Erfworld 67, page 61

[ErikZ]

The part I find interesting is that this is the second major setback that they've had fighting Stanley. This is the second time that they've had to face something clever/unusual and they still haven't come to the conclusion that Parson is doing it.

I'd be shocked if Jillian didn't tell Ansom and company about him.

[ChowGuy]

On second thought, it also may be possible to recruit a disgruntled captured warlord.

Well I'm pretty sure it possible for Wanda to "recruit" a croaked one, if she has a fresh body. Seeing as Uncroaked "have no will" of their own.

I'd be shocked if Jillian didn't tell Ansom and company about him.

As pointed out elsewhere, Jillian hasn't had a chance to tell Ansom yet, she was prevented from returning to or communicating with Ansom by Webinar. As to why she didn't tell him, aside from the fact that he doesn't trust her and probably never has, what she knows is hearsay at best. That sort of high-level intelligence would need to be evaluated by the entire warlord council. She could hardly tell the (distrustful) Webinar how she came into possession of it, as she's already had to lie about escaping through the tunnels. Ansom, for all we know, is fully aware of whatever previous dealings she's had with Wanda and would be in a better position to hear the full story.

[Gez]

Jillian and the archerons

What the boop are archerons? Are they archers from Acheron?

[DCR]

The part I find interesting is that this is the second major setback that they've had fighting Stanley. This is the second time that they've had to face something clever/unusual and they still haven't come to the conclusion that Parson is doing it.

I'd be shocked if Jillian didn't tell Ansom and company about him.

Wanda's compulsion majik/faeri dust is prob'ly why Jill didn't say anything? Judging from how freely Wanda spoke, it's worked before... 'cause Wanda seems the type to never talk about personal issues unless she's absolutely certain it's safe.

And the first time Ansom and co. came up against Parson's strategies, they were working against a good news/bad news whiplash and an enormous loss of very important units. Hard to think when everything is going Kafka. I think they'll deduce new enemy brains after the sun goes down.

[Daedalus73]

If they can simply cloak their units then there was no point in Parson coming up with the dwagon fort in the first place.

Yes there was. To set the trap that will lead to croaking/capturing of Ansom and the Arkenpliers.

[SteveMB]

As pointed out elsewhere, Jillian hasn't had a chance to tell Ansom yet, she was prevented from returning to or communicating with Ansom by Webinar.

She was in possession of the hat from the time she encountered Webinar's group up until the frank and open discussion after she declared her intention to head back to the column. If she had (or thought she had) vital information for Ansom, she could have sent it then.

That said, it's possible that she doesn't consider the hat to be sufficiently secure for a message that must go to Ansom and nobody else. That would make sense if a message can be taken by anyone with physical access to the receiving hat.

As to why she didn't tell him, aside from the fact that he doesn't trust her and probably never has, what she knows is hearsay at best. That sort of high-level intelligence would need to be evaluated by the entire warlord council. She could hardly tell the (distrustful) Webinar how she came into possession of it, as she's already had to lie about escaping through the tunnels. Ansom, for all we know, is fully aware of whatever previous dealings she's had with Wanda and would be in a better position to hear the full story.

I doubt that anyone in the Coalition, Ansom included, knows anything beyond "Jillian has repeatedly been captured and escaped". Some of them are a bit suspicious of this pattern.

If Ansom knew about Jillian's dealings with Wanda, even in a highly distorted version of events, I don't see why he would tell her his plans (what does she need to know, really, beyond "we need you to cover us against dwagon raids"?). It also doesn't seem to make sense that he would express concern about her being croaked or captured (if he knows that her captures are part of some covert op contact with Wanda, the former is unlikely and the latter is the whole point).

Wanda's compulsion majik/faeri dust is prob'ly why Jill didn't say anything? Judging from how freely Wanda spoke, it's worked before... 'cause Wanda seems the type to never talk about personal issues unless she's absolutely certain it's safe.

Or perhaps Wanda intends for Jillian to take this information home, for any of several possible reasons:

1. Disinformation: The discrepancy between Wanda's description of the spell to Stanley during the sales pitch and to Jillian during their post-interrogation chat has been noted before.

2. Pretending to betray Stanley: Wanda may be head-gaming Jillian into believing that she's really on her side, feeding her useful intel to take home (after the regrettable necessity of extracting intel to satify Stanley). If so, the "escapes" might be staged to appear to be Wanda acting on her own account, slipping Jillian out past Stanley's guards.

3. Actually playing both sides of the game: Wanda may be laying the groundwork for saving her own skin if Gobwin Knob falls by pretending that she was helping Ansom's side all along.

[ChowGuy]

If Ansom knew about Jillian's dealings with Wanda, even in a highly distorted version of events, I don't see why he would tell her his plans (what does she need to know, really, beyond "we need you to cover us against dwagon raids"?). It also doesn't seem to make sense that he would express concern about her being croaked or captured (if he knows that her captures are part of some covert op contact with Wanda, the former is unlikely and the latter is the whole point).

It's clear that they've met before and had "dealings" but it's less clear when or what those dealings were. I've already offer up the opinion that Jillian and Wanda were at one time on the same team, probably before Stanley wiped out the Croatan tribe and, willingly or not, Wanda came into his camp. If so, Ansom ought to know of that, but given even Vinny "don't know what he did to Zamussels" the others need not.

As for sharing his plans and his concern, even if he knows there is or may still be something going privately between the two, he could be A) using Jillian to feed disinformation to Stanley, and B) fully aware that a double-agent's life is fraught with peril. It seemed to be entirely her choice to expose herself anyway. She's just the sort that would like to "play spy" and Stanley was not happy about the idea of releasing her, nor was Parson, but did so only because that was the only way they thought the "trap" could be made to work.

[tainsouvra]

Here's an interesting thought I just had that would explain Ansom's actions: he think Stanley's an idiot (rightfully so). Protecting his assets is well within what Ansom perceives as Stanley's capabilities, but tactical trickery like this is beyond him.

However, something as bluntly useless as veiling wounded units in the middle of a giant, unveiled ring of dwagons is something that, in his mindset, Stanley is certainly incompetent enough to try at.

That's why he was dead certain the wounded units were right there in the middle of the fort.

"Of course! They're veiled! Only Stanley would be stupid enough to do that! Attack!"

I concur. In fact, I've only seen two other possibilities championed, and neither is very appealing:

1) Ansom plans to punch through.
...he doesn't have enough movement to do that right now, unless we're going to see a deus ex machina solution (bleh).

2) Ansom realizes Stanley isn't in charge, looked deeper at the strategy, and is going to use a weakness Parson didn't know about in order to even the odds.
...why exactly would Ansom realize he's facing a new opponent who is able to use nested tricks on him, then immediately make another action that is in all probability part of the trickery? Ansom can't know Parson is from another universe entirely, at this point, which means all he could know is that he's facing a shrewd tactician.

-----

On a different subject entirely, I've noticed a lot of talk about Stanley getting and using the Arkenpliers. That doesn't seem appropriate for that artifact. Stanley uses brute force to accomplish his goals. He attunes to a hammer, a fitting tool, and gets units with lots of raw power from it (dwagon swarm). Who would attune to a tool used for gripping and with a demonstrated interaction with the uncroaked?
...and won't it be dramatic when Stanley isn't the sole carrier of an attuned Arkentool?

I'm thinking Wanda, personally. An argument can be made for Parson, but it's not as complete. Sizemore has the appeal of being really unexpected, but I don't believe it's the appropriate tool for his character, something more like an Arkentrowel makes more sense.

[tainsouvra]

here is something I don't understand - Apparently, Ansom is boobed by now. But why wouldn't this have been the case if it wasn't a trap and the nest really was there?

Sure Tool's forces would have taken some heavy losses from it, but surely the fort formation of dwagons would have boobed Ansom at the next turn anyway?

No, they wouldn't have. Turn-based combat is very finicky about power imbalances, a small offensive advantage during an attack translates to a very large imbalance in the number of casualties.

Had the wounded dwagons and uncroaked warlords been in the center hex, Ansom would be a moment away from victory right now.

This isn't RTS, this isn't real life...it's turn-based combat. The rules are different.

[ChowGuy]

...why exactly would Ansom realize he's facing a new opponent who is able to use nested tricks on him, then immediately make another action that is in all probability part of the trickery?

Perhaps because he still doesn't, yet. He says that such a thing is "beyond him" but when Vinny says "it looks like a pretty shrewd trick he replies "Yes. (pause) It does. (pause) Yes it does!" I read that last part as it looks lile a shrewd trick, but since I know Stanley's not that shrewd, looks must be deceiving. The enemy really is in there!" That was Wanda's take as well, even without seeing the conversation.

[jindra34]

On the subject of why Ansom charged into the middle of a death trap:
I believe this is because he is just grasping for straws. He is panicing and trying to get something done that might allow him to survive.

[SteveMB]

On the subject of why Ansom charged into the middle of a death trap:
I believe this is because he is just grasping for straws. He is panicing and trying to get something done that might allow him to survive.

I don't know about "panicking", but definitely grasping at straws. Denial ain't a river in Egypt....

[ChowGuy]

(remember, Parson doesn't know he can veil units in that frame).

To be honest, we don't know that Parson/Stanley can veil units either. While his question may only be rhetorical, Wanda still hasn't answered it. All she's said is that Ansom would rather believe they [could] have done so.

Parson's reaction is actually more interesting. It's not the "Woo Hoo" of his first accidental discovery (that Ansom had no table), nor is it simply dumbfounded. His body language, and particularly the little lines around his head, is more typical of comic convention for an "Oh Noes!" but I can't think what problem he sees in the concept.

[grumbleboom]

Basically as stated before, there are MANY things about the combat system that we just don't know. We can assume that things are turn based, or we can assume that things happen at the same time, or we can assume that warlords get first hits... different battles in the comic point to different answers.

As for Ansom, he's definately grasping at straws and trying to salvage this turn.

[tainsouvra]

It's taking for one thing the assumption that combat proceeds in turns, when in fact we've seen nothing to confirm that, or even indicate it. To the contrary, from just about every instance of combat we've it appears that once initiatied it proceeds in real-time, with both sides acting simultaneously.

Have you seen both sides inflicting damage in the same panel? I only recall seeing one side attack at a time, with the other side usually attacking in the following panel. Presentation seems turn-based, I've seen no indication at all that combat is real-time. You're seeing preparation and positioning with the panels you mentioned, but the actual inflict-and-receive damage never seems to happen simultaneously. Damage has consistently been presented as a back-and-forth rather than real-time.

Also, if realtime existed in combat, it probably wouldn't have needed to be defined. It was an inconceivable design to Stanley.

Perhaps because he still doesn't, yet. He says that such a thing is "beyond him" but when Vinny says "it looks like a pretty shrewd trick he replies "Yes. (pause) It does. (pause) Yes it does!" I read that last part as it looks lile a shrewd trick, but since I know Stanley's not that shrewd, looks must be deceiving. The enemy really is in there!" That was Wanda's take as well, even without seeing the conversation.

I agree completely. I don't think #1 or #2 of the "other possibilities" I gave is particularly viable.

[sihnfahl]

To be honest, we don't know that Parson/Stanley can veil units either. While his question may only be rhetorical, Wanda still hasn't answered it. All she's said is that Ansom would rather believe they [could] have done so.

Given the past history of 'revelations' to Parson, it's probably safe to assume that they're capable of veiling units. The point still stands - the possibility of veiling units was completely unknown to Parson and didn't factor into his tactics.

Parson's reaction is actually more interesting. It's not the "Woo Hoo" of his first accidental discovery (that Ansom had no table), nor is it simply dumbfounded. His body language, and particularly the little lines around his head, is more typical of comic convention for an "Oh Noes!" but I can't think what problem he sees in the concept.

Not a problem, just a missed opportunity. If he knew he could veil the wounded dwagons and warlords, he could have used different tactics. Like using all the dwagons to decimate the siege on the first pass, find a safe place to park them, then veil them to protect them even from scouts. And, on next turn, use the full force to hit the column again and return to GK.

His current tactic ran on the assumption that the dwagons could and would be found. Hence, the initial fort to protect the low-move and low health dwagons when he thought Ansom had a similar setup as him, then the updated fort to draw away counterattackers when he realized Ansom has to use scouts...

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Have you seen both sides inflicting damage in the same panel? I only recall seeing one side attack at a time, with the other side usually attacking in the following panel. Presentation seems turn-based, I've seen no indication at all that combat is real-time. You're seeing preparation and positioning with the panels you mentioned, but the actual inflict-and-receive damage never seems to happen simultaneously. Damage has consistently been presented as a back-and-forth rather than real-time.

Also, if realtime existed in combat, it probably wouldn't have needed to be defined. It was an inconceivable design to Stanley.

Note the battle with the Heavies against the Spidew troops. They were getting and giving at the same time. Note the Elves charging the dwagons...they were attempting to attack when they were killed. Note the dwagon assault against the marbits and how the archers were shooting the dwagons the entire time they were killing troops.

It may not be 100% 'realtime' as we know it, but it is obvious that it is not exactly a turn based combat system. There was some element of free style and formations, initiative...could be alot of things.

Of course...even if 'turns' are taken in turn, if combat is realtimeish...there are exploits in that too depending on special abilities, range and that sort of thing.

Take MechCommander 2. A buddy of mine found a great tactical 'bug'. Certian long range weapons have a knockback effect...these units could be stacked in such a way that the enemy gets peppered with long range fire and then gets knocked back repeatedly and cannot advance or get stationary to fire. In essence, a small squad of mechs equipped correctly could stand indefinately against an endless swarm of enemy mechs as long as they didn't have jump capability or came in too great numbers, or had extreme range weapons like artillary or Gauss rifles.

Parson could eventually find a battle tactic that does something similar such that a single stack in a hex could through a mix of special abilities hold a pass against an unlimited number of enemies given the correct circumstances...and since they can see everything, they could know if they are bringing anything that could pose a problem.

One thing that would make me smile is if non-combat structures couldn't be attacked...things like wells, or even a toll booth couldn't be captured or destroyed and also could not be bypassed...If that was true, I would laught so damn hard if Parson pulled a Blazing Saddles and stuck a toll booth on the only road into Gobwin knob and charged a few shmuckers for each unit that passed...

"Someone has gotta run back to Spacerock and get a boopload of dimes!"

[Doug Lampert]

I'm thinking that since there is no need for Ansom to preserve his units (if there arn't a bunch of dragons in that hex) he might as well just blaze his way through the other side of the dragon circle and fight his way back to the column.

He PROBABLY doesn't have the move.

They used "about all" their move to get to the center. So they probably have some left (else why the about). But straight through to the Column is 4 move from the 3 Dragon Hex, and back arround to the Column is 5 move from the 3 Dragon Hex.

Parson though Ansom entering the center was nice but not vital, so at 3 Dragon Hex his stack probably had 2-4 move left (enough that entering the center isn't QUITE out, but not enough to get back no matter what) and thus he now has 1-3 left.

He can only reach the Column if he has 3 move left. Possible but unlikely. OTOH he can almost certainly kill another dragon stack NOW while they are relatively isolated and don't have bonuses from the uncroaked warlords or from being in a max stack.

There's also the question of whether Ansom or Vinnie may have more move available than the stack, but that's unknown and depends on way too much. (Like can a unit move with a stack but retain a higher remaining move than the stack?)

[ChowGuy]

Have you seen both sides inflicting damage in the same panel?

Yes, and I was careful to point out specific instances. Of course if you don't think having your arm ripped off while bring down a rock, or being stabbed while nomming counts as "both sides inflicting damage" that's OK. And those arrows aren't just "setting up" they were already in flight. Now maybe you think the arm, and the arrows, have "stop action" while the other guy moves, but that's taking the idea of "turns" to extremes.

[dither]

6 Turns Later...

Heh, I thought of something that made me laugh. Given the tendency of the forum members here to talk each and every strategy to death, I think it'd be a hoot if that second-to-last panel was the last we ever saw of Ansom alive, and the story simply cuts to days later as Parson is discussing his plan to conquer the rest of whatever continent they are on... while the Tool is busy fiddling around with the Arkenpliers and casually ignoring Parson.

... mwah hah hah...

[Doug Lampert]

here is something I don't understand - Apparently, Ansom is boobed by now. But why wouldn't this have been the case if it wasn't a trap and the nest really was there?

Sure Tool's forces would have taken some heavy losses from it, but surely the fort formation of dwagons would have boobed Ansom at the next turn anyway?

What changes the equation from Ansom's perspective to have made him think he would escape alive being surrounded when going in to hit the wounded stacks in the centre to all of the sudden being boobed when they aren't there?

If he'd hit them he'd have killed 19 Dragons and 3 Warlords, all low on hits already so he'd probably get them cheap. Now he won't hit then, all of those units COMPLETELY heal at the start of Stanley's next turn.

He'll be facing about twice the force he expected to have to survive. Personally I expect Parson to try to get the Tool to IGNORE Ansom and go after the column again.

I'm with

[sarcasm]Yeah, Parson/Stanley are only outnumbered 24.8 to 1, rather than 25 to 1! They might as well start partying now! Why, the enemy faction is even about to lose its competent and astute leader! Huzzah![/sarcasm]?

That's why they need to kill ALL the siege next turn while they have the chance. Kill Ansom and it only really helps if that causes the enemy alliance to break up, and why should it? Ansom's just a warlord, he serves King Slately who will still be fine no matter what happens here.

A big fiasco MIGHT break the alliance, but killing their field commander is unlikely to be a big ENOUGH fiasco if everyone actually has cause to hate Stanly.

[dither]

A big fiasco MIGHT break the alliance, but killing their field commander is unlikely to be a big ENOUGH fiasco if everyone actually has cause to hate Stanly.

w00t. Seconded.

[grumbleboom]

however.... Note that Jilian has already dealt with her dragon when we see the orlies getting WTFBBQed. Note also that Webinar tells his troops (who have ranged attacks) to "hold fast." Thus allowing the spidews to close. Then in 63 the elves attack then the dwagons.

At no time so far have we seen a warlord being attacked at the same time that he/she is getting his/her hits in. That includes the Dwagon attack on the column. Every single dwagon getting shot doesn't have the band around its neck signifying a rider. Even in the very last panel the only (i know there are only 3 shown) dwagon Without arrows in its hide is the lead dwagon with a rider.

The only visible hit on a dwagon with a rider is the first shot by the archers which hits Leroy's. And that was while he was flying over.

[tainsouvra]

Note the battle with the Heavies against the Spidew troops. They were getting and giving at the same time.

No, they weren't.

Panels:
1 - noncombat.
2 - noncombat.
3 - spidews move.
4 - bears attack with rocks. Spidew makes a noise but does not attack.
5 - spidew bites.
6 - bears attack with rocks, one dies during his attack.
7 - giraffe attacks with face.
8 - leader and mount attack.
9 - leader speech, possibly attack.
10 - noncombat.
11 - noncombat.
12 - noncombat.

The only panel that even remotely comes close is #6, in which the bear dies while attacking (but not being attacked). However, given that spidews are known to have a poison attack, and that bear had been bitten by a spidew in the previous panel, and most games of this time have poison tick on the victim's move, this is very likely to be a trivial observation.

Note the dwagon assault against the marbits and how the archers were shooting the dwagons the entire time they were killing troops.

It's a nice visual, but you may note that no dwagon is damaged while dealing damage. There are just arrows hanging in the air, which is not unlike other turn-based games I've played in which the act of firing occurs on your turn, and its damage is determined, but the animation of the arrow's flight will continue as the next unit acts. In other words, it's a nice visual/artwork but does not reflect on the actual mechanic involved.


While it is possible that combat is realtime, we have seen no evidence of it occurring and some evidence that it does not occur. I'm siding with Occam until we get a sign that it does occur.

[Airshark]

There's a simple proof of that; Ansom was able to move into the middle hex after defeating one of the outer hexes; if adjacent hexes were in combat, he'd have to clear three outer hexes to get into the center.

Simpler proof: the bat couldn't have reached the rear hex to scout it without passing adjacent to one of the fortress stacks or the unfound dwagon stack on the lake.

Combat is within the same hex, only. Further, so is spotting.

[ChowGuy]

Even in the very last panel the only (i know there are only 3 shown) dwagon Without arrows in its hide is the lead dwagon with a rider.

Hey, if I were a warlord riding a Dwagon, I'd try to keep out of the line of fire too. Especially if I was Manpower, because, well, you know what happened last time he got careless.

[tainsouvra]

Yes, and I was careful to point out specific instances.

I was careful to look at each individual panel of those instances, and disagree with your assessment.

Of course if you don't think having your arm ripped off while bring down a rock,

This did not occur in the same panel, but rather over 4-6 of that page.

or being stabbed while nomming

The bite attack had already occurred, thus the marbits being in the dwagon's mouth when the remaining marbits acted. This is very easily still within a turn-based combat model.

If the characters do not know what realtime action is, but only turn-based action...and the comic does not present actual attacks being resolved simultaneously...I do not see the clear evidence that you claim.

[Airshark]

Croaking the warlords doesn't necessarily end the seige. Capturing the warlords and ransoming them back for peace and schmuckers, on the other hand...

On second thought, it also may be possible to recruit a disgruntled captured warlord.

It's certainly possible to croak and uncroak a captured warlord. I doubt the siege will be over with Ansom's death/capture, but it could go a long way towards evening the odds if Ansom replaces Manpower as Parson's top uncroaked warlord. Particularly if the Macguffin that turns them to dust (the Arkenpliers) is in Stanley's possession.

Has anybody thought about what the pliers might do if Stanley can be attuned to them? The Hammer controls dwagons. Maybe the pliers give immediate control of all undead when they're attuned.

[JazzManJim]

I am now well and truly confused.

I have no earthly idea why Ansom charged everyone into the center hex. It doesn't make sense at all.

I have no clue why the news of veiling seems to boggle Parson to the extent it does. It could mean that he realizes that he has an even more powerful tactical tool at his disposal but he seems more frustrated or shocked than the news would warrant.

I don't even have a decent guess about what could be coming next.

Nice job, Rob and Jamie. :)

[tainsouvra]

I have no earthly idea why Ansom charged everyone into the center hex. It doesn't make sense at all.

He believes Stanley went through the trouble of putting a circle of dwagons around a hex in which he veiled his wounded troops...something that would seem like a shrewd move to Stanley, but actually be kind of stupid.

I have no clue why the news of veiling seems to boggle Parson to the extent it does.

He was up all night coming up with a plan and, with one sentence about veiling, found out there was probably a far easier way of doing it. It's akin to climbing a rock face only to find there was an escalator on the other side.