Schlock Mercenary VII: A T.A.D. Too Much Dialogue These Days

[guttering flame]

Seems I was not so far off the mark. It was faulty design that let the being escape.

[factotum]

Danita (??) may think the other guy is going from scientist to novelist, but given everything we know, the idea of using a Pa'anuri as a power source actually makes sense. Oisri being a method of creating dark matter entities is explained, the destruction of Uli-Oa makes sense, and it gives a motive for the Pa'anuri attacking the Milky Way, which has been conspicuously absent until now.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Danita (??) may think the other guy is going from scientist to novelist, but given everything we know, the idea of using a Pa'anuri as a power source actually makes sense. Oisri being a method of creating dark matter entities is explained, the destruction of Uli-Oa makes sense, and it gives a motive for the Pa'anuri attacking the Milky Way, which has been conspicuously absent until now.

Well the Dark Matter aliens seemed to have been attacking the Gatekeepers because Teraporting was harmful to them, it does explain the "Wipe out the Galaxy" bomb in the core that seemed to make little sense however.

[factotum]

Well the Dark Matter aliens seemed to have been attacking the Gatekeepers because Teraporting was harmful to them

Except they'd already made a deal whereby the Gatekeepers would suppress any attempts at creating teraport technology and force everyone to use their wormgates, so there was no need to attack them (or trick them into destroying the galaxy via a flawed core generator, which is what they actually did). Plus, how does teraporting in the Milky Way hurt Pa'anuri in Andromeda, two million light years away?

[Kornaki]

It's a little unfortunate that the big reveal that explains ten years of plot is so anti climactic.

[Slayn82]

Beyond the machine rebellion, exists the Power Source rebellion.

So, we have proof of a second instance of a Dark Matter Entity appearing or being born from a massively giant Annie Plant. Annie Plants use massive amounts of Gravitics to compress matter into Neutroniun, not unlike some Stars do.

Maybe the DME's are intelligent beings naturally born on certain stars?

[HandofShadows]

Danita (??) may think the other guy is going from scientist to novelist, but given everything we know, the idea of using a Pa'anuri as a power source actually makes sense. Oisri being a method of creating dark matter entities is explained, the destruction of Uli-Oa makes sense, and it gives a motive for the Pa'anuri attacking the Milky Way, which has been conspicuously absent until now.

IIRC didn't Oisri come from outside the Milky Way Galaxy?

[factotum]

IIRC didn't Oisri come from outside the Milky Way Galaxy?

I don't think that was ever stated, but willing to be proven wrong? It wouldn't have been as much of a surprise when a DME erupted from Oisri if it had come from outside the galaxy, methinks.

[eschmenk]

Even Danita seems to be annoyed that it took so long to get an explanation.

And now we know why this is unusual.

To be clear, we already knew that Uli-Oa was unusual. All other stockpiles of PTUs had been destroyed far more completely. This provides some additional details about Uli-Oa's destruction.

So, we have proof of a second instance of a Dark Matter Entity appearing or being born from a massively giant Annie Plant.

I don't think they actually were annie plants. The UNS assumed that Oisri was an annie plant, but there was a DME inside, rather than neutrons. I think it seemed similar to an annie plant and the UNS jumped to the wrong conclusion.

I don't think that was ever stated, but willing to be proven wrong? It wouldn't have been as much of a surprise when a DME erupted from Oisri if it had come from outside the galaxy, methinks.

Yes, it was just wandering around inside the Milky Way, as far as I know. I don't recall any mention of it originating elsewhere.

I wonder if this is analogous to the trope about civilizations advancing until the create intelligent machines that destroy them. Maybe in this universe, civilizations keep advancing to the point where they start creating and using DMEs that destroy them.

[factotum]

The archive seemed pretty certain that it was AIs that resulted in the deaths of organic life, though, not DMEs? Also, if the Pa'anuri had the power to directly destroy all life in the galaxy, I don't think they'd have been messing around persuading the Gatekeepers to build a faulty core generator.

[Alent]

The archive seemed pretty certain that it was AIs that resulted in the deaths of organic life, though, not DMEs? Also, if the Pa'anuri had the power to directly destroy all life in the galaxy, I don't think they'd have been messing around persuading the Gatekeepers to build a faulty core generator.

Oafans refer to the Pa'anuri as "lightless wind" as I recall? Their AIs are all named after winds.

The Gatekeeper AI's rambling about "Ascegnarok", maybe it wasn't talking about the ascension of immortality suite people, but AIs?

Edit: And Elf channels Tagon's "Never tell me what you can't do as if it's something nobody can do." line without even realizing it.

[eschmenk]

The archive seemed pretty certain that it was AIs that resulted in the deaths of organic life, though, not DMEs? Also, if the Pa'anuri had the power to directly destroy all life in the galaxy, I don't think they'd have been messing around persuading the Gatekeepers to build a faulty core generator.

As Petey said, the archive was wrong. Also, as far as we know, not even the gatekeepers are advanced enough to be building new Oirsis yet, so we haven't gotten to the sort of situation I was guessing about yet. Anyway, if your enemy can easily be talking into destroying himself for you, why not do it that way even if you could destroy the enemy if you tried?

[factotum]

As Petey said, the archive was wrong.

Petey said the archive was wrong because he *wants* it to be wrong, not out of any proof--he doesn't want to be the AI that destroys all life in the Milky Way, yet the archive is telling him that's what will inevitably happen because it always does.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Except they'd already made a deal whereby the Gatekeepers would suppress any attempts at creating teraport technology and force everyone to use their wormgates, so there was no need to attack them (or trick them into destroying the galaxy via a flawed core generator, which is what they actually did). Plus, how does teraporting in the Milky Way hurt Pa'anuri in Andromeda, two million light years away?

I figured they were just vindictive jerks until now.

[eschmenk]

Petey said the archive was wrong because he *wants* it to be wrong, not out of any proof--he doesn't want to be the AI that destroys all life in the Milky Way, yet the archive is telling him that's what will inevitably happen because it always does.

No. The archive's logic was just plain silly. First of all, it didn't understand the observer effect correctly.

In quantum mechanics, there is a common misconception (which has acquired a life of its own, giving rise to endless speculations) that it is the mind of a conscious observer that causes the observer effect in quantum processes. It is rooted in a basic misunderstanding of the meaning of the quantum wave function ψ and the quantum measurement process.

The archive even exaggerated that misconception and thought that objects could be destroyed simply by observing them or if there was too much knowledge of the observations. Not only that, the archive took the observer effect misconception and applied it to the entire universe. It thought the problem with the AIs was that they knew too much. It thought that simply by knowing everything about everything, everything would automatically be destroyed. That's silly!

[HandofShadows]

I figured they were just vindictive jerks until now.

Genocidal jerks would be much more accurate. The DME tried to kill the entire Milky Way Galaxy even though the Gatekeepers had been keeping their end of the treaty. (and kill species that had done nothing to them) Apparently the DME only consider peace treaties as a time out so they can figure out how to genocide their enemies.

[ChowGuy]

Genocidal jerks would be much more accurate. The DME tried to kill the entire Milky Way Galaxy.

Genocidal jerks would be much more accurate. The DME tried to kill the entire Milky Way Galaxy.

Plus, how does teraporting in the Milky Way hurt Pa'anuri in Andromeda, two million light years away?

Because gravitic effects from our galaxy can't possibly affect anything that far away? Oh, wait, they can (and do). That's why the Pa'anuri
told the Gate-Keepers they were building the Core Engine for in the first place - to prevent the two's eventual merger.

Oh, but surely that's an event a few billion years in the future, and it's not like there's anything the "Annoying" baryonic life could do to them before that? After all it's impossible to teraport/wormgate all the way to Andromeda.

Except [url=http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2005-03-29]Wor of God (and not just Petey, or even the narrator) says it WAS before our galaxy was "dropped out" of their universe. That was ultimately their goal, the extinction of life here, being no longer of concern to them, would merely have been a side effect.

[factotum]

That footnote basically just says "It's possible to teraport to Andromeda if you use enormous amounts of power". Firstly, until the Pa'anuri taught the Gatekeepers how to make a core generator, who would have the power to spare or the inclination to do so? Secondly, when people actually teraport in, then you can start making plans to destroy them--pre-emptively planning to destroy an entire galaxy just on the offchance somebody in it might develop a technology that hurts you doesn't seem like a great use of resources.

[ChowGuy]

That footnote basically just says "It's possible to teraport to Andromeda if you use enormous amounts of power". Firstly, until the Pa'anuri taught the Gatekeepers how to make a core generator, who would have the power to spare or the inclination to do so? Secondly, when people actually teraport in, then you can start making plans to destroy them--pre-emptively planning to destroy an entire galaxy just on the offchance somebody in it might develop a technology that hurts you doesn't seem like a great use of resources.

Actually, although I screwed up the quote tags, what the footnote explicitly says "So much power, in fact, that it hasn't been done other than experimentally." Which is to say. it has been done. We just don't know how long ago. It wouldn't surprise me if the primary reason the Gate Keepers were suppressing teraport technology (and ulikely any hint of the ancient Oafan generation technology they gleaned from The Archive) was not merely to protect their monopoly on FTL communication (which we know the Pa'anuri are also capable of) but because they were under treaty obligation to pevent anyone from developing the technology to do so. It also wouldn't surprise me if that's why the Pa'anuri were at war with the in the first plan.

And the only resources they needed to "use" was some [dis]information, and possibly a few "observers" unless the later had planned to ecape through the Zoojack System wormgate. Which we still have no plausible reason for their shepherding other then that was also a treaty obligation on their part,

[guttering flame]

Does a world where the Book of 70 Maxims is their bible really care about justice?

[ryuplaneswalker]

Actually, although I screwed up the quote tags, what the footnote explicitly says "So much power, in fact, that it hasn't been done other than experimentally." Which is to say. it has been done. We just don't know how long ago. It wouldn't surprise me if the primary reason the Gate Keepers were suppressing teraport technology (and ulikely any hint of the ancient Oafan generation technology they gleaned from The Archive) was not merely to protect their monopoly on FTL communication (which we know the Pa'anuri are also capable of) but because they were under treaty obligation to pevent anyone from developing the technology to do so. It also wouldn't surprise me if that's why the Pa'anuri were at war with the in the first plan.

And the only resources they needed to "use" was some [dis]information, and possibly a few "observers" unless the later had planned to ecape through the Zoojack System wormgate. Which we still have no plausible reason for their shepherding other then that was also a treaty obligation on their part,

Them Suppressing the Teraport was explicitly part of the peace treaty, that is the whole reason they were keeping it under wraps because the Dames and the Gatekeepers were at war however many years ago until the peace treaty was given and the whole core generator trap was created.

[eschmenk]

Except [url=http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2005-03-29]Wor of God (and not just Petey, or even the narrator) says it WAS before our galaxy was "dropped out" of their universe. That was ultimately their goal, the extinction of life here, being no longer of concern to them, would merely have been a side effect.

Actually, I think Word of God may have been unreliable there. The Gatekeepers obviously had a huge gate set up to terraport between the two galaxies, so it probably had been done non-experimentally, too. In that case, Word of God was probably based on the knowledge Kevyn had available to him, not the absolute truth.

It wouldn't surprise me if the primary reason the Gate Keepers were suppressing teraport technology (and ulikely any hint of the ancient Oafan generation technology they gleaned from The Archive) was not merely to protect their monopoly on FTL communication (which we know the Pa'anuri are also capable of) but because they were under treaty obligation to pevent anyone from developing the technology to do so.

Like ryuplaneswalker, I thought that was established definitively, but I can't remember when or how.

[factotum]

The Gatekeepers obviously had a huge gate set up to terraport between the two galaxies

Wormgate technology is explicitly *not* the same as teraport--that's why the Gatekeepers used it, because it was set up so as to not cause harm to DMEs.

[eschmenk]

Wormgate technology is explicitly *not* the same as teraport--that's why the Gatekeepers used it, because it was set up so as to not cause harm to DMEs.

OK. I was thinking it was basically the same, except the wormholes were static and therefore the DMEs could avoid them. Come to think of it, though, since the gatekeepers were copying people, maybe the matter entering a gate was destroyed and identical matter was created at the destination gate without anything passing through any wormholes. It's been so long since I thought about the gates, I don't remember much of what we knew about them.

Anyway, it seems that the DMEs had plenty of reasons to want to wipe out life in the Milky Way galaxy.

[halfeye]

OK. I was thinking it was basically the same, except the wormholes were static and therefore the DMEs could avoid them. Come to think of it, though, since the gatekeepers were copying people, maybe the matter entering a gate was destroyed and identical matter was created at the destination gate without anything passing through any wormholes. It's been so long since I thought about the gates, I don't remember much of what we knew about them.

Anyway, it seems that the DMEs had plenty of reasons to want to wipe out life in the Milky Way galaxy.

They're doing the same in Andromeda, just a different way.

[keybounce]

Trojan Horse?

[HandofShadows]

Well it's over and there wasn't even any more deaths. And a certain someone has yet ANOTHER pet AI.

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If Mutaugh owns the city, doesn't that kinda make her the owner of the how darn place?

[Marcelinari]

Well it's over and there wasn't even any more deaths. And a certain someone has yet ANOTHER pet AI.

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If Mutaugh owns the city, doesn't that kinda make her the owner of the how darn place?

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No, I don't think so. The city and Uli-Ola are different entities, which both happen to belong to the civil Esspie authorities for similar reasons. They owned the city because they built it. They own Uli-Ola because they discovered it first, and have been in residence on it in excess of anybody else. Murtaugh's ownership of their city does not void their claim to Uli-Ola, and although Murtaugh can theoretically evict them from the city, she cannot remove them from the planet except by use of force, which, though effective, is not a legally-justified method of taking something. If they can continue inhabiting Uli-Ola, their residency claim will never elapse, and given that Esspies are (semi-?)robotic life-forms which don't require atmosphere, I suspect that they could survive without buildings for long enough to build new ones.

[eschmenk]

Well it's over and there wasn't even any more deaths.

And that's yet another thing that calls into question how many deaths and injuries there needed to be on board Cindercone and Broken Wind. It would be pretty sad if the Toughs didn't have any EMP grenades or similar weapons handy or if they just didn't think to try using anti-electronics weapons against robots, but apparently one of those is true. Of course, that's in addition to all the other ridiculous things the Toughs did (or failed to do) that made them so vulnerable.

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No, I don't think so. The city and Uli-Ola are different entities, which both happen to belong to the civil Esspie authorities for similar reasons. They owned the city because they built it. They own Uli-Ola because they discovered it first, and have been in residence on it in excess of anybody else. Murtaugh's ownership of their city does not void their claim to Uli-Ola, and although Murtaugh can theoretically evict them from the city, she cannot remove them from the planet except by use of force, which, though effective, is not a legally-justified method of taking something. If they can continue inhabiting Uli-Ola, their residency claim will never elapse, and given that Esspies are (semi-?)robotic life-forms which don't require atmosphere, I suspect that they could survive without buildings for long enough to build new ones.

The problem may that there may not be any other location at which they could feed off the tree. Who knows? Trying to figure things using logic, as you were doing, isn't particularly helpful in a story that makes as little sense as this one does.

The civilian Esspies intended to (probably) evacuate and give up their claim on Uli-Ola from the very beginning. However, The Wing Commander wanted more. Apparently either Petey isn't going to give them time to receive the three hulls before bombarding the place, or the hulls aren't functional ships that the Esspies could use to evacuate themselves. HT probably hasn't bothered explaining that. In any case, having the Toughs evacuate the Esspies isn't a new idea. That was from six months ago.

I haven't completely gone back to not reading the comic at all, but I'm just reading one week's worth at a time or catching up when the discussion makes me curious now.

[factotum]

It would be pretty sad if the Toughs didn't have any EMP grenades or similar weapons handy or if they just didn't think to try using anti-electronics weapons against robots

What makes you think such weapons would even work? Military-grade robots are going to be shielded against stuff like that--otherwise there would be no point in ever using them, since you could disable the very expensive robot using a cheap grenade.