If Xykon's body gets destroyed, what will Redcloak do? (SoD Spoilers)

[Morquard]

Your theory assumes two things:
a) O-chul managed to inflict new scratches, which isn't guaranteed considering the absurd amounts of protection on that thing
b) Xykon had any time to actually examine the phylactery in detail after O-chul attacked it and before it got tossed into the sewers.

[Aeson]

With that, I can't figure out how it's to Redcloak's advantage to have stolen the phylactery, rather than destroying it (and still giving Xykon the fake, of course).

Do we know that liches can survive the destruction of their phylacteries? As far as I know, RAW is ambiguous on whether or not liches can exist without a phylactery. From the d20srd's page on liches, it would appear that the only necessary condition for the permanent destruction of a lich is the destruction of its phylactery, and one reading of "as a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery" would make that into a sufficient condition as well.

For that matter, I'm pretty sure that the comic is also ambiguous as to what happens if Xykon's phylactery is destroyed; one way of interpreting O'Chul's actions in #655-656 is that O'Chul believes that destroying Xykon's phylactery will destroy Xykon, and I don't think that there's anything in the comic that contradicts that interpretation. Of course, I don't think there's anything else in the comic that directly supports that position, either.

Chucking the thing in a rift would probably be the best idea.

No one knows what'll happen to Xykon or to his phylactery if it goes into a rift. If the phylactery survives going through a rift, Xykon might be able to reform within the rift-world and Redcloak probably wouldn't know about it. "Redcloak moved or switched my phylactery" is also the most obvious answer to "why am I not reforming in my astral fortress where my phylactery is supposed to be." That being the case, and assuming that Redcloak is reasonably smart, getting rid of Xykon's phylactery in a way which only might prevent Xykon from reforming and coming after Redcloak is a bad idea, especially if that way prevents Redcloak from determining the status of the phylactery or from becoming aware that Xykon is reforming prior to Xykon returning to the world.

[The Aboleth]

Your theory assumes two things:
a) O-chul managed to inflict new scratches, which isn't guaranteed considering the absurd amounts of protection on that thing
b) Xykon had any time to actually examine the phylactery in detail after O-chul attacked it and before it got tossed into the sewers.

Agreed on the 1st point--I even mention it towards the end of my first post.

As to the second, Xykon does recover the phylactery for a moment-he puts it on his belt/waist before it is stolen from him by O-Chul--but we don't know if he had any time to actually inspect it. In-comic would suggest not, but a cursory glance between panels isn't outside the realm of possibility as we have an abundance of evidence in-comic that many things happen off and between panels.

If we assume (and I agree it is a big assumption) that he had a quick moment to check the amulet for scuffs, then the question becomes "Would he even remember?" He can't even remember Roy's name, so it might not be likely. We also know that Xykon sometimes acts ignorant when in reality he just doesn't care, so it's really a matter of which you deem more likely in this case based upon how the story has progressed so far.

[Kish]

and I don't think that there's anything in the comic that contradicts that interpretation.

Start of Darkness. Been mentioned before; I would elaborate but I don't know if you're contesting it or don't know about it.

[Cazero]

I can't believe people compared Tsukiko, a minor asset that was given a chance to improve its value, to Xykon's phylactery, his personal insurance against the big fire below. The first one is disposable and barely consequential. The second one is of utmost importance and losing it triggers a "STOP EVERYTHING ELSE AND GET IT BACK" response.

[nleseul]

Hmm. An advantage that Redcloak gets from physically possessing the real phylactery as opposed to just destroying it is that he can put it wherever he wants, and thereby control where Xykon reforms after being destroyed. Perhaps his plan is to store the phylactery in some kind of perfect prison, with the intent that if Xykon ever gets destroyed, he will be trapped and unable to affect anything until Redcloak actually needs him for the Gate ritual.

[Aeson]

Start of Darkness. Been mentioned before; I would elaborate but I don't know if you're contesting it or don't know about it.

If it hasn't come up in the online comics, I probably don't know about it.

[Keltest]

Start of Darkness. Been mentioned before; I would elaborate but I don't know if you're contesting it or don't know about it.

Certainly it means Xykon doesn't think he needs his phylactery to continue existing, but Xykon is also explicitly not an expert on the metaphysics (or any other part) of Lichdom, or at least was not at the time.

Hmm. An advantage that Redcloak gets from physically possessing the real phylactery as opposed to just destroying it is that he can put it wherever he wants, and thereby control where Xykon reforms after being destroyed. Perhaps his plan is to store the phylactery in some kind of perfect prison, with the intent that if Xykon ever gets destroyed, he will be trapped and unable to affect anything until Redcloak actually needs him for the Gate ritual.

If Redcloak had some manner of controlling Xykon enough that he could compel him to do, well, anything, he wouldn't need to keep the phylactery secret.

[Goblin_Priest]

I have a thought that just occurred to me that is related to the discussion: What if Xykon already knows that Redcloak switched the phylactery on him?

Remember that Redcloak says in #831 that he had the fauxlactery created according to his memory. "Every detail, every scratch. Exactly as I remembered them. A perfect match." However, it's NOT a perfect match--in Comic #656, O-Chul hits the phylactery at least 4 times in an attempt to destroy it. Presumably, this would have left some scratches (Xykon does say "It's going to take more than that to scuff the finish," which is a point against my theory, but I'll say that this could be interpreted more as a "You're not going to destroy it that way" hyperbolic statement than a literal "It can't be scratched" statement).

Now, here's the thing: Redcloak would not have remembered these scratches on the phylactery because he wasn't there when they occurred--he escaped from O-Chul in #655, before the Paladin starts whacking at the amulet. So, there are scratches on the REAL phylactery that Redcloak was not aware of when he commissioned the fake one to be made.


Now, that begs the question: If Xykon DOES know about the switch because he recognizes the lack of marks that O-Chul had left, why didn't he smoke Redcloak right then and there? Hard to say. We do have it on record (I can't remember the comic, someone help me out) that Xykon says "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing." Perhaps the lich is ACTING like he doesn't know so that he can see what Redcloak has up his sleeve down the road?

I understand this theory hinges upon a very loose and tenuous assumption, and that there are serious counter-points against it (for example: if there were other scratches on the real phylactery, Redcloak could have seen them when he did the side-by-side comparison. He doesn't mention there are new scratches on the real phylactery, so that probably sinks my theory right then and there.) Still, I had the thought and felt the need to register on the forums and voice it. Thoughts from anyone else?

I do suspect that Xykon knows, and already acted on it, and thus that RC has the fake and that the real one is, indeed, in the astral fortress.

[WastedTalent]

Do we know that liches can survive the destruction of their phylacteries?

According to Libris Mortis, they can. Looked it up, it says so on p. 151.

Also:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

At some point in SoD Redcloak threatens to destroy the phylactery. Xykon is basically unimpressed about this, I think while stating something along the lines of it not doing anything to his current physical body.

Memory is weird.

True. Makes re-reading the comic a lot more fun though

What if Xykon already knows that Redcloak switched the phylactery on him?

While I salute your attention to detail, the main problem I have with this theory is that it would require Xykon to walk around accepting that if anything happens to his body, he will be at the mercy of Redcloak...while (in this scenario) knowing full well RC is actively working to undermine him. I accept that Xykon can be careless sometimes, but ignoring a threat like that seems a bit of a stretch. Besides, what would he really gain from fooling Redcloak in this manner? Well a few good punchlines probably, but there tend to be enough of those flying around either way :)

I can't believe people compared Tsukiko, a minor asset that was given a chance to improve its value, to Xykon's phylactery, his personal insurance against the big fire below.

If you're referring to any of my posts, I was never making a comparison of their respective worth to Xykon, since it's obvious. All I'm saying is, if Redcloak was able to casually crush Tsukiko, and then spin some half-truths to Xykon about his reasons for it afterwards, all without losing another eyeball - well, he might have another clever trick or two more hidden away.

[Quartz]

Now, here's the thing: Redcloak would not have remembered these scratches on the phylactery because he wasn't there when they occurred--he escaped from O-Chul in #655, before the Paladin starts whacking at the amulet. So, there are scratches on the REAL phylactery that Redcloak was not aware of when he commissioned the fake one to be made.

But Redcloak would know of them once the phylactery was recovered and thus in his hands.

[hroþila]

But Redcloak would know of them once the phylactery was recovered and thus in his hands.

But, by the time Redcloak recovered the real phylactery, the old jeweller had already crafted the fake one.

I don't think it's a problem, though - Xykon wouldn't be familiar with those new scratches either, since he barely got a look. And that's even assuming O-Chul managed to scratch it at all.

[Chei]

But, by the time Redcloak recovered the real phylactery, the old jeweller had already crafted the fake one.

I don't think it's a problem, though - Xykon wouldn't be familiar with those new scratches either, since he barely got a look. And that's even assuming O-Chul managed to scratch it at all.

He wouldn't have managed to scratch it. Xykon straight-up says "It'll take more than a few whacks with a metal bar to scuff the finish, pally" when O-Chul tries. He also says that the phylactery has so many abjurations on it, he's forgotten what most of them do. Abjurations that render an object impervious to non-magical metal whacking are pretty basic.

[Goblin_Priest]

While I salute your attention to detail, the main problem I have with this theory is that it would require Xykon to walk around accepting that if anything happens to his body, he will be at the mercy of Redcloak...while (in this scenario) knowing full well RC is actively working to undermine him. I accept that Xykon can be careless sometimes, but ignoring a threat like that seems a bit of a stretch. Besides, what would he really gain from fooling Redcloak in this manner? Well a few good punchlines probably, but there tend to be enough of those flying around either way :)

SoD does give us a good example of Xykon knowing he's being lied to, and acting ignorant about it.

I would not find out of character for Xykon to know about the switch, act on it, and then pretend he's never known. I wouldn't expect him to allow RC to carry around the real thing, but I do think him allowing RC to carry around what RC thinks is the real thing is plausible enough.

They are both powerful villains that need each other to reach their goals, and both have vested interests in keeping safeguards against each other without risking open conflict with each other.

[Seto]

SoD does give us a good example of Xykon knowing he's being lied to, and acting ignorant about it.

I would not find out of character for Xykon to know about the switch, act on it, and then pretend he's never known. I wouldn't expect him to allow RC to carry around the real thing, but I do think him allowing RC to carry around what RC thinks is the real thing is plausible enough.

They are both powerful villains that need each other to reach their goals, and both have vested interests in keeping safeguards against each other without risking open conflict with each other.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

I agree. I don't know whether Xykon knows Redcloak's been lying to him, but that's a possibility. Several times, Xykon has unexpectedly revealed that he's smarter than he lets on. One of those times, the end of SoD, was about minions plotting against him and Redcloak deceiving him.
When Xykon reveals that he knows stuff, that's also when he's at his most chilling and dangerous (in my subjective reading experience anyway). And what if Redcloak and Xykon's story was the story of the latter always crushing the former's hopes, even when RC has reason to believe that this time he has the upper hand? It would be "Redcloak's tragedy", which would make for a convincing sad counterpoint to the PCs' happy ending.

I'm not saying that's going to happen, because SoD itself already is Redcloak's tragedy. Besides, even if it does happen, it'll be short (I believe Team Evil will be defeated in the same fight) and RC's actions will matter this time; they'll give the OotS a crucial edge. But Xykon being aware of Redcloak's betrayal, and crushing him at the last moment, remains a possibility and would be narratively fitting.

[WastedTalent]

I would not find out of character for Xykon to know about the switch, act on it, and then pretend he's never known. I wouldn't expect him to allow RC to carry around the real thing, but I do think him allowing RC to carry around what RC thinks is the real thing is plausible enough.

But we've seen no in-comic evidence of Xykon second guessing wheather the phylactery's the real deal. Also, in 901, we see Xykon doesn't have much of a grasp on what Redcloak's true intentions are, more a general sort of mistrust because he knows Redcloak has motives of his own besides capturing the next gate. We've spent a lot of comics tracking where the phylactery went. Seems too large of a jump to suddenly have Xykon do a re-switch of it off-panel.

[Kish]

What I see in 901, is Xykon reminding his slave that he's in charge. Nothing about distrust, as such.

What I see in 700 and related strips, on the other hand, is that Xykon explicitly realizes he needs to know what the ritual to "control the Snarl" actually does, as distinct from what Redcloak claims it does.

[WastedTalent]

What I see in 901, is Xykon reminding his slave that he's in charge. Nothing about distrust, as such.

Redcloak wanted to wipe the order out right there, which would have been a tactically sound decision on the part of Team Evil. The OOTS was down both their wizard and cleric, and in a pretty sorry state to boot. Instead Xykon decides to immediately split, because he distrusts Redcloak and doesn't want him 'setting up another goblin colony'.

Since the gobbo's are still holed up at Azure City and there's no real reason for Redcloak to set up shop at another rift without a gate, it seems unlikely this was his actual intention.

Which shows that while Xykon rightly doesn't trust Redcloak (anymore), he also doesn't seem to have a very good grip on Redcloak's true motivations.

What I see in 700 and related strips, on the other hand, is that Xykon explicitly realizes he needs to know what the ritual to "control the Snarl" actually does, as distinct from what Redcloak claims it does.

There's certainly sóme level of recognition on Xykon's part that he doesn't really know enough about how the ritual works. It was only Tsukiko that found out about the details, though, and she never got to tell Xykon any of that, as far as the comic suggests.

[hroþila]

I don't think Xykon was at all concerned with Redcloak setting up a goblin colony at Girard's Gate. The way I see it, Xykon simply wanted to put Redcloak in his place, in the pettiest way possible and even against common sense, because he felt he had lost in the Tsukiko affair: he knew it was suspiciously convenient that Redcloak had killed Tsukiko (who Xykon knew to be loyal to him) right when he had told her to investigate the ritual, but he had to back off and pretend he knew nothing when Redcloak directly asked him about his half of the ritual. That was eating at Xykon, so he tried to compensate by reasserting his authority over Redcloak at the earliest opportunity. In my view, Redcloak's excuses (and fanfiction) simply allowed Xykon to save face, and thus he was glad to accept them for appearances' sake and to move on. Xykon never quite trusted Redcloak, but now he doesn't quite trust his leash either, and he's not willing to tip his hand and confront Redcloak openly because he still believes he will come out on top and rule the world after all of this, if he doesn't get carried away and kill Redcloak over what might ultimately be nothing.

That's the way I see it, at any rate.

[Kish]

Redcloak wanted to wipe the order out right there, which would have been a tactically sound decision on the part of Team Evil. The OOTS was down both their wizard and cleric, and in a pretty sorry state to boot. Instead Xykon decides to immediately split, because he distrusts Redcloak and doesn't want him 'setting up another goblin colony'.

I think you're reading Xykon's snarky reference to Gobbotopia way too literally. As I said, it looks to me like he said "shut up, we're leaving" to remind Redcloak who's in charge. That he didn't value killing his nemesis and the other protagonists of the comicthat guy he met before once, he thinks, maybe, and the group who...were with him then, weren't they? means that he doesn't care enough about the Order to view killing them as anything more valuable than killing a dozen remorhaz at Kraagor's Gate, not that he particularly wants them dead but sacrificed a chance to kill them to prevent Redcloak from doing something specific.

[WastedTalent]

I don't think Xykon was at all concerned with Redcloak setting up a goblin colony at Girard's Gate. The way I see it, Xykon simply wanted to put Redcloak in his place, in the pettiest way possible and even against common sense, because he felt he had lost in the Tsukiko affair: he knew it was suspiciously convenient that Redcloak had killed Tsukiko (who Xykon knew to be loyal to him) right when he had told her to investigate the ritual, but he had to back off and pretend he knew nothing when Redcloak directly asked him about his half of the ritual. That was eating at Xykon, so he tried to compensate by reasserting his authority over Redcloak at the earliest opportunity. In my view, Redcloak's excuses (and fanfiction) simply allowed Xykon to save face, and thus he was glad to accept them for appearances' sake and to move on. Xykon never quite trusted Redcloak, but now he doesn't quite trust his leash either, and he's not willing to tip his hand and confront Redcloak openly because he still believes he will come out on top and rule the world after all of this, if he doesn't get carried away and kill Redcloak over what might ultimately be nothing.

That's the way I see it, at any rate.

I don't think Xykon was just putting Redcloak in his place because he was looking for an opportunity to do so. In panel #5 of 901, Xykon seems willing to just tag along with Redcloak's suggestion that they go after the heroes.

It's only after the MitD reminds Xykon of how they sat on their butts for months after the battle for Azure City that he starts getting agitated about following Redcloak's suggestion. I don't think Xykon was literally worried RC might try to forge another goblin city on the spot, I think he was mostly angry at the idea of wasting more time on objectives that don't directly have anything to do with conquering one of the gates.

[hroþila]

I don't think Xykon was just putting Redcloak in his place because he was looking for an opportunity to do so. In panel #5 of 901, Xykon seems willing to just tag along with Redcloak's suggestion that they go after the heroes.

It's only after the MitD reminds Xykon of how they sat on their butts for months after the battle for Azure City that he starts getting agitated about following Redcloak's suggestion. I don't think Xykon was literally worried RC might try to forge another goblin city on the spot, I think he was mostly angry at the idea of wasting more time on objectives that don't directly have anything to do with conquering one of the gates.

Yes, but according to my interpretation, that only means the MitD gave Xykon a plausible way out to get petty on Redcloak and put him in his place. Maybe it didn't even occur to him before the MitD spoke or whatever.

[wumpus]

"Might"? That's quite a charitable view of Xykon.
...

Xykon doesn't strictly need Redcloak, he could try to find some way to take over the world or otherwise act on his ambition/boredom. And while Redcloak is a devout follower of the sunken cost fallacy, and generally unwilling to give up on the Plan after all his pursuit of it has cost him, even he would realize that being too dead to complete the divine half of the Gate ritual would be far more of a complication than trying to find another arcane caster for the arcane half of the Gate ritual.

While Xykon doesn't need Redcloak (he isn't all that committed to the Plan, he just thinks its the least boring thing going on this century or so), Redcloak needs Xykon even less. All he needs is an epic[?] arcane caster that can be tricked into performing the ritual (which presumably means a sorcerer, although often it is easier to trick the intelligent through their arrogance). We've seen more than a few epic level adventurers, presumably it would make more sense to find another (if he disguised himself well enough, old V' might have been a good choice once she got to epic. Hilarious sequel possibilities.

Finding a replacement for Xykon is likely easier than surviving keeping the phylactery and somehow managing to keep Xykon under control. I'm sure he knew that when he switched the phylacteries and is ready to keep killing Xykon until he can destroy the phylactery (and I'm sure the rift will work).

[Kish]

I didn't choke on that until your last parenthetical. You're sure throwing the phylactery into the rift wouldn't result in Xykon reforming, intact and furious with Redcloak, on the world inside the rift? I think that certainty is a bad idea.

[Jasdoif]

While Xykon doesn't need Redcloak (he isn't all that committed to the Plan, he just thinks its the least boring thing going on this century or so), Redcloak needs Xykon even less. All he needs is an epic[?] arcane caster that can be tricked into performing the ritual (which presumably means a sorcerer, although often it is easier to trick the intelligent through their arrogance). We've seen more than a few epic level adventurers, presumably it would make more sense to find another (if he disguised himself well enough, old V' might have been a good choice once she got to epic. Hilarious sequel possibilities.

Finding a replacement for Xykon is likely easier than surviving keeping the phylactery and somehow managing to keep Xykon under control. I'm sure he knew that when he switched the phylacteries and is ready to keep killing Xykon until he can destroy the phylactery (and I'm sure the rift will work).

The Plan doesn't specifically need Xykon, no. If that was Redcloak's only concern, he should have toasted the phylactery after Roy destroyed Xykon's body all the way back in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Redcloak's trying to have his cake and eat it too by fulfilling the Plan with Xykon, rather than admit to himself that killing Right-Eye ultimately had no benefit (by abandoning who/what he killed Right-Eye for).

Other than that, you seem to be basically agreeing with what I was saying...well, up until your certainty that the rift would work. It certainly doesn't destroy phylacteries consistently, and like Kish says it could become quite an issue if Xykon reforms on the other side...especially since the Plan involves keeping the rift around.

[Keltest]

The Plan doesn't specifically need Xykon, no. If that was Redcloak's only concern, he should have toasted the phylactery after Roy destroyed Xykon's body all the way back in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Redcloak's trying to have his cake and eat it too by fulfilling the Plan with Xykon, rather than admit to himself that killing Right-Eye ultimately had no benefit (by abandoning who/what he killed Right-Eye for).

Other than that, you seem to be basically agreeing with what I was saying...well, up until your certainty that the rift would work. It certainly doesn't destroy phylacteries consistently, and like Kish says it could become quite an issue if Xykon reforms on the other side...especially since the Plan involves keeping the rift around.

Redcloak may not be actively trying to ditch Xykon at the moment, but he certainly seems to be prepared to do away with him the moment Xykon is defeated, or, barring that, at least exert control over him again.

[Aeson]

Other than that, you seem to be basically agreeing with what I was saying...well, up until your certainty that the rift would work. It certainly doesn't destroy phylacteries consistently, and like Kish says it could become quite an issue if Xykon reforms on the other side...especially since the Plan involves keeping the rift around.

The line drawn indicating the phylactery's trajectory seems to pass in front of the large tear and between two of the rift-edge tendrils, which suggests that the phylactery never came into contact with any part of the rift rather than having fallen through it or bounced off of the rift edge or something like that. As such, I would say that the linked comic does not provide any evidence one way or the other for whether or not the rifts are capable of destroying Xykon's phylactery.

As far as comics which might provide some insight onto whether or not the phylactery could be destroyed by being thrown through a rift, I would suggest this one. Laurin seems confident that the ocean which can be seen on the other side of the rift can be used as a water source feeding a desalination plant, which suggests that she believes that neither the water nor whatever is used to bring it through the rift will be harmed by passing through the rift. We also know that Laurin has been telepathically probing the rift, and in the large panel at the end of the comic it looks like water might be coming through the rift as Snarl tendrils erupt from it. From this comic, we see that one character believes that at least some forms of matter can safely pass through the rift, we see evidence that that belief might be correct, and we see that at least some kinds of magic can pass through the rift without being corrupted/destroyed/harmed in any way which the caster cared to comment upon (though said magic does appear to have attracted the attention of something best left undisturbed). Xykon's phylactery is a bit of matter mixed with a bit (well, probably a lot) of magic, and what little evidence we have on the subject suggests that neither matter nor magic is harmed by passage through the rift.

[Ruck]

I didn't choke on that until your last parenthetical. You're sure throwing the phylactery into the rift wouldn't result in Xykon reforming, intact and furious with Redcloak, on the world inside the rift? I think that certainty is a bad idea.

I'm not certain at all, but given what we saw happen in the desert, I'm not certain there is an actual world in the rift, either. I think the Snarl might have become intelligent enough to disguise itself.

[mikelibrarian]

Redcloak could probably destroy the phylactery by casting distingrate on iy once a day until it it destroyed. He could also planeshift it to the Elemental Plane of Fire, The Positive Material Plane or to the Dark One's domain and ask his boss to deal with it.

From a story point of view, I can't see Xykon getting destroyed and Redcloak surviving. I find it much more likely, from a story point of view that Xykon knew of the deception and made the witch, which will force the Order of the Stick into a final boss fight in his Astral Plane dungeon.

[wumpus]

Redcloak could probably destroy the phylactery by casting distingrate on iy once a day until it it destroyed. He could also planeshift it to the Elemental Plane of Fire, The Positive Material Plane or to the Dark One's domain and ask his boss to deal with it.

From a story point of view, I can't see Xykon getting destroyed and Redcloak surviving. I find it much more likely, from a story point of view that Xykon knew of the deception and made the witch, which will force the Order of the Stick into a final boss fight in his Astral Plane dungeon.

It would certainly fit the "curses, foiled again" trope, where a villain tries repeatedly to destroy the multiverse. Since OOTS is a single work, that wouldn't be much of an ending.