Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XII - DIS FINGY GOT NO SQUIGZ IN IT!

[Wraith]

I find it interesting that Imperial Fists are now an amalgamation of seven gene-seeds, and nothing bad has happened in the next 8000 years. This is kind of a huge deal, and something that definitely should have been explained before now. But you can't have gene-seed degradation because then it wouldn't restore the status quo, which is what you want to do...Except something so massive as "Imperial Fists aren't even Imperial Fists anymore." really needs more depth thrown into it. That's a huge change to the setting and something that has enormous ramifcations that you really need to explain.

Aren't they all Imperial Fists' successors anyway? The Beast appears only a relatively short time after the Second Founding, so it's not as though there's been time for much degradation to kick in; arguably, between the purification and testing done by the geneseed vaults on Terra and a certain amount of "Well, it says Black Templar on the vial, but really who'll ever know otherwise?" sleight-of-hand, it's only Imperial Fists geneseed that's been borrowed for 1,000 years before being given back?

Although you are right, in that it sounds like a really cool story that I'd really like to know more about.... Though it will probably never get mentioned again, because the Blood Angels already did it and we can't possibly have two stories about how two different Legions deal with the same problem, right?

...WHAT!? WTF HAPPENED TO "NO IMPERIAL FIST HAS EVER FALLEN."!?
No. Don't give me the BS, that Fists Exemplar weren't real Imperial Fists (especially 'cause all the real Imperial Fists are dead).

Sorry mate, but this is your answer. If they're not "real enough" that their geneseed can't be used to recreate the Imperial Fists (see point 1 above) then they can't be considered "real enough" to be Imperial Fists for the purposes of falling. There's no having your cake and eating it in the Imperium, there's shut up and do as you're told or die in fire.

Also, how long as "No Imperial Fist has ever fallen" been a thing? I've never heard of it before, it's usually one of the many gimmicks which makes the Grey Knights such special snowflakes, in that they're the only Chapter who can genuinely lay claim to it sincerely. Them and the Dark Angels, of course.....

The Fists Exemplar Company chose to Fall, because the Iron Warriors helped them out one time. What happened to the Imperial Fists' ancestral hatred of Iron Warriors? Did the hallucinations of Dorn not explain that part to you!? Remember The Iron Cage, and how it's a huge motivational aspect of your Chapter's history? ****! Whatever. This book has so many problems that we're only halfway.

Makes sense to me. Same difference for the Thousand Sons, who just approached it from the other way - even though they were screwing around against the specific edict of the Emperor, they didn't so much fall as much as they were pushed. Who would you say - between the Sons obeying their father Magnus and being painted with the villain brush by Leman "Fetch the ball, doggy!" Russ, and the Fists Exemplar who deliberately disobeyed their own father AND sided with known Traitors against their brothers - is more worthy of damnation?

If you failed to answer "both of them", please report to the nearest Inquisitorial Re-Indoctrination Center for fire and purg-.... cookies and educational DVDs.

[Cheesegear]

Aren't they all Imperial Fists' successors anyway?

And Flesh Tearers are Blood Angels Successors, and Black Dragons are Salamanders.

The Beast appears only a relatively short time after the Second Founding

Third*.

Also, how long as "No Imperial Fist has ever fallen" been a thing?

It's a pretty big deal during 30K. That while all the Legions fractured, the Imperial Fists did not, and never did, not until M32, and then never again. Lysander was in the Warp for 1000 years, and was like "What kind of Fist Falls to Chaos? How bad of a failure do you have to be?"

it's usually one of the many gimmicks which makes the Grey Knights such special snowflakes

Matt Ward kicked that idea in the head, and had a whole bunch of 'Knights Fall to Khorne.

Ben Counter had a Grey Knight strapped with a Collar of Khorne, but the instant it was removed, Alaric wanted to repent so bad. It wasn't his choice to become a Champion of Khorne, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a really good story, because that's how Collars of Khorne actually work, in a way that Matt Ward didn't even touch.

[Blackhawk748]

Matt Ward kicked that idea in the head, and had a whole bunch of 'Knights Fall to Khorne.

Ben Counter had a Grey Knight strapped with a Collar of Khorne, but the instant it was removed, Alaric wanted to repent so bad. It wasn't his choice to become a Champion of Khorne, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a really good story, because that's how Collars of Khorne actually work, in a way that Matt Ward didn't even touch.

That fluff is ignored, for multiple reasons.

The counter story wouldnt count as falling, cuz, you know, mind control.

[hamishspence]

Wasn't the whole point of Ward's story, that the Grey Knights used sorcery to prevent themselves from succumbing to Khorne's extremely powerful influence on that world at that time?

[Wraith]

And Flesh Tearers are Blood Angels Successors, and Black Dragons are Salamanders.

I can't tell whether or not you're being ironic, but since the Flesh Tearers really did donate geneseed and resources to revive the decimated Blood Angels, I'm going to assume that you meant something along the lines of "yes, I suppose you're right".

It's a pretty big deal during 30K. That while all the Legions fractured, the Imperial Fists did not, and never did, not until M32, and then never again. Lysander was in the Warp for 1000 years, and was like "What kind of Fist Falls to Chaos? How bad of a failure do you have to be?"

I'm now fairly sure that No Imperial Fist Has Ever Fallen is the new There Are No Wolves On Fenris. At best a technicality; at worst, a deliberate lie to soothe the precious egos of those who are in on it.

Wasn't the whole point of Ward's story, that the Grey Knights used sorcery to prevent themselves from succumbing to Khorne's extremely powerful influence on that world at that time?

Yes. It was a stupid story and the details don't match with the other ~200 pages of the Codex at all, but at "bottom line": the Grey Knights successfully resisted Khorne's influence, killed a bunch of daemons, and went home where everyone was happy with the outcome.

And even then, had they fallen under the influence of the bloodstorm, by Cheesegear's definition they still would not have Fallen; like Alaric, they would have been forced into damnation, not doing it through their own choice.

[Blackhawk748]

Wasn't the whole point of Ward's story, that the Grey Knights used sorcery to prevent themselves from succumbing to Khorne's extremely powerful influence on that world at that time?

Technically. Though most of us consider butchering Sisters of Battle who where keeping the storm back with their faith and then covering your armor in their blood, constitutes falling.

[Wraith]

Anyone else been following Warhammer TV recently? I pick up the occasional VLOG when I have a spare few minutes, but I've just finished watching the Black Library Live With Aaron Dembski-Bowden interview, and I have to say that a) he comes across as a thoroughly nice guy and b) he's terrible at not dropping spoilers to his upcoming books.

There's one in particular that I picked up on, because as far as I know it's "new" lore that was only just rumour until now:

Spoiler

Show

At the end of Talon of Horus, when Abaddon walks into a room and Sigismund is sat waiting for him, the ensuing fight results in the death of Sigismund. Not just that Abaddon walks away or makes some kind of elaborate means of escape - "Abaddon kills him".

The prelude to that encounter is that by M32 the Imperium has all-but forgotten the Traitors that dwell in the Eye, all save for the Black Templars. As the newly-formed Black Legion prepares to make it's grand return into Realspace, they're met at the door by Sigismund who is the last who still remember the Heresy; he alone is ready for the First Black Crusade and has spent decades blockading the Cadian Gate, staring into Hell and just waiting for his nemesis to reappear.

....And the book is "only half done". Damn you Bowden! Write faster!

[t209]

Well, finished reading siege of fenris.

Spoiler: Warzone: Fenris

Show

Fenris is completely wasted with the denizens being exterminated (guess they hadn't followed Cadian who pretty much know about Chaos and possibly spread that knowledge to other worlds). This time, Space Wolves are too exhausted and too mich bad rep to put up a fight. It's official Space Wolves are first founding chapter to slowly die out, depending if Ravenguard and Blood Angels get eaten by Tyranids approaching their homeworld first. At least those two have successors and can recruit offworld.
Also it really did show bleak "present" of 40k since Magnus finally got his vengeance and now the planet is over Prosperous.

[Cheesegear]

Spoiler

Show

It's official Space Wolves are first founding chapter to slowly die out

Imperial Fists died to a man in M32. All of them. Dead.

[LeSwordfish]

Good thing the wolves have all of those successor chapters to replenish them... oh, no, wait

[bluntpencil]

Imperial Fists died to a man in M32. All of them. Dead.

Is it clarified whether or not Maximus Thane receives 100% pure IF, non successor, seed from the Adeptus Mechanicus vaults?

It's entirely possible for a Chapter to utterly die, but still use their gene seed to be reborn. It's mostly pointless for other chapters, though.

[Drasius]

Good thing the wolves have all of those successor chapters to replenish them... oh, no, wait

Is it really so wrong that I laughed maniacally like a cliche supervillain at this?

[Drasius]

[redacted]. All of them. Dead.

Spoilers man, spoilers.

[Cheesegear]

Is it clarified whether or not Maximus Thane receives 100% pure IF, non successor, seed from the Adeptus Mechanicus vaults?

I assume he would have. But, 5% is only 50 Marines. Meanwhile, Thane has 1000 Marines under his command who can totally die, and when they do, Apothecaries will stab them in chest and rip out one of their organs, and then implant that organ into a Neophyte. There are far more non pure IF gene-seeds in circulation than the 50 they can get from Mars.

Is it really so wrong that I laughed maniacally like a cliche supervillain at this?

Cool thing is, Space Wolves not being able to produce Successors is also Magnus' doing. Almost like he planned it the whole time.

Spoilers man, spoilers.

The Last Son of Dorn. Unfortunately, the spoiler is in the title, which is why I didn't bother.

[bluntpencil]

I assume he would have. But, 5% is only 50 Marines. Meanwhile, Thane has 1000 Marines under his command who can totally die, and when they do, Apothecaries will stab them in chest and rip out one of their organs, and then implant that organ into a Neophyte. There are far more non pure IF gene-seeds in circulation than the 50 they can get from Mars.



Cool thing is, Space Wolves not being able to produce Successors is also Magnus' doing.



The Last Son of Dorn. Unfortunately, the spoiler is in the title.

I thought the Ad Mech took 10% all the time and froze it. A hundred years of frozen seed, and you've got enough to make a Chapter... Of Scouts.

[Cheesegear]

I thought the Ad Mech took 10% all the time and froze it.

They take 5% (50) and they go bad every decade or so, so the AM gets more. Or, they use that 5% to Found a new Chapter, and then demand more for later. In canon, it takes 50 years to make a new Chapter from scratch, and the math checks out. It takes 8-10 years for a gene-seed to mature, since a Scout gets their Primary Seed ripped out of their neck when they finish Neophyte school. They get their Second ripped out of their chest when they die. Since the process is fatal. Except the Secondary removal isn't a concern if you're making test-tube clones in a lab on Mars. So they rip out both Seeds at the same time.

First Cycle (<10); 50 Gene-seeds from stock makes 100 Seeds.
Second Cycle (<20); Those hundred make 200.
Third Cycle (<30); 400
Fourth Cycle (<40); 800
Fifth Cycle (<50 years);

The Chapter now has ~1600 Seeds ready for implantation. 5% of that (1000) goes directly back to Mars. So, 1550 Seeds. Then throw in the failure rates of implantation, then the wash-out rates of Scouts, and you get pretty much exactly how many Seeds you need to make a Chapter.

[Drasius]

Cool thing is, Space Wolves not being able to produce Successors is also Magnus' doing. Almost like he planned it the whole time.

I know, it's a great read even if it is a bit rediculous that it takes a ship purposely designed at cracking the Fang's defenses a month or so to break through the Fang's void shields. Our local blackshirt is a fervent spess woof fanatic and continually tells me that I've got it all wrong and that Fenris is fine and that I've just been reading a few lines of the internet (the last part is true). I do get the impression from everyone that's read it that Fenris (and the wolves) are fairly screwed though since they basically don't have any natives left and a large portion of their chapter is dead, so I'm not 100% on the final score, but I think Magnus has just about broken even if not pulled a bit ahead at the moment.

The Last Son of Dorn. Unfortunately, the spoiler is in the title, which is why I didn't bother.

Fair enough, but for those of us who haven't read any further than the first book, you don't assume that they're willing to go that far with a first founding legion/chapter. I don't care since it was spoiled for me long ago, but others who are reading might.

I thought the Ad Mech took 10% all the time and froze it. A hundred years of frozen seed, and you've got enough to make a Chapter... Of Scouts.

Probably as a result of what happened in the very incident that we're discussing. Even if you only have 50 scouts, as long as you don't go straight back out for revenge or get your fortress monestary invaded by chaos/pirates/dark eldar/traitor guard/tyranids/whomever, you can rip out the second progenoid gland after what, 10 years? and start the cycle again and slowly get back to some semblance of a chapter before too long, though having the luxury of that much time isn't something that happens very often in 40k.

Besides, even if it is a chapter of scouts, you can basically just attach them to another chapter and have them work in tandem with them as the heavy assault and armour while you provide the scouting forces for recon and light support.

[Blackhawk748]

Is it really so wrong that I laughed maniacally like a cliche supervillain at this?

Only if its wrong that i did it too. Stupid Spece Woofs.

[deuterio12]

I know, it's a great read even if it is a bit rediculous that it takes a ship purposely designed at cracking the Fang's defenses a month or so to break through the Fang's void shields. Our local blackshirt is a fervent spess woof fanatic and continually tells me that I've got it all wrong and that Fenris is fine and that I've just been reading a few lines of the internet (the last part is true). I do get the impression from everyone that's read it that Fenris (and the wolves) are fairly screwed though since they basically don't have any natives left and a large portion of their chapter is dead, so I'm not 100% on the final score, but I think Magnus has just about broken even if not pulled a bit ahead at the moment.

The Imperium has a million worlds, meaning plenty of cattle slaves humies available for whatever needs of the master mutant race arise. Space furries pretty much already rule over a bunch of other worlds on the system to start kidnaping recruiting from, or can just go crusader-style and kidnap recruit on the run for some time.

So at worst minor setback for space puppies. Magnus couldn't even defeat their boss, who also turned out to be 100% corruption immune.

Meanwhile Thousand Sons weren't ever that numerous to begin with (that's the point of their name), and lost Rubric Marines can't be replaced, point.

[Cheesegear]

Space furries pretty much already rule over a bunch of other worlds on the system to start kidnaping recruiting from, or can just go crusader-style and kidnap recruit on the run for some time.

Unless the Fenrisian interaction with the Canis Helix is true. The Wolf Priests seem to be under the impression that Fenrisians are literally the only humans in the Galaxy capable of handling the Space Wolf gene-seed, and it's totally not a coincidence that Russ just so happened to land there.

Unfortunately, there's also The Battle of the Fang, where Magnus screwed up the Space Wolf gene-seed forever, so maybe that has something to do with it. Space Wolves really can't produce Successor Chapters on other planets.

[Drasius]

The Imperium has a million worlds, meaning plenty of cattle slaves humies available for whatever needs of the master mutant race arise. Space furries pretty much already rule over a bunch of other worlds on the system to start kidnaping recruiting from, or can just go crusader-style and kidnap recruit on the run for some time.

So at worst minor setback for space puppies. Magnus couldn't even defeat their boss, who also turned out to be 100% corruption immune.

Meanwhile Thousand Sons weren't ever that numerous to begin with (that's the point of their name), and lost Rubric Marines can't be replaced, point.

Or that their boss has plot armour, or has already been corrupted by khorne?

Thousand Sons isn't the point of their name (not in universe anyway) and lost rubricae can be re-summoned and while lost sorcerors can't be re-summoned since they're mortal (or as mortal as astartes in the eye get anyway), renegade psychers do seek out the Sons for their mastery of lost knowledge, so their ranks, while not at an all time high, haven't dropped non-stop, though undoubtedly there aren't many true sons of prospero still left. But then, there's only 1 true son of Russ left and he's apparently got plot armour going for him as well.

Spess Furries also rule over 1 less planet and they never had many to start with, basically only what was in the Fenris system.

[Forum Explorer]

I know, it's a great read even if it is a bit rediculous that it takes a ship purposely designed at cracking the Fang's defenses a month or so to break through the Fang's void shields. Our local blackshirt is a fervent spess woof fanatic and continually tells me that I've got it all wrong and that Fenris is fine and that I've just been reading a few lines of the internet (the last part is true). I do get the impression from everyone that's read it that Fenris (and the wolves) are fairly screwed though since they basically don't have any natives left and a large portion of their chapter is dead, so I'm not 100% on the final score, but I think Magnus has just about broken even if not pulled a bit ahead at the moment.

Can't they just import more savages? Even if they only have a few natives left to cross breed in, that should preserve the Canis gene enough to get a working population eventually. Though genetics, and 40K genetics in particular aren't so cut and dry.

Though any surviving civilians could eventually be bred back up into a working population, though that'll take generations and will likely end up with weird in bred traits.

So I can see recovery being possible, just very difficult and slow, leaving the Space Wolves effectively out of play for several hundred, maybe even a thousand years.

But hopefully this is just the excuse they need to get rid of Thunderwolf Calvery, and the weird wolf fetish that shows up in the Codex, but not so much in the fluff. (Or maybe this is the excuse for why that forms. )

[Wraith]

Besides, even if it is a chapter of scouts, you can basically just attach them to another chapter and have them work in tandem with them as the heavy assault and armour while you provide the scouting forces for recon and light support.

Who would have them, though? The Space Wolves have spent 10,000 years being tremendous a-holes to almost every other Chapter that they have come into contact with, and more besides.

Besides boasting about killing a Primarch and actively attempting to murder another, the Wolves picked a fight with the Dark Angels Legion, took it upon themselves to threaten to kill Sanguinius, they had dudes hanging around to try and do the same to Dorn, they insulted and defied both the Inquisition and the Grey Knights, got into another pointless fight with more Blood Angels successors, the Ultramarines' successors all bought into the "violent savage" fursona that they deliberately portray, and NOW its common knowledge that they have been harbouring mutants within their ranks....

Nobody likes them. They have no friends outside of Fenris, which is now in flames. And good riddance, I say.

[Destro_Yersul]

Nobody likes them. They have no friends outside of Fenris, which is now in flames. And good riddance, I say.

I like them! Mostly because I think vikings are cool.

[Wraith]

Okay, fine; Destro likes them. So I guess that answers the other question; they can all crash at your place while you teach them the Art of War, yeah?

[Blackhawk748]

I like them! Mostly because I think vikings are cool.

I like Vikings too, except that the Space Wolfs are uber arrogant jerks, and this is coming from a guy who has Ultramarines. Granted my 2nd Company Captain is Captain Titus aka the Greatest Captain to Ever Captain.

Also, i have a question. Lets say that a bunch of Dark Angels go renegade a few hundred years ago, could they join one of the Traitor Legions?

[Wraith]

Absolutely. The mentalities of the Fallen Angels vary as widely as any two Legions that you care to mention; some were lied to and misguided by Luthor and later became penitent for their actions, trying to blend back into Imperial society and once again lead pious, loyal lives while others joined the Deathwatch (as Blackshields) to atone for themselves.

Others, meanwhile, were vicious sociopaths and jaded renegades who fully embraced the Emperor-as-tyrant theory and openly gave themselves to the Traitor cause. Joining a traitor legion would be comparatively straight forward for such individuals, if the didn't instead form their own warbands. Most probably joined the Black Legiin since it saved on the cost of paint, but there's no reason as to why they could not go to another Legion if they were so inclined (read: so hideously corrupted or otherwise deranged).

As for "modern" Fallen Angels.... the odds of that happening are extremely remote, given how paranoid and guilt-ridden they are, but WERE it to happen then it's still true. Some warband or other out there in the Galaxy would take them in, depending on their temperament, disposition, etc, the Black Legion especially well known for taking in misfits and strays from wherever they come from. And of course, Nurgle ALWAYS has room for more children so one would imagine that the Death Guard aren't too picky.... The Night Lords and the Iron Warriors are quite particular about the company they keep though, especially given the Lords/Angels history during the Heresy, so there might not be very much movement in that direction.

[Drasius]

Who would have them, though? The Space Wolves have spent 10,000 years being tremendous a-holes to almost every other Chapter that they have come into contact with, and more besides.

Besides boasting about killing a Primarch and actively attempting to murder another, the Wolves picked a fight with the Dark Angels Legion, took it upon themselves to threaten to kill Sanguinius, they had dudes hanging around to try and do the same to Dorn, they insulted and defied both the Inquisition and the Grey Knights, got into another pointless fight with more Blood Angels successors, the Ultramarines' successors all bought into the "violent savage" fursona that they deliberately portray, and NOW its common knowledge that they have been harbouring mutants within their ranks....

Nobody likes them. They have no friends outside of Fenris, which is now in flames. And good riddance, I say.

Oh, I thought we were talking about a normal chapter that had been reduced to nothing ala the Fists. Yeah, nobody but Destro would have the wolves at this point. Well, maybe the Black Dragons, but that's about it.

[Wraith]

The Black Dragons have too many of their own secrets to risk letting Space Wolves get involved.
As I said before, it's now fairly common knowledge that the Wolves have deliberately hidden mutants among their Great Companies for a long, long time - if it's already suspected that the Black Dragons are even potentially doing the same thing, they certainly would not want the extra attention of Mechanicus, Inquisitorial and Administratum officials dropping in to just "check up" on the new Wolves and maybe just "have a quick look" at their hosts while they're in the neighbourhood.....

The White Scars might do it, on reflection. They're capricious enough (and, more to the point, don't have anything to hide...) that lending a hand to a similarly-feral Chapter and once-Legion might not be out of the question. Why they would do it, out of anything other than a vague sense of fraternity, would be a mystery - I'm not aware of the Wolves and the Scars having any kind of history together, for good or ill, and their tactics/specialties are so significantly different that the Wolves might not be interested in learning to ride bikes all the time even if the offer was made.

The Iron Hands don't even like their own successors very much, let alone someone else's. I don't imagine them to be particularly charitable in such a situation, especially given how they were more or less left to fend for themselves when they were in the same situation after Istvaan III.

The Raven Guard..... have their own problems with succession. And again, are notoriously single-minded in their approach to warfare, the Wolves might not want to learn stealth and backstabbing, being single-mindedly drawn to "honourable" combat as they are.

The Salamanders might do it. They're nice guys, easy to get on with, they don't have any particularly weird hang-ups about how they fight, they too share a concern for mortals that is similar to the Wolves' actions after Armageddon, and they have reasonably good ties with their own (few) successors that they might be inclined towards cooperation..... As with the Scars they'd be doing it out of a weird sense of fraternity that hasn't yet been built upon in the fluff (I don't recall whether or not the Salamanders and the Wolves ever campaigned together in the Crusade, I'm fairly sure that they did not) but then that's kind of the sort of thing that the Salamanders do; they look after people who can't do it for themselves, which describes the Wolves perfectly at the moment.
Yeah, I think that's it; if anyone would do it, it's the Salamanders. Because they're chumps like that.

A pity that the new Rout almost certainly wouldn't get picked up by someone like the Black Templars or the Carcharodons, so that they might learn something useful from someone who doesn't screw around with leather masks and feathered headbands all the time....

Or the Rainbow Warriors. Because I want a Founding Legion to owe everything they have - their lives, their future and all of their achievements from now until the end of time - to the Rainbow Warriors.

[Drasius]

The Black Dragons have too many of their own secrets to risk letting Space Wolves get involved.

True, I figured that the wolves might scare off the inquisition, but then, they've got nothing left to scare them off with, that's the point. You're right.

The Iron Hands don't even like their own successors very much, let alone someone else's. I don't imagine them to be particularly charitable in such a situation, especially given how they were more or less left to fend for themselves when they were in the same situation after Istvaan III.

The Iron hands don't even like themselves let alone their successors.

...Yeah, I think that's it; if anyone would do it, it's the Salamanders. Because they're chumps like that.

Haha, Nick Kyme could even write their next book!

Or the Rainbow Warriors. Because I want a Founding Legion to owe everything they have - their lives, their future and all of their achievements from now until the end of time - to the Rainbow Warriors.

As amusing as I'd find that, weren't the Rainbow Warriors a founding legion in rogue trader instead of the ultramarines? I like to imagine that they were a founding legion but everyone got embarrased and chose to "misremember" and now the Rainbow Warriors have a grudge against all the founding legions since nobody would support them.