Sometimes the only way out of a trap

[ag30476]

is to go into it. There's a lot of speculation on other threads but here is what page 61 shows us:

1) Ansom knows he's fallen for a trap. Vinnie say, "He played us. And good."

2) Ansom knows Stanley did not think of this trap. Nor does he think Wanda or Jillian or Sizemore thought of it. Ansom says, "But something like this is beyond him."

3) Ansom is guessing there is a new warlord on Stanley's side. He does not know who it is but it is a good one. Vinnie says, "This looks like a pretty shrewd trick, arright." Ansom responds, "Yes. Yes it does. Yes it does!")

4) Ansom knows Stanley has Foolamancers. Wanda, or someone else at the meeting, says "His assumption again. He knows we have a Foolamancer..."

5) Given 3 and 4 and the fact that Ansom and Vinnie have figured out what has happened to them despite the fog of war (avoiding the Jillian-baited trap, finding out what the dwagon attacks were doing, figuring out Parson's original plan), it is unlikely that Ansom thinks the center hex has veiled troops.

6) This is reinforced by Wanda's statement, "Perhaps he would rather believe that we have veiled our wounded units than that we have bested him tactically." This is clearly wrong. First because we know from 1 and 2 above that Ansom and Vinnie have admitted to themselves that they were bested. Second, because it is a speculation by Wanda on battle tactics. Something we can assume she's not good at (otherwise why would she not be the supreme warlord for Stanley?).

7) As soon as Ansom figured out he was playing against a new warlord and that this was a trap he appears determined, orders "Battle formations!" and the troops appear to move into the center hex. Parson is surprised by this move, “Why would he do that?” And in response to Wanda’s speculation above says “I guess…” So Parson is not taking this move at face value, that is, that the move is not outright blunder.

8) Ansom has some plan in mind that although cost him dearly will get his “boops” out of the vice.

9) Ansom has shown that although he is not uncaring of his troops he is willing to sacrifice them for gain. For example, he said the orly’s were expendable if they could save Jillian. Vinnie’s bats are expendable, if they get scouting information. Woodsy elves and gumps are expendables if they can help takeout uncroaked warlords and injured dragons.

So the question: what can Ansom sacrifice now and what can he gain.

The second question is: Why is Ansom shown alone in the 2nd to last panel in 61? When moving, Ansom is normally shown next to Vinnie and amid his troops or with his flying carpet making the “run-nuh-nuh-nuh” sound. Is he the sacrifice?

[jindra34]

umm... only number 1 is garunteed to be true. so sorry.

[Krellen]

I just have to say that you make some pretty extreme assumptions here, many of which are quite a stretch:

1. Wanda is a bad tactician. Considering that the planned ambush of Ansom with the rescue of Jillian was more or less her idea, foiled only by Vinny's caution, this seems a poor assumption.

2. Because of 1, Wanda's tactical assessment is automatically wrong. Even ungifted individuals can get things right once in a while.

3. Wanda is making a tactical assessment. She isn't. She has spent no effort on judging Ansom's tactical expertise or the strategic value of his move. She is simply making an assessment based on the personality of the man involved. Knowing people and manipulating them (which involves a heavy dose of predicting motive and action) is actually one of her demonstrated strengths, not a weakness.

4. Ansom knows he's up against a new player. His statements show nothing of the sort. His dialogue makes far more sense read as - exactly as Wanda calls it - "You're right, this is too smart for him - which means he's trying to trick us!"

Your assumptions are speculative at best, and really form a poor argument.

[True]

I think the tricky thing here (linguistically) is that Vinny says it looks like a pretty shrewd trick. By agreeing, Ansom may be suggesting that it merely looks shrewd rather than in fact being a clever trick.

Arg, Krellen beat me to my point by seconds.

[rubicon209]

I really don't think that Ansom has a counter-trap laid, or that he knows there is another warlord in charge of Team Stanley.

I think that the reason Ansom charged into the center hex, was that he had already seen the use of a Foolamancer to 'veil' enemy troops. He assumed that there was no way Stanley could have been clever enough to not even have the wounded Dwagons in the center hex. Ansom thus ordered battle formations and charged in, expecting to nail a 'cloaked' stack. I think this is born out by the next-to-last panel, where it shows a lone Ansom, with a likely bewildered look on his face. I think by having him as the only thing in the panel, with that expression on his face, highlights that Ansom simply refused to believe that he had been out-thought or fooled by Stanley (and of course, he wasn't, really).

Sooo, I'm going to have to say that there is no bold and amazing master-stroke on the part of Ansom, nothing at all save the realization he is well and truly booped...


Farrell

[Renx]

Ansom has a lot of Gumps and Elves with him. I'm guessing he's going to break through the pincer formation. He might lose some units, but he was willing to do that already. Right now his goals are to 1) Get back to the column[just 3 moves as he's not going around] and 2) kill as many Dwagons as he can.

He might be trapped, but he's not out of it. Not by a long shot.

[ag30476]

I just have to say that you make some pretty extreme assumptions here, many of which are quite a stretch.
...
Your assumptions are speculative at best, and really form a poor argument.

Perhaps...but what was it that I really said? That Ansom knows he fell for a clever trick? He did. He knows it. The rest? I'm just saying that Ansom is trying to minimize his losses and maximize the damage he does. That's the point of the speculation of all the other threads. There is no easy way out of the trap for Ansom. I'm not saying that Ansom is coming out unscathed or that the battle is over for either side by any stretch. And just what Ansom can do is what I'm wondering...as is Parson. Just cause I like Parson, doesn't mean that I have to think like Stanley.

I wonder why so many people want Ansom out of the way? Look I like all the characters but getting rid of the main leader of the siege is just going to require an introduction of a new one (and the replacement won't be Vinnie or Jillian). That introduction will take at least a couple of pages. Why waist pages on that?

[ag30476]

I think the tricky thing here (linguistically) is that Vinny says it looks like a pretty shrewd trick. By agreeing, Ansom may be suggesting that it merely looks shrewd rather than in fact being a clever trick.

Arg, Krellen beat me to my point by seconds.

Vinnie is not one to be shy about his opinions. So are you saying that Vinni also thinks it "merely looks shrewd rather than in fact being a clever trick"?

[True]

Vinnie is not one to be shy about his opinions. So are you saying that Vinni also thinks it "merely looks shrewd rather than in fact being a clever trick"?

Not at all. Vinny clearly believes that team Ansom has been outsmarted. What I'm saying is that Ansom (the true-born noble with nothing but contempt for the "promoted" Stanley (for the wrong reasons)) doesn't look like he believes he's been outsmarted. It looks to me like he only believes it's a game-mechanic trick (veiling) rather than a strategic trick (hiding the dragons elsewhere).

[ag30476]

I really don't think that Ansom has a counter-trap laid, or that he knows there is another warlord in charge of Team Stanley.

Neither do I. Who said that?

I think that the reason Ansom charged into the center hex, was that he had already seen the use of a Foolamancer to 'veil' enemy troops. He assumed that there was no way Stanley could have been clever enough to not even have the wounded Dwagons in the center hex. Ansom thus ordered battle formations and charged in, expecting to nail a 'cloaked' stack. I think this is born out by the next-to-last panel, where it shows a lone Ansom, with a likely bewildered look on his face.

Likely bewildered? Behind his helmet? Interesting assumption.

I think by having him as the only thing in the panel, with that expression on his face, highlights that Ansom simply refused to believe that he had been out-thought or fooled by Stanley (and of course, he wasn't, really).

And Vinnie's expression? Wouldn't that highlight the fact more? Or how about the expressions of Ansom and Vinnie in front of the now booped squads of elves and gumps?

Sooo, I'm going to have to say that there is no bold and amazing master-stroke on the part of Ansom, nothing at all save the realization he is well and truly booped...

Why is everything either bold and amazing or booped? How about doing the best you can when you're in a tough spot until you can get reorganized?

Why do people want Ansom to be captured or killed, the Arkenpliers to handed over to Stanley, the forest units annihilated, the siege units destroyed, and the coalition to be break up or grind to a halt until a new leader is introduced?

For my part, I would rather see both sides continue the struggle.

[ag30476]

Not at all. Vinny clearly believes that team Ansom has been outsmarted. What I'm saying is that Ansom (the true-born noble with nothing but contempt for the "promoted" Stanley (for the wrong reasons)) doesn't look like he believes he's been outsmarted. It looks to me like he only believes it's a game-mechanic trick (veiling) rather than a strategic trick (hiding the dragons elsewhere).

OK but this would then be the first time that Vinnie has not been able to express himself clearly or reach a consensus with Ansom on a plan of action. We'll see.

[Nathander]

Perhaps...but what was it that I really said? That Ansom knows he fell for a clever trick? He did. He knows it.

Actually, I got the idea that Ansom felt he was being deceived and that Stanley's units were simply veiled, as Wanda suggested. Ansom can't possibly know that there's a new warlord as, in a way, it would be hard to expect one since it would've required Stanley to basically manage to magic in a new warlord, and not only that, but a warlord he wasn't also putting out on the field of battle to level him up, which had apparently been Stanley's main strategy.

Of course, we know that this "magic-ing in" is exactly what Stanley had done, but again, Ansom never would've considered this possibility as there's no evidence that Ansom would know Stanley even necessarily had casters with this capability.

I like Ansom, but he's basically booped.

I wonder why so many people want Ansom out of the way? Look I like all the characters but getting rid of the main leader of the siege is just going to require an introduction of a new one (and the replacement won't be Vinnie or Jillian). That introduction will take at least a couple of pages. Why waist pages on that?

I'll admit that I don't come to the Erfworld forums very often, so I haven't seen this attitude towards Ansom. However, I do feel that he will, eventually, be taken out of the main picture, either through death (as Stanley wants) or by capturing him (as Parson wants). In all honesty, I'd like to see him captured if it comes to it, as then he could at least still be part of the story.

[ag30476]

Ansom has a lot of Gumps and Elves with him. I'm guessing he's going to break through the pincer formation. He might lose some units, but he was willing to do that already. Right now his goals are to 1) Get back to the column[just 3 moves as he's not going around] and 2) kill as many Dwagons as he can.

He might be trapped, but he's not out of it. Not by a long shot.

Something like that is what I'm thinking but...

It does not look like the gumps and elves have enough move to reach the column before Stanley's next move. And if he wanted to take out dwagons why didn't he just plow into an adjacent pincer? It's just as far a move.

And the next to last panel showing only Ansom? What's that all about?

Ansom's going to have to give something up but what?

[sihnfahl]

And Vinnie's expression? Wouldn't that highlight the fact more? Or how about the expressions of Ansom and Vinnie in front of the now booped squads of elves and gumps?

All of Vinny's expressions express disbelief in what Ansom's thinking. He's skeptical of the conclusions Ansom is coming to.
Ansom is adamantly believing that he's right. Stanley did not trick him. The dwagons are in the middle of the fort. He's going to fight and beat the dwagons and warlords.

How about doing the best you can when you're in a tough spot until you can get reorganized?

Reorganization only works in RTS. In turn-based, he's all or nothing at the end of his turn. Everything has to be in place the way he wants before the dwagons have a chance to move.

Why do people want Ansom to be captured or killed, the Arkenpliers to handed over to Stanley, the forest units annihilated, the siege units destroyed, and the coalition to be break up or grind to a halt until a new leader is introduced?

Pretty fun conclusion there. But, in any case, it's the culmination of a well-planned trap against a foe who was overly confident and dismissive of his opponent. Ansom captured/killed would just emphasize all the missteps he took. We want the siege gone because it effectively ends the battle of gobwin knob (which would end the story anyhow)... and...

For my part, I would rather see both sides continue the struggle.

... leads into the successive stories. Remember, Stanley still wants all the Arkentools. He'd only have 2 - the hammer and pliers. There's also all the elements of the coalition to deal with/fight. And all the cities Stanley lost? He'll want Parson to take them back.

And the next to last panel showing only Ansom? What's that all about?

Simple. Ansom rushed in believing the units were veiled. Him, alone, motionless, just emphasizes the fact that, "Hey, Ansom messed up..." No big battle against the expected warlords and dwagons. No glory. No tricks.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I said it before, Ansom knows he is booped...his only hope lies in the fact that this might just be a trick of Stanley's of hiding the dwagons with an illusion. His comments after vinnie suggests that it looks like a pretty shrewd trick is his realization that 'it does' look like one...in fact it probably is in his opinion...he still believes that STanley is calling the shots so he goes with the only assumption that makes sense...that Stanley is hiding his troops in the obvious place to keep them safe since he is not smart enough to outmanuver him so completely.

In essence though, Ansom has nothing to lose. Either he is right and he gets the battle he was looking for against the dwagons, or he is wrong and charges into an empty hex, no worse than his last position. Either way, he confirms that he was right about Stanley's tactics, or confirms that Stanley, or someone else has done some mighty fine manuvering and he is in even bigger trouble than he realizes.

[mrocktor]

Ansom is getting majorly booped next round, no doubt about it. The only thing that can save him is Stanley doing something incredibly stupid on his turn (against Parson's advice).

And I'd put my shmuckers* on Ansom still not having realized someone else is calling the shots for Stanley when he charged the center.

*EDIT

[nooblade]

I'm fairly sure that it would be very advantageous of Ansom to attack right now, if not against the 'A' dwagons, then in trying to wipe out the 'B' ones. Once they get the bonuses from the uncroaked warlords, those dwagons aren't going to be very fun to defend against. But I don't like Ansom, so screw him.

Even if Ansom escapes the trap, he's still vulnerable to dragons within the column--Parson could attack him just like he attacked the siege. However, the Arkenpliers will do fairly well against the uncroaked warlords, meaning that Parson might meet disaster if he sends the warlords out after him like with the siege. If Ansom has enough move left and finds the location of the dwagons that are tired, then he and Jillian might beat up everyone in group A, including the warlords.

I predict that Parson is going to mess up either of these two ways because he doesn't know about the nature of the 'pliers, maybe soon maybe later.

I also figure that Jillian is getting really antsy right now and is probably about to do something about what's going on.

But it is just a comic strip. No need for people around here to get so antsy about it.

[ChowGuy]

7) As soon as Ansom figured out he was playing against a new warlord and that this was a trap he appears determined, orders "Battle formations!" and the troops appear to move into the center hex.

Which is perhaps the strongest argument against your own assumption. If Ansom knows he's up against something completely new, it's rash of him to charge in without a plan. Per his character sheet, he clearly considers himself a great tactician. Planning is one of his strengths, but humility is a weakness. "if the plan does not plan for problems outside the plan, then it isn't a plan at all." He knows Stanley, and to him Stanley has to be predictable. The only "problem" he didn't plan for was the Dwagons not being there. It's inconcievable to him that his plan was not a plan at all, therefore the Dwagons must be there.

[ag30476]

All of Vinny's expressions express disbelief in what Ansom's thinking. He's skeptical of the conclusions Ansom is coming to.
Ansom is adamantly believing that he's right. Stanley did not trick him. The dwagons are in the middle of the fort. He's going to fight and beat the dwagons and warlords.

Ok. But it can be read another way. We'll have to wait to see wha the right reading is.

Reorganization only works in RTS. In turn-based, he's all or nothing at the end of his turn. Everything has to be in place the way he wants before the dwagons have a chance to move.

By reorg, I meant reorg in the larger sense. Ansom still has the column with all its units. And it seems that he and Vinnie have enough move to get the boop out of there. And if not they can call in the Archons to save their boops. But where does that leave the elves and gumps? Ansom's problem seems to be not saving his boop or the coalition but making the most of a bad situation. He could have just called for Jillian and plowed into an adjacent hex and tried to take out 6 leaderless dwagons. Then after move back to the column with Jillian, Vinnie and the remaining flyers leaving the surviving gumps and elves to be cleaned up but Parson on Stanley's next turn. But does Ansom have better? Not does Ansom have an amazing and brilliant counter but just does he have better?

Pretty fun conclusion there. But, in any case, it's the culmination of a well-planned trap against a foe who was overly confident and dismissive of his opponent. Ansom captured/killed would just emphasize all the missteps he took. We want the siege gone because it effectively ends the battle of gobwin knob (which would end the story anyhow)... and...

But that's only round 2 of Ansom vs Parson.

... leads into the successive stories. Remember, Stanley still wants all the Arkentools. He'd only have 2 - the hammer and pliers. There's also all the elements of the coalition to deal with/fight. And all the cities Stanley lost? He'll want Parson to take them back.

Successive leaders of the good guys will be just as successively boring. He can't top Stanley's zaniness or steal our sympathy from Parson or be funnier than Vinnie. In short, the good guy needs to be a straightman.

Simple. Ansom rushed in believing the units were veiled. Him, alone, motionless, just emphasizes the fact that, "Hey, Ansom messed up..." No big battle against the expected warlords and dwagons. No glory. No tricks.

When Ansom messes up woodsy elves and forest gumps die. A mess load of walking dead tree critters is more effective than a lone Ansom, not to mention more "realistic".

But to each his own.

[ag30476]

In essence though, Ansom has nothing to lose. Either he is right and he gets the battle he was looking for against the dwagons, or he is wrong and charges into an empty hex, no worse than his last position. Either way, he confirms that he was right about Stanley's tactics, or confirms that Stanley, or someone else has done some mighty fine manuvering and he is in even bigger trouble than he realizes.

Well if the elves and gumps have only 1 hex move left then charging into an empty hex prevents the battle you could have had from charging into an adjacent hex with 6 dwagons.

I really don't want to get into a rules discussion but it seems that he could have sent in 1 or 2 stacks of elves as he did before. I mean we don't know much of the rules let alone the rules for veiled troops. What does it take to see veiled troops? A bat? A squad of woodsy elves? A full out kamikaze makes-no-sense charge?

I don't get where this perception of Ansom comes from that he is reckless? Remember before this Ansom has cautious. His plan included a feint in the tunnels though he has enough troops to take the seige by force. He did not want to risk Jillian on long range scouting. He and Vinnie don't fully trust her. He sent Webinar to follow her. He followed Vinnie's advice and didn't rescue Jillian himself. He listened to Vinnie when he said the reported victories were not what they seemed. He calculated the risk of attacking the injured dwagons against the risk of not attacking them with his other warlords. He kept Jillian and the Archons in reserve. He sent in lone squads of woodsy elves to save the gumps for the final battle. He sent in a bat before charging into the center hex.

If anything, Ansom is the opposite of Parson. Parson is a daring and innovative strategist. The opposite of that is not recklessness but patience. Stanley is the reckeles one. Ansom is the guy who thinks "If a plan does not plan for problems outside the plan, then it isn't a plan at all." He's the guy who can't "seal the deal".

[ag30476]

And I'd put my gp on Ansom still not having realized someone else is calling the shots for Stanley when he charged the center.

Your gp is no good here. You need shmuckers.

[ag30476]

I'm fairly sure that it would be very advantageous of Ansom to attack right now, if not against the 'A' dwagons, then in trying to wipe out the 'B' ones. Once they get the bonuses from the uncroaked warlords, those dwagons aren't going to be very fun to defend against. But I don't like Ansom, so screw him.

He can't attack the A dwagons. He doesn't know where they are. He could have attacked the B dwagons just to his right but he didn't.

Even if Ansom escapes the trap, he's still vulnerable to dragons within the column--Parson could attack him just like he attacked the siege. However, the Arkenpliers will do fairly well against the uncroaked warlords, meaning that Parson might meet disaster if he sends the warlords out after him like with the siege.
[

That's why Parson attacked the siege.

But it is just a comic strip. No need for people around here to get so antsy about it.

Whose antsy? I'm only on my 5th cup of coffee of the day.

[ag30476]

Which is perhaps the strongest argument against your own assumption. If Ansom knows he's up against something completely new, it's rash of him to charge in without a plan. Per his character sheet, he clearly considers himself a great tactician. Planning is one of his strengths, but humility is a weakness. "if the plan does not plan for problems outside the plan, then it isn't a plan at all." He knows Stanley, and to him Stanley has to be predictable. The only "problem" he didn't plan for was the Dwagons not being there. It's inconcievable to him that his plan was not a plan at all, therefore the Dwagons must be there.

Maybe he had that planned all along as one of plan's plans to plan for problems outside the plan blah blah blah...

Look just because Ansom is cautious does not mean he does not know he's booped. Sometimes you need to plan and sometimes you need to act. At the mo, no plan will get Ansom's boops out of the vice without costing him something. The question is what is the best can he get out of this? Not what will give him a victory but what is his best option? When life gives you crap, you make crap golems, right?

We know he can save his own boop and Vinnie's. We know he could have taken on the 6 dwagons to the right. He's done something else? Something unexpected. Why jump to the conclusion that he's just booping himself even more for no reason? Stanley would do that. Wanda might think that. But Parson cautiously says, "I guess..." I just side on with Lord Hamster assessement.

[sihnfahl]

Ok. But it can be read another way. We'll have to wait to see wha the right reading is.

And how would you read it as?

By reorg, I meant reorg in the larger sense. Ansom still has the column with all its units. And it seems that he and Vinnie have enough move to get the boop out of there.

The column with all its units that he knew would be defenseless against the dwagons on next turn if all the dwagons that hit the stack had a chance to heal. That means that he knew pulling together all the units he took on his attack, and Jillian, and consolidating the units he could... would still result in him losing everything.

And if not they can call in the Archons to save their boops.

And go where? They wouldn't have enough move to get away from the dwagons. Five gwyphons, 3 archons, and 3 warlords against 40+ dwagons?

But where does that leave the elves and gumps?

Untouched! Why would Parson bother with the elves and gumps? They're not a threat to GK. As long as Ansom's with the elves and gumps, Parson has to care about them. Ansom moves off on his own... Parson can ignore the elves and gumps entirely.

But does Ansom have better? Not does Ansom have an amazing and brilliant counter but just does he have better?

He has better, but nothing that can save his boop.

Successive leaders of the good guys will be just as successively boring.

Nice assumption. Different people means different personalities. They could get a smarter warlord, just as Stanley did. They could get a worse one. King Slately would see how Ansom fared and choose someone of a different temperament to counter Stanley. And it would be poor storytelling to have someone just as bad as Ansom around, wouldn't it?

When Ansom messes up woodsy elves and forest gumps die. A mess load of walking dead tree critters is more effective than a lone Ansom, not to mention more "realistic".

Oooh, Ansom rushes into the center hex, messing up his turn and chance!

Oh, wait, they're suddenly dead rushing into an empty hex? How did that happen!? There weren't any dwagons in there!

[ag30476]

And how would you read it as?

Read the original post. I think he means that it's not Stanley he's up against. It's somebody new. Who? He doesn't know. But we don't know all of Erfworld. If Ansom could ally with Charlie and Stanley could go from infantry to King, whose to say Stanley can't find a good commander?

The column with all its units that he knew would be defenseless against the dwagons on next turn if all the dwagons that hit the stack had a chance to heal. That means that he knew pulling together all the units he took on his attack, and Jillian, and consolidating the units he could... would still result in him losing everything.

No. The siege was still vulnerable. Nothing so far suggests that the column as a whole is vulnerable to the dragons. All would indicate, it's the other way around.

And go where? They wouldn't have enough move to get away from the dwagons. Five gwyphons, 3 archons, and 3 warlords against 40+ dwagons?

Ansom and Vinnie can go back to the column. Why didn't Parson, or Stanley for the matter, gather all 40+ dwagons and go to the exact hex where Ansom was in his long thin column and take Ansom and his pliers out to begin with?

Untouched! Why would Parson bother with the elves and gumps? They're not a threat to GK. As long as Ansom's with the elves and gumps, Parson has to care about them. Ansom moves off on his own... Parson can ignore the elves and gumps entirely.

1st elves and gumps are beings in Erfworld and the good guys, Ansom and Vinnie, seem to care about their underlings while the bad guys, Stanley and Wanda, don't.

2nd, they are his only forest units and he may need them later.

3rd, the woodsy elves are a large part of his archers, the guys who got the hitsies on the dwagons.

4th, the gumps would seem pretty capable in a siege even outside their normal terrain.

5th, why let troops die in vain? He could have used the elves and gumps to take out at least some dwagons on the nearest hex on the right pincer.

He has better, but nothing that can save his boop.

Again, he can go back to the column. I don't see why he is more vulnerable in the column now than before.

Nice assumption. Different people means different personalities. They could get a smarter warlord, just as Stanley did. They could get a worse one. King Slately would see how Ansom fared and choose someone of a different temperament to counter Stanley. And it would be poor storytelling to have someone just as bad as Ansom around, wouldn't it?

You have to end the story arc and start a new to introduce the new leader. It's up to the writers of course. But it seems to me the main character and situation right now could continue to be entertaining for some time. Of course some readers might enjoy that. Different people means different personalities.

[CNagy]

I posted this elsewhere, but it seems relevant here. It's the only option I can conceive of that allows Ansom and crew to escape. Sometimes the only way out of a trap is running straight through it.

[ag30476]

I posted this elsewhere, but it seems relevant here. It's the only option I can conceive of that allows Ansom and crew to escape. Sometimes the only way out of a trap is running straight through it.

Good analysis! Thanks!

[sihnfahl]

It's the only option I can conceive of that allows Ansom and crew to escape.

But why run through the stacks of 5 and 6 dwagons when moving through a stack of 4 gets the same result?

No. The siege was still vulnerable. Nothing so far suggests that the column as a whole is vulnerable to the dragons. All would indicate, it's the other way around.

Ansom would presumably want to protect the siege with as many units as he could to minimize his losses. That means pulling all the archers together he could.

Ansom and Vinnie can go back to the column. Why didn't Parson, or Stanley for the matter, gather all 40+ dwagons and go to the exact hex where Ansom was in his long thin column and take Ansom and his pliers out to begin with?

Range. Defenses. Counterattack. And the siege would still exist, which is the greater threat to GK.

why let troops die in vain? He could have used the elves and gumps to take out at least some dwagons on the nearest hex on the right pincer.

First point's pointless. Ansom knows he'll take losses and accepts it.
Second point... in a siege of GK, attacking a city hex, he specifically needs forest units?
Third point... which were pretty useless on their own and irrelevant to an attack on GK since Parson can pull the dwagons behind the walls to protect them and let them heal.
Fourth point - only when led by a warlord. Three dwagons took on 2 full stacks without a dwagon being croaked.
Fifth point - Could have. But he charged in.

Again, he can go back to the column. I don't see why he is more vulnerable in the column now than before.

I pointed it out. In the column, only archers and fliers can protect him. In the forest, archers, fliers and forest units can protect him.

You have to end the story arc and start a new to introduce the new leader. It's up to the writers of course. But it seems to me the main character and situation right now could continue to be entertaining for some time. Of course some readers might enjoy that. Different people means different personalities.

Story arc would have ended anyway. So they get a new leader. One who's actually capable of learning and countering Parson. Ansom... doesn't seem to be too swift on the uptake here.

[Mystyco]

assembling it all, they may get some advantage from the arkenpliers, reducing warlord bonuses that the dragon stacks have...still, i don't think that the move he did was strategically good afterall, he's doing the better move he has left now...gettin fully into a trap and engaging as much as dwagons he can, maybe using some (to us) unknown ability from arkenpliers-vinny's vamp-gumps-woody elves.

thinking about it, i don't think this is possible afterall, maybe parson plan changed all over knowning units could be "veiled"

who knows, he may even leave ansom where he is and take the rest of the units from the army, taking almost no damage and then veiling them out...

or he's simply a little bit upset for not knowning that dwagons could veil, it would have made the things easier (making able even B dwagons to hit-n-run)

well, we'll see :P

[ag30476]

But why run through the stacks of 5 and 6 dwagons when moving through a stack of 4 gets the same result?

We don't know Ansom's reason yet. We don't know how many moves the forest units have. We don't know the exact flanking rules of Erfworld. Moving through the center does not achieve the exact same position as attacking the nearest pincer hex. That we have to wait and see.

Ansom would presumably want to protect the siege with as many units as he could to minimize his losses. That means pulling all the archers together he could.

Ansom and his warlords agreed that in their current air/ground configuration they could not defend the seige units effectively. Hence they, not just Ansom, decided to counterattack.

Range. Defenses. Counterattack. And the siege would still exist, which is the greater threat to GK.

He still has all those to defend his boop plus Jillian, her flyers and the Archons.

First point's pointless. Ansom knows he'll take losses and accepts it.

He'll take losses that make sense. He's shown that. Stanley will talk losses that don't make rational sense. He's shown that. Again, it's out of character for Ansom to take losses without gaining something back.

Second point... in a siege of GK, attacking a city hex, he specifically needs forest units?

He's not at the city yet. And what if Stanley does something again that needs forest units to counter. What if Stanley escpaes Gobwin Knob. Ansom is the man with the plan for the unexpected and all that.

Third point... which were pretty useless on their own and irrelevant to an attack on GK since Parson can pull the dwagons behind the walls to protect them and let them heal.

Huh? Didn't you just say Ansom needs archers? The woodsy elves are archers.

Fourth point - only when led by a warlord. Three dwagons took on 2 full stacks without a dwagon being croaked.

Wha? The dwagons took 2 stacks of elves not gumps. Ents...er gumps are big and strong though made of wood. They are at least useful in certain seige situations, no? But whether or not elves or gumps need warlords to be effective, warlords is something is not lacking in.

Fifth point - Could have. But he charged in.

Not disputing that. I'm disputing his reason. Recklessness is out of chracter for him. But we'll have to wait to see who is right.

I pointed it out. In the column, only archers and fliers can protect him. In the forest, archers, fliers and forest units can protect him.

I'm not a math-o-mancer but it seems Ansom's got more than enough protection in the column with himself, his carpet, his pliers, the remaining get-their-hitsies-archers and slow-fliers still with the column, Vinnie and his bats, and Jillian and her gwiffons and the Archons who were ready to get back to the column this turn.

Story arc would have ended anyway. So they get a new leader. One who's actually capable of learning and countering Parson. Ansom... doesn't seem to be too swift on the uptake here.

It's not that it ends or the ending itself. One can guess the overall story arc for at least some of the characters. It's how you end the story arc. I, personally, would like to see more than a 1-2 punch knockout. And it seems to me that as characters go, Ansom is not that bad. And given what's been revealed (and not revealed) so far, I don't think Ansom's story arc is over. But Ansom can't be as sympathetic or charismatic to the readers as Parson or Stanley. He's the anti-anti-hero....the good guy...to Parson's anti-hero and Stanley's villian.