League Of Legends LXVII: "MY PICK'EMS!"

[Ashen Lilies]

I'm super excited to play the new LeBlanc and Katarina.

Meanwhile, the Akali passive change and Fizz QWR changes are actually pretty significant.

Meanwhile meanwhile, Zed on an quest to find the highest AD target on the map and murder their face off in the eternal search for SLIGHTLY HIGHER AD (rip Jhin).

(this is when the ADC trolls the enemy Zed by going a full AS/on-hit build, just to spite him)

[Dienekes]

ADC ZHONYAS!
That might be exaggerating a little. However, there is an item coming out in 2017 that will stop those pesky Zed ults and Karthus ults. Kind of.

I like the assassin changes they are making, especially Talon's e. I'm going to have a lot of fun with that one.

I have a feeling Talon's E is gonna be that big unbalanced thing that happens with each of these class updates. The shear utility will be ridiculous.

I'm probably wrong though, I don't think I'm a good enough player to actually analyze this stuff. Except for the Malzahar update. Literally everyone called that one.

[Ionbound]

ADC ZHONYAS!
That might be exaggerating a little. However, there is an item coming out in 2017 that will stop those pesky Zed ults and Karthus ults. Kind of.

I like the assassin changes they are making, especially Talon's e. I'm going to have a lot of fun with that one.

Where are you getting that from? Sorcerer's Bane? Because let me promise you, that won't be built on an ADC. That'll be built on a Talon that just walked over the perfectly positioned Flame Chompers I just laid down to tear me a couple different new behinds.

On that note, I really hope that with the Assassin reworks, they'll revert Jinx's Q nerf. When she got hit, she was dominant because Assassins were entirely out-of-favor (and it was a justified nerf, she was insane). But now that champs like Talon and Rengar who can handle my favorite ball of insane glee and explosions are coming back, I feel like she's gonna need to be stronger to remain viable.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

On that note, I really hope that with the Assassin reworks, they'll revert Jinx's Q nerf. When she got hit, she was dominant because Assassins were entirely out-of-favor (and it was a justified nerf, she was insane). But now that champs like Talon and Rengar who can handle my favorite ball of insane glee and explosions are coming back, I feel like she's gonna need to be stronger to remain viable.

I don't think that's a good idea, honestly. Jinx was not only strong in general, but ALSO was dominant in lanes against other Marksmen. She (and a few other Marksmen) might need some tweaks or itemization love, but I actually think she'll be fine: most of the new Assassins seem to be built around a longer kill window, which gives Jinx and her ilk more time to fight back.

Plus, if you WERE going to tweak her, I'm not sure I'd stick more/faster stacks on her Q as my way to do it. I'd be more interested to see her other abilities buffed up a bit, since there are a bunch of "fast attacking" Marksmen and it's not the most interesting thing about them.

[Duck999]

Where are you getting that from? Sorcerer's Bane? Because let me promise you, that won't be built on an ADC. That'll be built on a Talon that just walked over the perfectly positioned Flame Chompers I just laid down to tear me a couple different new behinds.

On that note, I really hope that with the Assassin reworks, they'll revert Jinx's Q nerf. When she got hit, she was dominant because Assassins were entirely out-of-favor (and it was a justified nerf, she was insane). But now that champs like Talon and Rengar who can handle my favorite ball of insane glee and explosions are coming back, I feel like she's gonna need to be stronger to remain viable.

That's my one big problem with that. It is made for assassins. This would have been great for the ADC update. Assassins now just dodge the first cc upon engaging. However, depending on the enemy team comp, it will likely be built on some ADCs.

[Ionbound]

That would be great, Djinn, if her other abilities actually did anything. Her W is essentially just dontfacecheck.exe, and her E is extremely limited disengage that is really only useful in the laning phase. She doesn't really have any healthy levers to pull to power her up other than her Q. And even that, as you said, is iffy at best.

[Nadevoc]

That would be great, Djinn, if her other abilities actually did anything. Her W is essentially just dontfacecheck.exe, and her E is extremely limited disengage that is really only useful in the laning phase. She doesn't really have any healthy levers to pull to power her up other than her Q. And even that, as you said, is iffy at best.

Um, what?

Zap! is poke with a slow attached (super good for sniping a kill, cutting off a route, or just slowing an enemy - that's a pretty hefty slow on it).

Chompers are mostly disengage, yeah, but they're decent at it, and can double as engage in lane.

Both are 100% useful abilities.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

That would be great, Djinn, if her other abilities actually did anything. Her W is essentially just dontfacecheck.exe, and her E is extremely limited disengage that is really only useful in the laning phase. She doesn't really have any healthy levers to pull to power her up other than her Q. And even that, as you said, is iffy at best.

...I'd argue her abilities are incredibly potent, actually, and that she has quite a few healthy levers to pull.

[Yael]

Finished playing new Kha'Zix.

Spoiler: Insights

Show

• Passive works pretty much the same.
• Evolved Q does the same, still a good option to Evolve first.
• Evolved W is a better tool for ganking solo lanes, and for counterjungle.
• Evolved E has no changes.
• His Evolved R is good for both midlane roam and skirmishes at the jungle. Good for soloQ.

[Ivellius]

On that note, I really hope that with the Assassin reworks, they'll revert Jinx's Q nerf. When she got hit, she was dominant because Assassins were entirely out-of-favor (and it was a justified nerf, she was insane). But now that champs like Talon and Rengar who can handle my favorite ball of insane glee and explosions are coming back, I feel like she's gonna need to be stronger to remain viable.

While Talon arguably doesn't have the map mobility at the moment to be as effective, Rengar can do that right now and probably more easily than he will be able to. All the changes should put him more in play, however.

Also, new D&Dish skins? Those are good.

[Vogie]

I really like the changes that they're making

Here's an interesting idea - with abilities like Shunpo/Safeguard, the new Talon E, and the reworked Cassiopeia (who cannot buy any boots)... Do you think we will see Riot release a champion that CANNOT choose flash as a summoner spell?

[thracian]

FOGGY Fixed most instances of enemy ability VFX showing up through fog of war when Spectator Mode is toggled to one team’s view. Maybe all of them. League has a lot of abilities.

Does this also fix abilities being visible through fog of war in game? There are still a few out there that are visible.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Here's an interesting idea - with abilities like Shunpo/Safeguard, the new Talon E, and the reworked Cassiopeia (who cannot buy any boots)... Do you think we will see Riot release a champion that CANNOT choose flash as a summoner spell?

Frankly? No. I don't think champions directly interacting with Summoner Spells is a particularly interesting design space, so I'm not sure what benefit you'd get out of it -- at the cost of breaking an established distinction, limiting player choice, and just not being super apparent in the first place.

I think I'd revise or remove Flash as a spell before I expressly banned someone from taking it, basically.

[Siosilvar]

That would be great, Djinn, if her other abilities actually did anything. Her W is essentially just dontfacecheck.exe, and her E is extremely limited disengage that is really only useful in the laning phase. She doesn't really have any healthy levers to pull to power her up other than her Q. And even that, as you said, is iffy at best.

...how long has it been since you played with me? We should fix that if you think her other abilities are bad. I think my ridiculous objective steals alone are probably still a part of Mumble's collective memory, though I'm not sure if I've done any E tricks while people were watching.

E is actually just really bad at disengage and is far more useful as a zoning tool or follow-up CC.

[Ashen Lilies]

or me, frankly.

the Jinx "walk-into-toplane-and-throw-E-behind-them" ganks are the deadliest ganks.

[Ionbound]

The answer to both of you is a really long time. I did kinda quit League for a while and I don't think I've played with either of you since I came back.

[Siosilvar]

or me, frankly.

the Jinx "walk-into-toplane-and-throw-E-behind-them" ganks are the deadliest ganks.

I'm more a fan of walking back and forth across the traps, forcing Udyr to run hopelessly in circles trying to avoid them. I might be a bad pers--- uhh, it's totally in character, you see! >.>

I don't know why people allow themselves to be zoned for 5 seconds by a 1.5 second snare, but whatever floats their boats I guess.

[Duck999]

I like that thing where you're fighting someone near a wall, so you throw the flame chompers over the wall. Silver and Bronze, 95% of people won't notice and flash right into them. Problems with this: Knowing if their flash is up, them being smart enough to use flash, them being smart enough not to use flash.

[Ashen Lilies]

Okay but as a Miss Fortune main, I just realized how much I want Edge of Night.

[shadow_archmagi]

Tahm Kench feels kinda unfair. I main him, but often when I'm playing against champs he does well against, I'm not wholly clear what I'd be doing in their place. I was up against a Shyvana today, and I could poke harder than her, and Acquired Taste gives me the upper hand in prolonged slapfights. She couldn't play distance, couldn't get close.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Tahm Kench feels kinda unfair. I main him, but often when I'm playing against champs he does well against, I'm not wholly clear what I'd be doing in their place. I was up against a Shyvana today, and I could poke harder than her, and Acquired Taste gives me the upper hand in prolonged slapfights. She couldn't play distance, couldn't get close.

I feel like she could have gone for an early Blade of the Ruined King (a fine item on what I assume was a top-lane brawling Shyvana). Also, she should just be able to win in 5-second or shorter fights. Acquired Taste is all well and good, but her E gives her 2.5% of YOUR maximum health in damage against you, which should be able to hurt pretty hard. If she had any lifesteal she'd probably have been able to play fine against you.

[Lethologica]

Tahm Kench feels kinda unfair. I main him, but often when I'm playing against champs he does well against, I'm not wholly clear what I'd be doing in their place. I was up against a Shyvana today, and I could poke harder than her, and Acquired Taste gives me the upper hand in prolonged slapfights. She couldn't play distance, couldn't get close.

Sit in minions, push, WE-auto-Q if you wade in to trade. IDK how much you can poke her down, but it doesn't seem like a bad lane.

[Anarion]

...I'd argue her abilities are incredibly potent, actually, and that she has quite a few healthy levers to pull.

I'm more a fan of walking back and forth across the traps, forcing Udyr to run hopelessly in circles trying to avoid them. I might be a bad pers--- uhh, it's totally in character, you see! >.>

I don't know why people allow themselves to be zoned for 5 seconds by a 1.5 second snare, but whatever floats their boats I guess.

I am with these two. Jinx E is one of her strongest abilities, placing it well during a teamfight can give you the opportunity to get out a number of safe attacks. Jinx W is also really strong, especially if you choose a build that has a bit more AD, it can chunk a quarter of a squishy target's health from long-range with no risk, and it can be used as a poor man's engage tool by hitting a target that pushes up too far and allowing your front line to jump them.

The answer to Sio's question, of course, is that they don't want to get pulled by the Blitzcrank that is always standing in the shadows directly behind you just waiting for the moment they stop moving. Yes, even if he's visible elsewhere on the map, he's still there.

edit: Jinx W is like Nidalee spear, btw. You can't expect to hit it by firing directly at someone who's paying attention to you, it's easily dodged if the target isn't CCed. Instead, you use it to zone (if you back up, you're damaged and slowed, if you don't, my Alistar is going to be in range of you, time to choose), or you hit it by reading people's movements and forcing them into bad spots like up against a wall next to a tower, or when they have to stop to avoid missing CS.

Okay but as a Miss Fortune main, I just realized how much I want Edge of Night.

Is there any reason she wouldn't buy it? I'm not all that clear on how new lethality works, but MF specifically seems like she ought to still want it even after the changes.

Tahm Kench feels kinda unfair. I main him, but often when I'm playing against champs he does well against, I'm not wholly clear what I'd be doing in their place. I was up against a Shyvana today, and I could poke harder than her, and Acquired Taste gives me the upper hand in prolonged slapfights. She couldn't play distance, couldn't get close.

One can argue about the effectiveness between melee champions dueling each other, but I think it misses the point. Shyvana runs fast, Kench does not. Her role isn't to be hitting you, unless it's as part of a 5-man dogpile that murders you instantly. If she's jungling, she ought to be running around to places where you're not and killing your jungler or stealing his stuff. If she's laning, she should be splitting and if you're not with your team because you're dealing with Shyv, her team gets the opportunity to pick off your squishies without you saving them. If it's a teamfight, she has the option to dive your backline in a way that you can't really match, so you have to go peel her instead while the enemy backline is safe.

Yes, if you're specifically laning toplane Kench against Shyv, then you may get strong enough to zone her from the wave, but again, if you're doing that instead of leaving to go help your own team, you'd better hope your teammates can win the 4v4 without their tank.

[lord_khaine]

I cant help but think they are introducing a little to many defences against CC and spells. I mean there are already QSS. How many other counters are needed?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I cant help but think they are introducing a little to many defences against CC and spells. I mean there are already QSS. How many other counters are needed?

Given that CC is incredibly strong, and itemizing into a defense it means sacrificing an item that may have better damage potential or more broadly useful survivability options? I don't see an issue with it personally. I'd be okay if we had a CC defense option in most item categories, frankly, provided it games at an appropriate cost in terms of power elsewhere.

[lord_khaine]

Given that CC is incredibly strong, and itemizing into a defense it means sacrificing an item that may have better damage potential or more broadly useful survivability options? I don't see an issue with it personally. I'd be okay if we had a CC defense option in most item categories, frankly, provided it games at an appropriate cost in terms of power elsewhere.

But are there not plenty of options for those things already? I mean, is the whole definition of an tradeoff not if you actually need to build a defensive item instead of more damage?
There are both QSS and Banshee's Veil that provides that effect, why do we need an item that gives something like that and a offensive stat as well?

[Anarion]

But are there not plenty of options for those things already? I mean, is the whole definition of an tradeoff not if you actually need to build a defensive item instead of more damage?
There are both QSS and Banshee's Veil that provides that effect, why do we need an item that gives something like that and a offensive stat as well?

QSS is an item with that defense that only builds into something useful for marksmen, it's pretty terrible for assassins much less classes that don't use damage. And banshees is fine, but is pure defense. The point of the new item isn't to give out multiple spellshields (I'd be extremely surprised if they even stacked), but to give a few more options for that spellshield so that it's available as a defense option for different types of characters without unfairly burdening some classes.

Also, to specifically ruin Karthus ult forever. Mostly that, actually.

[Ashen Lilies]

Is there any reason she wouldn't buy it? I'm not all that clear on how new lethality works, but MF specifically seems like she ought to still want it even after the changes.

No, no there isn't. I think you may have misread me a little - I'm positively stating how much I look forward to being able to build it. I want it.

The main difference between Lethality and Flat Pen is that Lethality doesn't provide as much as an early power spike as Flat Pen does, but scales better because you can get more of it*. The main losers in this transaction are marksmen like Twitch and Draven, who rushed Ghostblade in order to get a big spike and start snowballing. Not only is Ghostblade less of a spike, the fact that it doesn't give attack speed on the active anymore is especially painful for Twitch, since it means that his 1-item Ambush threat has been reduced significantly.

Jhin and Lucian are probably going to be a little more flexible in going towards crit builds rather than Lethality focused builds. Crit will give them more of a basic-attack and kiting-based focus, Lethality will give them more of a spell damage focus. I could probably see Lucian lean more heavily towards Essence Reaver because of the lack of the early spike from Ghostblade, while Jhin would be a little bit more down to preference and enemy team comp (is he getting in and trying to hit people, or is he largely standing back and using W and R to poke and catch people while his team does most of the lifting?).

Quinn, Varus, and Miss Fortune are probably the big winners in terms of building full Lethality. Quinn is basically just an assassin anyway, so Lethality will smooth out her power curve (less of a spike early, less snowball, better scaling late instead of falling off) the same way it's intended to do for champions like Zed and Talon. Miss Fortune and Varus will get the same effect. A problem I've always felt with Varus is that the need to get an early Tear somewhat puts him on the back foot when it comes to rushing his necessary pen items - the same reason Jayce has stopped building Tear almost entirely. Lethality is much less of a race to get items as fast as possible and means Varus will fall behind less, and his poke will be much better later into the game. I also think the switch of Maw from Pen to CDR might even be helpful for Varus, since it means you can take MR runes instead of CDR and still hit the cap with blue buff.

The reason I highlight Edge of Night in particular for Miss Fortune is because not only are the stats good for her, but it also gives her a spell shield. Miss Fortune. With a spell shield. I'll let you make the necessary connections here.



*the specific math for how Lethality works is that you get 40% of the listed value against targets who are level 1, which scales up per enemy level to 100% of the listed value at level 18. Number values for Lethality are generally larger than the number values for Flat Pen were.

[Olinser]

No, no there isn't. I think you may have misread me a little - I'm positively stating how much I look forward to being able to build it. I want it.

The main difference between Lethality and Flat Pen is that Lethality doesn't provide as much as an early power spike as Flat Pen does, but scales better because you can get more of it*. The main losers in this transaction are marksmen like Twitch and Draven, who rushed Ghostblade in order to get a big spike and start snowballing. Not only is Ghostblade less of a spike, the fact that it doesn't give attack speed on the active anymore is especially painful for Twitch, since it means that his 1-item Ambush threat has been reduced significantly.

Jhin and Lucian are probably going to be a little more flexible in going towards crit builds rather than Lethality focused builds. Crit will give them more of a basic-attack and kiting-based focus, Lethality will give them more of a spell damage focus. I could probably see Lucian lean more heavily towards Essence Reaver because of the lack of the early spike from Ghostblade, while Jhin would be a little bit more down to preference and enemy team comp (is he getting in and trying to hit people, or is he largely standing back and using W and R to poke and catch people while his team does most of the lifting?).

Quinn, Varus, and Miss Fortune are probably the big winners in terms of building full Lethality. Quinn is basically just an assassin anyway, so Lethality will smooth out her power curve (less of a spike early, less snowball, better scaling late instead of falling off) the same way it's intended to do for champions like Zed and Talon. Miss Fortune and Varus will get the same effect. A problem I've always felt with Varus is that the need to get an early Tear somewhat puts him on the back foot when it comes to rushing his necessary pen items - the same reason Jayce has stopped building Tear almost entirely. Lethality is much less of a race to get items as fast as possible and means Varus will fall behind less, and his poke will be much better later into the game. I also think the switch of Maw from Pen to CDR might even be helpful for Varus, since it means you can take MR runes instead of CDR and still hit the cap with blue buff.

The reason I highlight Edge of Night in particular for Miss Fortune is because not only are the stats good for her, but it also gives her a spell shield. Miss Fortune. With a spell shield. I'll let you make the necessary connections here.



*the specific math for how Lethality works is that you get 40% of the listed value against targets who are level 1, which scales up per enemy level to 100% of the listed value at level 18. Number values for Lethality are generally larger than the number values for Flat Pen were.

I dunno about Varus. This will definitely benefit him in late game, but its going to make his early game even rougher. Varus was mostly rushing Tear -> Dirk - > manamune/Youmuu (debatable which he finished first), so that early pen nerf is going to hurt him a lot, especially since the AP mid laner power spike is still going to be the same. Late game 6 item Varus arrows are going to absolutely SHRED squishies though, but he's going to have an even rougher time against AP laners now.

[Ashen Lilies]

The difference now is that in hard matchups he can rush tear -> hexdrinker and farm it out for his manamune and ghostblade, without sacrificing the 'window' during which early pen buys are strongest. It definitely swings his power more towards the mid-late game, and the hexdrinker rush will slow him down and cause his damage to suffer, but I don't think he'll necessarily be more vulnerable to bad matchups.