League Of Legends LXVII: "MY PICK'EMS!"

[Ashen Lilies]

The shield tech on her passive is actually very neat and interesting.

Camille basically knows behind-the-scenes what kind of damage her opponent has been doing throughout the game, and then picks an appropriate shield type which also takes her own resistances into account. Which means that against a champion that deals very close to equal hybrid damage like a Jax or a Shyvana that might depend on their items (did Shyvana build a BoRK or a Sunfire?), and you build an armor item and then an MR item, your shield might actually flip a couple of times per game against the same target depending on what her calculations decide what type of damage the other champion is threatening more of. Or maybe you start off with a magic damage shield against Nasus because he's been poking you with E, but it eventually flips to a physical damage shield after he's whacked you with his charged-up Q enough times.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The shield tech on her passive is actually very neat and interesting.

Camille basically knows behind-the-scenes what kind of damage her opponent has been doing throughout the game, and then picks an appropriate shield type which also takes her own resistances into account. Which means that against a champion that deals very close to equal hybrid damage like a Jax or a Shyvana that might depend on their items (did Shyvana build a BoRK or a Sunfire?), and you build an armor item and then an MR item, your shield might actually flip a couple of times per game against the same target depending on what her calculations decide what type of damage the other champion is threatening more of. Or maybe you start off with a magic damage shield against Nasus because he's been poking you with E, but it eventually flips to a physical damage shield after he's whacked you with his charged-up Q enough times.

Yep! It's a pretty interesting system, and one that I'm especially fond of because it shows that Riot isn't afraid to use behind-the-scenes logic to do things like this, which could be used to cool effects elsewhere. I really love the wider design direction the game is taking.

I do wonder if you can game that system though...say, harass with magic damage only, just to flip around and burst her down with your other three physical-damage abilities at the last minute.

[Ashen Lilies]

The shield apparently has a built-in start bias based on historical data. So if you're laning against a mage, and their first action against you is to harass you with an auto-attack, you'll still get the magic damage shield when you go in, unless they've been particularly conscientious about using ONLY auto-attacks, in which case the 'this character is doing physical damage' data will eventually overwhelm the starting bias and flip your shield.

The calculations also weighs recent damage output over earlier damage output. So if you're fighting a Nasus that has been wrecking stuff with Q for the past 5 minutes, the shield calculation is going to prioritize that data over the data that says he was poking you with E in lane for the first 10 minutes.

So maybe quite difficult to game, but I can still definitely see it screwing up against really weird edge cases like Nasus or Shyvana who have high magic base damage (particularly in AoE) but also high scaling physical damage against single targets meaning the algorithm screws up and gives you the wrong kind of shield you needed to win the duel. Thankfully such cases are limited to a very small set of champions (less than I can count on one hand) and are conveniently also champions you're not necessarily wanting to 1v1 anyway if there's a more convenient target available for you to hunt out, ie if you need to ask yourself "why did I lose this duel against Jax" then "my shield didn't block the right kind of damage" might be one answer to that question, but it's quite unlikely to be the only answer to that question.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Meanwhile Jarvan is crying himself to sleep inside Cataclysm.

[Ashen Lilies]

Cataclysm still offers massive AoE burst damage and creates terrain that can keep people out and block off tight corridors, which Hextech Ultimatum specifically doesn't do after the initial knockback, allowing allies to still return and provide aid to their imprisoned comrade. Hextech Ultimatum has unique trapping/anti-disengage utility that's stronger than Cataclysm's, but Cataclysm has its own utility and strengths (it's very hard to leave it if you're dead) that shouldn't be discounted.

[Renegade Paladin]

The flip side of that is that at the level most of us play at, if the support or the jungler wander into river and stumble into a fight, there's no guarantee at all that their own mid, bot, or jungler will actually roam up and join it, so you can throw really hard by going too far out and getting caught.

In most games as jungler I find it sufficient to keep a control ward in the river bush just down from mid. Often it'll stay there twenty minutes or more, though that's getting less common as I climb the ladder.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hm. After looking at her notes currently on Surrenderat20 (not complete yet), I'm a little saddened that the passive is on such a long cooldown. I get the goal of it there, but I think that a more common but smaller shield might have lead to more interesting target prioritization options in the mid-to-late game teamfights. Depending on how short this CD ends up it might end up fitting my vision anyway...we'll see.

Also, cooldowns at rank 1 are as follows:

Passive - 20 seconds (looks reducable with level and/or cooldown?)
Q - 9 seconds
W - 15 seconds
E - 16 seconds

[thracian]

In most games as jungler I find it sufficient to keep a control ward in the river bush just down from mid. Often it'll stay there twenty minutes or more, though that's getting less common as I climb the ladder.

As a comparison, that's a bush I've started green warding and sweeping, rather than pink warding. I find any time the enemy bottom lane has a push advantage, that ward pretty quickly gets taken out.

[Duck999]

The thing I find most strange about Camille is that they are releasing another fighter who is apparently good at dueling only two champs after Kled. That's part of the reason I thought she was much more likely to be an assassin. As she is, she looks fun. However, despite having her own unique abilities, it looks like he play style will be very similar to that of a Fiora.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Weird thing I just realized...

...anyone (Reina? ) have any idea why all of League's "variable hit zone" spells have strict delineations of the "optimal" range?

By that I mean things like Camille's leg sweep, Darius's axe, Sejuani's ultimate, etc.

I'm having trouble thinking of a spell that gives you the option of use when you cast it based on your targeting, rather than simply having one "worse" option and one "better" option.

Imagine a skillshot, for example, that deals damage and slows a target on a melee assassin character with a gapcloser. The ability deals more damage at long range, but slows more at close range. Do you open with it, dash in, and try to burst the target? Do you gapclose in and hit them to secure a longer slow time?

Imagine Camille's W where the closer portion deals more damage, and the longer one slows and heals. Do you stick close for the damage, or pull back for the CC?

The only reasons I'm coming up with for not having this sort of design is that it leads to increased complexity and decision-making. I know an argument could be made about players being always left wondering if they made the best choice, but I feel that mechanic already exists in things like Rengar's empowered abilities, itemization in general, and other things, so I'm not sure how much weight that really holds. And, yes, it makes counterplay less obvious...but I think it may also make counterplay more interesting (should I move into the slow area, or can I afford to eat the extra damage and escape?).

I do think it would open up some interesting design space though, particularly on any character with some flex utility.

Thoughts?

[Lethologica]

Man, it's been so long since the Game Design Anti-Patterns thread that I had to check to confirm it was Zilean's and not Morello's. This idea definitely fit one of the patterns. Probably Unclear Optimization.

That doesn't mean it's a bad idea, of course, because that thread's ideas were highly questionable. But some portion of that philosophy likely persists, which is why skills like that don't exist.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Man, it's been so long since the Game Design Anti-Patterns thread that I had to check to confirm it was Zilean's and not Morello's. This idea definitely fit one of the patterns. Probably Unclear Optimization.

Will have to read that again -- it's been YEARS.

That doesn't mean it's a bad idea, of course, because that thread's ideas were highly questionable. But some portion of that philosophy likely persists, which is why skills like that don't exist.

I figured...I'm just not sure if the downsides override the upsides.

[Forum Explorer]

Weird thing I just realized...

...anyone (Reina? ) have any idea why all of League's "variable hit zone" spells have strict delineations of the "optimal" range?

By that I mean things like Camille's leg sweep, Darius's axe, Sejuani's ultimate, etc.

I'm having trouble thinking of a spell that gives you the option of use when you cast it based on your targeting, rather than simply having one "worse" option and one "better" option.

Imagine a skillshot, for example, that deals damage and slows a target on a melee assassin character with a gapcloser. The ability deals more damage at long range, but slows more at close range. Do you open with it, dash in, and try to burst the target? Do you gapclose in and hit them to secure a longer slow time?

Imagine Camille's W where the closer portion deals more damage, and the longer one slows and heals. Do you stick close for the damage, or pull back for the CC?

The only reasons I'm coming up with for not having this sort of design is that it leads to increased complexity and decision-making. I know an argument could be made about players being always left wondering if they made the best choice, but I feel that mechanic already exists in things like Rengar's empowered abilities, itemization in general, and other things, so I'm not sure how much weight that really holds. And, yes, it makes counterplay less obvious...but I think it may also make counterplay more interesting (should I move into the slow area, or can I afford to eat the extra damage and escape?).

I do think it would open up some interesting design space though, particularly on any character with some flex utility.

Thoughts?

Doesn't Talon's new ability (Q I think) work kinda like that? Like it does extra damage when one condition is met, but it stuns if a different condition is met.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Doesn't Talon's new ability (Q I think) work kinda like that? Like it does extra damage when one condition is met, but it stuns if a different condition is met.

Well, it's a damage or blink tool, which means it's less "which do I need now" and more "can I close distance otherwise," but yes. That's something I'd consider a soft example of this.

[Ashen Lilies]

Talon's Q doesn't really count as what Djinn is describing, as it's a gapcloser at long range and does double damage at short range - if you're in range to get double damage you didn't need the gapcloser anyway.

I think the counterplay issue is the biggest problem with an ability like that. Both Camille and Darius have an obvious, defined zone that you do not want to be in, and a closer zone that's still bad but not as bad as the alternative (and then the final zone which is "I dodge entirely"). This is especially important as a release valve for matchups with less mobility - while someone like Fiora or Ekko can always reliably escape the sweep entirely, someone like a Nasus can't do that, but can still take the less-bad option of moving into the Darius or Camille to take less upfront damage and deny bleed stacks + healing, though of course still suffering the penalty of being in melee range of Darius + Camille.

If you have an ability that doesn't have a clear delineation between "optimal use" and "sub-optimal use" then it really sucks to be on the receiving end of that. The increased complexity typically isn't a problem for the person using it - you usually know if you really want more burst, or if you have a jungler coming in to support you then you know you want the stun. The person on the receiving end typically won't have that insight into your thought process, so they're just faced with two possible outcomes that are both equally terrible, and the only 'right' answer for them is to avoid the ability entirely. If that's the case, then almost certainly the ability will either have to be much more narrow and easy to dodge, or else less impactful in both zones overall compared to how much can be crammed into an ability with a 'sweet spot'.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If you have an ability that doesn't have a clear delineation between "optimal use" and "sub-optimal use" then it really sucks to be on the receiving end of that. The increased complexity typically isn't a problem for the person using it - you usually know if you really want more burst, or if you have a jungler coming in to support you then you know you want the stun. The person on the receiving end typically won't have that insight into your thought process, so they're just faced with two possible outcomes that are both equally terrible, and the only 'right' answer for them is to avoid the ability entirely. If that's the case, then almost certainly the ability will either have to be much more narrow and easy to dodge, or else less impactful in both zones overall compared to how much can be crammed into an ability with a 'sweet spot'.

Largely true (although I'm not sure the negatives are that pronounced...but I can't tell, having never tested something like this in context), which is why my example of a possible ability put the onus of use on the user, with the same reaction from the enemy -- a longish cooldown skillshot with increasing damage but diminishing CC at range, for example. It's less a "which will I stand in" for the enemy, and more a conscious choice of "I'll get one cast of this in the upcoming fight...how am I going to use this?"

Or, for example, an ability that has a different effect if it HITS an enemy vs. if you cast it on the ground. Maybe an AoE skillshot that slows things it hits, and lays a trap if it misses -- do you hit your enemy, or deny an escape path or an entrance path for someone else?

[Reinboom]

Man, it's been so long since the Game Design Anti-Patterns thread that I had to check to confirm it was Zilean's and not Morello's. This idea definitely fit one of the patterns. Probably Unclear Optimization.

Will have to read that again -- it's been YEARS.

That doesn't mean it's a bad idea, of course, because that thread's ideas were highly questionable. But some portion of that philosophy likely persists, which is why skills like that don't exist.

I figured...I'm just not sure if the downsides override the upsides.

It fits "Conflicted Purpose".


That said, Zileas's anti-patterns aren't "Don't do these" (except maybe don't **** the player), so much as "we don't get great return on mechanics like this for their costs." They don't even come up in discussion much internally, directly at least.

More so, this changes over time kind of incidentally. For example, since League has a lot more champions now each champion has an increasingly narrow player base (percentage wise, not total), and thus each champion gets to appeal slightly more narrowly. Things like the Fun vs Antifun equation changes drastically under this lens. Characters like Bard gets to exist since for players who love Bard, those players REALLY love Bard and players who don't just won't play Bard, whereas before we would've needed to appeal more broadly and with fewer frustrating mechanics for teammates just to get the same gains on Fun vs AntiFun for Bard's abilities.

So yes, we could probably start doing more abilities that dip in to some of the anti patterns - like conflicted purpose - more. It would probably contribute to deeper mastery points for that character which is a wonderful thing to have now with more and more narrow characters.

Why haven't we? Either: Hasn't come up. Or: Hadn't received enough gains for the cost.

[sonofzeal]

Is the topic under discussion distinct from how Ryze is supposed to be working, with a different order of skills achieving different results for the same cost? Or is that another "soft example"?

Because if I understand properly, what's being proposed is basically the same but with possible counterplay.

[Vogie]

Weird thing I just realized...

...anyone (Reina? ) have any idea why all of League's "variable hit zone" spells have strict delineations of the "optimal" range?

By that I mean things like Camille's leg sweep, Darius's axe, Sejuani's ultimate, etc.

I'm having trouble thinking of a spell that gives you the option of use when you cast it based on your targeting, rather than simply having one "worse" option and one "better" option.

Imagine a skillshot, for example, that deals damage and slows a target on a melee assassin character with a gapcloser. The ability deals more damage at long range, but slows more at close range. Do you open with it, dash in, and try to burst the target? Do you gapclose in and hit them to secure a longer slow time?

Imagine Camille's W where the closer portion deals more damage, and the longer one slows and heals. Do you stick close for the damage, or pull back for the CC?

The only reasons I'm coming up with for not having this sort of design is that it leads to increased complexity and decision-making. I know an argument could be made about players being always left wondering if they made the best choice, but I feel that mechanic already exists in things like Rengar's empowered abilities, itemization in general, and other things, so I'm not sure how much weight that really holds. And, yes, it makes counterplay less obvious...but I think it may also make counterplay more interesting (should I move into the slow area, or can I afford to eat the extra damage and escape?).

I do think it would open up some interesting design space though, particularly on any character with some flex utility.

Thoughts?

I think the reason they avoid it to keep design focused on what the player actually wants at any point. I mean, this is how Nidalee's spear works - If you're far away, it does more damage; if you're close, it is mostly there to Mark the target for you to shift into cougar form for one of the empowered abilities (more damage or larger pounce range).

There was also the opposite, until they updated Kha'Zix - his W skillshot has middling-to-low damage and a small slow, while his main slow is on his passive. Thus, at long range, the main utility of W was the slow, while it would heal Kha at short range, so one could either choose between limiting the target's choices was you begin a gank, or increase survivability during the gank. They moved the slow to the evolved W on live during the assassin update, which makes more of a meaningful choice between having a second slow ability (third If you include the ult) vs the evolved Q, E, or R.

I think the reason they keep it rare is because they're focused on giving the player of champion a more clear choice - Malz's E or Annie's Q can either be used as ways to manage the lane in a mana-efficient manner, or are be used as non-avoidable damage for harass. By watching what they do, the opponent can play around the player's choice. An Ashe can focus building Attack speed to keep the slow around, or build critical strike to empower the slows. Corrupting potions can be used to empower harass, or just sustain in lane.

Things like the Darius Q, Camille's W, and the Zed WE combo are giving the opposing players a way to avoid some damage (or the slow, in Zed's & Camille's cases) by getting closer to the champion (and going ham). It falls into that "Windows of power" thing they've been stressing.

Is the topic under discussion distinct from how Ryze is supposed to be working, with a different order of skills achieving different results for the same cost? Or is that another "soft example"?

Because if I understand properly, what's being proposed is basically the same but with possible counterplay.

That's exactly right. You have a way to maximize Root length, maximize single-target damage, maximize AoE damage, or get the shield/Movement speed buff, but only one. And the opponent can see that, thus play around it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

That's exactly right. You have a way to maximize Root length, maximize single-target damage, maximize AoE damage, or get the shield/Movement speed buff, but only one. And the opponent can see that, thus play around it.

Basically, yes.

[Artanis]

Would Ezreal's E count as a soft example as well? Its most obvious use is as an escape to go back to a safe spot to lob Q's, but the energy bolt means that if you go in with it, that's a bit more damage added to a burst (especially with an AP build).


...or I could be completely misinterpreting the concept being discussed

[Qwertystop]

Would Ezreal's E count as a soft example as well? Its most obvious use is as an escape to go back to a safe spot to lob Q's, but the energy bolt means that if you go in with it, that's a bit more damage added to a burst (especially with an AP build).


...or I could be completely misinterpreting the concept being discussed

Also, it combos with his W, for even more use as a fight-starter.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Would Ezreal's E count as a soft example as well? Its most obvious use is as an escape to go back to a safe spot to lob Q's, but the energy bolt means that if you go in with it, that's a bit more damage added to a burst (especially with an AP build).


...or I could be completely misinterpreting the concept being discussed

Not precisely. That's a move that has escape utility or offense utility, definitely, but a lot of moves have that -- almost any mobility move.

The combo with the W is an example, but not a GREAT example, as the optimal case is always buff yourself AND damage a target if you can use it.

Less so an ability like Ryze's kit, where there isn't an OPTIMAL use -- just an optimal use FOR THAT SITUATION.

Which is what I'm interested in currently -- abilities that have multiple utility they can get out of a single situation depending on how you utilize them.

[shadow_archmagi]

Tahm's W, then, which can save an ally or damage an enemy?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It fits "Conflicted Purpose".


That said, Zileas's anti-patterns aren't "Don't do these" (except maybe don't **** the player), so much as "we don't get great return on mechanics like this for their costs." They don't even come up in discussion much internally, directly at least.

More so, this changes over time kind of incidentally. For example, since League has a lot more champions now each champion has an increasingly narrow player base (percentage wise, not total), and thus each champion gets to appeal slightly more narrowly. Things like the Fun vs Antifun equation changes drastically under this lens. Characters like Bard gets to exist since for players who love Bard, those players REALLY love Bard and players who don't just won't play Bard, whereas before we would've needed to appeal more broadly and with fewer frustrating mechanics for teammates just to get the same gains on Fun vs AntiFun for Bard's abilities.

So yes, we could probably start doing more abilities that dip in to some of the anti patterns - like conflicted purpose - more. It would probably contribute to deeper mastery points for that character which is a wonderful thing to have now with more and more narrow characters.

Why haven't we? Either: Hasn't come up. Or: Hadn't received enough gains for the cost.

Somehow I missed this response. Thanks! Falls roughly in line with what I anticipated, but I like to confirm when I can.

Tahm's W, then, which can save an ally or damage an enemy?

That's a good example of this, absolutely. Completely forgot about that.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Just played with the group, it was fun, I should join in on the call next time.

Regardless, dDoSsnare, NA server, if I could get added to the list (changed names recently, but my old one isn't on there either).

[efdf]

just entered my gold promos o boy

Spoiler: intense gameplay

Show

That's exactly right. You have a way to maximize Root length, maximize single-target damage, maximize AoE damage, or get the shield/Movement speed buff, but only one. And the opponent can see that, thus play around it.

I feel like it makes Ryze more interesting to play, but his opponent doesn't really get much out of it. It does make it a lot harder to figure out what is going on though. I just played a game against Ryze for the first time and it took me awhile to figure out how his abilities interacted.

[Lethologica]

just entered my gold promos o boy

dafuq are you doin in gold promos boy
...
o nvm carry on

[neriractor]

hello, I just started playing lol recently, I´m digging the game and I figured I may as well post in the playground´s lol thread.

Username is neriractor, latinamerica north server.

[shadow_archmagi]

How does the playground feel about Ivern Support?