourge and Fallen seem like a godsend (heh). Too bad since I play AL I wouldn't also be able to use the SCAG cantrips (so no quickened booming blade) which seems like too much of a loss.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Finished rating the level 8 and 9 spells (or to be more exact, the candidates for Wish) and have edited them into the guide.

    Completely forgot to add Expedious Retreat. Now that it's mentioned I can see it's good for Wild Mages.

    And yeah, I might as well change Bend Luck to sky blue. Thanks~

    I pre-ordered the Volo's guide, but living in Japan, it will take several more weeks till I obtain it. Until then I cannot rate them myself, but if anyone has insight, please tell me here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Confession: I am generally a very lazy person.
    What?! Don't underestimate yourself! I'm not sure what you mean, but I feel that typing ~25k words is not 'lazy'.
    Yes, it's impossible. Now shut up and do the impossible.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    The Longsword Palacerer shouldn't exist. The three options should be: Rapier, Greatsword, and Staff. Staff and Shield users are basically the same as what you have listed for Longsword users, except that they don't need Warcaster. As a class desperate for ASIs, that makes the staff users strictly better than Longsword users.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    The Longsword Palacerer shouldn't exist. The three options should be: Rapier, Greatsword, and Staff. Staff and Shield users are basically the same as what you have listed for Longsword users, except that they don't need Warcaster. As a class desperate for ASIs, that makes the staff users strictly better than Longsword users.
    Well, by RAW, staffs and quarterstaffs seem like different stuff (to prove this, staffs are 5GP while quarterstaffs are 2SP, and some magical Staffs specifically say "this item can be used as a magical quarterstaff").

    As you say, if the DM allows you to get magical items at character creation and you can obtain a staff that also acts as a quarterstaff, that'll be a damn nice item to get for a Sorcadin. But by RAW, it seems you can't use a "staff" as a weapon - at least unless it's an improvised weapon (same stuff as chairs, sticks etc.).

    To be fair, I as a DM (not caring about RAW at all in the first place) would allow it, but not will.

    And apart from that, War Caster is a pretty good feat, even looking at the concentration advantage and BB OAs. "Shouldn't exist" is putting it much too far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Both can be used as quarterstaves, but only the more expensive versions can be used as an Arcane Focus.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    Both can be used as quarterstaves, but only the more expensive versions can be used as an Arcane Focus.
    Where is that mentioned in the PHB? I couldn't find it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
    Extended Signature: Homebrew Stuff
    Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    First of all: Thank you Gastronomie for writing this thread (probably the best 5e guide I've ever read, to the point that I registered mostly to tell you this...)
    I also wanted to thank DivisibleByZero which has already pointed out my main concerns and helped improving the great work!

    Then...
    1) I was wondering why so much emphasis has been given (apart from personal preference) to tank/control (Gastronomie) or support (DBZ); seems to me that this class could have one of the highest DPRs in 5e (I'm not talking of 15-20lvls which I rarely experienced, but of 10-15lvls). 2 attacks -- 2 smites using 4th level slots + quickened fireball/inflict wounds(oathbreaker3) using slots useless for smites (>4th level). If we assume having advantage, likely from precasted Greater Invisibility, or another attack from Haste, that looks like a ton of damage... Shouldn't we focus on optimizing this?

    2) Just wanted to say that I support Pal2/SorX build, more Sorcery Points, more Quickened Fireballs and Hold Monsters, more slots to use smites on. But I see the point of going Pal6, especially on tanky builds. Pal2/SorX supports ASIs to attack stat, so to hit more often and further increase damage.

    3) For DBZ: I was thinking to a Sorcadin build similar to yours, but I chose Str over Dex, what convinced you to go Dex instead? (I see the point if Str requirement for multiclassing is removed, but otherwise I find there's little to be gained)

    4) Regarding Volo's Aasimars: very strong, so strong that I'm actually writing a Sorcadin Aasimar (we start at level 8). Aasimar gives me +2Char +1Str/Wis/Con, resistance to Necro and Radiant, Light cantrip (...), Action to heal HP = character level, Darkvision (it's OotA :S) and a transformation 1/day to become a beast for 1 minute and add character level to damage 1/turn + fly/frightenin10feets/stillmoredamagein10feets

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    What are y'alls thoughts on:

    Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 12 (going to warlock 2 allows you to take the Agonizing Blast for Cha mod to eldritch blast)

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosnoop110 View Post
    What are y'alls thoughts on:

    Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 12 (going to warlock 2 allows you to take the Agonizing Blast for Cha mod to eldritch blast)
    I mean...you could. But why? The purpose of this build is to be a nova tank melee striker person. Why are you dropping two levels of Sorcerer (or Paladin) to get a cantrip attack? Your job isn't to attack at range.

    If you wanted to do this, you probably want to drop Paladin entirely and go Warlock 2 / Sorc X.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Thanks for writing this, then adding more to address comments!

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Nappa View Post
    I mean...you could. But why? The purpose of this build is to be a nova tank melee striker person. Why are you dropping two levels of Sorcerer (or Paladin) to get a cantrip attack? Your job isn't to attack at range.

    If you wanted to do this, you probably want to drop Paladin entirely and go Warlock 2 / Sorc X.
    The charisma to eldritch blast damage per ray sure is nice, but I think the real jewel of 2-level warlock dip is the spell slots which are recovered on short rests. True, they are only two per rest and only 1st-level. But that's two reliable slots between short rests to spend on smites if for nothing else.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-11-13 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Thanks for the comments everyone~~!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashuan21 View Post
    First of all: Thank you Gastronomie for writing this thread (probably the best 5e guide I've ever read, to the point that I registered mostly to tell you this...)
    Why, you're welcome. That's very proud to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashuan21 View Post
    Then...
    1) I was wondering why so much emphasis has been given (apart from personal preference) to tank/control (Gastronomie) or support (DBZ); seems to me that this class could have one of the highest DPRs in 5e (I'm not talking of 15-20lvls which I rarely experienced, but of 10-15lvls). 2 attacks -- 2 smites using 4th level slots + quickened fireball/inflict wounds(oathbreaker3) using slots useless for smites (>4th level). If we assume having advantage, likely from precasted Greater Invisibility, or another attack from Haste, that looks like a ton of damage... Shouldn't we focus on optimizing this?
    Well, actually, that's because you actually don't need focus on optimizing damage; you already have it as a core ability. All you need is Divine Smite and Quickened Spell (and Extra Attack, possibly). All of these are stuff you get without dedicated optimization, being in the premise of the build itself.
    Thus, if you want to be a DPR monster, you don't need optimization; you can just build a normal Sorcadin and decide to take that sort of method during actual gameplay.
    However, overuse of Divine Smite can quickly burn through slots fast, and it's generally better to use spells. Divine Smite is a really good option for when you want to kill something real fast, or when you crit, but it's not something you necessarily use all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosnoop110 View Post
    What are y'alls thoughts on:

    Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 12 (going to warlock 2 allows you to take the Agonizing Blast for Cha mod to eldritch blast)
    TBH going Warlock 2 for Agonizing Blast is not a very good idea - not really bad either, but most of the time, not worth it. Getting a ranged attack option is good, but not worth 2 levels' delay in Sorcerer.

    The only situation in which I think going Warlock 1 or 2 is "assertively recommended" is when the DM permits Undying Light + Draconic Sorcerer, but I don't allow Undying Light in my games. Even if I'm a player and the DM alllows me to use it I still wouldn't, because I personally don't like Undying Light's cheap design (during actual gameplay, I value personal liking over hardcore optimization).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    The charisma to eldritch blast damage per ray sure is nice, but I think the real jewel of 2-level warlock dip is the spell slots which are recovered on short rests. True, they are only two per rest and only 1st-level. But that's two reliable slots between short rests to spend on smites if for nothing else.
    TBH I don't think the "gaining spell slots that re-charge on a short rest" is not as good at it may seem. For instance, between Pal 6/Sorc 14 and Pal 6/Sorc 12/Lock 2, the former gets 2 more Sorcery Points and a level 9 spell slot (as well as access to level 7 spells). In return, the latter gets 2 level 1 slots per short rest.

    In terms of Sorcery Points, 6/12/2 needs to take 6 or more short rests per day to get on the same level. That is far from realistic.
    In terms of level 1 spell slots, the former can use these 11 extra Sorcery Points to create 5 level 1 spell slots if he wants, meaning that if you get only one short rest per day, 6/14 is actually better at casting level 1 spells. Even if you get 2 short rests per day, it's about the same level.

    Dipping Warlock should be done NOT for Agonizing Blast.
    It should be done NOT for casting potential.

    I think the main reasons to go are the Invocations, spells, and level 1 Patron abilities.

    As already mentioned by Arkhios, Armor of Agathys is pretty interesting when upcast. Apart from that, a lot of the invocations are really interesting to use in RP moments. And for Sorcadins I think that Repelling Blast is better than Agonizing Blast, since it gives you a lot of field control - combine with stuff like Web or Wall of Fire for fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
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    Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    So, where would a Fallen Aasimar rank in a strength build versus a Human Variant?

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