Lumi and Wildshape

[Hawkat139]

Hey Playground.

Funny idea came to my head while looking into building a wild shape character. I am not actually planning on building the character this way, but figured I'd check to see if my interpretation was right.

The Lumi race (MM3) has the exceptional special quality of having a floating head--
Floating Head –Head floats a few inches above its shoulders & it can rotate all the way around. Cannot be strangled, suffocated, decapitated, and attackers flanking the Lumi do not receive +2 to hit.

Seeing as this is a special quality of the base creature, does this mean any Lumi in wild shape would shape into an animal with a floating head? It seems that way as written.

The reason I ask is two fold. One, it's a funny image that I can't seem to keep out of my head. Two, I think it would rather destroy the +10 to disguise as the animal that wild shape normally offers.

Again, just an interesting idea and I wanted to see if I interpreted right.

[Venger]

you only keep ex sqs from class levels when you wild shape, not ones derived from your base form.

[Hawkat139]

Ok thanks, must have misinterpreted that... still a funny image

[Venger]

sure is

this is a handy reference for remembering what you get for different kinds of shapeshifting

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A hagunemnon can mix and match critter traits, so it could be, say, a neckless lernean hydra with lots of floating heads, plus wings and whatever other three traits you like.

[Venger]

A hagunemnon can mix and match critter traits, so it could be, say, a neckless lernean hydra with lots of floating heads, plus wings and whatever other three traits you like.

a way to do this pre-epic is via the master transmogrifist's infinite variety ability using a hydra (or whatever) as a base form. you'd need to enter as an outsider though.

[eggynack]

you only keep ex sqs from class levels when you wild shape, not ones derived from your base form.

Alternate form says you retain the extraordinary special qualities of your base form. With that in mind, it looks like you'd retain your fancy floating head. Don't see why you'd necessarily lose the disguise bonus, meanwhile. The intrinsic nature of the disguise bonus is that you're not doing the best job not being your original race, because otherwise people would just assume you're the creature you're becoming with no problem. Some baggage from your original form thus seems to be assumed.

[Venger]

Alternate form says you retain the extraordinary special qualities of your base form. With that in mind, it looks like you'd retain your fancy floating head. Don't see why you'd necessarily lose the disguise bonus, meanwhile. The intrinsic nature of the disguise bonus is that you're not doing the best job not being your original race, because otherwise people would just assume you're the creature you're becoming with no problem. Some baggage from your original form thus seems to be assumed.

I see frozen wildshape in his future

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Alternate form says you retain the extraordinary special qualities of your base form. With that in mind, it looks like you'd retain your fancy floating head. Don't see why you'd necessarily lose the disguise bonus, meanwhile. The intrinsic nature of the disguise bonus is that you're not doing the best job not being your original race, because otherwise people would just assume you're the creature you're becoming with no problem. Some baggage from your original form thus seems to be assumed.

So, would a lumified snake just be, like, a slithering head?

And think of the giraffes, man!

[Venger]

So, would a lumified snake just be, like, a slithering head?

And think of the giraffes, man!

turn into a diplodocus

[MaxiDuRaritry]

turn into a diplodocus

Brachiosaur.

[Endarire]

What about a Beholder via Aberrant Wild Shape?

[Venger]

What about a Beholder via Aberrant Wild Shape?

wait that means by RAW, you can decapitate a beholder or kill it with a vorpal weapon.

[InvisibleBison]

wait that means by RAW, you can decapitate a beholder or kill it with a vorpal weapon.

I think beholders fall into the category of creatures that have no heads.

[Venger]

I think beholders fall into the category of creatures that have no heads.

that's not a real thing, mechanically.

some monsters are amorphous or have no discernable anatomy as a sq, but beholders aren't actually on that list.

[Inevitability]

wait that means by RAW, you can decapitate a beholder or kill it with a vorpal weapon.

Think that's bad? Decapitate a ghoul, watch it continue to perceive it's surroundings and bite people. I'm not kidding: it says non-vampiric undead aren't 'affected by the loss of their heads'.

[Venger]

Think that's bad? Decapitate a ghoul, watch it continue to perceive it's surroundings and bite people. I'm not kidding: it says non-vampiric undead aren't 'affected by the loss of their heads'.

how would you decapitate a ghoul? you can't use a vorpal weapon since it's immune to critical hits. same with a famine spirit's vorpal bite.

if you did, by RAW his head would have to inexplicably stay in his square anyway. he couldn't punt it across the combat map and it wouldn't get an extra set of actions like a vargouille, it wouldn't give him more reach or let him not be flanked by jamming it on backwards or anything.

it's almost as though it would magically levitate over his neck stump.

uh oh, it's contagious

[Hawkat139]

Alternate form says you retain the extraordinary special qualities of your base form. With that in mind, it looks like you'd retain your fancy floating head. Don't see why you'd necessarily lose the disguise bonus, meanwhile. The intrinsic nature of the disguise bonus is that you're not doing the best job not being your original race, because otherwise people would just assume you're the creature you're becoming with no problem. Some baggage from your original form thus seems to be assumed.

I can see some baggage of the original form carrying over, the problem I had was with the Lumi racial specials. One of which, the floating head, would certainly be noticed as being different, you don't tend to find many wolves that have their head floating over its shoulders. The other, which I hadn't mentioned in the original post was the Body of light. Body of Light–Gives off 5’ radius of light at alltimes, which cannot be voluntarily suppressed... so a glowing wolf with a floating head might just stand out, even in the world of D&D, likely more then enough to ruin any attempt to pass as a normal wolf.

Thanks again for all the information.

[InvisibleBison]

that's not a real thing, mechanically.

some monsters are amorphous or have no discernable anatomy as a sq, but beholders aren't actually on that list.

You're right that there's no specific "headless creature" trait. However, the vorpal property explicitly says "Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads ... The DM may have to make judgment calls about this sword's effects." There are a number of monsters that are not amorphous or immune to critical hits, but do not have a head. The beholder is one, as are the delver, kraken, and will-o'-wisp. I suppose you could say that, since the vorpal property doesn't require DM adjudication but merely allows for it, the RAW is that all these apparently headless creatures can be decapitated by a vorpal weapon. But if you did say that, you'd essentially be choosing to interpret the rule in a dysfunctional fashion, and I don't see why anyone would want to do that.

[icefractal]

how would you decapitate a ghoul? you can't use a vorpal weapon since it's immune to critical hits. same with a famine spirit's vorpal bite.

Magic effects that apply on a crit still apply to creatures immune to crits, like Flaming Burst for instance. Also, IIRC, Vorpal isn't on crit, it's specifically on natural 20.

[Venger]

You're right that there's no specific "headless creature" trait. However, the vorpal property explicitly says "Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads ... The DM may have to make judgment calls about this sword's effects." There are a number of monsters that are not amorphous or immune to critical hits, but do not have a head. The beholder is one, as are the delver, kraken, and will-o'-wisp. I suppose you could say that, since the vorpal property doesn't require DM adjudication but merely allows for it, the RAW is that all these apparently headless creatures can be decapitated by a vorpal weapon. But if you did say that, you'd essentially be choosing to interpret the rule in a dysfunctional fashion, and I don't see why anyone would want to do that.

That's fair. The reason would be to point out, for humorous purposes and general merriment, that RAW sometimes has silly or illogical implications, not to actually suggest trying it in a real game. vorpal sucks as an enhancement anyway.

Magic effects that apply on a crit still apply to creatures immune to crits, like Flaming Burst for instance. Also, IIRC, Vorpal isn't on crit, it's specifically on natural 20.

vorpal explicitly refers to having to confirm a crit after you roll a 20. I'm not sure if that's an instance of specific trumping general. in either instance, I mentioned crits because a famine spirit's vorpal bite (the only other source of decapitation off the top of my head, so to speak, I could think of besides vorpal) only activates on a crit, so technically he wouldn't be able to bite off a ghoul's head.

[Inevitability]

vorpal[/url] explicitly refers to having to confirm a crit after you roll a 20. I'm not sure if that's an instance of specific trumping general. in either instance, I mentioned crits because a famine spirit's vorpal bite (the only other source of decapitation off the top of my head, so to speak, I could think of besides vorpal) only activates on a crit, so technically he wouldn't be able to bite off a ghoul's head.

Various things let you automatically confirm a crit, skipping the need to roll for it.

[Venger]

Various things let you automatically confirm a crit, skipping the need to roll for it.

that's true. can't think of any off the top of my head besides instinctive consummator, which can apply to vorpal. what I was saying wasn't about the impracticality of confirming the crit. I was guessing that since vorpal requires you to confirm the critical, that it wouldn't affect enemies that were immune to critical hits. I wasn't sure whether vorpal's specific would trump general, or whether the critical hit rules being primary source would take precedence.

[Inevitability]

that's true. can't think of any off the top of my head besides instinctive consummator, which can apply to vorpal. what I was saying wasn't about the impracticality of confirming the crit. I was guessing that since vorpal requires you to confirm the critical, that it wouldn't affect enemies that were immune to critical hits. I wasn't sure whether vorpal's specific would trump general, or whether the critical hit rules being primary source would take precedence.

The fact that there's a listed effect for vorpal'ed undead very strongly implies it is able to affect undead.

[Venger]

The fact that there's a listed effect for vorpal'ed undead very strongly implies it is able to affect undead.

oh yeah that's definitely true. I'm sure that was the intent, I just meant I wasn't sure RAW wise whether "undead are immune to crits" being the general rule on crits took precedence, or whether vorpal's specific trumping general would come out ahead

forgive me

assuming it did and you decapitated a ghoul or whatever, how the hell would he get his head back on? regenerate wouldn't work since it specifies a living creature, and while spark of life lets you be healed by positive energy, you're not considered a living creature for the purposes of effects. I guess you'd just have to sew it back on with a shoelace.