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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DeWittInTheRoad View Post
    Assuming you mean PAM + Sentinel, because this build requires at least 3 ASIs (and usually 4) + warcaster so unless you're a variant human you don't have the resources for it. (and even if are a variant human - a two feat investment is not worth the lose of ASIs)
    This is fair, polearm master plus sentinel is probably a combo with too much overhead for a sorcadin build.

    However, Sentinel on it's own may still warrant a place. Yeah, Warcaster for Booming Blade OA's might get a monster to hold still to avoid extra damage, but there are some cases where you'd rather just deny them the option outright. For instance, an oathbreaker looking to prevent an enemy from escaping his fear effect, or a shadow sorcerer locking an opponent down in her darkness bubble.

    Combine with Tunnel Fighter to lock down multiple enemies at once for some decent crowd control. Maybe even use a polearm for reach, though some of the effects of sentinel only work at 5', so maybe not. Even if you do use a Polearm, you may end up just skipping polearm mastery, whenever you can lock down more than one opponent you'd be using your bonus action on tunnel fighting anyway.


    Here's a sample build sketch through level 5, though I'm sure someone with more optimizing prowess can do better:

    Black Hole Knight
    A darkness so deep that nothing can escape.
    Spoiler
    Show



    assumptions:

    * DM lets you play Oathbreaker Paladin from the DMG as an alternate paladin oath, possibly coming up with an actual code of conduct to go with it (maybe cribbing from the paladin UA oath of tyranny). This is a stretch because the subclass is presented to use for npc villains in particular, and the default fluff is very much about falling from grace, not starting out on a road to darkness. Amusingly enough, you could start out as a paladin of Tyranny, and then 'fall' into oathbreaker by showing too much compassion.

    * DM lets you use the Shadow Sorcerer origin and Tunnel Fighter fighting style from the 'Light, Dark, Underdark' UA. This is iffy since UA in general doesn't have the best reputation, and these two elements in particular are among the UA content often pointed to as overpowered.

    * DM lets you take cantrips from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. This is usually fine.

    * Your party is cool hanging out with a badass dark knight more interested in debuffing & locking down your enemies rather than buffing up your friends. Since you'll be starting life as a paladin, your party might have a lot of expectations that might cause them to become frustrated with you even if you're contributing just fine. Same sort of situation as a 3.5 era cleric who was expected to spend their spell slots healing and could get in trouble with the party if they were using those slots for other things - even if those other things were a better use of resources.

    It will help if you can get someone else in the party to also play a paladin, so that they can hand out aura of protection and bless. That way, the rest of your friends won't be mad at you for being stingy with your spell slots and punishing to anyone, friend or foe, who gets too close to you. The paladin UA tyranny and treachery paladins would get along well with you, and mechanically you like having the Tyrant's fear-penalty aura around. Devotion and Ancients paladins would probably look a bit askance at you, though. Personality-wise, a vengeance paladin will either be your best friend (she agrees with using any means necessary to defeat evil, even turning its own power against it) or your worst enemy (any sign of corruption must be punished... with a vengeance), no inbetween at all, so exercise caution.


    Human Variant
    Post racial stats: Str 16, Dex 8, Con15, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16
    human bonus feat: sentinel
    skills: standard paladin/sorcerer stuff up, but shame on you if you're not proficient in intimidate
    weapon preference: halberd (reach, can cast non-material somatic spells without warcaster feat)


    Level one: paladin. At this level you've got ok HP and decent defenses - not as good as if you used a shield, but still workable. Plus 5 points of bonus healing a day. With sentinel and reach you're about as sticky as you could expect to be at this level, though limited reactions for opportunity attacks are an issue.

    Level two: paladin (tunnel fighter). Limited reactions are no longer an issue. Wade into enemies, knock one on the head, put up tunnel fighter. Enemies within your reach will have to burn their action on withdrawal to leave, while those actually adjacent to you won't even be able to do that. And if you really want to punish someone for trying, you've got a couple smites per day to do it.

    Level three: Paladin (oathbreaker). 1/short rest friendly burst fear, and opponents who fail the first save don't even get another unless they can get 30+ feat away from you, which you're not letting them do any time soon, are you? Suddenly you're a board control monster. Oh, and if you happen to run into an undead monster with poor saves, you can dominate it instead.


    - now, you could keep right on with oathbreaker paladin all the way to level 20, picking up extra attack, aura of protection, aura of hate, improved divine smite, picking up resilient con and maxing out your strength and cha (or just one or the other and grabbing polearm master for when you want to spend your bonus action hating on one dude than locking down several). But if we're focusing specifically on the stickiness/attack of opportunity stuff, I think shifting over to shadow sorcerer here is a good call, at least for a while, not the least of which because paladin auras tend to make your friends want to bunch up next to you, and we want to make 'next to you' exactly the worst place anyone could be.


    So instead:
    Level Four: Sorcerer (shadow). gets you up to four first level spell slots per day, which you can spend on smite like you have been, or you can spend on shield for when one of the targets you've locked down actually lands a hit on you. Sadly, this costs a reaction, but you don't care, because you make opportunity attacks without spending reactions. Expeditious retreat can also be useful for positioning the control zone that is your very presence. You also pick up darkvision and several cantrips, including:

    * green flame blade - which will help with your lagging on-turn damage, since you aren't getting your second attack, at least not any time soon.

    * booming blade - which helps with your stickiness by tagging a target in reach for extra damage if they move. Use this against an enemy 10 feet away from you - they'll take that extra damage whether they withdraw away from you or advance to hit you back.

    * Lightning Lure - tag an opponent 15 feet away and pull them adjacent to get stuck.


    Level Five: Here we go! Here's what we're talking about! twice per day, cast Darkness on yourself, but you can see through it. Enemies that can't see through it (and that's the vast majority of enemies) will have disadvantage on attack rolls against you, while you have advantage on rolls against them. combine with sentinel and reach to keep enemies trapped in the darkness. Note that enemies in the dark are not automatically hidden, your party still knows where they are to attack them, and the disadvantage for attacking blind will be countered out by advantage for attacking a blind target. That said, parties still don't appreciate being blinded, so you'll mostly charge forward into (or, with expeditious retreat, around and behind) a cluster of enemies before activating this ability. Your party can deal with any that escape your bubble, or just hurl fiery death into the bubble - you can take it, the enemies won't.

    Notably, most teleportation requires line of sight, allowing you to effectively shut down one of the few options for breaking out of sentinel. And remember, if confines are tight in a particular fight and you can't use darkness without catching the party, you still have that party-friendly fear pulse from the Oathbreaker to fall back on.


    After that? Just mix sorcerer and paladin levels to your heart's content. More Sorcerer means more casting, more shield, more sorcery points for more darkness bubbles, maybe some area affects with the shape metamagic to make them party friendly for when the fighting space is too cramped for darkness, maybe some quicken to up your damage when there aren't enough enemies around to be worth burning a bonus action on tunnel fighting. More Paladin means getting that second attack, getting that aura of protection for your own benefit if not for the party's, some interesting spell options sorcerers don't get (summon steed, animate dead, etc), aura of hate for more damage to both your on-turn and opportunity attacks.

    Most any mix of the two is fine at this point, but at character level 20, your max levels of paladin should be one of the following: 3 (oathbreaker), 4 (asi), 5 (extra attack), 6 (aura of protection), 7 (aura of hate), 8 (asi), 9 (lv3 paladin spells), 11 (improved divine smite), or 12 (asi). Pick up resilient con to round of your con score and keep your concentration spells up, then max strength then charisma if favoring paladin, or charisma then strength if favoring sorcerer. If favoring paladin, and planning on taking it to exactly level 12, then you might consider polearm master for extra damage when you're up against just one opponent. Or you might not (see below).


    Options and Alternatives:

    weapons: While reach is useful for extending your control range, the strongest affects of sentinel are restricted to 5' anyway, so you could reasonably go with a greatsword instead of a glaive or halberd for a bit more damage. Or sword & board for a bit more defense, particularly with the grey hole variant below that takes warcaster instead of sentinel.

    Races: Wanting to take two feats means you're generally better off sticking to variant human, but Aasimar, triton, half elf, pureblood, or really any other race that might otherwise appeal to paladins are fair game. Fallen Aasimar in particular grants a decent daily fear effect plus damage boost.

    Paladin Oaths: the oathbreaker CD is fantastic for this build, but not necessary. You could conceivably stop at paladin two, or continue to paladin three with another oath. Oath of the Crown grants another way of chaining enemies to you. Oath of Treachery gets advantage against enemies that are adjacent to each other, which they will often be due to their inability to escape from you. Oath of Tyranny has a nice debuff on saves vs. fear, which goes well with the Fallen Aasimar racial, as well as fear spells you just cast with normal slots.

    Sorcerous Origins: Shadow is the overwhelming favorite here, it's basically the defining thematic and mechanical core of the entire build. A Tunnel Master / Sentinel build could work with other sorcerous origins, but... meh.

    Feats: As mentioned, Pole Arm Master synergizes in various ways with sentinel and tunnel fighter and oathbreaker, but those synergies don't play nice with each other or with the build concept. What I mean is, oathbreaker's damage boosts work well with PAM's bonus action attack, but that costs you the use of Tunnel Fighter for the round. And tunnel fighter, sentinel, and PAM can combine together to stop any enemies from approaching within 5 feet of you, but that's the complete opposite of what you're supposed to be doing. You're a cage, not a wall. On the other hand, Great Weapon Mastery can work well for you, since you'll often have advantage from darkness to get over the hit penalty. It's potentially a considerable damage boost, but loss of accuracy means more chance of enemies slipping out of your clutches. Warcaster (for booming blade opp attacks) presents a soft control alternative to warcaster (see Grey Hole below)

    Spells: I haven't looked too closely at spell selection, but the standard sorcadin spells, leaning towards zone control and area damage (with shape metamagic) would probably be the way to go. Spells that specifically work with quicken are less your thing since your bonus action mostly goes to Tunnel Fighter.


    Variant: the Grey Hole

    Sentinel is hard control - it shuts down options outright. This isn't exactly fun for the DM to try to work around, and her options for doing so aren't fun for you, either. Forcing lose/lose choices, while not as effective, is more engaging for everyone. If the DM feels like regular monsters don't even have the possibility of fighting effectively against you, she'll feel forced to include monsters that bypass your gimmicks outright. Enemies with opportunity-attack bypassing movement abilities. Enemies with blindsight or truesight or devilsight or tremorsense. Theoretically, these sorts of things are a minority of monsters, and the build should work fine in most situations, but if the DM starts tailoring encounters to get past your hard control, you can find yourself... well, you won't be ineffective, but you'll be a lot less to do than a sorcadin who spent their asi's, combat style, and other build choices on more straightforward abilities rather than one particular gimmick, however impressive that gimmick may be when it's working.

    So you might do the same build with warcaster instead of sentinel, so your tunnel fighting opp attacks threaten extra booming blade damage on movement instead of just cancelling it outright. The DM won't feel as much pressure to tailor specifically against you, since regular monsters can still function, you'll just punish them for doing so. Obviously you can't take warcaster at level one, but you could start with resilient con, and pick up warcaster at your first USI, whenever that happens to come.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2017-01-20 at 10:33 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Just wanted to say, thanks to Gastronomie and everyone else who's contributed to this. I've been trying to work out a good plate armor, polearm wielding gish (it's a concept that's always been near and dear to my heart) and I've juggled ideas from Bard to Bladesinger to PLD/WLK/FTR. It looks like PLD 6/SOR 14 has a reasonably smooth leveling curve and fits the bill best.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    The oathbreaker's aura of hate, the ancient's aura of warding, the tyrant's aura of conquest, or the blackguard's aura of treachery could all be worth that 7th level in a polearm build. If you're going with crown, devotion, or vengeance, 6 is probably plenty, yeah. You'd lose the level 14 ability of shadow sorcerer, but as cool as at-will teleportation is, if you really need to teleport somewhere you can always cast misty step.

    On the other hand, if you're going to make it all the way to level 20, dropping down to just 2 levels of paladin lets you keep the shadow sorcerer's pretty cool level 18 capstone.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2017-01-22 at 12:18 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterSocrates View Post
    Just wanted to say, thanks to Gastronomie and everyone else who's contributed to this. I've been trying to work out a good plate armor, polearm wielding gish (it's a concept that's always been near and dear to my heart) and I've juggled ideas from Bard to Bladesinger to PLD/WLK/FTR. It looks like PLD 6/SOR 14 has a reasonably smooth leveling curve and fits the bill best.
    Distant Spell and Booming Blade can pretty well handle your Sentinel needs, as far as stopping movement.
    For the rest, you could put 4 levels into Fighter and take UA:Knight. I know it sounds awful, but you keep your ASI. I'd go Pal4/Fight4/Sorc12 for that. Or else 2/4/14 and keep your current split. You give up your Oath and Aura, some spell slots, that's it.

    Even nicer, because starting Fighter at L1 gives you the best of both worlds: Heavy Armor and Con Proficiency.
    Last edited by CaptainSarathai; 2017-01-22 at 12:12 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Animate objects... so awesome. Not sure what tables say a class isn't allowed to use its best features, but some people hating fun isn't a reason to down rate a spell. It's simply amazing. Though I do agree that if completely breaks the game if you use flanking rules. Never been at a table that does, though.

    Great guide, by the way. Inspired me to make my next character into a sorcadin. Seems like the best way to get maximum effectiveness out of a good set of rolls.
    Last edited by Captain Panda; 2017-01-22 at 11:49 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Re: Shadow Sorcerer 'Eyes in the Dark' ability and house rule nerfs.

    Rather than just increasing the sorcery point cost to two, I recommend instead changing it to function as a sort of metamagic ability. ie: "Whenever you cast a spell that creates an area of magical darkness, you may spend a single sorcery point to allow the darkvision granted by this ability to see through the magical darkness created by the spell".

    That way, you still have to spend an actual spell slot/spell known, still have to be a high enough level to actually cast darkness, are still limited by the range of your darkvision ability, etc.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    One thing that isn't really discussed in the DEX Build section... why not Medium Armor, especially in a Lockdown build?
    Half Elf can start at STR 13 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 9 WIS 8 CHA 16. What if you just leave DEX at 14?

    • You have (15+2=17) AC from Half Plate as soon as you can find it, one point below the 18 AC of Full Plate.
    • Downsides compared to a 16 STR 20 CHA lockdown build are -1 Attack, -1 Damage, and -1 AC, but that's still a 20 AC with Half Plate, Shield, and Defense (15+2+2+1). Base damage isn't all that important when the focus of this build isn't DPR or Nova anyways (and when you DO Nova, the -2 dmg from your two attacks is practically nothing alongside how much of your punching power comes from Smites)
    • Benefits are +2-3 to your DEX save (which is far more useful than your STR save) along with +2 Initiative and better Stealth (even more so if you downgrade AC another point and use a Breastplate). Also, your armor is cheaper.


    This approach sacrifices Heavy Armor Mastery (likely going with Inspiring Leader, Warcaster, 2 CHA, 2 CHA).

    Thematically, it's also fantastic for a Half Elf. You're on the middle ground between walking tin can and squishy leather wearer, and you're tossing out Webs and Hypnotic Patterns to distract and occupy opponents while smashing them with arcane power. Go Half Drow using SCAG variant rules for Dancing Lights, Darkness, and Faerie Fire for even more laughs (plus hey, Faerie Fire is another source of Advantage, whee).

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterSocrates View Post
    especially in a Lockdown build?
    Sorry if I missed it, but... what's a Lockdown build?

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Sorry if I missed it, but... what's a Lockdown build?
    Apologies if it came out ambiguous. The Oath of the Crown + Draconic Sorcerer sample builds in Gastronomie's last post are focused around battlefield control through a few means:
    • Use Booming Blade with Attacks of Opportunity to discourage enemies from moving.
    • Use the Champion's Challenge feature of the Oath to force enemies to attack you instead of allies.
    • Use Careful Spell metamagic with Web and Hypnotic Pattern to Restrain or Charm enemies without affecting allies.


    It seriously restricts your foes from running rampant through your casters, and prioritizes that over dealing damage.

    Another thought I just had, separately from the Medium Armor thing -- for Oath of the Crown, Warding Bond should probably always be up on yourself, since you get it as an Oath spell at 5. The Resistance to damage cancels out since you take half damage twice, but it's still +1 to AC and +1 to all saves without Concentration. It also means you can take MASSIVE amounts of damage before worrying about your CON save.

    Assuming 16 CON and 20 CHA, you make CON saves at +8 with Advantage. With Warding Bond's +1, you make them at +9, so MINIMUM of 10. If a creature damages you for 43 points of damage, that gets split into two instances of 21 points of damage, each with their own save. Each instance requires a DC 10 Concentration check (half of 21 rounded down), which you auto-succeed on.

    In short, you cannot fail Concentration due to damage on any hit of 43 or less, which is the vast majority of what you'll face.
    Last edited by MisterSocrates; 2017-01-25 at 03:55 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Sentinel vs. Warcaster for enhancing opportunity attacks in a tanking/lockdown oriented sorcadin build:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Warcaster Pros:

    * essentially required for sword & board builds. This is only even a debate for greatsword and polearm builds, and since greatsword builds are designed to favor damage over control, this is really only a debate for polearms. If you're going sword (or stick) & board, then you take warcaster, and if you're going for a greatsword you take neither.

    * handles Concentration woes - Warcaster + AoP with good Cha & Con is generally sufficient. A polearm build that skips warcaster for sentinel still needs to do something about their concentration, typically either taking resilient con or, since they're already burning feats on PAM and Sentinel, dipping fighter at level one. Warcaster, for doing two things (even if using a two handed weapon means it isn't doing three things for you) is more efficient with your ASIs, which sorcadins can't afford to spare lightly.

    * more damage: if enemies violate your control, they significantly up your damage output vs. a regular AOO. You may not have as much control over the combat, but as your control slips, your damage output increases.

    * soft control. Eating extra damage from Booming Blade is less frustrating to your DM, and it's less likely they'll feel compelled to go out of their way to circumvent your gimmicks.


    Sentinel Pros:

    * Does not require reaction. If you have an ability that lets you make multiple attacks of opportunity in the same round (tunnel fighter), then Sentinel applies to each of them, while Warcaster can still only be used once

    * Synergizes fantastically with PAM's opportunity attack for entering your reach, potentially killing the turns of melee enemies. With tunnel fighter, this works on every enemy that enters your reach, you become a wall capable of holding back an entire wave of melee baddies.

    * affects enemies that withdraw. A warcaster can't put a booming blade opp attack on an enemy that uses their action to withdraw, while a sentinel build can prevent enemies from leaving your melee range even if they withdraw, provided they started their turn adjacent to you. Note that an enemy can burn a withdraw action and then move straight past you, provided they have the move to get all the way out of your reach by the end of their move.

    * lets you use your reaction to bop an enemy that attacks one of your allies without leaving your reach, something the warcaster's booming blade opp attack can do nothing about.

    * hard control: just stopping movement altogether is theoretically better than giving your enemy the choice of either stopping or taking damage, but it's also more frustrating for the DM, making it more likely that they'll start picking more ranged monsters or monsters that can move without provoking opportunity attacks altogether. If the DM does this, the sorcadin with Sentinel is still enjoying their advantage on concentration and ability to cast while wielding a shield, while the sentinel build is out most of their feat. They can still tag enemies in their reach that attack their allies, but since the enemies can leave their reach freely or attack from outside of it, that doesn't count for much.


    As mentioned in the first note of Warcaster, this is really only a question for polearm-wielding sorcadins - real polearms, not staff users, and even then polearm users specifically aiming for tanking & melee control, those for whom the opportunity attack part of Pole Arm Master is as-or-more enticing than the bonus action attack. Polearm builds aiming for direct, on-turn damage will probably, like great weapon builds, skip both sentinel and warcaster, and spend the ASI slot on more strength, more cha, or resilient con. Or maybe even great weapon mastery.


    To me, the scale tipping factor is whether or not the DM allows Tunnel Fighter. Freed from reactions, a Tunnel Fighting Pole Arm Master can often expect to be making, or at least threatening, 2, 3, or even more opportunity attacks in a round, and sentinel's ability to add hard, potentially even turn-ending control to each of those attacks makes the whole affair too much to pass up.

    However, if the DM does not allow Tunnel Fighter (and there are legitimate arguments as to why they shouldn't, the interaction with PAM and Sentinel among them), then your opp attacks are limited to your reaction anyway, so a warcaster's booming blade being limited to your reaction doesn't matter. In that case, I'd skip sentinel, and stick with warcaster.


    if you do take sentinel, what about concentration?
    Spoiler
    Show

    So if You're playing a PAM build, with an actual polearm and not a stick and shield, and your DM allows tunnel fighter, and you skip Warcaster for Sentinel to emphasize control, what do you do about Concentration? There are basically two options. The first is to take Resilient Con (which, if you're playing a variant human, sill let you bump a starting 15 con to a 16). However, we're already talking about a pretty feat intensive build - you're starting with Polearm Master from variant human, and you're grabbing sentinel at level four. Multiclassing Paladin and Sorcerer means you'll probably end up missing an ASI from the usual progression, so with just PAM and Sentinel, you've already given up on getting both Str and Cha to 20, even before you burn yet another ASI on Resilient.

    Alternatively, you can dip fighter at level one for con save proficiency. You lose wisdom proficiency, which hurts, but you pick up another fighting style, so you can add great weapon style or defense style. I'd be inclined to go this route.

    If you're dipping fighter anyway, you might grab 2, 3, or even 4 levels, but at that point you're really cutting into either your paladin end or your sorcerer end, if not both.



    I kind of like fighter 1, Paladin (oathbreaker) 7, Sorcerer (shadow) 12, though I could see some merit to fighter 3/4, oathbreaker 7/8, Sorcerer 8/9. Going with either battlemaster for superiority dice or eldritch knight for some extra cantrips, spells known, and another level's worth of spell slots.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2017-01-26 at 04:44 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Further findings as I poke at the idea of a DEX build:

    You pretty much have to take Medium Armor Mastery if you want max AC. Studded Leather stops at 12+DEX (max 17). Dragon Sorcerers can get 13+DEX (18), BUT you lose the benefit of Defense Fighting Style since it states "While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC." Same goes for Mage Armor, you can't benefit from the style while using it. On top of that, you can't use Bracers of Armor with a shield, and I don't think there's such a thing as +3 Robes unless you're competing with other casters for Robes of the Archmage. This means Medium Armor Mastery + 16 DEX + Half Plate + Defense Style is the only way to match up to the 19 AC of wearing plate (and higher ACs through magic items). It's not the worst (you can take Warcaster, MAM, 18 CHA, 20 CHA) but it does use up another precious ASI, especially since you have to go Half Elf which means you're losing another ASI by not going VHuman.

    Your skills are also a little limited since the Paladin's class list is STR focused; if you want Stealth and Acrobatics, you can't take Perception. The Half Elf's racial skills can fix this issue, though you're giving up the alternative features from SCAG (35' movement, Drow spells, etc).

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Great guide, love it, made a backup character around the ideas of this guide in case my current character dies.

    One note I have on the spell selection portion of the guide is how valuable Silent Image can be as a spell. It's like Minor Illusion but even better. I use it on my illusion based wizard as a fog cloud that grants my allies advantage on attack rolls and enemies disadvantage on attacking them. Which is just amazing, it is a bit limiting in that it takes an action to cast and if the enemies walk into the illusion to attack you they are going to realize it's an illusion and thus it will be negated but in general you can cast it specifically on your allies and yourself for the low cost of a level one spell slot.

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Mind adding in the new UA Sorcerous Origins? I'm particularly curious to see how you'd judge the Stone and Pheonix ones for these builds.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    Mind adding in the new UA Sorcerous Origins? I'm particularly curious to see how you'd judge the Stone and Pheonix ones for these builds.
    Seriously?
    Dude, they've existed for all of a couple of hours.... give the poor guy a break already.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Seriously?
    Dude, they've existed for all of a couple of hours.... give the poor guy a break already.
    I'm not asking for them now. I'm not asking for them soon. I'm simply notifying the OP that they are a thing.

    Was that assumption really necessary?

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarius Victis View Post
    Mind adding in the new UA Sorcerous Origins? I'm particularly curious to see how you'd judge the Stone and Pheonix ones for these builds.
    Stone IS GREAT for the Sorcerer-Heavy Tank build.

    Basing your Armor Class of 13+Constitution is pretty nice - basically you get medium armor AC without a movement penalty, and can reach Plate AC if you invest heavily into Constitution.
    Getting some higher-level Smite-spells is also good, and you can actually build a viable melee-character just with the Stone-Sorcerer, no Paladin required (though a two-level dip is still a good idea).

    But it's the 6th-level ability that's the real win here.
    It's a bonus action, lasts a minute, doesn't require concentration and you can use it an unlimited amount of times per day (!).
    The target (only one, though three at 18th level), which can also be you AFAIK, gets to reduce bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage by between 3 and 7, depending on your level. Which is nice - but the real benefit here is that you can teleport as a reaction whenever a foe within 60 feet hits the protected ally. You even get a free melee attack with 1D10 (later 2D10 and 3D10) damage against them!
    This is a really, really strong tank-feature. It puts a huge incentive on enemies not to attack the protected target, at least with melee attacks. If they do, you're right next to them and deal a good amount of damage. Even if they ignore you and attack, the protected ally takes a bit less damage. Really, you couldn't ask for more.

    The 14th-level feature is also pretty good.
    You get half your level to the damage of a spell. Only against one target, only in the round the spell is cast (so it doesn't quite work with booming blade, but it works with Smite-spells) - but in terms of raw damage against a single target, this is actually stronger than what a Dragon-Sorcerer gets.


    All in all, I'd call the Stone Sorcerer stronger than the Dragon-Sorcerer if you want to tank. You get your bonus damage later, you don't get to fly (without the spell that is) - but it's basically the same damage, Stone Aegis is really strong, and you get to use Staggering Smite and other high-level Smite spells.



    Sadly the Phoenix-Sorcerer is hindered by almost all of their features only being active for a minute per long rest. Other than that you get a 1/long rest ability to not fall below 0 HP, but that burst of fire you then release can actually damage allies. The 14th-level ability to heal when you cast a flame-based spell (but not a cantrip) is pretty great, but doesn't really make up for what you could get from other origins.
    Last edited by Serafina; 2017-02-06 at 04:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Since Stone Sorcerer gets Martial weapons and shields at 1st, you can even go SOR 6 > PLD 2 and skip Warcaster to go 18 STR 20 CON 18 CHA (or 16/20/20).

    "Skip Warcaster" you say? Well, sure. You have CON proficiency from SOR 1 and you're maxing the stat. As to AoOs, you use your Reaction on Aegis targets anyways, and it specifies a Melee Attack so you can't Booming Blade with it. Better to free up the ASI for STR or CHA. You could even go GWM with 20/18/16, but both your AC and HP suffer if you don't max CON.

    Top race choices include VHuman (go PLD 1 and take Resilient CON to get an extra save prof), Half Elf, Half Orc, Goliath, Earth Genasi, Mtn Dwarf (though most of their benefits are redundant or pointless when unarmored), or Triton with an elemental identity crisis.
    Last edited by MisterSocrates; 2017-02-07 at 02:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    without warcaster, how does your sword & board stone sorcadin cast shield?

    Also, do you really intend to let your charisma languish forever at 16, dramatically reducing the effectiveness of your spell attack and save based casting options, in order to keep your constitution maxed for AC?

    I like stone sorcadin, don't get me wrong, but I still think you're better off starting paladin for heavy armor and picking up warcaster when your able. maybe I'm wrong, though.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    without warcaster, how does your sword & board stone sorcadin cast shield?

    Also, do you really intend to let your charisma languish forever at 16, dramatically reducing the effectiveness of your spell attack and save based casting options, in order to keep your constitution maxed for AC?

    I like stone sorcadin, don't get me wrong, but I still think you're better off starting paladin for heavy armor and picking up warcaster when your able. maybe I'm wrong, though.
    This is why I wouldn't go sword & board for Stone Sorcadin. Get yourself some AC bracers and a beefy weapon and you no longer need Warcaster.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Yeah, great weapon stone sorcadin I could see. Again, though, you run into the issue of leaving cha to languish in order to keep your strength and con maxed
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Good point about the Bracers, I'd forgotten about them (though that does take up an Attunement unlike armor or a shield). As far as balancing STR, CON, and CHA, yeah, it's a bit of a MADfest. I'd argue for leveling them fairly evenly rather than rushing any one of them to 20. You're slower than anyone who's straight up maxing their attack stat or casting stat because you're good at both. AC is less of an issue; assuming a 16 CON, that's Chainmail equivalent AC from the start. You could go staff (as your focus) + shield until you get Bracers of Defense and GWM.

    On a side note, I really dislike how staff+shield seems to be the answer to so many things in this edition. The component casting rules seem like an unnecessary wrench in what are otherwise pretty smooth and simple game mechanics. Drop as a free action and pick up as a free interaction / sheath and unsheath your weapon constantly / the fact that Paladins and Clerics have to put away a weapon to cast a M only spell but can cast SM spells with weapon and shield out... it's all frankly bizarre against the rest of the rule set.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterSocrates View Post
    Good point about the Bracers, I'd forgotten about them (though that does take up an Attunement unlike armor or a shield). As far as balancing STR, CON, and CHA, yeah, it's a bit of a MADfest. I'd argue for leveling them fairly evenly rather than rushing any one of them to 20. You're slower than anyone who's straight up maxing their attack stat or casting stat because you're good at both. AC is less of an issue; assuming a 16 CON, that's Chainmail equivalent AC from the start. You could go staff (as your focus) + shield until you get Bracers of Defense and GWM.

    On a side note, I really dislike how staff+shield seems to be the answer to so many things in this edition. The component casting rules seem like an unnecessary wrench in what are otherwise pretty smooth and simple game mechanics. Drop as a free action and pick up as a free interaction / sheath and unsheath your weapon constantly / the fact that Paladins and Clerics have to put away a weapon to cast a M only spell but can cast SM spells with weapon and shield out... it's all frankly bizarre against the rest of the rule set.
    Without extra attack I don't think GWM is worth it on a sorcardin. A stone sorcadin is basically going to rely of BB and GFB. Taking a -5 to hit on attacks with damage riders I think last time I did the math you actually lose out on damage unless you have advantage and bless against CR appropriate AC.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Without extra attack I don't think GWM is worth it on a sorcardin. A stone sorcadin is basically going to rely of BB and GFB. Taking a -5 to hit on attacks with damage riders I think last time I did the math you actually lose out on damage unless you have advantage and bless against CR appropriate AC.
    Are you factoring in the +5 that you will get from sacred weapon?

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Simian View Post
    Are you factoring in the +5 that you will get from sacred weapon?
    I think they are talking about a 6/2 stone sorcerer paladin so sacred weapon doesn't come into play.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Is it possible to twin one of the paladin smite spells? They target only one creature, but since they work with a weapon attack I'm not sure. Still, if you can twin booming blade I dont see why you couldn't twin a smite spell.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Without extra attack I don't think GWM is worth it on a sorcardin. A stone sorcadin is basically going to rely of BB and GFB. Taking a -5 to hit on attacks with damage riders I think last time I did the math you actually lose out on damage unless you have advantage and bless against CR appropriate AC.
    Hmm what is the benefit of going 14 Stone/6 Paladin for the extra attack vs 18 Stone/ 2 Paladin.

    I mean The Stone Level 18 isn't exactly the greatest Capstone in the world. If you are a greedy person not interesting in helping your buddies. I mean unless you are going with a melee heavy party shouldn't have 3 teammates you need to Aegis. Bigger sacrifice seems more losing higher level spells or slowing progression.

    Suppose you could also consider 17/3 and 15/5.

    3 gets you some bonus spells and an oath. 5 gets you that extra attack.
    Last edited by skaddix; 2017-02-09 at 03:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Is it possible to twin one of the paladin smite spells? They target only one creature, but since they work with a weapon attack I'm not sure. Still, if you can twin booming blade I dont see why you couldn't twin a smite spell.
    No. Smite Spells are a "Range: Self" spells. While the effect itself is delivered by a weapon attack, the spell affects you.
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Hmm what is the benefit of going 14 Stone/6 Paladin for the extra attack vs 18 Stone/ 2 Paladin.

    I mean The Stone Level 18 isn't exactly the greatest Capstone in the world. If you are a greedy person not interesting in helping your buddies. I mean unless you are going with a melee heavy party shouldn't have 3 teammates you need to Aegis. Bigger sacrifice seems more losing higher level spells or slowing progression.

    Suppose you could also consider 17/3 and 15/5.

    3 gets you some bonus spells and an oath. 5 gets you that extra attack.
    Isn't Paladin 6 when you get +Cha to saves? That's kind of huge.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus the Grim View Post
    Isn't Paladin 6 when you get +Cha to saves? That's kind of huge.
    Yeah Aura of Protection. That is kinda the point though Stone Capstone isn't so great that you wouldn't be adverse to sacking it. The biggest loss is 8 and 9th level spells vs getting extra attacks, Aura Protection and Some Bonus Spells.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Yeah Aura of Protection. That is kinda the point though Stone Capstone isn't so great that you wouldn't be adverse to sacking it. The biggest loss is 8 and 9th level spells vs getting extra attacks, Aura Protection and Some Bonus Spells.
    8th and 9th level spells you'd get to cast 1/long rest each. Or twice, if you cast an 8th level spell from 9th level slot.

    Extra Attacks, Aura of Protection, and bonus spells always known/prepared will be useful much more often.

    I dunno, to me Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 seems a whole lot more tempting.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2017-02-09 at 04:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    So,

    "<game that I dislike> will break down when people try to optimize it, whereas this will never happen in <game that I like>."

    I think I've heard this argument now for every conceivable D&D-related pair of <game>s.

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