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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakon View Post
    no worries, however i was only saying that in post 9 you talk about asi's and their effects on weapons, yet fail to include quarterstaff as a viable option.
    and you also mention multi classing, and list warlock 3 levels as blue
    i simply added all that information to say, that if wielding a quarter staff and you take a 3 level dip in warlock, then it should be light blue if you take pact of the tome for access to shillelagh
    Remember that doing that pushes back your progression on the other abilities that you really want or you spend a long time having poor attack scores since you are built to rely on cha only. Both tend to be annoying unless you start at a higher level.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that's because this specific guide is about the use of swords, as implied by the thread's name.
    That plus, I found the level delay in Paladin and/or Sorcerer to be pretty taxing.

    But it's true Shillelegh (or whatever Lovecraftian spelling that word was) is useful, so I should edit that in. Thanks~

    EDIT: Did not see MeeposFire's post, pretty much said the same thing. Yeah, that's what I think too.
    Last edited by Gastronomie; 2017-01-02 at 06:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    That plus, I found the level delay in Paladin and/or Sorcerer to be pretty taxing.
    I in particular can't argue with wanting to get a faster progression, as I have never actually managed to get a character past level 10 in 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gastronomie View Post
    But it's true Shillelegh (or whatever Lovecraftian spelling that word was) is useful, so I should edit that in. Thanks~
    Shillelagh, but close enough. It's really simple to remember. You just have to think about the word in a way that's incredibly unnatural and shouldn't ever be thought of, and "shillelagh" will seem perfectly right. It's just one of those words Man Was Not Meant To Attempt To Spell.

    I mean, thinking about things like that has gotten me this far...

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I think you undercounted the utility of a couple of paladin spells.

    Wrathful Smite should be at least sky blue. For one, it's it's really cheap to use. But the big deal with this spell is that ending the fear effect is a check, not a save. Meaning: not only does the enemy not get a proficiency bonus but they also roll disadvantage on it. It goes very nicely with:

    Find Steed. You should pretty much always have this cast during the downtime; it's free! But the big deal is getting to Twin certain spells that normally can't be twinned. Like the aforementioned Wrathful Smite, Eyebite, Armor of Agathys, Hex, etc.

    Protection from Good/Evil and Lesser Restoration, after a certain point in the game, should be one of those spells that gets always prepped. Quickened Lesser Restoration is not only good for preserving your regular action when you get poisoned, but giving one or two people a 'get out of jail free' card against blindness and paralysis is life-saving.

    I think you're undercounting Elemental Weapon some. It's really greedy with spell slots, but gives a very big damage boost if you, say, use it with a certain Sorcerer Path. 2d4 + 6 extra damage on all of your attacks for a 5th-level spell slot ain't shabby.


    Favored Soul Domains:
    Grave is at least a black choice if no one else in the party has access to these spells.
    Forge is at least as good as Trickery. It hands out a bunch of good to great spells -- Shield, Heat Metal, Magic Weapon, Protection From Energy, Wall of Fire, and Animate Objects. Heat Metal in particular is excellent for Sorcerers. You get a persistent source of bonus action damage that can knock weapons out of the person's hands and/or inflict constant disadvantage. You can upcast it for DoT that would make Spiritual Weapon jealous (3d8 + CHA versus 5d8? No contest.) or you can just Twin it for a good source of control. You won't be able to use it every combat, but when you can it's amazing.


    As far as feats go: I'm wondering why you're sold on Blade Mastery but not Fell-Handed? I think swords are generically better to specialize in because there are a lot more sword-based magical items than other types -- but not only do you get a +1 bonus to attack, but one of the abilities is really, really strong. Getting to force prone if you have advantage and both attack rolls would have hit is crazy powerful, since there's no save or size limit associated with it.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Also, since sorcerer/paladins have a rather ugly tendency of running out of resources I think it might be helpful for the guide to have a sample resource budget for the various breakpoints of play. Obviously this isn't meant to be set in stone; if you get ambushed by an ancient red dragon or a bunch of intellect devourers then screw the budget! Still, it's nice to have a guideline for how much encounters should be draining you over the course of a workday.

    The DMG recommends 6-8 encounters. That's fair. Let's assume that you have an 8-Encounter Workday and also assume that you have two short rests in between. So, for example, a daily budget for various builds might look something like this:

    For a level 6 paladin / level 4 sorcerer:
    Spoiler
    Show

    2 - Freebies: You shouldn't be expending any of your daily resources on these. Maybe a level 1 or 2 spell slot if you didn't expend them or sorcery points you had budgeted in any other encounters.
    3 - Standard Encounter: Budget between all of them a 1st-level spell and a 2nd level spell. Note that by 'budget a spell' we mean use it either to cast a spell, get more sorcery points, or just straight-up use it for smiting. You may need to use a channel divinity to make things go smoother or if you just have the PERFECT use.
    2 - Taxing Encounter: Budget 2 sorcery points for each and a 2nd and 3rd level spell. You will probably need to use a channel divinity, too.
    1 - Boss Encounter: You should budget 4 sorcery points (Meaning, two 1st level spells converted; yes, you will be outside your budget if previous encounters were taxing) and a 3rd and 4th level spell. They may get converted into smites, especially since you can't actually cast proper spells out of those slots. Use your channel divinity now.


    For a level 2 paladin / level 13 sorcerer:
    Spoiler
    Show

    2 - Freebies: Budget a sorcery point and a 1st level spell for each between the two of them.
    3 - Standard Encounter: Budget 3-4 sorcery points for each combat, along with two or three of a level 1, 2, and 3 spell.
    2 - Taxing Encounter: Budget 10 sorcery points between the two combats. This means that you will have to spend about 2nd and third level spell in conjunction with spare sorcery points to meet this goal; if you feel more comfortable actually casting spells (hello, Hypnotic Pattern and Mirror Image) then do so. You get 3 4th-level and 1 5th-level spells to play with between these combats.
    1 - Boss Encounter: Don't go into this with less than 8 sorcery points. Note that 1st and 3rd level spells are the most efficient to convert, so plan accordingly. Your 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slot should come into play now if they weren't already used.


    The above chart is why I'm big into 1st and 2nd-level spells that are really strong and are good your whole career. Bless, Wrathful Smite, Mirror Image/Blur, Shield, and Web are your dads, you live in their basement, and you should ask them very nicely for your allowance. Playing a sorcerer/paladin gives you a LOT of options but as the OP very wisely noted running prematurely empty is the Achilles' heel of the class.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2017-01-02 at 06:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Edit: NM, my suggestion can't be done with point buy.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2017-01-02 at 10:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Why there is no mention of Sentinel? I always think GWM PAM + Sentinel is a good Combo for Paladins. You keep your enemies close. You can even smite them before they hit you (because of reach) and then they can't even move because you hit them.
    Last edited by Mordrigar; 2017-01-04 at 06:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordrigar View Post
    Why there is no mention of Sentinel? I always think GWM + Sentinel is a good Combo for Paladins. You keep your enemies close. You can even smite them before they hit you (because of reach) and then they can't even move because you hit them.
    I think you mean PAM + Sentinel.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordrigar View Post
    Why there is no mention of Sentinel? I always think GWM + Sentinel is a good Combo for Paladins. You keep your enemies close. You can even smite them before they hit you (because of reach) and then they can't even move because you hit them.
    Assuming you mean PAM + Sentinel, because this build requires at least 3 ASIs (and usually 4) + warcaster so unless you're a variant human you don't have the resources for it. (and even if are a variant human - a two feat investment is not worth the lose of ASIs)

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Just curious, I was thinking of running this setup. What would be the pros and cons of going Paladin 5\Fighter 2\sorcerer 13? I mean you would get 7th level spells, and an action surge to go full nova...twice in a single turn. there doesn't seem to be too much of a down side other than losing your aura of protection if you went paladin 6.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorin! View Post
    Just curious, I was thinking of running this setup. What would be the pros and cons of going Paladin 5\Fighter 2\sorcerer 13? I mean you would get 7th level spells, and an action surge to go full nova...twice in a single turn. there doesn't seem to be too much of a down side other than losing your aura of protection if you went paladin 6.
    Losing Aura of Protection is a huge deal, though. Even just having +3 to all of your saves is a big boost to your (let alone your friends') survivability. It's seriously the best single feature (aside from spells) in the game. If you gave me the choice between Aura of Protection and two of Smite/Channel Divinity/Paladin Spells/Fighting style I'd pick Aura of Protection.

    As you can see from my proposed budget, Sorceradins are actually pretty tight on resources as-is. Action Surge seems like it'd help, but losing out on metamagic and spells/level already puts you back and you'd be pretty much only using Action Surge for extra attacks due to the limits on spells + bonus actions. You can certainly Nova harder than before (Hold Person plus TWO attack actions), but sorceradins already don't have a problem providing burst damage on demand, so long as they budget properly. I guess it'd also depend on whether you were going Sword and Board or Great Weapon. I don't see the minor boost in damage being worth it for S&B, but it could definitely be worth it for GWF.

    I think two fighter levels might be better for a Favored Soul sorcerer that only took two paladin levels. If you completely threw caution to the wind, you could have a sequence with 20 STR and Great Weapon Fighting that went:

    Bonus Action: Quickened Hold Person/Monster + Action: Two Greatsword Attacks + Action Surge: Two Greatsword Attacks

    For a total of 16d6/56 (sword) + 40d8/180 (smite) + 40 (GWF) + 20 (strength), average 296(!!!) damage. Granted, it'd be at the cost of completely blowing a resource. But when something's gotta die, they gotta die.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2017-01-06 at 03:50 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Also, since sorcerer/paladins have a rather ugly tendency of running out of resources I think it might be helpful for the guide to have a sample resource budget for the various breakpoints of play. Obviously this isn't meant to be set in stone; if you get ambushed by an ancient red dragon or a bunch of intellect devourers then screw the budget! Still, it's nice to have a guideline for how much encounters should be draining you over the course of a workday.

    The DMG recommends 6-8 encounters. That's fair. Let's assume that you have an 8-Encounter Workday and also assume that you have two short rests in between. So, for example, a daily budget for various builds might look something like this:

    For a level 6 paladin / level 4 sorcerer:
    Spoiler
    Show

    2 - Freebies: You shouldn't be expending any of your daily resources on these. Maybe a level 1 or 2 spell slot if you didn't expend them or sorcery points you had budgeted in any other encounters.
    3 - Standard Encounter: Budget between all of them a 1st-level spell and a 2nd level spell. Note that by 'budget a spell' we mean use it either to cast a spell, get more sorcery points, or just straight-up use it for smiting. You may need to use a channel divinity to make things go smoother or if you just have the PERFECT use.
    2 - Taxing Encounter: Budget 2 sorcery points for each and a 2nd and 3rd level spell. You will probably need to use a channel divinity, too.
    1 - Boss Encounter: You should budget 4 sorcery points (Meaning, two 1st level spells converted; yes, you will be outside your budget if previous encounters were taxing) and a 3rd and 4th level spell. They may get converted into smites, especially since you can't actually cast proper spells out of those slots. Use your channel divinity now.


    For a level 2 paladin / level 13 sorcerer:
    Spoiler
    Show

    2 - Freebies: Budget a sorcery point and a 1st level spell for each between the two of them.
    3 - Standard Encounter: Budget 3-4 sorcery points for each combat, along with two or three of a level 1, 2, and 3 spell.
    2 - Taxing Encounter: Budget 10 sorcery points between the two combats. This means that you will have to spend about 2nd and third level spell in conjunction with spare sorcery points to meet this goal; if you feel more comfortable actually casting spells (hello, Hypnotic Pattern and Mirror Image) then do so. You get 3 4th-level and 1 5th-level spells to play with between these combats.
    1 - Boss Encounter: Don't go into this with less than 8 sorcery points. Note that 1st and 3rd level spells are the most efficient to convert, so plan accordingly. Your 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slot should come into play now if they weren't already used.


    The above chart is why I'm big into 1st and 2nd-level spells that are really strong and are good your whole career. Bless, Wrathful Smite, Mirror Image/Blur, Shield, and Web are your dads, you live in their basement, and you should ask them very nicely for your allowance. Playing a sorcerer/paladin gives you a LOT of options but as the OP very wisely noted running prematurely empty is the Achilles' heel of the class.
    The idea of budgeting is great, thanks for this. Any guidelines or rules of thumb you used? Like % of resources for each type of fight?Having two examples is nice but I'd like to be able to extrapolate this to different levels and different builds (like my current pal 2 / wild sorc 3). I'm finding that I have so few resources, and can burn them so quickly, that I'm actually underusing them... saving them for big fights that either never happen, or end up being over too quickly to use what I saved for them. So being able to think through a budget would be very helpful.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    How about adding in the Mobile feat? It does wonders with booming blade!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    How about adding in the Mobile feat? It does wonders with booming blade!
    While this is a great strategy, the Sorcadin has other things it wants to do more. If you want to do this, I would go Arcane Trickster or Swash/Lock because you get Sneak Attack for extra damage and Cunning Action/Fancy Footwork to get away without the feat tax.

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    Question Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    why not dump str? the pre-request for multyclassing into paladin is 13 Str OR 13 Cha right?

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by detectivecain View Post
    why not dump str? the pre-request for multyclassing into paladin is 13 Str OR 13 Cha right?
    It is actually 13 in both str and cha to multiclass into or out of paladin.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Really, really, really great (and fun to read) guide! Even though I'm still kinda new, this is the best thing on anything 5e I've read, period.

    Still can't decide if this is the build for me, however.

    While I enjoy spells and having lots of utility options normally, if I was in it for the insane nova this time around, essentially having one ridiculous burst of damage a day, is this build a good idea? If so, what can I do to maximize the nova?

    Edit: Situation
    Spoiler
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    Hey all, I want to make a super nova focused paladin.

    Soon I'll be in a campaign with a bunch of new players. I wanted a diverse class to cover anything they struggle with. I also didn't want to make a super optimized offensive build that would outshine them. I decided on probably paladin for good coverage of roles. Still, my inner munchkin wants something.

    I want to play a character who goes overkill. He can't help himself, even if it gimps him for a good portion of the day (let the others shine). Give me my nova to shine, otherwise I'll play with support and mediocrity. This guy seems bad ass while also funny to play.

    So I'll focus on crazy smiting for nova. Everything else is open, as long as it helps the concept. Multiclass and UA allowed.

    I was considering Paladin/Sorc, Paladin/Warlock, or maybe even some 2 level dip into fighter. Straight paladin doesn't seem too bad either.


    Again, thanks for the guide and thanks for any help!
    Last edited by Rapatto; 2017-01-13 at 03:53 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapatto View Post
    Really, really, really great (and fun to read) guide! Even though I'm still kinda new, this is the best thing on anything 5e I've read, period.

    Still can't decide if this is the build for me, however.

    While I enjoy spells and having lots of utility options normally, if I was in it for the insane nova this time around, essentially having one ridiculous burst of damage a day, is this build a good idea? If so, what can I do to maximize the nova?

    Edit: Situation
    Spoiler
    Show
    Hey all, I want to make a super nova focused paladin.

    Soon I'll be in a campaign with a bunch of new players. I wanted a diverse class to cover anything they struggle with. I also didn't want to make a super optimized offensive build that would outshine them. I decided on probably paladin for good coverage of roles. Still, my inner munchkin wants something.

    I want to play a character who goes overkill. He can't help himself, even if it gimps him for a good portion of the day (let the others shine). Give me my nova to shine, otherwise I'll play with support and mediocrity. This guy seems bad ass while also funny to play.

    So I'll focus on crazy smiting for nova. Everything else is open, as long as it helps the concept. Multiclass and UA allowed.

    I was considering Paladin/Sorc, Paladin/Warlock, or maybe even some 2 level dip into fighter. Straight paladin doesn't seem too bad either.


    Again, thanks for the guide and thanks for any help!
    I would say so.

    There are a few basic options for Nova damage in 5e. Assassinate (Assassin Rogue), Action Surge (Fighter), Smite (Paladin), Metamagic (Sorcerer), and Overchannel (Evoker Wizard).

    Assassinate is highly situational, and if played RAW, probably won't go off reliably.
    Action Surge isn't bad, but on its own it doesn't do much, and you can only really do it once.
    Smite is reliably powerful, and its great to keep in your pocket for a critical, but Paladins don't really have the slots to do it reliably.
    Metamagic is solid, but Quicken is weakened by the fact that your second spell needs to be a cantrip.
    Overchannel is cool once you get up to 14th level, but again, its a very restricted resource.

    The Sorcadin gets two of those Nova features.

    The weakness of the Smite (limited usages) is mitigated by the Sorcerer spell slots. A level 11 Paladin can drop three smites at 4d8.

    A level 6 Paladin/5 Sorcerer can drop those same three smites and can also drop two smites at 5d8.

    If they're really hungry for max damage smites, they can gobble up their sorcery points and low-level slots. If they want to stock up on high-octane Smite fuel, a Pal6/Sorc5 can send a total of 24 points through the machine, which gives them a total of six max damage Smites to throw around - and very little else.

    They also take Metamagic and mitigate its weaknesses. Sure, a Sorcerer 11 can Quicken Hold Person, but their nova on that turn is then limited to cantrips. The Pal 6/Sorc 5 can use that Hold Person and then stroll up with two critical smites, which out-damage cantrips by just a little bit.

    Spoiler: More Comparisons
    Show

    A level 11 Draconic Sorcerer can cast Disintegrate and Quicken a Ray of Frost. If everything goes off, he's dealing a total of 10d6+40+3d8+5 damage. That's 93.5 damage at the cost of his sole 6th level slot and 2 sorcery points.

    My in-play character, at Warlock2/Sorcerer9 casts Quickened Scorching Ray out of his 5th level slot and follows with Eldritch Blast. Assuming the target is Hexed (so, round 2) and everything hits, he deals 12d6+6d6+3d10+3d6+15 damage. That's an average of 104.5 damage at the cost of my sole 5th level slot, 2 sorcery points, and the assumption that Hex is on.

    The example Level 11 Sorcadin drops a Quickened Hold Person and smites twice. He deals an average of 114 damage - assuming a modest Str of 16 and a Longsword. It costs him a 2nd level spell, 2 sorcery points, and his two 4th level spell slots.


    I mean, this is all just reiterated theory as first outlined in the pros section.

    Is it theoretically possible to out-nova a well-built Sorcadin? Possibly. But not very likely, especially not without some bending of the rules or DM hand-waving.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    I would say so.
    Thanks for the help! Probably gonna do it then.

    Now I just need to decide on my weapon.

    Thoughts on 6/X vs 2/x in relation to nova?
    Last edited by Rapatto; 2017-01-13 at 02:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapatto View Post
    Thanks for the help! Probably gonna do it then.

    Now I just need to decide on my weapon.

    Thoughts on 6/X vs 2/x in relation to nova?
    A 6/X, unless they are a Favored Soul, is just plain better at a singular nova in terms of raw damage. Extra attack is a huge deal for novas, not only because of the spells-per-round limit but also for smites. I suspect that the best one-shot Nova specialist would be a 2d6-weapon wielding Paladin 2 / Fighter 2 / Favored Soul 6+, though, as seen upthread.

    That said, unless your DM prefers 2-3 encounter workdays, you generally don't need to lay down that kind of ass-kicking on demand. Quickened Hold Person + 2 Attacks + Smite is generally more than enough; less than <3% of monsters of a reasonable CR, including boss monsters, won't be reduced to less than half hit points from that. Remember, you have other party members, too. If you really want to bring the pain, it's usually better to Hold Person/Monster or even Twin a Haste/Improved Invisibility on the other frontliners and coordinate an alpha strike.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Also: what has been peoples' experiences getting magical items in home games or in AL?

    I know most of these guides build around the idea that you won't be getting any at all. Which is fair, because there's no guarantee unless you're playing a module, but it's been my experience that DMs, no matter how stingy the game, end up handing out at LEAST a few +1 armor/shields/weapons by level 10 or so.

    In particular, the assumption that you're going to be getting a magic shield completely upends some assumptions. While the GWM build is only slightly worse than a Sword and Board build, the marginal utility of a +2 Greatsword in no way compares to getting that of a +2 shield or even a +1 shield. A +2 armor and +1 shield, not unheard of for a level 12+ character, makes the base AC of a Sorceradin a whopping 23-24. And it's also straight-up easier to get a +1 armor, shield, and weapon that it is to get a +3 weapon.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Also: what has been peoples' experiences getting magical items in home games or in AL?

    I know most of these guides build around the idea that you won't be getting any at all. Which is fair, because there's no guarantee unless you're playing a module, but it's been my experience that DMs, no matter how stingy the game, end up handing out at LEAST a few +1 armor/shields/weapons by level 10 or so.

    In particular, the assumption that you're going to be getting a magic shield completely upends some assumptions. While the GWM build is only slightly worse than a Sword and Board build, the marginal utility of a +2 Greatsword in no way compares to getting that of a +2 shield or even a +1 shield. A +2 armor and +1 shield, not unheard of for a level 12+ character, makes the base AC of a Sorceradin a whopping 23-24. And it's also straight-up easier to get a +1 armor, shield, and weapon that it is to get a +3 weapon.
    Magic item attainment in AL depends pretty wildly on how many people are at the table and how closely etiquette is followed.

    If you consistently have 3 people at a table and roll on everything you can and/or play with pushovers, you're going to get more than the guy who is at a 7 people table and only rolls on things he feels is best suited for his character.

    In my experience, a character can generally get one magic item per tier reliably. I have three T2 characters, one with an uncommon, one with a rare, and one with a very rare - the very rare dropped in an Epic.

    Note that a +1 Armor has a higher rarity than a +1 weapon and should be considered accordingly.

    Yes, if you get 3 magic items on your character, S&B might be better for you than if you get 3 magic items on your Greatsword.

    There is another factor to consider, though.

    A S&B build wants to pump Charisma most.
    A GWM build wants to pump Strength most.

    There are Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Belts of Giant Strength. There is no Cloak of Charisma. This allows a character to bypass the 'ASI tax' that the GWM builds face, and also frees up their point buy a little more.

    There are also ways to boost Con, which helps mitigate some of the pain of having a lower AC than your S&B build.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Also: what has been peoples' experiences getting magical items in home games or in AL?

    I know most of these guides build around the idea that you won't be getting any at all. Which is fair, because there's no guarantee unless you're playing a module, but it's been my experience that DMs, no matter how stingy the game, end up handing out at LEAST a few +1 armor/shields/weapons by level 10 or so.

    In particular, the assumption that you're going to be getting a magic shield completely upends some assumptions. While the GWM build is only slightly worse than a Sword and Board build, the marginal utility of a +2 Greatsword in no way compares to getting that of a +2 shield or even a +1 shield. A +2 armor and +1 shield, not unheard of for a level 12+ character, makes the base AC of a Sorceradin a whopping 23-24. And it's also straight-up easier to get a +1 armor, shield, and weapon that it is to get a +3 weapon.
    These days in AL if you're going to play into Tier 2 and have a way to complete a Secret Mission then you 100% can get a +1 Shield. It's available for purchase from your faction in exchange for gold and some downtime days. Beyond that a lot of your flexibility depends on having the ability to visit cons that have Fai Chen, if you can do that then you're basically always going to be able to get a +1 Shield if you want one. Similar with +1 weapons, or +2 weapons if you've got access to a Rare item and can visit Fai Chen.
    Last edited by rooneg; 2017-01-14 at 08:24 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    If anyone's interested, I've got some thoughts on Volo's races. Its my favorite 5e book so far, and I've had a chance to play most of them (though not as sorcadins). Hopefully it will help until Gastronomie has a chance to offer a more insightful appraisal.

    Spoiler: VGtM
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    Aasimar: +2 Cha is nice. *Darkvision and the light cantrip are the first example of Voloís built-in redundancy. *Fallen is probably your best choice for the +Str, though Scourge isnít bad either. *Wisdom isnít very important, so Iíd consider Protector your Ďweakestí option here.

    Kenku: Not great. *The racial score increases arenít all that helpful. *The traits donít really lend themselves to your build either. *Stealth and Deception arenít main focuses of a Sorcadin. Slightly better if you have the DM Dexterity pass, but there isnít much else going for it.

    Lizardfolk: So, you want to rely on four ability scores? *Hereís your chance. *Your Natural Armor is inferior unless youíre pumping Dex. Your Hungry Jaws wonít be used because your Bonus Action will generally be consumed (heh) by GWM or Quicken Spell. *Again, slightly better if youíre getting the DM Dexterity Pass. *Also could make for an interesting naked Sorcadin if you roll stats. *

    Tabaxi: Again, another decent option . . . if youíve got the Dexterity pass. *+Cha is nice, and you canít complain about Climb speeds and Darkvision. *Feline Agility lets you get into melee nice and fast - which is where you want to be. *Even for a Strength build, the +Dex isnít too bad. *Bringing an 8 Dex to a 10 Dex isnít really a waste.

    Triton: Great scores for you. *Your three most important abilities all bump up one (see also: Half-Elf). *Resistance to Cold, some free spells, and a Swim Speed all round out a pretty solid option.

    Bugbear: Ah, the sneaky bruiser. *Actually not a terrible choice. *+1 Dex can still be useful for a Strength build. *If you can sneak up on the opponent (perhaps facilitated by a Sorcerer spell), adding 7 damage to your first hit is good. *If you can guarantee a crit (perhaps with a Quickened Hold Person before you strike) this adds a few more d6. *Depending on DM interpretation, Long-Limbed may have some wacky interactions with GFB.

    Goblin: Not good for most sorcadins. *You can get Darkvision from better options, Fury of the Small doesnít contribute enough to warrant taking this, and your Nimble Escape is for doing things that most Sorcadins wonít be interested in doing.

    Hobgoblin: Like the Lizardfolk, I hate that it feels weak for you. *The proficiencies are redundant, you donít need +Int, and Saving Face lets you be better at something youíre probably already good at. *Up to +5 to that Concentration save is pretty decent, but youíd be better off taking VHuman for Resilient or Warcaster if youíre that concerned.

    Kobold: Oh boy. *If youíre playing RAW, this is a tough one. *-2 Str means you need to put a 15 into whatís probably going to be your dump stat in order to build Sorcadin. *Pack Tactics is very, very powerful and is going to negate your Sunlight Sensitivity most of the time. *Remember how the advantage rules work. *Even if youíre in bright sunlight, throwing a javelin from long range, while prone, against a prone enemy, if you have one ally adjacent to the target, you roll it with neither disadvantage nor advantage. *If youíre not in bright sunlight, you practically have advantage on every attack. *If you get DM Dexterity Pass, this is much, much better.

    Orc: Its a worse Half-Orc. *Half-Orcís Relentless Endurance is really helpful for a relatively squishy Sorcadin, and the Orc doesnít get it. *At least you didnít need that Intelligence. *If youíre that interested in Aggressive, Tabaxiís Feline Agility fills the same function with less hassle.

    Yuan-Ti Pureblood: *low whistle* here it is, kids. *Weíd probably prefer that +Int were +Str or +Con, but thereís enough here to make it work. *Free, useful spells that run off your Charisma. *Advantage on all saves against spells or magical effects also mitigates some of the risk of Wild Magic Sorcadins - four of the negative results are self-centered spells that youíll probably save against.. *Complete Immunity to Poison and the Poisoned Condition completely negates one of the most common weaknesses Sorcadins have. Three languages, just because.

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Could use some advice on deciding whether to go greatsword/longsword path.

    Currently my sorcadin is Pal 2/Wild Sorc 3. I'm planning on doing the 3/17 build since high-powered sorcery and more spell slots is more appealing to me than Extra Attack and Aura of Protection. I went sorcadin instead of straight sorcerer, though, because I wanted to have some front-line ability and nice burstiness for boss fights.

    I had planned on doing the sword-and-board route for versatility and to keep things simple, as this is my first sorcadin... next level (at sorc 4) I was going to pick up Warcaster, then max out Cha.

    But, I just got an opportunity to trade my Staff of Swarming Insects (which is nice, but was getting little use) for a Flametongue Greatsword. And it's making me seriously consider taking the greatsword path instead. Quickened booming/greenflame, followed by another one as my attack, with max smite and an extra 2d6 on each from the flametongue, plus possibly -5/+10 from GWM, is looking pretty appealing. In which case I'd pick up GWM next level instead of Warcaster. And then focus on boosting strength either via ASIs or (preferably) by picking up gauntlets of ogre power or a belt of giant strength.

    Is this a good path to take? Is a flametongue weapon enough of a boost to switch paths, or am I going to regret this decision?

    Note: Since I was originally planning to pick up Warcaster instead of Resilient Con, I have an even Con score (16). Also I took Defense fighting style at Pal 2.
    Note 2: This is for AL play, if that matters.
    Last edited by Zene; 2017-01-16 at 03:26 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Is this a good path to take? Is a flametongue weapon enough of a boost to switch paths, or am I going to regret this decision?
    I think a flametongue weapon is awesome. It increases your damage output by ~7 damage per hit, although the damage type is fire so it's the most common resistance in the game. Note that it doesn't give you any to-hit bonus, which makes it marginally less good with GWM than a +2 Greatsword (the equivalent rarity, which you could probably get from Fai Chen if you brought your staff to a con and traded it).

    In the end, you have to weight the added AC you'd get from a shield vs the potential additional damage you'd get from the Greatsword. I don't think there's a wrong answer, it really just depends what sort of build you want.

  27. - Top - End - #237
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Could use some advice on deciding whether to go greatsword/longsword path.

    Note: Since I was originally planning to pick up Warcaster instead of Resilient Con, I have an even Con score (16). Also I took Defense fighting style at Pal 2.
    Note 2: This is for AL play, if that matters.
    I think if you got to keep your staff it might be worth it to go GWM. You get advantage on all of your attacks even against creatures with true sight. Without it you don't have much to offset the -5 to really max out GWM and you don't have extra attack to really maximize he extra damage from flametongue. You are kind of like a rogue you want to hit and smite, not miss since you have only one opportunity to hit hard.

  28. - Top - End - #238
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by rooneg View Post
    Note that it doesn't give you any to-hit bonus, which makes it marginally less good with GWM than a +2 Greatsword (the equivalent rarity, which you could probably get from Fai Chen if you brought your staff to a con and traded it).
    Hmm.. the +2 is that valuable? I suppose I could always trade the Flametongue to Fai Chen for the +2. I do plan on having Bless up, using Tides of Chaos for advantage when possible, and probably taking Devotion at Pal3 for the +hit bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    I think if you got to keep your staff it might be worth it to go GWM. You get advantage on all of your attacks even against creatures with true sight.
    Yeah, I was super psyched to get the staff in part for that reason... but I'm finding it's rare that I actually get to use that feature. Either it's a battle I don't have time to prep for (and so I don't want to lose an action to activate it); or the battlefield is too cramped, and I can't activate the swarm without really messing up my allies since I can't back up far enough to clear both them and their target. That said, it's only been a few sessions, so maybe I should stick with it a bit longer to see if that changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    you don't have extra attack to really maximize he extra damage from flametongue. You are kind of like a rogue you want to hit and smite, not miss since you have only one opportunity to hit hard.
    Well I can quicken GFB/BB for another weapon attack, and if there are two adjacent enemies I can twin BB, so it's really 2-3 attacks when I'm bursting. But yeah not quite as good as Extra Attack.

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Hmm.. the +2 is that valuable? I suppose I could always trade the Flametongue to Fai Chen for the +2. I do plan on having Bless up, using Tides of Chaos for advantage when possible, and probably taking Devotion at Pal3 for the +hit bonus.
    Look at it this way. If you're attacking an AC 15 target with a +7 attack bonus and a +4 damage bonus you'll hit 65% of the time. So your average DPR is 0.65 * the weapon's average damage (8.5*0.65=5.5 for a longsword, 11*0.65=7 for a greatsword, 18*0.65=11 for a flametongue greatsword). If you bump your attack and damage up by 2 your chance of hitting goes to 75% and your average damage goes to 7.8 for the longsword and 9.75 for the greatsword. So it's just below the flametongue greatsword for straight average damage, but you're hitting 10% more, which means 10% more chances to spend a smite (can't do that if you miss). I'm not going to do the math for the -5/+10, but it's similar.

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by rooneg View Post
    Look at it this way. If you're attacking an AC 15 target with a +7 attack bonus and a +4 damage bonus you'll hit 65% of the time. So your average DPR is 0.65 * the weapon's average damage (8.5*0.65=5.5 for a longsword, 11*0.65=7 for a greatsword, 18*0.65=11 for a flametongue greatsword). If you bump your attack and damage up by 2 your chance of hitting goes to 75% and your average damage goes to 7.8 for the longsword and 9.75 for the greatsword. So it's just below the flametongue greatsword for straight average damage, but you're hitting 10% more, which means 10% more chances to spend a smite (can't do that if you miss). I'm not going to do the math for the -5/+10, but it's similar.
    Ah great point, I was forgetting to consider the missed smite damage. Thank you!

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