Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XII - DIS FINGY GOT NO SQUIGZ IN IT!

[LeSwordfish]

Great Crusade 2: Crusade Harder

[Blackhawk748]

Smash Additional Pylons has my vote

[The Glyphstone]

You Must Smash Additional Pylons for me.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Additional Pylon's Required?

Not sure if this discussion is still happening, so I spoilered my opinion on the Imperium.

Spoiler: Rant on Imperium's "Goodness"

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Also, it's amazing to me how many people will hold Chaos up as better than the Imperium. The Imperium is at best a very dark shade of grey from our perspective, but c'mon. That's just pigheaded. The Imperium is not worse than Chaos. Chaos might seem like a better option for the individual (this just in: it's not), but for humanity as a whole Chaos is so much worse its a ridiculous comparison. Sure, name an atrocity and the Imperium has done it. That fails to take into account the sheer size of the Imperium. It's a million worlds large - anything you can think of (good or bad) is happening somewhere in that expanse at any given moment. Additionally, we only ever really hear about the worst things that happen in that vast number of worlds, making it extremely easy to Flanderize the Imperium to absurd levels. For every world that's been Exterminatus'ed, there are dozens (if not hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands) of relatively peaceful Agri-worlds. Why don't we hear about them? Cause they're boring. "Agrarius XI has had a good harvest this year (for the sixth hundredeth in a row, thanks to the Land Crawler) and the feral orks are under control. Nothing to report." Would you rather hear about ten thousand worlds like that or about Cadia or Baal? My point, I guess, is that for humanity as a whole the Imperium is (dare I say it) a good thing as it ensures its survival. Does it hate aliens? Sure. Take a look at practically every major species ever mentioned in fluff (Hrud, Necrons, Rak'gol, Orks, Dark Eldar) and the monstrosity that is the Hive Mind, and it's easy to see why they are unwilling to trust the Tau or the Eldar. Should they? Maybe, but neither of those groups is really anything other than a temporary ally. Humans are vermin to Eldar, after all, and the Tau want everyone under their banner. Is the Imperium a horrible place to live? For many, yes. But I really doubt that the alternatives (DE chattel, fodder for Orks, Tyranid-chow, etc) are all that preferable other than the Tau, whose closets are hardly free of skeletons.

I'd also like to hear a convincing argument as for how Chaos is objectively better for humanity as a whole (and not for skilled or ambitious individuals) than the Imperium. Haven't heard one yet, and I'm pretty doubtful a convincing one will come forth. Chaos is better for exceptional individuals, but everyone else is far, far worse off. For evidence, see . . . virtually anything Chaos has ever done.

TL; DR: The Imperium is horrible by modern standards but it ensures the survival of humanity in a ludicrously hostile universe and thus is a good thing (if by default only) for humanity as a whole in the universe of 40k. It sucks to live in it, but the alternatives are (mostly) laughably worse.

[Kris Strife]

Additional Pylon's Required?

Not sure if this discussion is still happening, so I spoilered my opinion on the Imperium.

Spoiler: Rant on Imperium's "Goodness"

Show

Also, it's amazing to me how many people will hold Chaos up as better than the Imperium. The Imperium is at best a very dark shade of grey from our perspective, but c'mon. That's just pigheaded. The Imperium is not worse than Chaos. Chaos might seem like a better option for the individual (this just in: it's not), but for humanity as a whole Chaos is so much worse its a ridiculous comparison. Sure, name an atrocity and the Imperium has done it. That fails to take into account the sheer size of the Imperium. It's a million worlds large - anything you can think of (good or bad) is happening somewhere in that expanse at any given moment. Additionally, we only ever really hear about the worst things that happen in that vast number of worlds, making it extremely easy to Flanderize the Imperium to absurd levels. For every world that's been Exterminatus'ed, there are dozens (if not hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands) of relatively peaceful Agri-worlds. Why don't we hear about them? Cause they're boring. "Agrarius XI has had a good harvest this year (for the sixth hundredeth in a row, thanks to the Land Crawler) and the feral orks are under control. Nothing to report." Would you rather hear about ten thousand worlds like that or about Cadia or Baal? My point, I guess, is that for humanity as a whole the Imperium is (dare I say it) a good thing as it ensures its survival. Does it hate aliens? Sure. Take a look at practically every major species ever mentioned in fluff (Hrud, Necrons, Rak'gol, Orks, Dark Eldar) and the monstrosity that is the Hive Mind, and it's easy to see why they are unwilling to trust the Tau or the Eldar. Should they? Maybe, but neither of those groups is really anything other than a temporary ally. Humans are vermin to Eldar, after all, and the Tau want everyone under their banner. Is the Imperium a horrible place to live? For many, yes. But I really doubt that the alternatives (DE chattel, fodder for Orks, Tyranid-chow, etc) are all that preferable other than the Tau, whose closets are hardly free of skeletons.

I'd also like to hear a convincing argument as for how Chaos is objectively better for humanity as a whole (and not for skilled or ambitious individuals) than the Imperium. Haven't heard one yet, and I'm pretty doubtful a convincing one will come forth. Chaos is better for exceptional individuals, but everyone else is far, far worse off. For evidence, see . . . virtually anything Chaos has ever done.

TL; DR: The Imperium is horrible by modern standards but it ensures the survival of humanity in a ludicrously hostile universe and thus is a good thing (if by default only) for humanity as a whole in the universe of 40k. It sucks to live in it, but the alternatives are (mostly) laughably worse.

I would absolutely want to read about an IG officer retiring from some of the worst front lines to an agri-world where the biggest problem he faces is some teenagers getting drunk and going grox tipping. That could be an incredibly amusing story if they don't go with the 'summarily executes them' route.

[Destro_Yersul]

Grox tipping is probably closer to an extreme sport than a drunken pasttime, given that Grox are large angry reptiles. Would be a funny story, though.

[Eldan]

I would absolutely want to read about an IG officer retiring from some of the worst front lines to an agri-world where the biggest problem he faces is some teenagers getting drunk and going grox tipping. That could be an incredibly amusing story if they don't go with the 'summarily executes them' route.

Brb, going to rewrite Hot Fuzz. With one change to the finale:

"You are Tzeentch Cultists!"
"Oh no. We serve the Emperor. And the Greater Good." (The Greater Good)
"You are Tau sympathizers?!"
"No, we simply want to purge the unclean and make this world nice and tidy for the Emperor. It's for the Greater Good." (The Greater Good)
"Oh. Well, go on then."

[The Patterner]

I would absolutely want to read about an IG officer retiring from some of the worst front lines to an agri-world where the biggest problem he faces is some teenagers getting drunk and going grox tipping. That could be an incredibly amusing story if they don't go with the 'summarily executes them' route.

There was a part in one of the Grey knigths books about a old retired Imperial guardsman who was now a farmer and had quite enjoyed his retierment until some orks came by and everything went grimdark.

I think that was the best part of the entire book.

Dan Abnett has at times shown us the better sides of the imperium as well, I think there was a part in one of the ravenor books were Ravenor saw a young couple walking (or just sitting) in a park hanging out.

Of cource that also went grimdark more or less instantly...

[Haruspex_Pariah]

There was a part in one of the Grey knigths books about a old retired Imperial guardsman who was now a farmer and had quite enjoyed his retierment until some orks came by and everything went grimdark.

I think that was the best part of the entire book.

Dan Abnett has at times shown us the better sides of the imperium as well, I think there was a part in one of the ravenor books were Ravenor saw a young couple walking (or just sitting) in a park hanging out.

Of cource that also went grimdark more or less instantly...

Conclusion: everything goes grimdark, it's just a matter of when.

Fifteen Hours has the main protagonist's ancestor (grandfather I think) take part in a lottery to be discharged from his regiment and settle down.

Spoiler

Show

He doesn't win the draw, but one of the winners gives him his ticket; the ancestor cites this as a miracle from the Emperor. When the protagonist tells this story to his new unit, they immediately conclude that his ancestor murdered his fellow guardsman for the ticket. Because it happened long before the story starts we get no confirmation one way or the other, but the protagonist is understandably shaken by the accusation.

Ask yourself which version is more likely...

[Wraith]

You Must Smash Additional Pylons for me.

Make it so. New thread available Here. Old Thread has been summarily judged and "honourably discharged".... three times in the back of the head as protocol demands.

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