Page 7 of 24 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314151617 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 210 of 719
  1. - Top - End - #181
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Fable Wright's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Just posting to mention that the new Paladin Oaths from Unearthed Arcana deserve some mention in the handbook. Oath of Conquest grants the amazing Armor of Agathys, making the Warlock dip unnecessary and has the Guided Strike ability as a non-action Channel Divinity, which is interesting. The 7th+ level features are meh, but it still makes for great multiclassing.

    Oath of Treachery is worth a mention next to Oath of Devotion, as Advantage on all attack rolls vs. Charisma to rolls for a minute is good, and the 7th level feature actually provides a fairly substantial bonus, granting Advantage to let you use Channel Devotion for bonus damage along with adding good Reaction damage a few times per rest.
    Used to be DMofDarkness
    Old avatar by Elagune.
    Spoiler: Collection of Signature Quotes
    Show

  2. - Top - End - #182
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Arkhios's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Just posting to mention that the new Paladin Oaths from Unearthed Arcana deserve some mention in the handbook. Oath of Conquest grants the amazing Armor of Agathys, making the Warlock dip unnecessary and has the Guided Strike ability as a non-action Channel Divinity, which is interesting. The 7th+ level features are meh, but it still makes for great multiclassing.

    Oath of Treachery is worth a mention next to Oath of Devotion, as Advantage on all attack rolls vs. Charisma to rolls for a minute is good, and the 7th level feature actually provides a fairly substantial bonus, granting Advantage to let you use Channel Devotion for bonus damage along with adding good Reaction damage a few times per rest.
    Along with these lines I came up with a question:
    If an Oath of Conquest paladin took 6 levels in Draconic Sorcerer (White dragon bloodline), would the Elemental Affinity boost the cold damage from Armor of Agathys? (I realize it wouldn't affect the total THP)
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
    Note: Blue text written in italics implies lighthearted sarcasm. Don't take it seriously.


    sarcasm
    /ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
    noun
    the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

  3. - Top - End - #183
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ursus the Grim's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    NY/NJ
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    This has to be one of the most comprehensive guides I've seen in a while, and I've referred to it a few times - though only now am I getting around to building my very own sorcadin. I'm a huge fan of Volo's and can't wait to see what you do with it.

    Here's a character I'm planning out.

    Spoiler: AL Yuan-Ti Sorcadin
    Show

    Yuan-Ti: Resistance to Magic, Immunity to Poison, +2 Cha, +1 Int. Some spells (notably, Suggestion, Acid Splash, and Animal Friendship) from CHA.

    Challenges: In Adventurer's League, playing a Volo's race precludes use of other source books. So no GFB. Racial bonuses aren't great for Sorcadin ability scores.

    I was originally leaning towards Sword and Board for tankiness, but realized that you listed GFB as mandatory for that style, and I wasn't keen on War Caster for a build that was already looking pretty ASI starved. Even if I did go S&B, I'd have to play the first five levels like a GWM if I wanted to cast spells in combat.

    I opted to defy the suggestion of Resilient (Con) because the Immunity to Poison, Magic Resistance, and +Cha to saves feel like enough to patch that weakness up. And because I couldn't max out a stat if I took it.

    General Advancement

    Paladin 6/Sorc 14 Path (because I like Sorcerer roughly twice as much as I like Paladin)

    2 Levels of Paladin -> 6 Levels of Sorc -> 4 Levels of Paladin -> X Levels of Sorc

    Ability Scores
    Working off of a 27 point buy, I took the following array before racials.
    15/10/12/9/10/15
    I could also have gone 14 in Con, which would look good, but I'd have to dump Dex and Wisdom both down to 8 and I'd have one wasted point.

    ASIs were going to be GWM -> +1 to STR and CHA -> +2 STR -> +2 STR

    Spells
    Would avoid casting Concentration spells when I realistically expect to get hit.

    Mostly followed your suggestions here. Didn't take Haste because of the aforementioned Concentration problems. Took Stinking Cloud because I'm immune to poison.

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Ahh young grasshopper, you have done well with your min-maxing, but you have oh so much to learn.....

    Ok i felt in your multi-classing and weapons options you have missed a vital exploit with warlock, especially the undying light.

    A 3 level dip into warlock is crucial, and here is why:
    when you take warlock (any) you must choose pact of the tome.
    this allows you to add cantrips from any class to your spell list.
    you must choose Shillelagh, these cantrips are counted as warlock cantrips, as such by choosing Shillelagh this way rather then a feat, it works off charisma, not wisdom.

    now we use our sorcerer arcane focus (staff) as a quarter staff, which we cast Shillelagh on, this means our quarter staff now hits on charisma+proficiency
    and damages on 1d6+cha or 1d8+cha if used 2 handed (which we will do) and this damage is magical.

    by taking the oath devotion we can further buff our Shillelagh quarter staff to add charisma to hit.
    now we have a weapon which does cha+cha+proficiency to hit.

    by level 12 I would recommend starting with 4 sorcerer, then 4 warlock, then 4 paladin for maximum melee.
    or sorcerer 6, warlock 3, paladin 3 for a bit more all rounder.

    the goal by 20 is to be: Sorcerer 12, warlock 4, paladin 4.


    Our feats and upgrades can then be:
    human variant: war caster
    sorc 4: +2 cha
    Lock 4: +2 cha
    Paladin 4: Great weapon master
    sorc 8: Sentinal
    sorc 12: Polearm master.

    our paladin fighting style is tunnel fighter, from light dark underdark

    this means:
    enter reach, free attack
    leave reach, free attack
    move 5ft while in reach, free attack
    may attack with opportunity attack
    disadvantage to anyone not attacking you in reach
    movement becomes 0 if you hit them

    our Versatile Quarter staff is a Two handed weapon, a polearm weapon, a Shillelagh weapon and an arcane focus all in one.
    we can power attack and cleave with it.
    and we can combine with a GFB to reap crazy benefits


    Level 12 Sorc4/Lock4/Paladin4
    not power attacking +14 to hit
    average 3d8+5+5=23.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    max=34

    Power attack +9 to hit
    average 3d8+5+5+10=33.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    max 44

    Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +9 to hit
    average 31.5
    max=45

    Level 20
    Power attack with +3 quarter staff +14 to hit
    average 5d8+5+5+5+10=50.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    Max=68

    Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +11 to hit
    average 52.5
    Max =75

    however GFB can be quickened to be used twice and if we add in your lvl 4 smite.
    +3 Q.Staff, Shillelagh, Sacred weapon, lvl4 Smite, Power Attack.
    average=78
    Max=113

    all of this is single target though.

    if your level 20 Sorc 12/Lock 4/Paladin 4 had 8 enemies charge him and surround him he could pump out:
    average (assume 1 miss so 7 hit) 777
    Max(hit 8)=920

    add in 8 level 4 smites
    =1280

    name another class that can pump that kind of punishment out.

    that 777 average damage can be pumped out all day everyday while you are breathing.


    and that right their is why i earned the nickname Minmaxer.

    more to follow....

  5. - Top - End - #185
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    Ahh young grasshopper, you have done well with your min-maxing, but you have oh so much to learn.....

    Ok i felt in your multi-classing and weapons options you have missed a vital exploit with warlock, especially the undying light.

    A 3 level dip into warlock is crucial, and here is why:
    when you take warlock (any) you must choose pact of the tome.
    this allows you to add cantrips from any class to your spell list.
    you must choose Shillelagh, these cantrips are counted as warlock cantrips, as such by choosing Shillelagh this way rather then a feat, it works off charisma, not wisdom.

    now we use our sorcerer arcane focus (staff) as a quarter staff, which we cast Shillelagh on, this means our quarter staff now hits on charisma+proficiency
    and damages on 1d6+cha or 1d8+cha if used 2 handed (which we will do) and this damage is magical.

    by taking the oath devotion we can further buff our Shillelagh quarter staff to add charisma to hit.
    now we have a weapon which does cha+cha+proficiency to hit.

    by level 12 I would recommend starting with 4 sorcerer, then 4 warlock, then 4 paladin for maximum melee.
    or sorcerer 6, warlock 3, paladin 3 for a bit more all rounder.

    the goal by 20 is to be: Sorcerer 12, warlock 4, paladin 4.


    Our feats and upgrades can then be:
    human variant: war caster
    sorc 4: +2 cha
    Lock 4: +2 cha
    Paladin 4: Great weapon master
    sorc 8: Sentinal
    sorc 12: Polearm master.

    our paladin fighting style is tunnel fighter, from light dark underdark

    this means:
    enter reach, free attack
    leave reach, free attack
    move 5ft while in reach, free attack
    may attack with opportunity attack
    disadvantage to anyone not attacking you in reach
    movement becomes 0 if you hit them

    our Versatile Quarter staff is a Two handed weapon, a polearm weapon, a Shillelagh weapon and an arcane focus all in one.
    we can power attack and cleave with it.
    and we can combine with a GFB to reap crazy benefits


    Level 12 Sorc4/Lock4/Paladin4
    not power attacking +14 to hit
    average 3d8+5+5=23.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    max=34

    Power attack +9 to hit
    average 3d8+5+5+10=33.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    max 44

    Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +9 to hit
    average 31.5
    max=45

    Level 20
    Power attack with +3 quarter staff +14 to hit
    average 5d8+5+5+5+10=50.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    Max=68

    Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +11 to hit
    average 52.5
    Max =75

    however GFB can be quickened to be used twice and if we add in your lvl 4 smite.
    +3 Q.Staff, Shillelagh, Sacred weapon, lvl4 Smite, Power Attack.
    average=78
    Max=113

    all of this is single target though.

    if your level 20 Sorc 12/Lock 4/Paladin 4 had 8 enemies charge him and surround him he could pump out:
    average (assume 1 miss so 7 hit) 777
    Max(hit 8)=920

    add in 8 level 4 smites
    =1280

    name another class that can pump that kind of punishment out.

    that 777 average damage can be pumped out all day everyday while you are breathing.


    and that right their is why i earned the nickname Minmaxer.

    more to follow....
    I don't think the damage changes if you use one or two hands on a staff with shillelagh cast on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ursus the Grim's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    NY/NJ
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Ok i felt in your multi-classing and weapons options you have missed a vital exploit with warlock, especially the undying light.
    I feel like tri-classing defeats the point of a sorcadin guide.

    arcane focus (staff) as a quarter staff, which we cast Shillelagh on, this means our quarter staff now hits on charisma+proficiency
    and damages on 1d6+cha or 1d8+cha if used 2 handed (which we will do) and this damage is magical.
    Versatile doesn't enter into it. Shillelagh sets the damage to 1d8.

    by taking the oath devotion we can further buff our Shillelagh quarter staff to add charisma to hit.
    now we have a weapon which does cha+cha+proficiency to hit.
    For one minute, at the cost of your Channel Divinity and an Action. So you're already an Action behind.

    our paladin fighting style is tunnel fighter, from light dark underdark
    And now we're starting to see justification for the D&D AL rules of 'PHB+1' that everyone seems to hate.


    if your level 20 Sorc 12/Lock 4/Paladin 4 had 8 enemies charge him and surround him he could pump out:
    average (assume 1 miss so 7 hit) 777
    Max(hit 8)=920

    add in 8 level 4 smites
    =1280

    name another class that can pump that kind of punishment out.
    Sorcerer 20?

    While we're coming up with unrealistic, optimal scenarios, here's one.

    Fire Draconic Sorcerer throws a 9th level Quickened Fireball into a horde of twig blights. They all fail their saves and he rolls maximum damage.

    A Fireball can envelop 44 squares, each of which is going to take 2x(84+5) damage. That's a maximum of 7832 damage as a bonus action.

    Using this calculation, he can Empower the spell to deal an average of 53 fire damage on those rolls, or 2x(53+5) damage to 44 creatures. That's an average of 5104 damage as a Bonus action for the cost of 3 sorcery points.

    that 777 average damage can be pumped out all day everyday while you are breathing.
    How so? You're burning quickens and Channel Divinity. You only have 12 Sorcery points to burn, and if you're throwing smites you've got less spell slots to burn to get those points back. Also, how are you throwing eight Level 4 smites around? You only have three level 4 spell slots, and it costs half of your sorcery points to create another one.


    and that right their is why i earned the nickname Minmaxer.
    I'm definitely not worthy of the epithet 'Minmaxer with a capital M', but I assure you there are people on these boards that can teach us both a thing or two about optimization, both practical and theoretical.

  7. - Top - End - #187
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    You only have three level 4 spell slots, and it costs half of your sorcery points to create another one.
    ...costs half your sorc points, and a bonus action. Further eating into your dpr.
    Last edited by Zene; 2016-12-29 at 11:06 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    Ahh young grasshopper, you have done well with your min-maxing, but you have oh so much to learn.....

    Our feats and upgrades can then be:
    human variant: war caster
    sorc 4: +2 cha
    Lock 4: +2 cha
    Paladin 4: Great weapon master
    sorc 8: Sentinal
    sorc 12: Polearm master.

    our paladin fighting style is tunnel fighter, from light dark underdark

    this means:
    enter reach, free attack
    leave reach, free attack
    move 5ft while in reach, free attack
    may attack with opportunity attack
    disadvantage to anyone not attacking you in reach
    movement becomes 0 if you hit them

    our Versatile Quarter staff is a Two handed weapon, a polearm weapon, a Shillelagh weapon and an arcane focus all in one.
    we can power attack and cleave with it.
    and we can combine with a GFB to reap crazy benefits


    Level 12 Sorc4/Lock4/Paladin4
    not power attacking +14 to hit
    average 3d8+5+5=23.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    max=34

    Power attack +9 to hit
    average 3d8+5+5+10=33.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    max 44

    Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +9 to hit
    average 31.5
    max=45

    Level 20
    Power attack with +3 quarter staff +14 to hit
    average 5d8+5+5+5+10=50.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
    Max=68

    Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +11 to hit
    average 52.5
    Max =75

    however GFB can be quickened to be used twice and if we add in your lvl 4 smite.
    +3 Q.Staff, Shillelagh, Sacred weapon, lvl4 Smite, Power Attack.
    average=78
    Max=113

    all of this is single target though.

    if your level 20 Sorc 12/Lock 4/Paladin 4 had 8 enemies charge him and surround him he could pump out:
    average (assume 1 miss so 7 hit) 777
    Max(hit 8)=920

    add in 8 level 4 smites
    =1280

    name another class that can pump that kind of punishment out.

    that 777 average damage can be pumped out all day everyday while you are breathing.


    and that right their is why i earned the nickname Minmaxer.

    more to follow....
    This grand old master is senile since us young grasshoppers realizes that you can't power attack with a quarterstaff. It is easy to min/max if you homebrew.

  9. - Top - End - #189
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    I feel like tri-classing defeats the point of a sorcadin guide.
    there is a section on further multi classing, i feel the lock needs to be bumped up in desire, and more options listed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Versatile doesn't enter into it. Shillelagh sets the damage to 1d8.
    use it 2 handed to apply the great weapon feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    For one minute, at the cost of your Channel Divinity and an Action. So you're already an Action behind.
    to make our accuracy sky rocket, worth it in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    And now we're starting to see justification for the D&D AL rules of 'PHB+1' that everyone seems to hate.
    if you can use it use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Sorcerer 20?
    you read wrong, level 20...... sorcerer 12/ lock 4/ paladin 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    While we're coming up with unrealistic, optimal scenarios, here's one

    Fire Draconic Sorcerer throws a 9th level Quickened Fireball into a horde of twig blights. They all fail their saves and he rolls maximum damage.

    A Fireball can envelop 44 squares, each of which is going to take 2x(84+5) damage. That's a maximum of 7832 damage as a bonus action.

    Using this calculation, he can Empower the spell to deal an average of 53 fire damage on those rolls, or 2x(53+5) damage to 44 creatures. That's an average of 5104 damage as a Bonus action for the cost of 3 sorcery points..
    which this character can do except he does 840 more average damage thanks to Undying light +5 fire damage, this was about sustainable damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    How so? You're burning quickens and Channel Divinity. You only have 12 Sorcery points to burn, and if you're throwing smites you've got less spell slots to burn to get those points back. Also, how are you throwing eight Level 4 smites around? You only have three level 4 spell slots, and it costs half of your sorcery points to create another one..

    with the level 5 slots used as level 4 and converting all lower spells you have just enough to do it.
    but the real value is just doing a level 1, so that you get the +5 damage to radiant damage from UL lock, an extra 1d8+5 on each attack should be able to be maintained for quite some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    I'm definitely not worthy of the epithet 'Minmaxer with a capital M', but I assure you there are people on these boards that can teach us both a thing or two about optimization, both practical and theoretical.
    thats the point of these forums, share and learn.

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    This grand old master is senile since us young grasshoppers realizes that you can't power attack with a quarterstaff. It is easy to min/max if you homebrew.
    what are you talking about? its a versatile weapon so counts as a two hander when used with 2 hands

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    what are you talking about? its a versatile weapon so counts as a two hander when used with 2 hands
    Grand Old Master please put on your reading glasses GWM second bullet only applies to heavy weapons.

  12. - Top - End - #192
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ursus the Grim's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    NY/NJ
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    what are you talking about? its a versatile weapon so counts as a two hander when used with 2 hands
    Assuming that you mean Great Weapon Master feat when you say Power Attack, this is irrelevant. GWM works with heavy weapons. Using the versatile property doesn't make it a heavy weapon.

    This is why Monks (and halflings) can use a quarterstaff two-handed.

    Repeat after me. "Nothing about Versatile makes a weapon count as Heavy."
    you read wrong, level 20...... sorcerer 12/ lock 4/ paladin 4
    No I didn't. I was offering Sorcerer 20 as a simple example of a character that can out damage this build in a given optimal scenario.

    which this character can do except he does 840 more average damage thanks to Undying light +5 fire damage, this was about sustainable damage
    Where are you getting 840 more damage from? 5 fire damage x 2 vulnerability x 44 targets= 440 damage.

    Your build has, at best, 7th level spell slots and is incapable of casting a 9th level Fireball. You may be adding +5 fire damage to each creature, but you're losing 2d6 Fire damage. On average, you're dealing 4 damage less to each target than a sorcerer 20.

    this was about sustainable damage
    with the level 5 slots used as level 4 and converting all lower spells you have just enough to do it.
    Clearly it wasn't about sustainable.

  13. - Top - End - #193
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Assuming that you mean Great Weapon Master feat when you say Power Attack, this is irrelevant. GWM works with heavy weapons. Using the versatile property doesn't make it a heavy weapon.

    This is why Monks (and halflings) can use a quarterstaff two-handed.

    Repeat after me. "Nothing about Versatile makes a weapon count as Heavy."
    ah, got that trick a while back from a paladin thread, never really checked their idea, however the +5 to hit from the paladin increases your accuracy to the point that your damage output per turn is slightly higher then using agonising eldritch blast, and you always have the option of using the longstaff home-brew weapon from the dm guild if your dm is nice, or could at high levels use a wish for a "heavy" quarter staff.

    Martial Melee Weapon
    Longstaff 5 sp 1d8 bludgeoning 7 lb. Heavy, reach, special, two-handed
    This sturdy wooden pole is used to train warriors in the use of pikes and halberds. A longstaff offers reduced combat effectiveness compared to such weapons, but is quite inexpensive and may double as a trap-springing device.
    The longstaff is considered to be a monk weapon, despite not fulfilling the requirements listed under the Martial Arts class feature. Monks may become proficient with longstaves by taking the Weapon Master feat. A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand, although its base damage becomes 1d6 when used in this manner.
    A longstaff counts as a quarterstaff for the purpose of effects that relate to weapon type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    No I didn't. I was offering Sorcerer 20 as a simple example of a character that can out damage this build in a given optimal scenario.

    Where are you getting 840 more damage from? 5 fire damage x 2 vulnerability x 44 targets= 440 damage.

    Your build has, at best, 7th level spell slots and is incapable of casting a 9th level Fireball. You may be adding +5 fire damage to each creature, but you're losing 2d6 Fire damage. On average, you're dealing 4 damage less to each target than a sorcerer 20.
    oh i thought you said level 9 sorcerer casting it, not level 9 spell, in that case my character averages only 2 dps lower per creature hit, 2d6 average is 7, and i do +5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Clearly it wasn't about sustainable.
    you can easily sustain damage output by converting all spell slots 1st level in order to get maximum number of smites, in order to obtain the +5 from the Lock UL feature.

    this would result in an extra 9.5 damage per enemy and could be done a huge number of times, however i would only do such a thing in a campaign like strand, where your facing numerous vampires and undead.

    the point is to bring up a viable option as an alternative to just grabbing an agonising eldritch blast.
    and i think this 3 level lock dip gives the sorcadin the way to not just keep up with a lock, but be a better despair then a lock.

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Repression and Denial
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    Martial Melee Weapon
    Longstaff 5 sp 1d8 bludgeoning 7 lb. Heavy, reach, special, two-handed
    This sturdy wooden pole is used to train warriors in the use of pikes and halberds. A longstaff offers reduced combat effectiveness compared to such weapons, but is quite inexpensive and may double as a trap-springing device.
    The longstaff is considered to be a monk weapon, despite not fulfilling the requirements listed under the Martial Arts class feature. Monks may become proficient with longstaves by taking the Weapon Master feat. A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand, although its base damage becomes 1d6 when used in this manner.
    A longstaff counts as a quarterstaff for the purpose of effects that relate to weapon type.
    As mentioned before, it's easy to be broken with homebrew. Particularly as that is a broken weapon concept in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    you can easily sustain damage output by converting all spell slots 1st level in order to get maximum number of smites, in order to obtain the +5 from the Lock UL feature.
    Except, you know, you explicitly stated using your higher level spell slots for Smites as well. It's also easy to be broken if you keep changing your mind about how you've already used your resources.

    Also, a Versatile weapon wielded in two hands is not considered a Two-Handed weapon. They're two entirely different classes of weapon.

    I'm starting to doubt that nickname story...
    Last edited by Sicarius Victis; 2016-12-30 at 11:24 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #195
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    As mentioned before, it's easy to be broken with homebrew. Particularly as that is a broken weapon concept in the first place.
    it is not a broken weapon concept, the designer was on point, he took a glaive, lowered its damage to a d8, like a quarter staff used in 2 hands, and made it count as a quarter staff, even allowing it to count as a monk weapon, which fits perfect, if you have never seen a martial arts movie where they fight with a 10ft+ bamboo pole, your living under a rock.

    i'd allow any of my players to take it if they asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    Except, you know, you explicitly stated using your higher level spell slots for Smites as well. It's also easy to be broken if you keep changing your mind about how you've already used your resources.
    That was to demonstrate maximum damage in such a situation as to require radiant damage, the point is demonstrate how over powered this particular build is so as to demon straight to the original guide why the warlock entry needs some extra information added as to possible combinations, and to increase its value as a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    Also, a Versatile weapon wielded in two hands is not considered a Two-Handed weapon. They're two entirely different classes of weapon.
    Versatile: This weapon can be used with one or two hands. A damage value in parentheses appears with the property–the damage when the weapon is used with two hands to make a melee attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    I'm starting to doubt that nickname story...
    don't care

  16. - Top - End - #196
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Nov 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    it is not a broken weapon concept, the designer was on point, he took a glaive, lowered its damage to a d8, like a quarter staff used in 2 hands, and made it count as a quarter staff, even allowing it to count as a monk weapon, which fits perfect, if you have never seen a martial arts movie where they fight with a 10ft+ bamboo pole, your living under a rock.

    i'd allow any of my players to take it if they asked.



    That was to demonstrate maximum damage in such a situation as to require radiant damage, the point is demonstrate how over powered this particular build is so as to demon straight to the original guide why the warlock entry needs some extra information added as to possible combinations, and to increase its value as a choice.



    Versatile: This weapon can be used with one or two hands. A damage value in parentheses appears with the property–the damage when the weapon is used with two hands to make a melee attack.



    don't care
    The word you are looking for is "demonstrate".

  17. - Top - End - #197
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Massachusetts

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Well you can still use great weapon style with a quarterstaff since it is versatile and reroll 1s and 2s.

    And the only thing needed for the bonus action attack in GWM is a kill or crit and melee weapon...

  18. - Top - End - #198
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Repression and Denial
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    it is not a broken weapon concept, the designer was on point, he took a glaive, lowered its damage to a d8, like a quarter staff used in 2 hands, and made it count as a quarter staff, even allowing it to count as a monk weapon, which fits perfect, if you have never seen a martial arts movie where they fight with a 10ft+ bamboo pole, your living under a rock.
    Yeah. A one-handed, Heavy/Reach monk weapon. I see no problems there.

    In particular, I see no problems with (A) the ability to dual-wield Heavy weapons, or (B) wield Heavy weapons and still have have a free hand for a shield or spellcasting. Nope, nothing broken here.

    And no, it is not a "10+ feet" pole. As a weapon, they tend to be 6-8 feet, and not wieldable in one hand. I've actually used them, not just watched movies with them. I have a slightly better idea of ehat I'm talking about than you seem to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    That was to demonstrate maximum damage in such a situation as to require radiant damage, the point is demonstrate how over powered this particular build is so as to demon straight to the original guide why the warlock entry needs some extra information added as to possible combinations, and to increase its value as a choice.
    That build was proven weaker than another build earlier, then when confronted on it you claimed it was still better because it was more sustainable. I'd suggest you make up your mind and stick to one story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    Versatile: This weapon can be used with one or two hands. A damage value in parentheses appears with the property–the damage when the weapon is used with two hands to make a melee attack.
    That doesn't mean it's a Two-Handed weapon, it means it's a weapon wielded in two hands. Two-Handed is an entirely different weapon property from Versatile, as has been explicitly stated before. If you want to argue with my statement, please try to come up with an argument that hasn't already been disproven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    don't care
    You don't have to, it doesn't change anything.

    Also, are you getting passive-aggressive? It's starting to seem like you are.

  19. - Top - End - #199
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    Yeah. A one-handed, Heavy/Reach monk weapon. I see no problems there.

    In particular, I see no problems with (A) the ability to dual-wield Heavy weapons, or (B) wield Heavy weapons and still have have a free hand for a shield or spellcasting. Nope, nothing broken here.

    And no, it is not a "10+ feet" pole. As a weapon, they tend to be 6-8 feet, and not wieldable in one hand. I've actually used them, not just watched movies with them. I have a slightly better idea of ehat I'm talking about than you seem to.
    Mate, it's two-handed if you read again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    That build was proven weaker than another build earlier, then when confronted on it you claimed it was still better because it was more sustainable. I'd suggest you make up your mind and stick to one story.
    it wasn't proven weaker, damage per enemy is higher per enemy then a single fireball of 9th level with green flame blade (even without power attack), you are limited to how many enemies attack you, since you are theoretically able too put out 4d8+5fire+5fire+5charisma (33) primary hit, 3d8+5fire+5fire (23.5) secondary hit, and cleave once felling another enemy 1d8+5charisma (9.5) for a total of (66) compared to a fireball of 14d6+5fire (54)

    if that 66 damage kills the enemy charging you, then another enemy can enter the vacant square effectively meaning you can hit and kill every enemy capable of charging you, this means if an enemy is able to move 30ft and charge 60 then you could potentially do (24 squaresx24squares-8 squares around you) 568 enemies x 66 equals 37,488 damage, if your vs wolves or beasts that move 50ft and charge 100ft thats 1592 enemies surrounding you, so you can do 105,072 average damage to that many enemies. oh andd that many enemies would have 80 crates so we can add 7d8 (31.5)x80 to that
    thats 107,592 damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    That doesn't mean it's a Two-Handed weapon, it means it's a weapon wielded in two hands. Two-Handed is an entirely different weapon property from Versatile, as has been explicitly stated before. If you want to argue with my statement, please try to come up with an argument that hasn't already been disproven.
    i understand what your saying, not sure how this effects us, none of the rules i use specify requiring 2 handed only

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    You don't have to, it doesn't change anything.

    Also, are you getting passive-aggressive? It's starting to seem like you are.
    No mate, i simply just don't care about your opinion of me, i don't know you, i'm not on here to win a popularity award, i am here to learn things (like the clarification of power attack, thank-you) so i can min max even in situations where i meet a dm who only allows PHB and SC.
    Last edited by Hakon; 2016-12-31 at 05:36 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #200
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I posted some time last month but I agree that when it comes to Tri-classing this build, Warlock is the best. I'd lean heavily towards Tome3, going Undying Light if UA is available, or Fiend if not.
    You're giving up some Daily spell slots, Extra Attack, and +Cha to Saves to do it. You're also losing 1-2 ASIs over the normal Sorcadin build, or cutting your higher levels of Sorc.

    The only reason I would consider leaving it out of the guide is that it would really take up quite a bit of space on its own, and building to go 3 class with Lock changes some of the other priorities around.
    I'd almost like to see another guide (me, or someone else) but don't think there's enough content specifically pertaining to a Lock/Pally/Sorc and GFB build.

  21. - Top - End - #201
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Repression and Denial
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    Mate, it's two-handed if you read again.
    I quote: "A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand". I think you'll find it's you who needs to read again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    it wasn't proven weaker, damage per enemy is higher per enemy then a single fireball of 9th level with green flame blade (even without power attack), you are limited to how many enemies attack you, since you are theoretically able too put out 4d8+5fire+5fire+5charisma (33) primary hit, 3d8+5fire+5fire (23.5) secondary hit, and cleave once felling another enemy 1d8+5charisma (9.5) for a total of (66) compared to a fireball of 14d6+5fire (54)

    if that 66 damage kills the enemy charging you, then another enemy can enter the vacant square effectively meaning you can hit and kill every enemy capable of charging you, this means if an enemy is able to move 30ft and charge 60 then you could potentially do (24 squaresx24squares-8 squares around you) 568 enemies x 66 equals 37,488 damage, if your vs wolves or beasts that move 50ft and charge 100ft thats 1592 enemies surrounding you, so you can do 105,072 average damage to that many enemies. oh andd that many enemies would have 80 crates so we can add 7d8 (31.5)x80 to that
    thats 107,592 damage
    I'll take your word for it. Given that I never have been and undoubtedly never will be in a situation with 1592 enemies charging me, I'll never truly be capable of proving that right or wrong. Though, where does the cleave part come in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    i understand what your saying, not sure how this effects us, none of the rules i use specify requiring 2 handed only
    The point is, it's not a Two-Handed weapon. The point that you've been arguing against the whole time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    No mate, i simply just don't care about your opinion of me, i don't know you, i'm not on here to win a popularity award, i am here to learn things (like the clarification of power attack, thank-you) so i can min max even in situations where i meet a dm who only allows PHB and SC.
    And yet, you had to make a point of the nickname. The one you wouldn't even have bothered mentioning if you didn't care.

    Also, this isn't "only PHB and SC". There's also a congregation of some of the most broken parts of UA thrown in there as well.
    Last edited by Sicarius Victis; 2016-12-31 at 06:53 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #202
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    I quote: "A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand". I think you'll find it's you who needs to read again.
    didn't read the monk crap, only saw it said monk weapon, its kinda bull in one way bot its only d6 damage, no different to a quarter staff, I'm on the fence about, on the one hand I've seen it done in movies, on the other i could see how being able to power attack an off hand attack could be op.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    I'll take your word for it. Given that I never have been and undoubtedly never will be in a situation with 1592 enemies charging me, I'll never truly be capable of proving that right or wrong. Though, where does the cleave part come in?
    you started that line of thinking with your 2 fireballs hit an enemy in every square, my original damage claim was based of being surrounded by 8 scary enemies, something i have seen happen before, and thus my huge damage output on those 8 enemies felt ridiculously high and warranted calling it a brilliant idea. with or without power attack in the mix.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    The point is, it's not a Two-Handed weapon. The point that you've been arguing against the whole time.
    No what i said is believed the great weapon master feat applied to versatility weapons, which it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    And yet, you had to make a point of the nickname. The one you wouldn't even have bothered mentioning if you didn't care.

    Also, this isn't "only PHB and SC". There's also a congregation of some of the most broken parts of UA thrown in there as well.
    actually tbh i hate the name, its what my local hobby store owner calls me, but rather then let it bother me i own it, so you saying you don't think i deserve a name which i don't even like to begin with has given me 0 cares about this whole line of talking about it and i won't be talking further about it further simply because the oly thing i hate is how its waisting my time.


    also i don't think UA is too op in any way, it's maybe 5% off where it should be which is pretty good

    and i know its not included in phb+sc however i said i like being able to maximise within the official rules, and exploring options outside that can often lead to new thoughts on sticking within those rules
    Last edited by Hakon; 2016-12-31 at 08:16 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #203
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ursus the Grim's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    NY/NJ
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Might I suggest that we gave gotten to the part where the thread is off the rails? We are multiquoting each other's posts (always a bad sign) and it's a lopsided argument. We have one party arguing his build is super powerful but the homebrew is totally balanced, and the obvious consensus disagrees with him. Let's move on.


    Edit: Given how much attention he got for his build and all the feedback it received, does everyone agree that this build is optimized within its constraints?

  24. - Top - End - #204
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Might I suggest that we gave gotten to the part where the thread is off the rails? We are multiquoting each other's posts (always a bad sign) and it's a lopsided argument. We have one party arguing his build is super powerful but the homebrew is totally balanced, and the obvious consensus disagrees with him. Let's move on.


    Edit: Given how much attention he got for his build and all the feedback it received, does everyone agree that this build is optimized within its constraints?
    The crazy thing is even with the home brewed Longstaff the build still doesn't work, because Shillelagh's wording is specific only club or quarterstaff, not any piece wood you are holding.

  25. - Top - End - #205
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Why do you say that for 27-point buy, a 2 Pal/18 Sorcerer build would work better for DEX than with STR? It almost seems like it'd be the other way around; STR builds are slightly more durable (+1 AC and an extra hit point per level) and having just 2 levels in paladin puts you behind 8 hp and the +CHA bonus to saving throws, which further reduces your durability.

    Now, granted, generically DEX has some advantages over STR -- in particular, having +4 to 6 to initiative and DEX saving throws and even skills is a huge deal. But is the tradeoff in durability really worth it for a 2/18?

  26. - Top - End - #206
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Why do you say that for 27-point buy, a 2 Pal/18 Sorcerer build would work better for DEX than with STR? It almost seems like it'd be the other way around; STR builds are slightly more durable (+1 AC and an extra hit point per level) and having just 2 levels in paladin puts you behind 8 hp and the +CHA bonus to saving throws, which further reduces your durability.

    Now, granted, generically DEX has some advantages over STR -- in particular, having +4 to 6 to initiative and DEX saving throws and even skills is a huge deal. But is the tradeoff in durability really worth it for a 2/18?
    strength doesn't give ac or hp, i don't understand what you are saying

  27. - Top - End - #207
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    The crazy thing is even with the home brewed Longstaff the build still doesn't work, because Shillelagh's wording is specific only club or quarterstaff, not any piece wood you are holding.
    did you not notice the last line of the quarter staff which lets it work with shillelagh?

    A longstaff counts as a quarterstaff for the purpose of effects that relate to weapon type.

  28. - Top - End - #208
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gastronomie's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Yokohama, Japan

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I've been busy recently, hence not being able to edit or reply to comments. I'm still a bit busy, but at least I'm back. I will shortly get back to replying to questions. :3

    I have decided to postpone rating Volo's races and the UA options, because I have not had the chance to use them. Until I use them, I cannot say for sure whether they are good or not. Sorry guise. But I want this guide to be truly trustworthy, and for that it requires testplaying.

    @Hakon: Sorry, but I'd appreciate if you talk about Sorcerer/Paladin/Warlock in a different thread. What you're going for is quite different from what I'm going for, and besides, allowing homebrew defeats the purpose of creating a guide. Apart from that, as mentioned in my guide, I really hate the bad design of the Undying Light option. I've included it in the guide because it exists, but I don't want to devote a section to a subclass I don't even allow in my games.
    Spoiler: Avatar
    Show

    ^ Fantastic avatar made by Professor Gnoll. Yaya Tokaz, from the manga "Kukul and Nagi". ^
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Only on a DnD forum would discussing the methods for jamming a T-Rex into a 10x10x10 box be a thing.
    Extended Signature: Homebrew Stuff
    Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

  29. - Top - End - #209
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    I've been busy recently, hence not being able to edit or reply to comments. I'm still a bit busy, but at least I'm back. I will shortly get back to replying to questions. :3

    I have decided to postpone rating Volo's races and the UA options, because I have not had the chance to use them. Until I use them, I cannot say for sure whether they are good or not. Sorry guise. But I want this guide to be truly trustworthy, and for that it requires testplaying.

    @Hakon: Sorry, but I'd appreciate if you talk about Sorcerer/Paladin/Warlock in a different thread. What you're going for is quite different from what I'm going for, and besides, allowing homebrew defeats the purpose of creating a guide. Apart from that, as mentioned in my guide, I really hate the bad design of the Undying Light option. I've included it in the guide because it exists, but I don't want to devote a section to a subclass I don't even allow in my games.
    no worries, however i was only saying that in post 9 you talk about asi's and their effects on weapons, yet fail to include quarterstaff as a viable option.
    and you also mention multi classing, and list warlock 3 levels as blue
    i simply added all that information to say, that if wielding a quarter staff and you take a 3 level dip in warlock, then it should be light blue if you take pact of the tome for access to shillelagh

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Repression and Denial
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    no worries, however i was only saying that in post 9 you talk about asi's and their effects on weapons, yet fail to include quarterstaff as a viable option.
    If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that's because this specific guide is about the use of swords, as implied by the thread's name.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •