Would like some help light-optimizing a character

[Doombolt]

Hello! So I'm new to posting in the GITP forums, and I'd like some help with a plan-going forward for my character. The initial concept was Muscle Wizard focused on using the Lost Tradition feat to switch my casting stat to Strength, and after a post in r/DnD (which I recently learned frowns upon even light optimization) I ended up with a Half-Minotaur Water Orc Duskblade. I don't know how heavily optimized that is for 3.5 (I think the 30 Str is huge though! I'm relatively new to 3.5 so I don't know how big that is), but I don't want to be too overpowered.
I've been suggested to look at the Abjurant Champion and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil prestige classes, and the Initiate one at least looks really cool (I've never used a prestige class before); but I wouldn't know when the right time to go into those would be.
For full information, the character is a level 3 (would be level 4 but I bought off the level-adjustment for the half-minotaur template) Duskblade with 30 STR, 16 DEX, 20 CON, 10 INT, 12 WIS, and 9 CHA after racial adjustments (we rolled stats). I grabbed Power Attack at 3rd level, and obviously Lost Tradition at 1st, and spent my starting gold on a +1 Greatsword (to match my main character's, more on that in a moment) and a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt. Finally, I have the cantrips Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Flare and Ray of Frost, and the 1st level spells Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, True Strike and Resist Energy.
Final bit of information: this character is the cohort for my main character (completely unoptimized high-charisma party face barbarian with Leadership), and my replacement if that character retires or dies. Don't know if anyone needed or wanted to know that, but it's there just in case.
Thanks in advance to anyone who reads this and considers replying!

[Venger]

Hello! So I'm new to posting in the GITP forums, and I'd like some help with a plan-going forward for my character. The initial concept was Muscle Wizard focused on using the Lost Tradition feat to switch my casting stat to Strength, and after a post in r/DnD (which I recently learned frowns upon even light optimization) I ended up with a Half-Minotaur Water Orc Duskblade. I don't know how heavily optimized that is for 3.5 (I think the 30 Str is huge though! I'm relatively new to 3.5 so I don't know how big that is), but I don't want to be too overpowered.
I've been suggested to look at the Abjurant Champion and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil prestige classes, and the Initiate one at least looks really cool (I've never used a prestige class before); but I wouldn't know when the right time to go into those would be.

Welcome!

we're much friendlier to the idea of optimization here, so fret not.

Is your GM allowing all this stuff? bastards and bloodlines is 3rd party, something a lot of people don't allow, alongside half-minotaur, which is from a dragon magazine.

in short, there's more to optimizing than having big numbers. 30 str will sure let you do a lot of hit point damage, but since you're siphoning all your points from your int, you'll be able to do little else.

the reason wizard (and other int-SAD classes) are the most powerful is because int is the best thing to have as your primary stat, not in spite of it. it provides skills that can be handy in identifying monsters and other things, qualifying for feats and prestige classes, and other stuff. it's also vital in fueling knowledge devotion, something almost all duskblades take, and something that as-is, you're not going to be able to enjoy.

abjurant champion is a good class, but offers nothing to a duskblade, you've already got casting and full BA.

if you've never used a prestige class before, initiate of the sevenfold veils might be a lot of bookkeeping for you. it's very impractical to qualify for with stuff besides wizard. the feat taxes won't help you while you're trying to get in, and it doesn't provide much synergy for a duskblade, tanking your BA.

that said, it's one of the most powerful prcs in the game. full casting, only 7 levels, and your veils are unbeatable unless someone has those 7 weird spells prepared.

you can enter a prestige class as soon as you qualify for it by meeting the prerequisites.

the absolute soonest you can enter iotsv normally is 10, taking 9 levels in something else first, and then your tenth being in the prc, since it requires 12 points in some skills, and the skill cap is your character level + 3 for class skills.

iotsv will make you pretty much indestructible in combat. if the rest of your party isn't playing characters as high-op as this, you may wish to keep it in reserve until the rest of the party is approximately on your level so you don't overshadow everyone. if you want to just be muscle wizard, punch things, and cast some spells sometimes, staying in duskblade might be a better mesh for your playstyle.

[Bucky]

(I think the 30 Str is huge though! I'm relatively new to 3.5 so I don't know how big that is)

It would be a big deal at level 1 or 2, because the ability to charge something to death on anything but a nat 1 is a useful capability. Starting at level 3, though, level appropriate enemies often have 25+ HP so your 2d6+16 sword attack is no longer an automatic win if you land it.

[Venger]

It would be a big deal at level 1 or 2, because the ability to charge something to death on anything but a nat 1 is a useful capability. Starting at level 3, though, level appropriate enemies often have 25+ HP so your 2d6+16 sword attack is no longer an automatic win if you land it.

Honestly, if he's a vanilla duskblade and charges with knowledge devotion and arcane strike, he'll be able to oneshot level appropriate enemies well beyond 3.

even at level 3, he's going to get a guarunteed +1 from knowledge devotion, will be dealing base weapon damage of 3d6 (half-minotaur makes a medium race large) and deal +15 from strength, then +1 from magic weapon.

already, that's 3d6+17, which is pretty ok for lvl 3. when arcane strike is up at level 9, he can add 3d4 to all attacks in a round too

this stub is very good at dealing HP damage, it just might have a little trouble doing other stuff. depending on what kind of game it is, this may or may not be a problem

[Bucky]

I missed the size increase. That does bring the tankier CR3 opponents (e.g. lions with 32 HP) barely within one-shot range.

CR1-2 Basically everything has 20 HP or less and gets one-shot
CR3 Can still reliably one-shot the squishier enemies, but needs to roll well to one-shot the tougher 4HD group.
CR4-5 Can still often one-shot humanoid enemies, but the big dumb HP sacks that have 8+ hit dice will always survive a hit.
CR 6+ Can generally only one-shot enemies that have small class HD.

CR 6 is about the top of what you could expect a level 3 character to face, which would represent a boss incounter. He's still a disproportionately large threat to those enemies, but can't just win initiative and kill the boss on his own before it gets a turn like he could at level 1 vs. a level 4 boss.

[Venger]

I missed the size increase. That does bring the tankier CR3 opponents (e.g. lions with 32 HP) barely within one-shot range.

CR1-2 Basically everything has 20 HP or less and gets one-shot
CR3 Can still reliably one-shot the squishier enemies, but needs to roll well to one-shot the tougher 4HD group.
CR4-5 Can still often one-shot humanoid enemies, but the big dumb HP sacks that have 8+ hit dice will always survive a hit.
CR 6+ Can generally only one-shot enemies that have small class HD.

CR 6 is about the top of what you could expect a level 3 character to face, which would represent a boss incounter. He's still a disproportionately large threat to those enemies, but can't just win initiative and kill the boss on his own before it gets a turn like he could at level 1 vs. a level 4 boss.

yeah that's definitely a fair assessment. like I said, he'd function in a given party like a stock ubercharger: when he can do his one thing, he'll do it well, outside that niche, he may struggle to contribute.

[Kaje]

As for when to go into a different class, since you are at level 3, you already have arcane channeling, so if you're ok with just that, you can move on to a different class any time. Your next break point would be level 13, when you get full attack channeling.

[Doombolt]

Hey guys! So I'll take that advice Venger gave me about keeping IotSV in reserve, because nobody else in the party is highly optimized at all.
Also a quick reminder for the guys having the discussion about CR and stuff; this guy is starting out as a cohort to a level 6 character, so that might help in deciding how OP he is.
Also Venger I did ask my DM and he's cool with 3rd party stuff as long as I run it by him first (he allowed the stuff I've used so far, and I think he'd be cool with a lot of stuff). And if I use IotSV I'm fine with bookkeeping; I've been the quartermaster (read as 'guy who has to write down all the gear and money the party gets and keeps track of who has what') in another campaign.
Given the advice I've seen so far I think I'll stay in Duskblade until level 13, and then maybe go into IotSV if the party is ready. Although; the thread is still fresh and my mind is open!

[Hogsy]

Hello! So I'm new to posting in the GITP forums, and I'd like some help with a plan-going forward for my character. The initial concept was Muscle Wizard focused on using the Lost Tradition feat to switch my casting stat to Strength, and after a post in r/DnD (which I recently learned frowns upon even light optimization) I ended up with a Half-Minotaur Water Orc Duskblade. I don't know how heavily optimized that is for 3.5 (I think the 30 Str is huge though! I'm relatively new to 3.5 so I don't know how big that is), but I don't want to be too overpowered.
I've been suggested to look at the Abjurant Champion and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil prestige classes, and the Initiate one at least looks really cool (I've never used a prestige class before); but I wouldn't know when the right time to go into those would be.
For full information, the character is a level 3 (would be level 4 but I bought off the level-adjustment for the half-minotaur template) Duskblade with 30 STR, 16 DEX, 20 CON, 10 INT, 12 WIS, and 9 CHA after racial adjustments (we rolled stats). I grabbed Power Attack at 3rd level, and obviously Lost Tradition at 1st, and spent my starting gold on a +1 Greatsword (to match my main character's, more on that in a moment) and a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt. Finally, I have the cantrips Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Flare and Ray of Frost, and the 1st level spells Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, True Strike and Resist Energy.
Final bit of information: this character is the cohort for my main character (completely unoptimized high-charisma party face barbarian with Leadership), and my replacement if that character retires or dies. Don't know if anyone needed or wanted to know that, but it's there just in case.
Thanks in advance to anyone who reads this and considers replying!

You could try the PF Magus instead of the Duskblade if your DM would allow it, since he goes online at level 2. The PF archetypes could also give you a lot of versatility as would the arcanas. Besides that, Duskblade into Abjurant Champion is a very solid choice and would give you tons of AC. Keep in mind, however, that AC fades away after some point if you don't invest heavily in it. I feel like the Abj. Champion does though.

As for whether your character is OP or not, I personally don't believe in the notion of "overpowered". Still, since this guy is in addition to your regular character so him dealing 30 damage on a charge, +30 with each iterative attack and haste on a full-attack might be a bit much considering your other character is the party face who's also a barbarian, so he could also do half of that with minimal optimization. You could look to retrain your barbarian into a hybrid class like a Bard or a Rogue and still be the party face while offering other, possibly more interesting, options. If your DM allows PF content, you could look into the Skald class. It's a hybrid class between Barbarian and Bard.

[Doombolt]

You could try the PF Magus instead of the Duskblade if your DM would allow it, since he goes online at level 2. The PF archetypes could also give you a lot of versatility as would the arcanas. Besides that, Duskblade into Abjurant Champion is a very solid choice and would give you tons of AC. Keep in mind, however, that AC fades away after some point if you don't invest heavily in it. I feel like the Abj. Champion does though.

As for whether your character is OP or not, I personally don't believe in the notion of "overpowered". Still, since this guy is in addition to your regular character so him dealing 30 damage on a charge, +30 with each iterative attack and haste on a full-attack might be a bit much considering your other character is the party face who's also a barbarian, so he could also do half of that with minimal optimization. You could look to retrain your barbarian into a hybrid class like a Bard or a Rogue and still be the party face while offering other, possibly more interesting, options. If your DM allows PF content, you could look into the Skald class. It's a hybrid class between Barbarian and Bard.

I actually play as a Magus in the Pathfinder campaign I play in, so I'm familiar with it. I'd rather not bring Pathfinder stuff into the campaign if I can avoid it though so that the PF and D&D campaigns continue to feel different. I might see about retraining my main character into a Bard though, since he is the party face and we have other characters (Monk and TWF Ranger both with 18 str, plus my cohort we're talking about) that can handle the whole smashing thing; although I'm sure I'd miss raging (though I definitely wouldn't miss being the dominate/charm target due to my pitiful Will save).

[Hogsy]

I actually play as a Magus in the Pathfinder campaign I play in, so I'm familiar with it. I'd rather not bring Pathfinder stuff into the campaign if I can avoid it though so that the PF and D&D campaigns continue to feel different. I might see about retraining my main character into a Bard though, since he is the party face and we have other characters (Monk and TWF Ranger both with 18 str, plus my cohort we're talking about) that can handle the whole smashing thing; although I'm sure I'd miss raging (though I definitely wouldn't miss being the dominate/charm target due to my pitiful Will save).

You could always make him a Skald(PF, but different from what you play) which allows both you and others to rage. If you do go the Bard route, do not underestimate that class. It is my personal favourite and I hold it to a much higher regard than T1 classes. Just optimize his inspire courage and you'll be crushing without even needing to swing a blade. Main character aside, if you're already playing a Magus, wouldn't it be a bit boring to play a Duskblade? They're basically the same class. You could always try a Martial Initiator(Tome of Battle) which has the same "feeling" due to maneuvers but is otherwise completely different fluff-wise. The Swordsage is versatile while the Warblade is a better fighter, allegedly. Take a look at this Swordsage variant.

[Doombolt]

You could always make him a Skald(PF, but different from what you play) which allows both you and others to rage. If you do go the Bard route, do not underestimate that class. It is my personal favourite and I hold it to a much higher regard than T1 classes. Just optimize his inspire courage and you'll be crushing without even needing to swing a blade. Main character aside, if you're already playing a Magus, wouldn't it be a bit boring to play a Duskblade? They're basically the same class. You could always try a Martial Initiator(Tome of Battle) which has the same "feeling" due to maneuvers but is otherwise completely different fluff-wise. The Swordsage is versatile while the Warblade is a better fighter, allegedly. Take a look at this Swordsage...

My Magus is a Dex build, so I roleplay him as dancing around the battlefield casting Shocking Grasp and the like, whereas this Duskblade is all strength, so I can roleplay his spells as reality reshaping by his brute strength.
Also because the concept was 'Muscle Wizard by making casting stats Strength' and Duskblade was suggested and seemed to fit pretty well; making use of the strength while also being able to cast spells. Also Magus/Duskblade/Eldritch Knight/Swordmage/whatever is my favourite class to play, to it'd be hard for it to get boring for me
If I did go Bard; how would you recommend I optimize the inspiration?
Oh and I had to cut the link out of your post so I could actually post this reply

[Venger]

My Magus is a Dex build, so I roleplay him as dancing around the battlefield casting Shocking Grasp and the like, whereas this Duskblade is all strength, so I can roleplay his spells as reality reshaping by his brute strength.
Also because the concept was 'Muscle Wizard by making casting stats Strength' and Duskblade was suggested and seemed to fit pretty well; making use of the strength while also being able to cast spells. Also Magus/Duskblade/Eldritch Knight/Swordmage/whatever is my favourite class to play, to it'd be hard for it to get boring for me
If I did go Bard; how would you recommend I optimize the inspiration?
Oh and I had to cut the link out of your post so I could actually post this reply

ok. I hope you have fun with this character. let us know how it works out. as I mentioned earlier, dumping int will render knowledge devotion useless, and may make qualifying for feats/prcs trickier down the line, so keep that in mind when selecting classes.

huh? if you click the "reply with quote" button at the bottom right of someone's post, it'll quote the whole thing even if they have a link in there.

[Doombolt]

ok. I hope you have fun with this character. let us know how it works out. as I mentioned earlier, dumping int will render knowledge devotion useless, and may make qualifying for feats/prcs trickier down the line, so keep that in mind when selecting classes.

huh? if you click the "reply with quote" button at the bottom right of someone's post, it'll quote the whole thing even if they have a link in there.

Oh and last bit; since Knowledge Devotion will be useless and I'll have a hard time qualifying for Int based feats, what feats do you recommend I pick up instead?

[Venger]

Oh and last bit; since Knowledge Devotion will be useless and I'll have a hard time qualifying for Int based feats, what feats do you recommend I pick up instead?

well, as I mentioned earlier, arcane strike is a very popular choice for duskblades. since you're rolling a brute, the shock trooper line might appeal to you, as might leap attack since with your huge strength, you'll have a pretty good bonus to jump.

[Hogsy]

I'll be sure to keep you guys posted once I get to start playing him!
Oh and when I was trying to post the reply it said I needed to have a post-count of 10 to post links, and I guess it determined that quoting someone else's link counted as posting it myself

Well, in 3.5, there are 2 spells that each increase Inspire Courage by a +1(Inspirational Boost & Harmony), there's a feat that adds another flat +1.(Song of the Heart). Then there's a feat that doubles the bonus granted by Inspire Courage which is called Words of Creation. Now, whether it doubles the bonuses granted by other sources is debatable, but regardless a Lvl 8 Bard grants a +7 or a +10 to attack & damage rolls to all allies(including himself) within 30 feet. With a feat from Dragon Magic(Dragonfire Inspiration) you change the +7 or +10 bonus to attack and damage rolls(per attack mind you) to a +xd6 of the elemental damage of your draconic ancestry per bonus given by Inspire Courage.

After that, you can take Snowflake Wardance to add your charisma to attack rolls, Improvasion(a level 1 spell) to gain a pool of luck points equal to twice your CL to add to attack rolls, damage rolls(?) or skill checks. There are other bard spells worth taking as well. You can take Metamagic Song to use Bardic Performance uses per day to pay for metamagic costs and go the Persist Spell route. There are many spicy things to do with a Bard, I suggest you look up some builds for additional info.

As for the Duskblade, you can always take him the Abj. Champion route later on and have him tank while dealing sufficient damage, and with your Bard's buffing "sufficient" damage will be more than enough .

[Darrin]

Oh and last bit; since Knowledge Devotion will be useless and I'll have a hard time qualifying for Int based feats, what feats do you recommend I pick up instead?

You don't quite have enough spell levels yet to get any decent reserve feats (Complete Mage), but the other Devotion feats in Complete Champion might be worth a look. Animal Devotion is a great grab-bag of useful utility abilities, particularly at low-levels where 1 minute of flight can be a game-changer. Strength Devotion gives you a slam attack and makes all your attacks count as adamantine. Water Devotion summons a water elemental 1/day.

Mobile Spellcasting (Complete Adventurer) might also be useful on a Duskblade chassis. It's a move action to use Arcane Channeling, and then you can use a standard to move + cast another spell (for buffing). You can also use it to cast two swift action spells per round: one as a swift action, and another as a standard action.

As a support character, Draconic Aura (Dragon Magic) is a good 3rd level feat, particularly if you can get the Dragon Shaman's Vigor aura (PHBII). The text isn't clear if the available auras are restricted to just those listed in Dragon Magic, or if you can take any draconic aura in other sourcebooks as well.