League Of Legends LXVII: "MY PICK'EMS!"

[Olinser]

Spoiler: SKT vs. ROX

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Okay. I didn't wathc the games, but I'm confused. How the hell did MF support happen, and how was it good enough to draw a ban and win two games? And who thought of that? I need inside knowledge!

Spoiler: SKT vs ROX

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Well like I said, I think the value is not that its that great of a pick on its own. MF + Ashe is definitely a good combo but it requires very high coordination.

It was much more that it just completely changed the dynamic of bot lane and the game. SKT were plainly off their game with the MF in the game.

When they went back to 'normal' league in games 4 and 5, SKT was back in their comfort zone and just outplayed ROX.

[Ashen Lilies]

Spoiler: new support meta

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ROX Gorilla is literally my hero.

(soloqueue better prepare itself for my incoming dominance)

[Nadevoc]

Spoiler: ROX vs SKT game 1

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Really low kill game, SKT just had better map rotations and pressure. Then at the end ROX just hesitated WAY too long on the dragon, then committed to a fight after it went over to SKT.

3 infernal dragons and ROX still couldn't win late, this doesn't bode well for them in this series.

Spoiler: Response into my thoughts throughout SKT v Tigers

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I feel like saying '3 infernal and Tigers couldn't win late' is being a bit disingenuous. They didn't really get to true late game, so the massive SKT gold lead really cancelled out the dragon difference. The early baron where SKT wiped all the non-base turrets off the map was pretty huge, too. It IS a bit disappointing that the Tigers didn't manage to do much with the baron they snuck, but I feel like this game just came down to SKT being really smart at map play. Which isn't a huge surprise, because it's SKT.

--GAME 2--
This is my favorite game this Worlds so far. Support MF, diving super deep (and then making ridiculous teamwork plays to run back through the tower), lots of violence all around. Faker was a really strong stabilizing force in the earlier parts of the game, but that end by the Tigers was beautiful. This really felt like a game of the Tigers being Tigers - just having fun, playing aggressive, and making things happen. Always fun to watch.

--GAME 3--
This game really showed me how much faith I have in SKT - Tigers had a significant lead, but it still felt pretty even to me - throughout so much of the game, I felt it could go either way really easily, and there were some really fun team fights.

--GAME 4--
I like the Tigers' choice to leave Nid open against Bengi - seems like a smart use of Bengi's relatively small (and non-mechanics-focused) champ pool. And given that Peanut is Peanut, SKT can't really afford to leave it up, so they basically force SKT's first pick is basically decided for them. And that's on top of making SKT banning *support Miss Fortune*, and then their start is really smart against Nidalee? Tigers' coaching really set them up well.

Bengi's Nid really shows who Bengi is a jungler. It feels very different from most Nids - less focused on farming and making big plays, just running around and controlling the game.

Really smart play around baron by SKT to break the bot inhib (and basically win the game)

--GAME 5--
Peanut outsmarting Bengi early game is huge. Bengi's always been about playing smart and being at the right place at the right time, but for the first 5 minutes Peanut reverse-Bengi'd him, seeming to always know where Bengi planned to go and be there waiting.

In the end, though, it feels like SKT just handled the pressure of playing for five back to back games better. Which isn't really surprising - SKT's discipline has always been one of their strengths.

--FINAL THOUGHTS--
I'm gonna go ahead and call SKT as winning the tournament, and I'm sure I'm not alone there. After the incredible play we saw from both teams in this BO5, I just don't see SSG or H2K coming out ahead.

I also really wish that SKT could seem as cohesive with Blank as they do with Bengi. I'm an old-school SKT fanboy who loves Bengi, but I've felt like Bengi's been kind of wanting to retire for a while now, but feels he can't until his team has a suitable replacement.

It's a shame that the Tigers have never managed to quite find real success - they're a great team with a very fun, dynamic line up. But as much as I love them, my SKT fanboyism wins out, so I'm okay with it.

Is there anywhere that we can find the runes and masteries that were used in Worlds? I'm curious to see them, particularly for some of the pocket picks we've seen.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hey, Djinn, I think I just played against you in ranked. It's fun and a little surprising seeing somebody you recognize, when it's mostly just faceless pubs.

Not to burst your bubble, but...I'm away from my computer this weekend and haven't played more than two ranked games all season. :P

[Dienekes]

I matched against my brother once, though it was in normals. It was really funny that it took him until ~10 minutes in to realize it was me swooping out of the jungle into his lane.

(My team may have gotten crushed thanks to the mid lane LeBlanc roaming well, but oh well.)

One of the best games I ever played was when I was playing with a few friends and then a few more of their friends showed up. In any case we were left with 7 players, so we decided to just split off into a team of 3 and 4, and somehow we ended up matching against each other. We do not know how improbable that was. Has never happened again.

And as icing on the cake, my team won.

[PhantomFox]

Son of a cuss

Spoiler: ROX vs SKT

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My only hope at winning the Pickem was for ROX to win it all. Oh well, maybe next year.

[Siosilvar]

Only time I recall anything like that happening was when ten Mumblers went into matchmade Draft Dominions.

That was amusing since we all queued up in random sized groups. I think one of the groups actually got matched with the only five non-Mumblers in the queue for one of the games.

As for the original... might it have been Farix, another forumer & mumbler whose league name is Jiin in Tin?

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Not to burst your bubble, but...I'm away from my computer this weekend and haven't played more than two ranked games all season. :P

Eh, it's fine if not. I just saw somebody named Jin In Tonic in ranked, figured it was you, and made a comment about it. Was more a nice moment than anything. I haven't actually gotten in with the gitp group for much league (though I probably should).

[mrcarter11]

Just got around to reading 6.21 notes, had been hoping for some minor cho buffs after the w nerfs. No dice. Perhaps in preseason.

[Olinser]

All right, final day of the semifinals!!

Yesterday was some really good games. I hope H2K can at least put up a fight against SSG, but regardless of who wins I just feel like neither of them has any hope of winning finals.

[Duck999]

Spoiler: Worlds

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Game hasn't even started yet and I have comments. First of all, Jatt:
"H2Korean teams in finals."
Also, that TSM chant. I guess it won't go away as long as they are in NA.

[mrcarter11]

Spoiler: Worlds Semifinals Day 2

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Well return of the mf was both almost expected once zyra got locked in. I feel viktor lanes pretty well against cass so I'm not sure if I'm wrong or if I just don't see something. On the other hand, SSG has really low peel and no way to deal with kenned in a 5v5.. I like the SSG comp but a good kennen ult will win h3k the game.


THAT FIRST BLOOD! Well this series is off to a good start.

[Olinser]

Spoiler: H2K vs SSG Game 1

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Just confirms what I was thinking. H2K has an absolutely massive kill lead - 12-5 at one point - and yet they never really had a gold advantage. In fact they were DOWN in gold a lot of the game because Crown was absolutely shrecking Ryu in CS and SSG just had better map rotations.

I think this is going to be 3-0 for SSG.

[Eldariel]

Spoiler: H2K vs SSG Game 1

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Just confirms what I was thinking. H2K has an absolutely massive kill lead - 12-5 at one point - and yet they never really had a gold advantage. In fact they were DOWN in gold a lot of the game because Crown was absolutely shrecking Ryu in CS and SSG just had better map rotations.

I think this is going to be 3-0 for SSG.

Spoiler

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Perhaps. Then again, SSG comeback came from Ryu's absolutely bizarre movements in the middle. First he was in the bush between jungler and Viktor and then instead of Flashing over the wall when he got pincered, he tried to make a run for his team or something. This cost him two deaths and snowballed the midlane. If not for that, the H2K botlane snowball could've taken the game. I'm thinking it's gonna be 3-2 for SSG.

EDIT: Nevermind. Ryu is doing it again. If he keeps playing like this, it's gonna be an 0-3.

[mrcarter11]

Spoiler: Worlds

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The score was close throughout, but the gold lead was just always there.

[Olinser]

Spoiler: Worlds

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The score was close throughout, but the gold lead was just always there.

Spoiler: undefined

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Yeah. Like I said for game 1, SSG just has better map movements and objective control. H2K can hang with them in teamfights initially, but eventually SSG just runs away with the game due to objectives.

Time to see if H2K has any crazy off picks to try and take at least 1 game. If they keep playing this style of game they have no chance.

Spoiler: Post SSG vs H2K

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Called it. 3-0 SSG.

Dunno if SSG has any chance against SKT. I mean they beat H2K by playing the map better but SKT excels at that.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

This is another year where the semis are gonna have been more interesting than the grand final, isn't it?

[lord_khaine]

I do think that the Rok vs STK game is going to be the most exiting one we got this year. And honestly at this point i lost interest in worlds myself now. Just waiting for regular seasons to resume now.

[Anarion]

This is another year where the semis are gonna have been more interesting than the grand final, isn't it?

Probably. SKT v. Rox consistently produce the world's highest quality games whenever they play. Still

Spoiler: Finals matchup

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There's a chance that SSG actually puts something together strategically vs. SKT and they get to some really exciting lategame maneuvering where both teams really shine.

[Ashen Lilies]

Random thought: is there any value in Riot reworking flat Magic Pen into a stat similar to Lethality? Sorcery? Sorcerousness?

more random thoughts of questionable correctness and relevancy:

• flat magic pen stacking isn't really a thing compared to flat armor pen stacking (since haunting guise's price nerf - sorc shoes + haunting guise spike was commonly abused when haunting guise was cheaper)
• then again, only two flat magic pen items actually exist: sorcerers shoes and haunting guise/liandry's torment - both sorc shoes and guise have been repeatedly nerfed in addition.
• haunting guise feels terrible to buy since the price nerf. the price point is comparatively awkward compared to other similar purchases (1600 for guise - much later compared to ~1200 for NLR, chapter/codex + amp tome, or hexcore), and while technically gold efficient, the stat spread is too diluted to feel useful. the only reason people get it is to build into liandry's ASAP
• the main reason people get liandry's is to synergize with the passive using DoT's (Rumble, Teemo, Brand, Malzahar), not necessarily for the pen (though it's certainly nice to have) - main exceptions are damage!Elise due to low ratios and ridiculous pen scaling on her Q, and mage supports (Zyra, Vel'koz) because pen is the best form of damage scaling available on a support budget.
• liandry's has a rather confused stat profile anyway - flat pen is more effective against squishies, unique passive implies tank shredding - possibility for a rework similar to flat armor pen getting cut from black cleaver?
• flat pen right now is essentially hard-countered by aegis - one aegis on the entire team negates the entirety of your sorc shoes purchase. aegis aura getting removed next season makes flat pen comparatively more valuable/viable?
• reworking flat magic pen could open up more space for more magic pen items or making items like haunting guise less expensive and terrible-feeling to buy
• however, magic resist numbers are generally smaller than armor numbers. ranged champions don't get scaling magic resist at all.
• muddled mr vs armor itemization for tanks and squishies complicates the issue? tanks tend to build 1-2 mr items and 3-4 armor items. comparatively, the mr choices for squishies (abyssal, hexdrinker, mercurial scimitar, edge of night) are more plentiful and attractive than corresponding armor items (zhonya's, ???, ga?)

[Vogie]

Random thought: is there any value in Riot reworking flat Magic Pen into a stat similar to Lethality? Sorcery? Sorcerousness?

more random thoughts of questionable correctness and relevancy:

• flat magic pen stacking isn't really a thing compared to flat armor pen stacking (since haunting guise's price nerf - sorc shoes + haunting guise spike was commonly abused when haunting guise was cheaper)
• then again, only two flat magic pen items actually exist: sorcerers shoes and haunting guise/liandry's torment - both sorc shoes and guise have been repeatedly nerfed in addition.
• haunting guise feels terrible to buy since the price nerf. the price point is comparatively awkward compared to other similar purchases (1600 for guise - much later compared to ~1200 for NLR, chapter/codex + amp tome, or hexcore), and while technically gold efficient, the stat spread is too diluted to feel useful. the only reason people get it is to build into liandry's ASAP
• the main reason people get liandry's is to synergize with the passive using DoT's (Rumble, Teemo, Brand, Malzahar), not necessarily for the pen (though it's certainly nice to have) - main exceptions are damage!Elise due to low ratios and ridiculous pen scaling on her Q, and mage supports (Zyra, Vel'koz) because pen is the best form of damage scaling available on a support budget.
• liandry's has a rather confused stat profile anyway - flat pen is more effective against squishies, unique passive implies tank shredding - possibility for a rework similar to flat armor pen getting cut from black cleaver?
• flat pen right now is essentially hard-countered by aegis - one aegis on the entire team negates the entirety of your sorc shoes purchase. aegis aura getting removed next season makes flat pen comparatively more valuable/viable?
• reworking flat magic pen could open up more space for more magic pen items or making items like haunting guise less expensive and terrible-feeling to buy
• however, magic resist numbers are generally smaller than armor numbers. ranged champions don't get scaling magic resist at all.
• muddled mr vs armor itemization for tanks and squishies complicates the issue? tanks tend to build 1-2 mr items and 3-4 armor items. comparatively, the mr choices for squishies (abyssal, hexdrinker, mercurial scimitar, edge of night) are more plentiful and attractive than corresponding armor items (zhonya's, ???, ga?)

I agree there should be some revamp. Choosing any boots other than Sorcs is a major damage loss. At the same time, I know that the assassins, Darius, Jhin & co would absolutely love to have leathality boots as an option, so the lack of that option indicates that Riot balances them differently. Even if they make it a unique passive so you can't double-dip between Sorc Boots and NewMagPenItem, that'd be fine.

We also need at least one other AP + Armor item - we used to have Iceborn Guantlet, but then they took the Amp Tome out of the Sheen.

As a Malz Enthusiast, I'm still not a fan of QSS & it's ilk still being a hard-counter. And then they nerfed it additionally by reducing its effectiveness against Zed, Trundle, Fiora, and the like.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I agree there should be some revamp. Choosing any boots other than Sorcs is a major damage loss. At the same time, I know that the assassins, Darius, Jhin & co would absolutely love to have leathality boots as an option, so the lack of that option indicates that Riot balances them differently. Even if they make it a unique passive so you can't double-dip between Sorc Boots and NewMagPenItem, that'd be fine.

Personally I'm not a fan of offensive boots in general: I think it would be more interesting if boots were almost primarily defensive/utility based. Sure, that may cut a little into offensive power, but you could add that back in by either slightly buffing ALL offensive items or, to stop early game power spikes, bake scaling power into several items kind of like Essence Reaver has now: something that will eventually make back the power that Beserker's Greaves or Sorc Shoes give now over the course of 2-3 major item purchases. I know that, as someone who often plays Marksmen, I'd love to feel like I'm not sacrificing a sizable DPS output from Zerker's if I want to go Swiftness or Mobility or something.

We also need at least one other AP + Armor item - we used to have Iceborn Guantlet, but then they took the Amp Tome out of the Sheen.

Not sure on this one, just from the point of how versatile and powerful Zhonya's can be in the right circumstances. I'm not sure "Tanky AP" is actually a big enough niche that we need more itemization for that specific subsection that buying Zhonya's or buying an AP item and another Armor item can't provide. Of course, that's also slightly related by my problem with AP Bruisers as a whole, but that's another story.

[Ivellius]

Random thought: is there any value in Riot reworking flat Magic Pen into a stat similar to Lethality? Sorcery? Sorcerousness?

I think this is the kind of thing that should've been considered in the Mage update (maybe it was!), and for all the reasons you've listed I'm not sure it's worth much. There aren't really enough items that use it, and there probably aren't enough competing roles that prioritize flat v. percentage penetration differently (unlike, say, ADCs v. Assassins). But you had a lot of depth to that brainstorming.

As a Malz Enthusiast, I'm still not a fan of QSS & it's ilk still being a hard-counter. And then they nerfed it additionally by reducing its effectiveness against Zed, Trundle, Fiora, and the like.

I would argue that, given how strong suppression is, I'm glad there is a kind of hard counter to it. You could balance the suppression champions around it a little more closely, but you'd have to strip power from other places.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm more curious to see what people think of the new jungle plants. I kinda feel like the scouting plant will be bad for pro play, because it means less tricks with death bushes, and makes securing vision even harder, but better for low level play because it's easier to ward safer when you are the squishy support and basically the only vision granter on your team.

The bomb plant looks interesting, I'm not sure what to think on that.

The HP plant I'm ambivalent towards. HP is the most common and abundant resource, and I don't think adding more will be that big of a difference.

[Vogie]

I would argue that, given how strong suppression is, I'm glad there is a kind of hard counter to it. You could balance the suppression champions around it a little more closely, but you'd have to strip power from other places.

While I completely agree about the power of suppression, it's also the only CC a Malz has, which also suppresses his damage in that it's a MR item, which doesn't do much against Skarner, Warwick or Urgot.

I'd be fine if they tied the QSS effect to a boot enchant, so the enemy has a Choice between Swifties (reduces slows), Mercs (reduces duration of Hard CC other than Supression/Airborne), and Quicksilver (removes suppression). That makes sense.

[Ivellius]

I'm more curious to see what people think of the new jungle plants.

With the removal of the chicken buff and the general chipping away of vision options, having a plant that eases this issue is useful. The bomb plants are fine, I guess? In some ways they make low-mobility junglers easier, but high-mobility benefit, too. Honeyfruit is also fine, I guess. I think seeing how all of the changes interact will be necessary--jungle this season has been really rough when you get behind.

While I completely agree about the power of suppression, it's also the only CC a Malz has, which also suppresses his damage in that it's a MR item, which doesn't do much against Skarner, Warwick or Urgot.

I'd be fine if they tied the QSS effect to a boot enchant, so the enemy has a Choice between Swifties (reduces slows), Mercs (reduces duration of Hard CC other than Supression/Airborne), and Quicksilver (removes suppression). That makes sense.

A) He has a silence, B) Skarner and Warwick have a decent amount of magic damage, and C) this is more an argument for reworking Malzahar than for changing Quicksilver. I definitely understand the frustration (I have Mastery 6 on Warwick), but suppression is really powerful and probably shouldn't be in the game if there's no way to counter it.

[Olinser]

All right guys, finals today!!

Not a lot of people are picking SSG to win. I personally am just hoping for some good games - SSG hasn't been particularly hard pressed yet, they could easily have some pocket picks or strats that they are going to bring out against SKT.

Spoiler: Champion Select Game 1

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No real big shocks here, although I'm a bit surprised that Faker locked in Orianna with Viktor still available.

We'll have to see how this goes, but I definitely feel like playing a 'normal' game like this heavily favors SKT.

[Duck999]

Spoiler: Finals

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So happy that this is so even. Hopefully this means a finals better than semis.

Spoiler: HOLY FINALS

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THAT END! That was a pretty sweet game. I hope the rest are like that.

[mrcarter11]

Spoiler: Worlds Finals

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Typical SKT game 1. Give the enemy team everything they want, then beat them. It was a long game and probably shouldn't have been, but I feel SKT played well against some incredible SSG waveclear.

[Olinser]

Spoiler: SSG vs SKT Game 1

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SKT was in control almost the entire game, and even though they made a couple of major misplays that let SSG come back, they had just taken too much at that point.

Normal games definitely favor SKT. SSG needs to change the dynamic of the game if they want to have a chance of winning this.

Spoiler: SSG vs SKT Game 2

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All right SSG definitely trying to alter the game by bringing out the Kindred, but they just had a series of bad fights just not respecting the Ryze mobility, and that put them way too far behind. But SSG showed they had at least one trick up their sleeves - wonder if they have another one in the tank.

Spoiler: SSG vs SKT Game 3

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Wow it looked like SKT was just going to steamroll that at the start. Crown was just flailing around on Aurelion Sol, Ruler was tilted as hell and just getting manhandled.

But they were able to stall that out for just so long and take FOUR dragons. SKT took 2 Elders and SSG basically ignored them because they had no power behind them.

THEN THAT AMBITION STEAL LOL

SSG needs to not pick the Sol again though. Crown just did not look comfortable on him.

Spoiler: SSG vs SKT Game 4

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That is a game that just happened. Crown is back on Viktor and in fine form, CuVee just laying WASTE with that Kennan. Despite Ambition's best efforts to throw the game, they pulled it out.

But damn CuVee carried that so hard.

Spoiler: SSG vs SKT Game 5

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So SKT finally realized they're supposed to actually win this.

This was a great series though, it may have been the closest best of 5 I saw.