Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XII - DIS FINGY GOT NO SQUIGZ IN IT!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Teleporters work because they are a really good way to get your heroes into the action (or out, as the story demands).

Teleporters are used because they run on pure narrative.

[Brookshw]

Otherwise the book won't contain nearly enough heretics being laminated across a wall.

There is no such thing as "enough"

[Wraith]

Like Artanis said, they open a warp portal maybe a few hundred meters in front of them while engagements are fought at a range of hundreds or thousands of kilometers.

Different books and authors seem to describe it in different ways. Some describe the translation as opening a doorway ahead of the ship, which then flies forwards and into the 'hole' in space. Some others - and I'm thinking of Deliverance Lost here - instead describe it as a 'bubble' opening around the ship; the vessel does not specifically move into the warp, but it just sort of.... fades from one dimension into the other.

This is significant because when this is described, Corax is using his Warp Drive to ambush a World Eaters' ship, sneaking right up close to it and hitting the Big Red Button in order to drop both ships into the warp before the Traitors have a chance to bring up their Gellar Field. The translation has to happen 'around' the ship and not in front of it, otherwise the manoeuvre doesn't work as described.

Given the fractured nature of Imperial technology, quite possibly both methods are true for different types of ships. Corax' in particular is a newer design with a stealth generator and other unusual technology, so it's not for certain that his warp drive is necessarily a standard model.

[LeSwordfish]

Worth considering that the doorway would work for that trick so long as the doorway's position was relative to an external reference point, not the two ships - everything in space is orbiting something, after all.

[Cheesegear]

Some describe the translation as opening a doorway ahead of the ship, which then flies forwards and into the 'hole' in space.

Craftworld Iyanden specifically drops the warp hole behind them in order to escape the Tyranids.
This is also the popular way to do it, and how most people view it, because Dawn of War.

some instead describe it as a 'bubble' opening around the ship; the vessel does not specifically move into the warp, but it just sort of.... fades from one dimension into the other.

I always thought that it was Corax specifically designing his ships to do a Raven Guard trick, and/or Gav Thorpe being terrible.

Corax' in particular is a newer design with a stealth generator and other unusual technology, so it's not for certain that his warp drive is necessarily a standard model.

Now you mention it.

[Forum Explorer]

Craftworld Iyanden specifically drops the warp hole behind them in order to escape the Tyranids.
This is also the popular way to do it, and how most people view it, because Dawn of War.



I always thought that it was Corax specifically designing his ships to do a Raven Guard trick, and/or Gav Thorpe being terrible.



Now you mention it.

Wait what? I thought Craftworld Iyanden didn't escape the Tyranids, they had to fight them off. Also Eldar don't go directly into the Warp.

[Cheesegear]

Wait what? I thought Craftworld Iyanden didn't escape the Tyranids, they had to fight them off. Also Eldar don't go directly into the Warp.

They did both. In both Codex: Iyanden and in War Zone: Valedor, it mentions that in order to survive Kraken, they had to split into two (similar to what happens in Shield of Baal, where they send a Prison Ship full of biomass to the outer edges of the System to split the Tendril). In order to split Kraken, Iyanden dropped a hole behind itself, which the Tyranids went into. Iyanden then had to fight off the other half, which they couldn't have done, had the Tendril been at full strength.

[DataNinja]

They did both. In both Codex: Iyanden and in War Zone: Valedor, it mentions that in order to survive Kraken, they had to split into two (similar to what happens in Shield of Baal, where they send a Prison Ship full of biomass to the outer edges of the System to split the Tendril). In order to split Kraken, Iyanden dropped a hole behind itself, which the Tyranids went into. Iyanden then had to fight off the other half, which they couldn't have done, had the Tendril been at full strength.

That sounds more like the effect some kind of Imperium-Sized ridiculously mega Distortion-cannon would have. Except, of course, I'm sure it's not, but that's what it seems like it should be. Unless the text is suggesting that they opened a hole into the webway, which would be a monumentally stupid idea.

[Kris Strife]

There is no such thing as "enough"

Sure there is. It's all of them.

[Eldan]

That sounds more like the effect some kind of Imperium-Sized ridiculously mega Distortion-cannon would have. Except, of course, I'm sure it's not, but that's what it seems like it should be. Unless the text is suggesting that they opened a hole into the webway, which would be a monumentally stupid idea.

Not the webway, no. Valedor is quite clear, they displaced half a nid tendril into the warp.

[lord_khaine]

Not the webway, no. Valedor is quite clear, they displaced half a nid tendril into the warp.

Well.. i guess if your D-cannon gets big enough.. thats what happens..

[Wraith]

Craftworld Iyanden specifically drops the warp hole behind them in order to escape the Tyranids.
This is also the popular way to do it, and how most people view it, because Dawn of War.

Plenty of Imperial ships are also described as "dropping" into and out of the Warp, I thought it was just a figure of speech; a colloquialism to define the point of entry and agress.
For example, the Millenium Falcon "drops" out of hyperspace and the Enterprise "drops" out of Warpspeed despite both just appearing to slow down abruptly. It's a generic sci-fi term and I'm not sure that it can always be relied upon to be a literal description (Craftworld Iyanden being the exception in this case, of course).

Although I do like the idea that a warp fissure can be created under a vessel, and then they suddenly plunge downwards into the Hell Dimension awaiting "beneath the skin of reality" as some have put it. Still, point is, we've established that there is no one standard way in which warp fissures are opened; different ships do it in different ways, which I guess is handy for various authors.

I always thought that it was Corax specifically designing his ships to do a Raven Guard trick, and/or Gav Thorpe being terrible.

Given how every one else on the bridge was bug-eyed with fear as he was doing it, and the colossal risk involved in a trick which even Corax says no one else but a Primarch would have been able to achieve, I interpreted that scene as something desperate that he'd only just come up with in an emergency. After all, if that is what his ship was designed to do, one would imagine that his bridge crew would also be aware of it and not convinced that he was attempting a convoluted form of suicide.

That sounds more like the effect some kind of Imperium-Sized ridiculously mega Distortion-cannon would have. Except, of course, I'm sure it's not, but that's what it seems like it should be. Unless the text is suggesting that they opened a hole into the webway, which would be a monumentally stupid idea.

It's actually quite amusing that what the Imperium considers to be the pinnacle of interstellar logistics, in fact works in exactly the same way as what the Eldar consider to be an extremely unstable and utterly deadly weapon of mass destruction. Probably for a very good reason....

[Rizhail]

Eldar actually do have some forms of warp travel, utilized in small amounts by the Warp Spiders and to greater effect by the crazier Corsairs. It's just that most Eldar consider going into the Warp to be worse than suicidal, so they tend to either use it as a weapon or avoid it entirely (save for the use of psychic powers, obviously).

[LeSwordfish]

I'm thinking of putting together a Deathwatch Kill Team, to ally into my Inquisition and use as a Kill Team for small games, since that seems to be a lot of what my friends play. I'm asking in here because I have pretty solid ideas about what I want the Kill Team members to be, and want fluff advice on what chapters for some of the other classes - i'm thinking of your standard Ragtag Group Of Heroes, and want to not use the same ten-twelve chapters everyone does.

This will be made with a Veterans Box and a Vanguard box. I'm going to make a Librarian as well: not every model needs to be in the 200pt kill team, but I want enough options to swap back and forward between those.

The Leader - Mentors
- Veteran Sargeant with Powersword and Bolt Pistol
The Sniper - Raptors
- Veteran with Stalker Boltgun
The Heavy Weapons Guy - ???
- Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter
The Reckless Scout - ???
- Veteran with Shotgun
The Demolitions Guy - ???
- Veteran with combi-melta and grenades
The Knight - Fire Hawks
- Vanguard Veteran with Storm Shield and Powersword
The Brawler - Minotaurs
- Vanguard Veteran with Powersword and Power Axe
The ??? - ???
- (Vanguard?) Veteran
The Mysterious Guy With A Hammer - Iron Warriors Black Shield
- Veteran with Thunder Hammer (And Storm Shield?)
The Diviner - Silver Skulls
- Librarian with Force Sword and book/runes

You kind of get the Action Movie feel I want, with your grizzled sargeant, your gruff sniper and reckless shotgun guy. I know some obvious ones - white scars run up and shoot people with shotguns, Raven Guard have lightning claws - I just wanted some slightly less obvious choices.

I am probably going to make one of them a member of the Emperor's Pointy Sticks.

[LCP]

The ??? - ???
- (Vanguard?) Veteran

Ork commando in a Kunnin Disguise.

'e's bin in deep kuvva so long 'e's gone native

[DataNinja]

I am probably going to make one of them a member of the Emperor's Pointy Sticks.

Clearly the demolitions guy. Oh, wait... you wanted the opponents stuff blown up?

[Rizhail]

Ork commando in a Kunnin Disguise.

'e's bin in deep kuvva so long 'e's gone native

Turns out, the Deathwatch is getting desperate enough to take ANYONE as a black shield.

[Wraith]

The Heavy Weapons Guy - ???
- Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter

Consecrators? (Dark Angels descendants; specialise in possessing a ridiculous amount of archeotech and Heresy-era weapons)

The Reckless Scout - ???
- Veteran with Shotgun

Carcharodons? (They lurk beneath the galactic plane, rising up only to strike out of nowhere!)
Howling Griffons? (Prone to swearing oaths and sticking to them no matter the cost - just the sort of guys to volunteer for a dangerous solo-mission? Also a really cool pauldron to paint!)

The Demolitions Guy - ???
- Veteran with combi-melta and grenades

Imperial Fists? (Renowned as siege specialists, so this guy is the siege-breaker rather than the architect)

The ??? - ???
- (Vanguard?) Veteran

"Lancer" is usually the term in media for the guy who lunges into a fight and generally gets s*** done.

I'd say Black Dragons, because those guys are cool and it gives you someone who can be a little wild and run ahead of the group.
Or possibly Doom Eagles, who are famous for once equipping their entire consignment of Tactical, Assault and Devastator Marines with Jump Packs to peform a stunning blitzkrieg on an entrenched enemy?
Alternatively, Rainbow Warriors. He's so freakin' sick of everyone making fun of his colourful stripy emblem that he keeps out of their way and has a lot of anger to burn off?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Shotgun scout could be Night Swords (Imperial Fists successors that are even more aggressive once they've decided on a course of action), or Rainbow Warriors.

I would actually go with the demolitions guy for Howling Griffons, but that's just me.

Heavy weapons guy could be Crimson Fists?

[Cheesegear]

The Heavy Weapons Guy - ???
- Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter

Star Phantom or Son of Medusa.

The Reckless Scout - ???
- Veteran with Shotgun

SPACE SHARK!!! Mantis Warrior. As a Scout, he's not entirely aware of the Badab War and how that all went down (912.M41, 80 years ago), but everyone else in the Team totally remembers that Mantis Warriors were on the Bad Team.

The Demolitions Guy - ???
- Veteran with combi-melta and grenades

Fire Lord, obviously.

The ??? - ???
- (Vanguard?) Veteran

The Berzerker. I notice that you don't have a dude with double Lightning Claws. SPACE SHARK. Not friends with the Minotaur.

Alternatively, The Dark Horse, make him an Invader Marine (one of the closer Chapters to Loyalist Night Lords). Power Fist & Lightning Claw. Though if that feels dumb because 50ppm, then Lightning Claw or Power Fist and Storm Shield is just as good. Every Kill Team needs a guy who is simply willing to do bad things for the sake of the Team.

Or, Executioner. One who actually fought in the Badab War, and totally fought for Huron. Joining the Deathwatch is his penance for the things he did. Renegade for Life, though. If you're not going to use a Space Wolf or White Scar to be 'the guy who doesn't do what he's told', then an Executioner would fit the bill. Also, the Mantis Warrior gets an actual friend. Except that everyone keeps telling the Scout that the Executioner is a Bad Influence, except, that to the Scout, the Executioner is the only one who treats him nicely - that's how they get you.

[Wraith]

Shotgun scout could be .... Rainbow Warriors.

May I ask why you think they fit? Rainbow Warriors don't actually have a personality, since they're a throw-back to a weird time in the 80's that hideously old people like me won't let GW forget, and no serious author wants to write about them.

The idea that other Chapters make fun of them and they're sick up to their back teeth of it, is entirely due to my imagination and one throw-away joke in one obscure audiodrama.

[Hiro Protagonest]

May I ask why you think they fit? Rainbow Warriors don't actually have a personality, since they're a throw-back to a weird time in the 80's that hideously old people like me won't let GW forget, and no serious author wants to write about them.

The idea that other Chapters make fun of them and they're sick up to their back teeth of it, is entirely due to my imagination and one throw-away joke in one obscure audiodrama.

Well the name makes me think of Aztecs and generally flashy warriors. A shotgun fits the flashiness.

This is just from my own attempt at thinking up something for them to fill in the lost legions.

[LeSwordfish]

I've only skim-read so far, but any Rainbow Warrior is getting cool stone close combat weapons.

[Destro_Yersul]

Emperor's Pointy Sticks should be the demo guy, I agree. I miss that comic. I still have the set of D6's with the Pointy Sticks emblem that I bought ages ago.

[CN the Logos]

So, I was just given the Burning of Prospero boxset (minus the Custodes and Sisters, plus the unit of Cataphractii terminators and the HQs from the Betrayal at Calth boxset) for my birthday, so I guess I'm starting 30k now. Now, obviously Thousand Sons are the best legion, we don't need to say more about that. But Google is giving me some inconsistent results and I wanted to ask the people here; do we know when the Sons went blue, exactly? Because I like their 40k color scheme, but I want to be at least moderately true to the canon in this case. Some people are saying it was explicitly part of the Rubric, other people are saying it happened after the burning of Prospero but the exact time isn't specified. Could blue and gold Sons represent a post-Prospero pre-Rubric force? If not, I still like the red color scheme, but I figured I'd ask about my options before putting paint to model.

Thanks.

[LeSwordfish]

Howling Griffons? (Prone to swearing oaths and sticking to them no matter the cost - just the sort of guys to volunteer for a dangerous solo-mission? Also a really cool pauldron to paint!)

Having read the Howling Griffons section in one of the Badab war books, i'm thinking one of them for a Sargeant (if only because i'll only have one Bird Head pauldron and will need it for the Raptor.)

"Lancer" is usually the term in media for the guy who lunges into a fight and generally gets s*** done.

So, like everyone else in the Deathwatch?

Star Phantom or Son of Medusa.

I like the idea of the Son Of Medusa, definitely: Iron Hands But Not, if you get me.

Mantis Warrior. As a Scout, he's not entirely aware of the Badab War and how that all went down (912.M41, 80 years ago), but everyone else in the Team totally remembers that Mantis Warriors were on the Bad Team.

Oh man, and the Fire Hawks and Mantis Warriors spent the entire Badab war directly fighting each other.

Fire Hawk: I do not trust this Neonate's reports. The scion of betrayers will be a betrayer too.
Howling Griffon: Their chapter paid their penance, Demetrius: your return to the war does us all no favors.
Mantis Warrior: No, no, let him say his piece. I'll defend my chapter's honor if necessary.
Emperor's Pointy Stick: **** HIM UP, SAITAQ

(This requires assuming that the Mantis Warriors could still send neophytes to the deathwatch despite being halfway through a Penitent Crusade, but... shush, it works.)

I think I might go for the Emperor's Pointy Stick as the demo guy. That just leaves the last veteran...It's a shame Vanguard Veterans can't dual-wield bolt pistols, really - i'm very tempted by Dual Claws and Charcarodon, or Fist/Shield and Something Punchy. I might be able to take both: I was planning on buying a set of legs so the Pointy Stickbomber can crouch down to plant bombs: I bet i've got a spare torso somewhere to make an eleventh person. The Iron Warrior ("You can totally come back after a betrayal, trust me.") will mostly be MK3 Armour anyway.

[Drasius]

Could blue and gold Sons represent a post-Prospero pre-Rubric force? If not, I still like the red color scheme, but I figured I'd ask about my options before putting paint to model.

Not really. The generally agreed upon timeline is that Prospero gets raided and burned, the remaining 1500'ish living Thousand Sons flee through Magnus' portal to the planet of the sorcerors that was waiting for them (Just As Planned) where they settled in. Roughly 5 minutes later, the flesh change came back with a vengance. Ahriman and a few others of the TSons studied the flesh change in search of a way to reverse it to no avail for years. Ahriman looked through Magnus' grimoure and cobbled together what we know as the Rubric of Ahriman (though there were a bunch of other people who were involved in the casting). Ahriman asked Magnus for help but was told to stop all research and that Magnus "had more important things to do with his time" than to help Ahriman find a cure for their legion. Ahriman goes on a trippy galaxy spanning soul journey with Magnus so he can see why Magnus has abandoned them, but after he comes back, he continues with his research anyway, despite Magnus issuing the same proclamation that the Emperor forbade the TSons from using magic to Ahriman about continuing his research. Ahriman is terrified of the flesh change taking him like it did his brother and conspires with many other sorcerors to form a cabal and cast the Rubric. They do so, and Magnus pops over and banishes Ahriman and the survivors from the planet of the sorcerors.

The line where they change armour colours gets hazy here, there are some stories that say that they changed pretty much immediately, via magical means, other stories say that they only changed many years later, but the consensus is that Blue and Gold is definately post Rubric. Having said that, if you like the Blue and gold, paint them that way, they'll look awesome. Just get ready for a bunch of compliments on how nice your Ultramarines look Who knows, with all the stuff that's alledgedly coming out for the thousand sons in the next few months (The 2nd part to Warzone Fenris, possibly their own codex, Magnus is apparently slated as the next primarch book, there's the other half of ADB's Horus trilogy (as narrated by one of the main opponents to Ahriman's casting of the rubric} and then finally the big one of Inferno from Forgeworld), anything and everything that is canon now could totally change. Paint 'em the colour that you think looks rad, that's what I reckon.

[Wraith]

Who knows, with all the stuff that's alledgedly coming out for the thousand sons in the next few months (The 2nd part to Warzone Fenris, possibly their own codex, Magnus is apparently slated as the next primarch book, there's the other half of ADB's Horus trilogy (as narrated by one of the main opponents to Ahriman's casting of the rubric} and then finally the big one of Inferno from Forgeworld), anything and everything that is canon now could totally change. Paint 'em the colour that you think looks rad, that's what I reckon.

This is pretty much the best advice. You'll probably get more from the next HH book than anything else that has already been written.

There are, however, two leading theories as to why the Thousand Sons are Blue and Gold now. The biggest that has been mentioned is the Rubric, that the change from red to blue was part of the will of Tzeentch and the spell that Ahriman cast imposed more changes than just dusting the non-Psykers in the Legion.

The other answer is simply "Warbands". Like all of the other Legions, the Thousand Sons fractured into even smaller groups after Magnus made it clear that he wasn't coming back. Some went off and joined other Legions - Iskandar Khayon painted his and all of his cadres' armour black when he joined up with Abaddon, for example - whereas others founded their own warbands and took up their own colours.
Presumably, given that the Blue/Gold scheme goes back to Second Edition when the only Thousand Sons character was Ahriman, Blue/Gold were the colour that he took up after his exile and for a long time that's what was associated with the entire Legion, for want of another source.

So as such, paint 'em however you want. Somewhere in the canon, there's always a reason as to why your army does what it does; fractured, unruly and cut-loose warbands more so than most, in fact. If you want to be red and gold, it just means that your warband is probably still specifically loyal to Magnus and/or the old ideals of the Legion, while everyone else has become disillusioned with the idea.

[Drasius]

... when the only Thousand Sons character was Ahriman, Blue/Gold were the colour that he took up after his exile and for a long time that's what was associated with the entire Legion, for want of another source.

So as such, paint 'em however you want. Somewhere in the canon, there's always a reason as to why your army does what it does; fractured, unruly and cut-loose warbands more so than most, in fact. If you want to be red and gold, it just means that your warband is probably still specifically loyal to Magnus and/or the old ideals of the Legion, while everyone else has become disillusioned with the idea.

Since the Sorcerors still loyal to Magnus spend a large portion of their time in their own towers/labs/den/hive/whatever while Ahriman is forever raiding secrets in the Imperium and antagonising Inquisitors, this is the likely story. In the Ahriman trillogy there's quite a bit of insight into other characters and also a bit of info around how the other half went about their business towards the end of the trilogy and it's made clear that they're still red and gold whereas Ahriman's motley crew are generally doing their own thing.

Pre-Rubric though, there's really no solid justification to paint them anything other than red/white/gold, other than it looks even more awesome in Blue/Gold, but really that's all you need. If you've got the sort of group that worries about the correct company markings and shoulder trims then you might get a few pointed comments, but rare is the time when I've seen Thousand Sons look anything else but great as they're solid competitors for worst unit in the game, so only the people who like them enough to either lose or just paint them 'cause they're cool take them up. That and it's pretty difficult to screw up Blue/Gold.

[Cheesegear]

Fire Hawk: I do not trust this Neonate's reports. The scion of betrayers will be a betrayer too.

I'd also like to think/hope that the Mantis' assumed recklessness comes from a desire to prove himself to his peers (Notice me, Senpai! *vomit*), rather than any c/overt stupidity.