Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found A Friend

[Wraith]

I'm not going to lie, I do have a squad of Terminators who are wielding Nemesis Pimp Canes, due to the almost perfect way in which the top half of their Halberd has snapped off and I haven't found a suitable way to reattach them.....

[Grim Portent]

Just look for some little balls, perhaps the ones from the Chaos Spawn kit, glue them on top and paint them silver.

[Wraith]

Honestly, the best way - assuming I don't just lose patience and replace the entire arm - is to cut the remaining haft out of the broken piece and filing the bottom of the blade flat, so that it marries smoothly with the Terminator's fist. It means they'll have a short spear, rather than a halberd, but they're far too fine to pin and trying to glue them straight back is an exercise in madness.

Similarly, despite my fondness for the army I am not in a position to comment upon the colour of Grey Knights' balls.... but if I were, they'd have to be gold. Nothing but the best bling for my lads.

[Grim Portent]

I am familiar with the pain of a broken halberd sadly. I tried a small Grey Knights force for a while back in 5th edition, half because I was wondering what all the hype was about and half because I liked the models a lot (originally bought some for conversion bits), and converted a Master of the Forge into a Grey Knights Techmarine, complete with head swap, backpack swap and arm swaps. Gave him a halberd that stuck out straight from his body. Damn thing broke far too often and I quickly tired of the Grey Knights, they just aren't my thing in many ways.

Poor guy is currently just sitting lost and alone in a box somewhere waiting for me to return to him and refurbish him.

[Cheesegear]

If (as you've frequently acknowledged) Marines are second only to Eldar, then by this logic what does that make you?

Not an Eldar player.

Either way there should be no reason to call people douches just for daring to show up with the models they own.

Sure there is. People can take a joke, and it's laughs all 'round, as Eldar players admit that their Codex is broken and they'll take the fact that they'll be ostracised for no fault of their own, de-power themselves by taking Dire Avengers and Rangers, instead of only Jetbikes. In this way, making Eldar players admit to the 'joke' not entirely being a joke, games against Eldar players can be fun, but they rarely are. Because I've seen someone randomly put together an Eldar list and still come out with a list that isn't terrible. For an individual person, that's great. For a game between two people, face-to-face...Social contract.
Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out.

Alternatively, Eldar players can't take a joke, flip out and try to justify themselves. Usually by targeting Marine players. Except what they fail to realise is that Marines aren't Eldar, and Eldar are still better, because you can randomly put together a list and still win games because half the units in the Eldar book are basically broken. As bats* insane as a Gladius is, Eldar players can beat it by barely trying, seeing as how everything they own can take a S6 weapon with a bajillion shots, and when the Marines come out of their Metal Bawkses, every unit that isn't packing a S6 weapon that easily cracks Rhinos/Razorbacks, carries Rending weapons than annihilate 5-man squads that a Marine player has to take in order to fit in the Gladius.
Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out, because then they'll justify themselves, and they'll fail.

"I'm taking a 1500 point list of yellow white scars to a 1250 tournament. But eldar are bad."

Yeah. But I'm not taking Eldar.
Also, I'm going to a tournament, so the Gladius is never off the table. But, the issue is that when I don't take the Gladius, in a normal/casual game with friends, when I play against Eldar players, it's not fun, because I never have a chance of winning in the first place, so why play the game if the outcome has already been determined? This is why people don't go to tournaments, because they can't win, and they have no chance of winning, so why show up? This is what it's like to play an Eldar player on a normal day.

Once, I took 6 Necron Tomb Blades to a Kill Team tournament, at the start of the day, I looked around the room, and didn't see my friend who plays SM Scouts with Rifles and Cloaks, and I didn't see my friend who plays Death Company, and I didn't see Plague Marines, etc. I immediately felt bad, because I had no chance of losing to anyone, and the game I did lose, was only by 1 Point (in a VP tournament, so 1 Point isn't even bad), and to another Necron player, at that. I felt bad, because I couldn't lose. As in, I already knew that I wouldn't lose, and was still going to play games, knowing that I've brought a gun to a knife-fight, no, a fist-fight. But I'm justified 'cause it was a tournament, right? Play to win.

Except if I played Eldar, even casually, I know that I would feel that way all the time, in non-competitive games, with my friends, who now wont play games with me because I play Eldar.

[LCP]

People can take a joke, and it's laughs all 'round

Ah yes, the 3 or 4 eldar players who responded to your comment were all falling about laughing.

"Can't you take a joke" is pretty much the catchphrase of bullies everywhere.

Social contract. Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out.

I tend to think of social contracts as being layered. "Don't call someone names over toy soldiers" would rank higher than "ensure optimum toy soldiery through name-calling". Particularly when the desired behaviour you're trying to produce is either "buy a whole new army" (i.e. a killer combo of "don't be poor" and "screw the time and effort you put into those models") or "stop playing the game".


Most importantly though, if you delete Eldar from the game - which is what the behaviour you're advocating aims to effectively achieve - every argument you just made works against you as a Space Marine player when playing against any non-Space Marine player. I still don't see anything that negates that point. If I'm e.g. a Thousand Sons player, what do I care about the academic distinction between the top 2 codexes when my chances of beating either are pretty much zero?

I really think under the "ostracise people for using broken codexes" model what you really have to do to be consistent is have everyone playing Sisters (or whatever you'd rank the worst codex to be).

[Cheesegear]

Ah yes, the 3 or 4 eldar players who responded to your comment were all falling about laughing.

If I put the statement in blue text, would that have helped?
...Except that I'm not entirely joking.

I did notice that they all tried to straw man me, though.

I tend to think of social contracts as being layered. "Don't call someone names over toy soldiers" would rank higher than "ensure optimum toy soldiery through name-calling". Particularly when the desired behaviour you're trying to produce is either "buy a whole new army" (i.e. a killer combo of "don't be poor" and "screw the time and effort you put into those models") or "stop playing the game".

The issue is, Eldar players can't help it. It isn't possible to downgrade themselves, unless they take the two or three only bad units in their Codex, and I can't ask them to do that, because that's actually not fair.
Eldar players can not help that their Codex is broke. Yes, more broke than the Gladius. It's not their fault. They can't do anything about it. But it has happened. And playing games against Eldar players is unFun, because there's nothing that anyone can do.

At best, you can bust in with #NotAllEldar, but it doesn't matter, because the damage is already done. Because I've been abused by Eldar more times than I can count in both 6th and 7th Ed., and the Eldar players weren't even meaning to. Casual Eldar are still broke.

Most importantly though, if you delete Eldar from the game - which is what the behaviour you're advocating aims to effectively achieve - every argument you just made works against you as a Space Marine player when playing against any non-Space Marine player.

Nice straw man. Except that several times, I have said that both Eldar and Marines need to be removed from the game. Several times. The only way to compete with Eldar is if you do play Space Marines. I'm lucky. I play Space Marines, and they can compete. Everyone else, though?

If your opponent plays Eldar, and you don't play Space Marines, you lose. End the game. Don't play. You're done. I'm saying this, as someone who plays Space Marines. I know what it takes to beat Eldar, and even I don't even come close some games. I. Don't. Even. Come. Close. Understand? And I run bright yellow White Scars! If that's what it's like for me, what special Hell must everyone else go through when they play against Eldar?

Stop saying I don't get to say anything because I play Marines. I have acknowledged the problem many, many times, and I know, I know that the only reason that I do compete with Eldar on any level, is because I play Marines. But that's the thing, Marines. Aren't. Eldar. Read that again. Because I don't think you've read it right. Only Marines can compete with Eldar, and then sometimes, not even then.

I really think under the "ostracise people for using broken codexes" model what you really have to do to be consistent is have everyone playing Sisters (or whatever you'd rank the worst codex to be).

FFS. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if you aren't getting games because your friends wont play you, you need to de-power your list. You just have to, or you wont get games, because people will resent you. Is it fair? No. But emotions aren't fair. Other people wont like you. I don't advocate it. But it's going to happen. Because "Eldar players are bad people." isn't actually entirely a joke.

When I play against newbies, I can choose not to play the Gladius. I can put Plasmaguns in Rhinos that I actually paid points for. I can take Devastators with Missiles instead of Drop Melta. I can not use Drop Pods at all and spam Scouts-with-Boltguns. The Space Marine Codex has bad options, that I can take, on purpose, in order to actually make a game that's competitive, without giving the impression that I 'let' my opponent win because they're new. I do everything smart, and I can still lose by 1 or 2 points, because my Codex has less good options that I can take, in order to get games with my friends.

Eldar players. Can't. Do. This. In a casual setting, Eldar players. Can't. Take. Bad. Options. There simply aren't any. The only way that an Eldar player can lose, is if they deliberately try to lose. By taking Guardians and Howling Banshees. By 'forgetting' to shoot with certain units. By 'forgetting' that their Farseers are only 100 Points and can cast Presience and Guide at the same time. To lose, an Eldar player has to not roll 6s when they shoot. They can't control that. There's nothing they can do. It's just the way it is.

EDIT:
Also, the White Scars' Gladius is shut down by 34 Points worth of Servo-Skulls. It's pretty easy.

[LCP]

"I'm joking (but not really)" is not really a step up from "can't you take a joke?". I hate to pull a 2016 Godwin but you know you're in shady territory when you find yourself re-using Donald Trump's lines.

I did notice that they all tried to straw man me, though.

You're imagining things. Let's review:

Now now! its called loyalty!
When certain models have led your army for some 20 years now, standing by you in brilliant victory and crushing defeats, though weird nerfs and random changes, though entire editions without an update to obsolete rules.. then you dont abbandon them just because the meta suddenly and unexpectedly changes to favor them! *raises fist to the sky, queue dramatic thunder*

Alternatively, it's called "I-can't-afford-a-new-army".

Besides, like, 50% of my army is Guardians. No Jetbikes, no Wraithknight. No vehicles, even (because, y'know, who needed to buy those when people gave me their spare Guardians for free, am I right?) Who needs to win?

"I'm taking a 1500 point list of yellow white scars to a 1250 tournament. But eldar are bad."

If we accept the definition of "straw manning" as "attributing any position to Cheesegear" or even "referring to Cheesegear in any way" then I see one out of three. I guess in Australia that's 100%? I'm not familiar with Upside Down Maths.

On the rest of your post: as far as I can see, you seem to be arguing that if an Eldar player deliberately selects suboptimal choices, then they are playing to lose, but if a Marine player does it, they are just being your friendly chum, out for a friendly game. To use two of your examples, I fail to see the distinction between a Marine player spamming boltgun scouts and an Eldar player spamming Guardians/Banshees. I'm pretty sure (they can correct me on this if I'm wrong) that there are several Eldar players in this thread who have posted previously about having a fairly high ratio of losses in friendly games. Clearly they're managing to build beatable Eldar lists somehow, and still having enough fun to continue playing.

But even if I accept as given your argument that Marines can be toned down whereas Eldar can't - even if the Eldar codex was just a series of killer tourney lists that could not be fielded in any other configuration - why could an Eldar player, turning up at his local club, not just say "hey guys I'm using Eldar, you play 1850 and I'll play 1500" (or whatever handicap he felt was appropriate). Why is that somehow a worse alternative to shaming this person and insisting they don't bring their models, even if they can't afford a different army, or are very attached to those models - or even if they just don't want to play another army, because they like Eldar? Why is it wrong to like a particular army?

I played plenty of games against WFB daemons with their 7th edition army book, which was just as far ahead of the pack as Eldar are now. I lost the vast majority of those games. I never thought that my opponents were "bad people" just for owning their army and wanting to use it. Even in a joking-not-joking sort of way. One of the club regulars had a fantastically-painted daemon army; I enjoyed playing him just to see his models. Not every game, obviously, but still.

Also, the White Scars' Gladius is shut down by 34 Points worth of Servo-Skulls. It's pretty easy.

I've read your White Scars list. How does a servo-skull shut down ~300pts of free vehicles in a 1250pt game? You just seem to be falling foul of your own prediction here:

Telling [high-tier codex] players that they're bad people, works out, because then they'll justify themselves, and they'll fail.

[Cheesegear]

I've read your White Scars list. How does a servo-skull shut down ~300pts of free vehicles in a 1250pt game? You just seem to be falling foul of your own prediction here:

Not being able to Scout means you're a parking lot of AV11. It's garbage. Most armies can pop AV11 without even trying. And it's a Parking Lot, which deserves to die.

[LCP]

It's a +25% free boost to the size of your army. That could be Conscripts with knives and it'd still be huge.

[Forum Explorer]

High five!

(hand goes clang, paint immediately chips off hand)

Followed by arms falling off. Stupid metal tyranids. Damn Hive Tyrant probably cost me years off my life.

Ah, the glories of my 'battle scarred' Wraithguard and 'malfunctioning stealth field' Wraithlord.

I'm not going to lie, I do have a squad of Terminators who are wielding Nemesis Pimp Canes, due to the almost perfect way in which the top half of their Halberd has snapped off and I haven't found a suitable way to reattach them.....

Now I really hope you've embraced their Pimpiness and blinged them out.

Not an Eldar player.



Sure there is. People can take a joke, and it's laughs all 'round, as Eldar players admit that their Codex is broken and they'll take the fact that they'll be ostracised for no fault of their own, de-power themselves by taking Dire Avengers and Rangers, instead of only Jetbikes. In this way, making Eldar players admit to the 'joke' not entirely being a joke, games against Eldar players can be fun, but they rarely are. Because I've seen someone randomly put together an Eldar list and still come out with a list that isn't terrible. For an individual person, that's great. For a game between two people, face-to-face...Social contract.
Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out.

Alternatively, Eldar players can't take a joke, flip out and try to justify themselves. Usually by targeting Marine players. Except what they fail to realise is that Marines aren't Eldar, and Eldar are still better, because you can randomly put together a list and still win games because half the units in the Eldar book are basically broken. As bats* insane as a Gladius is, Eldar players can beat it by barely trying, seeing as how everything they own can take a S6 weapon with a bajillion shots, and when the Marines come out of their Metal Bawkses, every unit that isn't packing a S6 weapon that easily cracks Rhinos/Razorbacks, carries Rending weapons than annihilate 5-man squads that a Marine player has to take in order to fit in the Gladius.
Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out, because then they'll justify themselves, and they'll fail.



Yeah. But I'm not taking Eldar.
Also, I'm going to a tournament, so the Gladius is never off the table. But, the issue is that when I don't take the Gladius, in a normal/casual game with friends, when I play against Eldar players, it's not fun, because I never have a chance of winning in the first place, so why play the game if the outcome has already been determined? This is why people don't go to tournaments, because they can't win, and they have no chance of winning, so why show up? This is what it's like to play an Eldar player on a normal day.

Once, I took 6 Necron Tomb Blades to a Kill Team tournament, at the start of the day, I looked around the room, and didn't see my friend who plays SM Scouts with Rifles and Cloaks, and I didn't see my friend who plays Death Company, and I didn't see Plague Marines, etc. I immediately felt bad, because I had no chance of losing to anyone, and the game I did lose, was only by 1 Point (in a VP tournament, so 1 Point isn't even bad), and to another Necron player, at that. I felt bad, because I couldn't lose. As in, I already knew that I wouldn't lose, and was still going to play games, knowing that I've brought a gun to a knife-fight, no, a fist-fight. But I'm justified 'cause it was a tournament, right? Play to win.

Except if I played Eldar, even casually, I know that I would feel that way all the time, in non-competitive games, with my friends, who now wont play games with me because I play Eldar.

I thought about it, but then I realized that, hey, I don't need to justify myself to you. You are a random person on the internet. So I'll keep playing and having fun with my Eldar like I have been for the past 15+ years. I will say, that no, you aren't joking, you're just being a rude jerk.


Also, despite how much you protest otherwise, every time you describe your meta it comes off as incredibly hyper competitive. (In comparison to mine, anyways). I mean you've more or less said, Eldar always win, and Dark Eldar always lose, and that simply isn't the case, in fact it's barely true at all in my meta.

[Cheesegear]

It's a +25% free boost to the size of your army. That could be Conscripts with knives and it'd still be huge.

When Daemons and Genestealer Cults can Summon?
When Chaos Marines are fielding Cultists that respawn for free and gain Outflank when they respawn? Grabbing Objectives all day.
- Ditto for Tyranids (except coming out of a tunnel in your opponent's DZ)

Free stuff only matters if it's good. I've seen actual games where someone goes 1000 Points vs. 1500. Intentionlly, and the guy playing 1500 still loses, because the 1000 Points the other guy brought was armed for bear, while the 1500 was garbage. Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't good, unless they Scout. Since it's totally easy to prevent Scouting, either with 34 Points worth of Servo-Skulls (even in Desperate or CtA Alliances, the Inquisitor starts the game in Reserve), or the other team brings Infiltrating Scout-blockers. It's not that hard. My Gladius has been beaten a bunch of times by people who play the game well, with a correct army list, that is geared towards being able to burst AV11 because it's the meta. If my opponent goes first because Coteaz Seizes the Initiative (Coteaz doesn't have to be on the board, and still brings 34 points of Servo-Skulls), then Tau, Eldar, dedicated shooty Orks (at least 5 Shokk Attack Guns). Does anyone remember this special Hell? (army list at the bottom)

Free Transports is only good because of the mobility it gives you (i.e; Scout). Take that away (i.e; Don't bring Kor'sarro, your opponent has Servo-Skulls or has Infiltrated against you because Strategic is amazing), and the Gladius sucks, because the guys inside will be MSU, and then you just start turkey shooting Marines in Power Armour, and you should be able to do that.

The only truly unfair Gladius, is the one with 9+ Drop Pods. Which I know is unfair, which is why I don't play it. I could. But I wont. Because I know if I do, I will never get games again. Free Rhinos/Razorbacks is perfectly beatable, because AV11 isn't strong, and if you can't beat Marines on foot then you probably wont beat a lot of things.

[LCP]

Never said that other free stuff was A-OK. Just that this particular free stuff was big. With any of the examples you gave I think it would be a challenge to hit 25% of your pre-existing points, and even if you did those free troops wouldn't have been on the board from T1. (They also rely on dice rolls and can be shut down by e.g. killing a psyker, or not killing a nothingy cultist unit; your free transports are included at list building and there's nothing the opponent can do).

In any case, you're going into the weeds on this point ("justifying yourself"?) and I'm not particularly interested in following. The main point - about shunning people over their choice of army - I think is made.

[Cheesegear]

The main point - about shunning people over their choice of army - I think is made.

I really want to use a bunch of buzzwords. But I think taking those phrases in the context of toy soldiers is taking it too far.

The Eldar Codex is strong. Really, really strong. I say this, as someone who takes the Gladius to tournaments, and loses. To Eldar. What does that mean for everyone else? As broken as people think the Gladius is, it still loses to Eldar who don't even try very hard.

#NotAllEldar

Eldar has a stupid strong Codex. Not everyone plays it that way. But it doesn't matter. Because even a bad Eldar list is still better than some Codecies' best lists.
Not everyone who plays Eldar is a bad person (if I'd used blue text, pretty sure this whole conversation would have been avoided). But there are enough bad people who do play Eldar to ruin it for everyone.

[Drasius]

Ha! This went down exactly as I expected.
- Someone finally acknowledges the elephant in the room that is eldar in a casual sett
- The eldar players get their panties in a bunch falling over themselves taking the high ground and almost fainting at the indignity (while throwing insults of their own in an undignified manner).
- Cheese tries to explain his original point of view better but makes a hash of it and only makes things worse.
- Now the eldar players will really come out swinging and it will become nasty and personal
- One more round of back and forth will happen
- Both parties agree that nothing productive will come from their current interactions and it will stay at a barely controlled simmer and the topic will get changed (though the occasional veiled insult will get made by both parties).
- Eventually the thread dies because one side leaves and the other side doesn't have enough to say to keep things going on their own.

Nice job ruining things. Damn eldar...

Since I can't stop this trainwreck now that it's started, I'm going to weigh in as one of the have nots and say that Cheese has mostly hit the nail on the head. If I play a random game, if I play against marines, if I request no gladius or grav spam, I can usually make a game of it. I don't even bother playing against eldar anymore since it just involves me setting up and putting away models. With crons I can hope to get into melee on objectives and win, but they're almost as bad as eldar. We don't have any daemons players who bring the cheese, so they are one aspect of the big 4 that I don't have to worry about.

The worst part is that the eldar players insist that their list really isn't that bad and that they're different to all the other eldar d-bags. I finally cave and look at their list and raise an eyebrow.
"What? I've only got 1 wraithknight and 2 units of jetbikes, and only one of those has scatterlasers!"
"And the aspect host of warp spiders?"
"So? They're not even that good!"
"Pass"

That's a strong part of what cheese and I are talking about. I'm not sure if it's the haughty, better than thou background of the eldar that seems to bring out the worst in people, but in my experience, otherwise reasonable human beings turn into total d-bags when their eldar come out of their case.

I used to take my thousand sons to tournaments. I wouldn't come first, but I would rack up a win or two and give some people a fright. Now? No chance. You say you shouldn't have to buy a different army so we will play you? Well we shouldn't have to buy a different army to play against you with a chance of winning either, but that's the situation we're in. Either everyone else has to buy a new army or you do, and as with most things, the path of least resistance wins out.

Even if you discount all of that, there's one last thing that really hammers it home. I don't have fun playing against eldar. The only other army that even comes close to being as unfun is tau. Think about what that means.

Also, since it seems appropriate, I'm going to repost my favourite 40k comic;

Also, the White Scars' Gladius is shut down by 34 Points worth of Servo-Skulls. It's pretty easy.

Khan is shut down by the now mandatory inquisitor due to the only thing as prominent as eldar scum is marine scum of all colours bandwagoning onto the white scars train. The fact that you have a Gladius with a couple of hundred points more than the other side, all of it objective secured and highly mobile, doesn't suddenly unhappen because someone else was forced to bring an inquisitor or automatically lose (unless they are playing eldar). "Teh oh noes! I have to start in my own deployment zone like everyone else. That means I'll have to move and only get 3 grav shots first turn. I don't even have room to deploy all these free rhino chassis if I can't start half way up the board." Boo freaking hoo, cry me a river.

Edit: ninja'ed 7 times in the time it took me to write that.

[LCP]

@Cheesegear: I don't see anything there that isn't just a more concise repeat of what you said in post #217. Rather than rehash the argument, I direct you to post #218, paragraphs 4-6.

@Drasius: I'm not an Eldar player*! Everything I've said applies just as much to Wraith's experience with GK, or any other army that rides the codex release rollercoaster.

*briefly had a small Eldar army in 3rd Ed but I don't think that counts

[Blackhawk748]

I see what Cheese is saying, its like the Vanilla Marines from 5th. There where enough D-Bags that it ruined the army for a ton of people (myself included for awhile) even though there where pleny of lists that werent BS. Also ya, the Eldar Codex is insane when a randomly constructed one could be the best Ork list available. Hell if you can construct a list off of random choices and still have good odds of winning, its a bad codex.

In short i disagree with calling Eldar players bad people when there are DBags chucking out 3+ Riptides and 3+ Wraithknights who are the real bad people

Khan is shut down by the now mandatory inquisitor due to the only thing as prominent as eldar scum is marine scum of all colours bandwagoning onto the white scars train. The fact that you have a Gladius with a couple of hundred points more than the other side, all of it objective secured and highly mobile, doesn't suddenly unhappen because someone else was forced to bring an inquisitor or automatically lose (unless they are playing eldar). "Teh oh noes! I have to start in my own deployment zone like everyone else. That means I'll have to move and only get 3 grav shots first turn. I don't even have room to deploy all these free rhino chassis if I can't start half way up the board." Boo freaking hoo, cry me a river.

Here f***ing here. A buddy used to play Imperial Fists and then jumped onto the White Scars bandwagon in 6th. Ill be honest when i say i got Ad Mech partially to be able to absolutely destroy him. The other reason is cuz i want my army of cyborg zombies and cybered to all hell soldiers, but their ability to make Marines die in droves is a very delicious icing.

[Cheesegear]

In short i disagree with calling Eldar players bad people when there are DBags chucking out 3+ Riptides and 3+ Wraithknights who are the real bad people

I once took a Gladius with a Riptide Wing. My opponent looked me in the eyes and said "You are never using that list again." I have three Riptides on my shelf that haven't been used since that game.

[Blackhawk748]

I once took a Gladius with a Riptide Wing. My opponent looked me in the eyes and said "You are never using that list again." I have three Riptides on my shelf that haven't been used since that game.

Theres a very good reason for that. 1-2 Riptides (without FnP) can be dealt with by most armies. Anymore than that (or frankly just about any number of them with FnP) are such a pain in the a** to deal with unless you have Grav that they should go die in a fire. (yes. I hate those things.)

[Drasius]

...why could an Eldar player, turning up at his local club, not just say "hey guys I'm using Eldar, you play 1850 and I'll play 1500" (or whatever handicap he felt was appropriate). Why is that somehow a worse alternative to shaming this person and insisting they don't bring their models, even if they can't afford a different army, or are very attached to those models - or even if they just don't want to play another army, because they like Eldar?

I've seen this play out, 1850 of eldar vs 2500 of BA. The BA were effectively tabled turn 4, the eldar player lost something like 6 models. Giving away that sort of handicap is shaming the opponent, even if it's not intentional and cheapens their wins since "they only won because they took more points" and adds extra gravitas to their losses "ha, even with an extra [X] points you still lost".

Why is it wrong to like a particular army?

Because eldar attracts d*ckheads and even on the off chance that you just have a fetish for elves in space and you're actually the nicest person ever, you're going to be tarred with the same brush because the other 95% of people who have the same plastic toy man dollies are total **** *****.

[LCP]

I've seen this play out, 1850 of eldar vs 2500 of BA. The BA were effectively tabled turn 4, the eldar player lost something like 6 models.

That sounds like an extreme case, not a good benchmark. If the imbalance were really this bad overall then tournament podium places shouldn't be approximately 100% Eldar, they should be exactly 100% Eldar, no exceptions.

Giving away that sort of handicap is shaming the opponent, even if it's not intentional and cheapens their wins since "they only won because they took more points" and adds extra gravitas to their losses "ha, even with an extra [X] points you still lost".

I'd disagree. Points handicaps (in the opposite direction - giving extra points) were in the 8th Ed. ETC comp for the bottom three armies in WFB (Beastmen, Brets and Tomb Kings)*. I never met a Beastman, Bret or TK player whose attitude to those extra points was "I don't want your pity". It's just an acknowledgement that the base game is unbalanced, and a sticking-plaster fix to rebalance it without making controversial changes to the rules. This was the top-flight tournament comp in Europe too - the people concerned were plenty competitive.

*They scaled depending on how many of the books' "crutch" units the player took, but they were there.

Because eldar attracts d*ckheads and even on the off chance that you just have a fetish for elves in space and you're actually the nicest person ever, you're going to be tarred with the same brush because the other 95% of people who have the same plastic toy man dollies are total **** *****.

It really sounds like there are some specific people you know personally who you are venting about through this discussion. In any case I don't find this kind of phrasing gels well with previously accusing Eldar players in this thread of throwing "undignified insults" and getting "nasty and personal".

I can only speak from my personal experience, but I've lost tournament games against highly competitive people (who I don't think I'd be friends with outside the context of the game) using top-tier army books that I've enjoyed much more than games I've played and won (or drawn - clock-running being a frequent feature) against a certain kind of player, regardless of what army book that player is using. In an environment like 7th Ed I can see how that type of player would flock to the Eldar codex, but I don't think that justifies talking down to the Eldar players here as if they're all complicit in the same asshattery. You say "be tarred with the same brush" in the passive but you're definitively one of the people doing the tarring here.

This comes back around to the main point I was trying to make earlier I guess: if painting everyone who uses a certain book as evil fun-ruiners is how you "comp" your games, with a sorry-not-sorry to those who aren't jerks out to ruin your fun, but are just trying to have fun themselves (which I will continue to assume is the majority of people), then the cure is worse than the disease.

[Vaz]

Wow, **** the stereotyping in this thread. No-one comes onto the internet to read **** like this. Get better gaming groups/don't play the ********s/organise houserules. I'd much rather play an Eldar player than Drasius or Cheesegear, going by the comments here.

It seems to be that Eldar players genuinely don't populate the internet at all. Like don't participate in any online discussion, whatsoever, and scrotes trying to pull the moral high ground because they play broken ("but it has counters!" they whine) armies that aren't AS broken as Eldar is honestly one of the most hypocritical/stupid arguments I've ever seen. Are you seriously not over "but they did it first".

Cut the ****, and go back to talking about your little army men with actual constructive discussions that I do enjoy reading more than baiting each other with quasi-intelligent veiled insults. That is more cancerous to the hobby than a broken army. Grow up.

[LordDavenport]

Mildly related note, I have tried to read all of the latest codexes, but can't physically bring myself to look at the eldar codex. Like, eldar art physically hurts my eyes. I try, psyching myself up. "it is only pictures of space elves, you can do this." Then the pin head helmets, oh god the pin head helmets. I look at a page, then immediately close the book in disgust, bile on my tongue. A few months later I go "It couldn't have been that bad. I have even enjoyed eldar art on /tg/, I must have been overreacting." I open the codex again, and once more I flee. My eyes burn. I howl at the moon "that helmet was bigger then its torso. No head should be that long." Slowly, Gradually, I collect my sanity, move on. Ever so carefully I burn the memories from my mind. Their are flashes, but over the weeks then months they fade. Finally clear in head and heart, I am at peace.

Much later, when considering some theory crafting, I wonder why I haven't read the Eldar codex. Such a foolish oversight, why, I have it on the shelf right there, bound in chains of blessed silver and oiled electrum. Wondering why I went to such lengths to seal the tome, I begin to undo the bindings. I remove warnings, writing them off as a simple fancy. Finally, the ghastly cover is revealed. If at that moment you asked me what was on the cover, I would say a battle scene. Were you to press me for a more precise description, I would try to focus. Then my eyes would slowly glaze over, and if asked again I would babel dazedly.

In my hands is a book, with a cover depicting battle. About it are strewn chains of metal, waxen seals, bits of paper. How odd, well obviously I dozed off while reading. No book mark, how strange! Well, I don't rightly remember any of the book, so I should start at the beginning. The old leather creaks as I begin to lift the cover. My eyes go wide, my jaw slackens. I try desperately to pull my eyes from the page, then from my skull. I am hindered by chains, glittering chains binding my arms to my chair, forcing my head to bow forward. The cover continues to lift itself, WHY OH WHY DID I IGNORE THE WARNINGS WRITTEN IN MY OWN HAND, more and more of the page is revealed. THANK THE LORD ALMIGHTY, a table of contents. For a moment, I breath a sigh of relief, minding myself to join a monastery in gratitude. Then the cracked parchment page, or at least what looks to be parchment, begins to lift itself. I try to scream, but the chains now bind my lips. Silently then I mutter prayers hoping for any possible rescue. Why oh why did I dream the metals would be untainted, that I might slip the books unearthly grasp. Finally, the first image is revealed. For a moment I see it, and comprehend it. Then I see red... black... then nothing.

I sit huddled in my study, shakily drinking brandy. When I woke the book had gone, with it all memory of the contents. I had three days growth of beard, much of it white. I will never be free of it, but I hope in time the tremors will subside. For now I drink to forget, to pass the time until the sun rises... if it ever shall again.

[Forum Explorer]

Because eldar attracts d*ckheads and even on the off chance that you just have a fetish for elves in space and you're actually the nicest person ever, you're going to be tarred with the same brush because the other 95% of people who have the same plastic toy man dollies are total **** *****.

OP teams attract ********s, there's nothing specific to Eldar that makes them worse. Other then they've been OP for 2 editions now.

Mildly related note, I have tried to read all of the latest codexes, but can't physically bring myself to look at the eldar codex. Like, eldar art physically hurts my eyes. I try, psyching myself up. "it is only pictures of space elves, you can do this." Then the pin head helmets, oh god the pin head helmets. I look at a page, then immediately close the book in disgust, bile on my tongue. A few months later I go "It couldn't have been that bad. I have even enjoyed eldar art on /tg/, I must have been overreacting." I open the codex again, and once more I flee. My eyes burn. I howl at the moon "that helmet was bigger then its torso. No head should be that long." Slowly, Gradually, I collect my sanity, move on. Ever so carefully I burn the memories from my mind. Their are flashes, but over the weeks then months they fade. Finally clear in head and heart, I am at peace.

Much later, when considering some theory crafting, I wonder why I haven't read the Eldar codex. Such a foolish oversight, why, I have it on the shelf right there, bound in chains of blessed silver and oiled electrum. Wondering why I went to such lengths to seal the tome, I begin to undo the bindings. I remove warnings, writing them off as a simple fancy. Finally, the ghastly cover is revealed. If at that moment you asked me what was on the cover, I would say a battle scene. Were you to press me for a more precise description, I would try to focus. Then my eyes would slowly glaze over, and if asked again I would babel dazedly.

In my hands is a book, with a cover depicting battle. About it are strewn chains of metal, waxen seals, bits of paper. How odd, well obviously I dozed off while reading. No book mark, how strange! Well, I don't rightly remember any of the book, so I should start at the beginning. The old leather creaks as I begin to lift the cover. My eyes go wide, my jaw slackens. I try desperately to pull my eyes from the page, then from my skull. I am hindered by chains, glittering chains binding my arms to my chair, forcing my head to bow forward. The cover continues to lift itself, WHY OH WHY DID I IGNORE THE WARNINGS WRITTEN IN MY OWN HAND, more and more of the page is revealed. THANK THE LORD ALMIGHTY, a table of contents. For a moment, I breath a sigh of relief, minding myself to join a monastery in gratitude. Then the cracked parchment page, or at least what looks to be parchment, begins to lift itself. I try to scream, but the chains now bind my lips. Silently then I mutter prayers hoping for any possible rescue. Why oh why did I dream the metals would be untainted, that I might slip the books unearthly grasp. Finally, the first image is revealed. For a moment I see it, and comprehend it. Then I see red... black... then nothing.

I sit huddled in my study, shakily drinking brandy. When I woke the book had gone, with it all memory of the contents. I had three days growth of beard, much of it white. I will never be free of it, but I hope in time the tremors will subside. For now I drink to forget, to pass the time until the sun rises... if it ever shall again.

This a work of art. You should be proud of yourself.

[Brookshw]

Orks & Nids baby, Orks & Nids.

[LordDavenport]

This a work of art. You should be proud of yourself.

Admittedly a mild exaggeration. I dunno, maybe it is the uncanny valley, but eldar codex art freaks me out. So whenever people talk about it, I feel a bit left out.

Edit:

Orks & Nids baby, Orks & Nids.

That actually sounds like an interesting game. Smaller scale skirmish game, simplified mechanics given the inherently specified sides. Some cool asymmetrical rules and win conditions. I would play that as a table top game.

[Brookshw]

That actually sounds like an interesting game. Smaller scale skirmish game, simplified mechanics given the inherently specified sides. Some cool asymmetrical rules and win conditions. I would play that as a table top game.

I really want to paint up a series of killa kans and a dreadnaught in a protest line w/ little signs to waive;
What do we want?
Trash can rights!
When do we want them?
Waaagh!

That or build a warboss sized throne made out of guns and toss it on a modded buggy, run it as a warboss on bike & call it games of dakka or something

[LeSwordfish]

I once took a Gladius with a Riptide Wing. My opponent looked me in the eyes and said "You are never using that list again." I have three Riptides on my shelf that haven't been used since that game.

If I made a £250 purchase and my group forbid me from using it in more than one game, I'd find a new group.

[Drasius]

If the imbalance were really this bad overall then tournament podium places shouldn't be approximately 100% Eldar, they should be exactly 100% Eldar, no exceptions.

If the tournament scene was just eldar and BA, then you'd be correct, but very few people are silly enough to take BA to a serious tourney. The gap between eldar and BA was/is one of the largest in the game.

... the bottom three armies in WFB (Beastmen, Brets and Tomb Kings)*. I never met a Beastman, Bret or TK player whose attitude to those extra points was "I don't want your pity".

And I don't recall a beastmen player ever achieving anything of note, even with the extra points allowance and IIRC, there was just 1 significant win for TK with khalida and a big block of like 100+ skelly archers.

It really sounds like there are some specific people you know personally who you are venting about through this discussion.

The "specific people" are eldar players in general, nothing more and nothing less.

You say "be tarred with the same brush" in the passive but you're definitively one of the people doing the tarring here.

I know, I thought I made my position quite clear that if you play eldar then there's an extremely high probability (in my experience) that you're no fun to play against. If you think that myself and cheesegear are the only people with this attitude, go search dakkadakka for a thread about banning the eldar codex from tournament play, plenty of people in there with similar sentiments.

This comes back around to the main point I was trying to make earlier I guess: if painting everyone who uses a certain book as evil fun-ruiners is how you "comp" your games, with a sorry-not-sorry to those who aren't jerks out to ruin your fun, but are just trying to have fun themselves (which I will continue to assume is the majority of people), then the cure is worse than the disease.

They can have their fun with someone else, I never said that eldar players can't play, just that I don't want to play them. If I meet one of the few eldar players who aren't "jerks out to ruin my fun", then I will gladly play with them, but the current count of eldar asshats to decent people is 15:1, so those are fairly slim odds compared to the 3:>100 of all the other codecies (1 necron, 1 space marine and 1 tyranid if you are interested).

Wow, **** the stereotyping in this thread. No-one comes onto the internet to read **** like this. Get better gaming groups/don't play the ********s/organise houserules.

Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.
As for getting better gaming groups (we slowly did by not playing eldar)/ not playing ********s (again, my position has already been stated, I don't play them anymore outside of tournament draws where I don't have a choice).

It seems to be that Eldar players genuinely don't populate the internet at all. Like don't participate in any online discussion, whatsoever, and scrotes trying to pull the moral high ground because they play broken ("but it has counters!" they whine) armies that aren't AS broken as Eldar is honestly one of the most hypocritical/stupid arguments I've ever seen. Are you seriously not over "but they did it first".

Firstly, calling others names after adopting the moral high ground doesn't strengthen your position. Second, Eldar players are everywhere on the net, but you don't see them defending accusations that their codex is OP because it very plainly and demonstrably is OP. Any defence that it isn't is usually dissected and laughed off in short order. Thirdly, I do play on of the least powerful armies currently available, I have at least some claim on the high ground when complaining about elder power levels.

Cut the ****, and go back to talking about your little army men with actual constructive discussions that I do enjoy reading more than baiting each other with quasi-intelligent veiled insults. That is more cancerous to the hobby than a broken army. Grow up.

Then make a constructive post of your own and don't try and stop people from expressing views that you don't like.

Awesome story about the uncanny valley effect of the eldar dex

I always thought that was what the eldar were meant to be. Human'ish, but with the proportions not quite right and hard to pinpoint exactly why. I would say that the art is having exactly the right effect and was working as intended. Loved the write up though, very 40k (or the old WHFB, reminds me of the opening of the first archaon book where belakor was introduced).

[Forum Explorer]

If the tournament scene was just eldar and BA, then you'd be correct, but very few people are silly enough to take BA to a serious tourney. The gap between eldar and BA was/is one of the largest in the game.

What is BA anyways? Blood Angels?