League Of Legends LXVII: "MY PICK'EMS!"

[lord_khaine]

Considering the tutorial includes the bots shouting insults that honestly doesn't surprise me. Though I'd still love to read that article.

It were a youtube article, i have tried to find it, but it has kinda sunk back into the sea

[thracian]

Leblanc clears minions more easily, but the delay before reactivation on her passive makes her feel noticeably weaker than she was. Talon seems interesting. Katarina is fun, but seems tricky.

EDIT: Krug spawning is buggy, one small one spawned on the other side of the wall, ran back around to the proper side and then promptly ran away again as patience ran out. Appeared to set his "home" to the other side of the wall, near red buff bush. Ivern also does not get any gold/xp from the Matryoshka Krugs, only the initial two. Possibly intentional, as that much gold and xp cleared instantly might be more than Riot wants to give. Speaking of which, the Krug camp gives a different amount of XP depending on what order you kill them.

Talon wall running is buggy. Certain walls at certain angles will put you back on the same side of the wall, usually having moved a very short distance.

The common theme among the reworks seems to be introducing blatant counterplay openings. I think a few of them are too heavy-handed, and with the lack of any changes to other gameplay elements that reduce the effectiveness of assassins (teamfight meta, vision being very accessible and strong, exhaust not being removed by QSS), don't hold your breath for assassins to make a triumphant return in competitive-level play.

[Olinser]

Leblanc clears minions more easily, but the delay before reactivation on her passive makes her feel noticeably weaker than she was. Talon seems interesting. Katarina is fun, but seems tricky.

EDIT: Krug spawning is buggy, one small one spawned on the other side of the wall, ran back around to the proper side and then promptly ran away again as patience ran out. Appeared to set his "home" to the other side of the wall, near red buff bush. Ivern also does not get any gold/xp from the Matryoshka Krugs, only the initial two. Possibly intentional, as that much gold and xp cleared instantly might be more than Riot wants to give. Speaking of which, the Krug camp gives a different amount of XP depending on what order you kill them.

Talon wall running is buggy. Certain walls at certain angles will put you back on the same side of the wall, usually having moved a very short distance.

The common theme among the reworks seems to be introducing blatant counterplay openings. I think a few of them are too heavy-handed, and with the lack of any changes to other gameplay elements that reduce the effectiveness of assassins (teamfight meta, vision being very accessible and strong, exhaust not being removed by QSS), don't hold your breath for assassins to make a triumphant return in competitive-level play.

Saw the Krug issue myself. They definitely need to work on the spawns.

On the whole it feels to me like they significantly increased the assassin skill requirement to get about the same performance, and significantly DECREASED the skill necessary to counterplay/outplay them. But a couple of them it also feels like a sufficiently skilled player will get higher performance. We'll have to see where it goes. I agree with you though, the window for counter-playing assassins is so big now that pro players will have no problem shutting them down and keeping them off their carries.

But on the other hand, a Zed that kills a 6 item Jhin is unstoppable. Zed gets about +100 AD from him.

[Ashen Lilies]

Ivern not getting the full payoff for the Krug camp is intentional.

[thracian]

As much as I think she's probably garbage tier right now, Katarina is the most enjoyable champion in the game to lane right now. Katarina vs. Katarina mirrors are probably the best argument for this preseason existing.

[Olinser]

As much as I think she's probably garbage tier right now, Katarina is the most enjoyable champion in the game to lane right now. Katarina vs. Katarina mirrors are probably the best argument for this preseason existing.

Can you pick up the other kat's knives?

[thracian]

Can you pick up the other kat's knives?

Nope. That'd be a little silly.

[Dienekes]

Ivern not getting the full payoff for the Krug camp is intentional.

Well that certainly sucks for the 1 guy I saw trying to use jungle Ivern since his release.

[Olinser]

Nope. That'd be a little silly.

That made me think of this Family Guy scene (start at 26 seconds) :

Spoiler: undefined

Show

[Vogie]

Talon wall running is buggy. Certain walls at certain angles will put you back on the same side of the wall, usually having moved a very short distance.

I'm really surprised they didn't use the same landing indicator for his jump that they did with... whatever the bomb plants are called. They shipped at the same time, and are for effectively the same thing.

Nope. That'd be a little silly.

An opposing Draven can catch the other Draven's Axes, so there is precedent...

[thracian]

Draven catching other Draven axes does not change the dynamic of how to play the lane nearly as much as Kat daggers would. Katarina's entire kit, barring her ult, is now based entirely around getting daggers in good places and using them to control zones and grant additional mobility. If your zones of control are now enemy zones of control as well, midlane immediately becomes a very silly place.

EDIT: Renekton tended to take Fervor before this patch, but he's pretty much only going to take it now.

[Reinboom]

I read a study of the game system, that explained how it straight up encuraged a toxic enviroment by its design.

I'm very curious about this study.

Do you have a source or any bit more of information that would make it easier to find?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm very curious about this study.

Do you have a source or any bit more of information that would make it easier to find?

Likewise highly curious: I've seen many articles on why the GENRE of games encourages toxicity, but never one specifically targeted at DotA...and, I hope, differentiating its issues from those of other games in the same genre?

[Reinboom]

Likewise highly curious: I've seen many articles on why the GENRE of games encourages toxicity, but never one specifically targeted at DotA...and, I hope, differentiating its issues from those of other games in the same genre?

Huh, I read it as one on Dawngate. I'm less interested (but would still read) one on DotA.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Huh, I read it as one on Dawngate. I'm less interested (but would still read) one on DotA.

You may be right? I'm unsure -- it seemed the system in discussion was DotAs, and then Dawngate was brought up, but the structure of the sentence isn't as clear as I'd like.

I'm mainly basing this on the fact that, from what I've seen, I'd say DotA's design lends itself more towards toxicity than Dawngate's.

[Maryring]

While I don't know the study in question, I sincerely doubt Dawngate lent itself to toxicity since it lacked a forced support role and instead made both lanes duo lanes with decent gold generation for the nonfarmers. While DOTA has mechanics like creep denial built into the system.

[lord_khaine]

I'm very curious about this study.

Do you have a source or any bit more of information that would make it easier to find?

Hmm.. at closer thought i can see i made a minor mistake, and confused Dota with heroes of Newearth. I do apologize for that. Though all the same it seems the two games are clones of each other.

Anyway, as mentioned it were a youtube article, from about 2-3 years ago at least. And i have done my best to see if i could not find the relevant video once more on google but failed to do so.
Its a shame really, because it had a lot of good points. It went into the details of the game mechanics, and pointed out the ones that served in particular to turn people against each other and promoted egoism.

The points in particular that stood out were how that game tracked KDA for your games, how it were possible to solo carry and how that meant gathering as much gold and farm on a single person were an advantage, as well as how snowballing the games could become.

[Ivellius]

The points in particular that stood out were how that game tracked KDA for your games, how it were possible to solo carry and how that meant gathering as much gold and farm on a single person were an advantage, as well as how snowballing the games could become.

I feel like I may have seen / read something along these lines, though it's been a while. There's also the mechanic that a team that loses a player gets that player's income, meaning that encouraging a poor player to quit may be the most optimal move for your team.

[lord_khaine]

I feel like I may have seen / read something along these lines, though it's been a while. There's also the mechanic that a team that loses a player gets that player's income, meaning that encouraging a poor player to quit may be the most optimal move for your team.

Oh yeah its worse though, you can vote to kick people out of a game in HoN.

[Joran]

I feel like I may have seen / read something along these lines, though it's been a while. There's also the mechanic that a team that loses a player gets that player's income, meaning that encouraging a poor player to quit may be the most optimal move for your team.

I remember seeing this video too. I think it may have been an Extra Credits or GDC video, but haven't been able to find it.

[Nadevoc]

Hmm.. at closer thought i can see i made a minor mistake, and confused Dota with heroes of Newearth. I do apologize for that. Though all the same it seems the two games are clones of each other.

Anyway, as mentioned it were a youtube article, from about 2-3 years ago at least. And i have done my best to see if i could not find the relevant video once more on google but failed to do so.
Its a shame really, because it had a lot of good points. It went into the details of the game mechanics, and pointed out the ones that served in particular to turn people against each other and promoted egoism.

The points in particular that stood out were how that game tracked KDA for your games, how it were possible to solo carry and how that meant gathering as much gold and farm on a single person were an advantage, as well as how snowballing the games could become.

HoN and DotA 2 are both clones of the original DotA All-Stars (custom map for Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne). They diverged and weren't exactly the same, but yes, they're more or less clones and the underlying game design is the same, so it would apply to DotA as well.

[Maryring]

I remember seeing this video too. I think it may have been an Extra Credits or GDC video, but haven't been able to find it.

I binged on EC videos recently and didn't see it among those, so probably that other thing you mentioned if so.

[Dienekes]

So anyone have any thoughts on the assassin update? I don't particularly play many of them, myself. But, I just Aramed Shaco and it just did not feel good, at all. Probably doing something wrong, but I just felt useless the whole game.

I've been pretty much afraid to actually try normals, like pretty much every pre-season, at least until Riot gets a few weeks to fine-tune everything and I get a read on how annoying those plants are going to be.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So anyone have any thoughts on the assassin update? I don't particularly play many of them, myself. But, I just Aramed Shaco and it just did not feel good, at all. Probably doing something wrong, but I just felt useless the whole game.

I've only played Talon so far, and he's a lot of fun...although his Jump is unreliable at best, and I feel would benefit STRONGLY from an indicator like that of the blast flowers: sometimes it's hard to predict exactly where he will land with some of the geometry.

I was also very frustrated that game: the enemy had a jungle Shaco and, although I was equally fed if more fed at most stages, I felt entirely powerless against him. My burst had been delayed enough that I couldn't one-shot him instantly, and Talon cannot catch someone with that long a period of invisibility after a blink. It really felt like a hard counter: I'd hit him, he'd go invisible, and that would be that. And if he hit me first I'd usually struggle to get away unless there was a wall immediately present. It felt...awful and crippling, actually.

[Siosilvar]

I've been pretty much afraid to actually try normals, like pretty much every pre-season, at least until Riot gets a few weeks to fine-tune everything and I get a read on how annoying those plants are going to be.

Wouldn't the fastest way to figure out how the plants are going to be... to go and play where the plants are? What's even at stake in normals? This stuff is new to everybody, and you can always play draft where all the new stuff is going to be banned out anyway.

[Renegade Paladin]

This new ranked queue is bonkers; I keep winding up with platinum players. It's like doing normals with Thracian except I'm not in chat with everybody and my team's really mean about it.

[Dienekes]

Wouldn't the fastest way to figure out how the plants are going to be... to go and play where the plants are? What's even at stake in normals? This stuff is new to everybody, and you can always play draft where all the new stuff is going to be banned out anyway.

Because if the answer ends up being "super annoying" I'd rather just stop playing the game. All evidence points to it being incredibly annoying, so I'm going to wait to see if people end up talking about it, and if they discuss the aspects about it that I don't particularly like and people talk strategy in a way that seems counter to what I find fun in the game, I'm perfectly fine just playing ARAMs until they rework Pantheon and I just quit the game for good.

[Renegade Paladin]

The plants don't seem annoying so far. It's a nice vision and escape tool, and the berries in the river haven't come up all that much, honestly. I did see a full health person kill one and eat them all for no reason just now, though; it was funny because the slow meant I could catch her.

[thracian]

This new ranked queue is bonkers; I keep winding up with platinum players. It's like doing normals with Thracian except I'm not in chat with everybody and my team's really mean about it.

At least you weren't a bunch of Bronze/Silver players that just kinda had Faker in the game.

Flex queue is super ****ed right now.

EDIT: Plants don't do that much. Blast plants sometimes lead to unexpected results, but they're mostly a non-factor at the moment.

Champion balance is kinda all over. Regarding assassins, LeBlanc's laning is better, but her teamfighting is comparatively awful. Katarina is sorta trash, but she's super fun at least. Kha'Zix and Rengar seem to generally be considered bonkers, with people being on the fence regarding Talon and Fizz. General opinion is that they're at weakest, they're in the same ballpark as they used to be, but with proper learning they might end up being stronger. Akali W is super nice, but the damage nerfs overall on her kit and the relative weakness of her passive compared to her old one lead me to think she's in a slightly weaker spot than she was before. Zed, Ekko and Shaco didn't really change noticeably, although they obviously did change some.

Many people who relied on Ghostblade spike early are a little screwed now, and Fervor is significantly weaker. Lucian is super, super sad because of this, and MF isn't happy either. Twitch and Draven mostly just build crit now. Twitch is actually looking really strong right now, mostly due to the changes to his Venom Cask.

Fiddlesticks is super garbage. Every single change made to the jungle this patch hinders him (no ward clearing with raptor buff, buffs have fewer enemies so fewer Dark Wind bounces, krugs and raptors have too many enemies for Drain to be meaningful, doesn't need honeyfruit due to already being hyper-sustained, blast fruit knocks him out of Drain...)

Support items are largely pretty insane. Redemption is a standout as particularly bonkers, but Knight's Vow is pretty nice as well.

As far as I can tell, what is popular has changed dramatically but what is strong hasn't changed much.

[Dienekes]

Zed, Ekko and Shaco didn't really change noticeably, although they obviously did change some.

Huh, to me Shaco felt way weaker. But that may be because I only ARAM Shaco, and do AP.

And, well, Shiv lost about 85 in base damage, 10% in AP scaling, and no longer gains the 20% Backstab bonus. That along with losing 2 seconds of early stealth really shut down any capability to harass the enemy team, forcing most of your damage to be melee, which, is often suicidal in ARAM.

Definitely not a situation they were really trying to balance around, but it was a bit annoying just having things that I know I can normally pull off just failing, repeatedly.