Sometimes the only way out of a trap

[Krellen]

But Parson cautiously says, "I guess..." I just side on with Lord Hamster assessement.

I'm pretty certain that was Stanley saying 'I guess...'. Look at that dialogue box, then look at those in the next panel, where what is clearly Parson says 'Waitwaitwait'. "I guess..." has rounded corners, while "Waitwaitwait" has squared corners. Also, conversationally, saying "I guess...." and then "waitwaitwait. Time out." don't logically follow. It makes far more sense for "I guess..." to come from a third speaker than for both to be made by the same person.

Another assumption that I think is poorly made. You're wanting to think the best of Ansom. Me? I find the guy annoying. I look forward to him being crushed. And I consider myself a bit of a paladin, as the avatar indicates.

[Scientivore]

I'm pretty certain that was Stanley saying 'I guess...'. [snip]

That was Parson. Erfworlders use the Gorilla Milkshake font which has the top and bottom lines on the capital 'I'. Earthlings in Erfworld use Maiandra GD which doesn't.

FWIW, I like Ansom enough to keep on using him for my avatar, even when I make a new one. Yet, I'm certain that he doesn't have any great plan right now. He thinks that Stanley is stupid (and is apparently correct in that belief). It naturally follows that if it looks like Stanley did something clever then his eyes must be deceiving him.

Just look at the limp-wristed way that he's holding the Arkenpliers in the next-to-last panel. He's stunned (again).

[*mon]

Charging into the center of the unled dragons, pins them down, forcing them to attack him. He's sacrificing himself to protect the column.

[jindra34]

That was Parson. Erfworlders use the Gorilla Milkshake font which has the top and bottom lines on the capital 'I'. Earthlings in Erfworld use Maiandra GD which doesn't.

FWIW, I like Ansom enough to keep on using him for my avatar, even when I make a new one. Yet, I'm certain that he doesn't have any great plan right now. He thinks that Stanley is stupid (and is apparently correct in that belief). It naturally follows that if it looks like Stanley did something clever then his eyes must be deceiving him.

Just look at the limp-wristed way that he's holding the Arkenpliers in the next-to-last panel. He's stunned (again).

Stunned?! now thats an understatement. he's boopified.

[Krellen]

That was Parson. Erfworlders use the Gorilla Milkshake font which has the top and bottom lines on the capital 'I'. Earthlings in Erfworld use Maiandra GD which doesn't.

Fair enough. The two fonts look too close to me to easily differentiate, though when there are large blocks of them close together I know there's a difference. I certainly haven't studied them enough to know their names or make claims like this, so I defer.

Still, this makes Parson talk in a manner that seems odd to me. But then again, I don't know anyone whose whole life is dedicated to gaming.

[Scientivore]

Sorry if I gave the impression that I identified them by sight. As much as I like fonts, I'm not that skilled (yet). I only know what they are because pclips told us.

[mport2004]

I think that ansom will get taken out of the picture and the invaders will use summon ultimate hero/leader and get parsons friends.
This way parsons game is reversed where as he was going to put his friends in the position he is in now they are in the position he would have had when they were playing only now its real.

[Monstershach]

maybe a bit weird but why not^^

Vinny realised that there´s another warlord in team stanley. And he is acting as if this "fact" is true but he cant know 100%
So Vinny became very careful.
I think Ansom doesnt realise the fact of another warlord in team stanley.
In this comic he´s starting to think about it. "stanley could never make such a good trick."
soooo... you can say he still doesnt belive that this is such a "shrewd trick" BUT in the panels 5 and 6 he definitely acknowledges vinny that this is a very good one"
But he is still preparing the attack "battle formations !"
Then there´s the discuission between stanley pason and the lady (forgot the name don´t kill me x_X)
the waitwaitwait.... refers to the discusion of those three.
Imo was this something like "wait why havent you freaky creatures told me earlier that we can veil our units !!!! Our trap would have had much more boop." said from Parson.
Ansom is lone in that picture because he is preparing himself for his destiny.
That he could die in this battle.
Or this was the turning point. parson didnt know of veiling units and that´s why ansom survives this battle or can achive somethin in it. But Ansom cant know that his destiny turned good at this moment (the lone ansom in the woods)

To the continue of Ansoms attack:
I think Ansom knows that this is a trap and he cant forgo this trap except with an heavy loss of his amount of units. Or other difficulties that would appear.
Maybe he is following the words of "his old warfare tactics teacher" :
"You know it´s a trap, you cant forgo it. then rush into it, destroy as many units as you can. Maybe you get an advantage. and if its just a small one.
your big advantage: you know that it´s a trap and you know how it works.
so you can defend yourself proper. According to the situation."

if you believe in the 2nd option, then insert "continue of Ansoms attack" here and add that the luck is on Ansom´s side at this moment.
xD very confusing, but as many others said: we dont know what Ansom has in mind.

Or he dies and another warlord will appear. this would be another option i definitely like. Parson > all so one day the ultimate Parson beating Warlord will come.
Time will tell...

[Tirian]

I'm pretty certain that was Stanley saying 'I guess...'. Look at that dialogue box, then look at those in the next panel, where what is clearly Parson says 'Waitwaitwait'. "I guess..." has rounded corners, while "Waitwaitwait" has squared corners. Also, conversationally, saying "I guess...." and then "waitwaitwait. Time out." don't logically follow. It makes far more sense for "I guess..." to come from a third speaker than for both to be made by the same person.

What is odd to me is the quotation marks:

1: I guess... (speech bubble)
2a: "Waitwaitwait. (non-speech bubble)
2b: Time out." (non-speech bubble)
3: We can veil our troops? (speech bubble)

My theory is that it is all Parson, but the middle one was unspoken. That is, Parson started to speak, interrupted himself with a ZOMG thought, and then started to speak on a new track.

[Scientivore]

Looking on the previous page and the page before that, the square corners with text in quotes appear to indicate when someone is speaking off panel in a completely different place. For example, that format is used when Parson is in the situation room explaining the trap during a panel showing the dwagons over the lake, and before that when Vinny is talking to Ansom during a panel showing his doombat in the empty hex.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I think those last couple of panels are just there to introduce Parson to a new element...that they can use their eyemancers offensively and in subterfuge as well as in an intelligence and C&C role.

Veiled units could be just awesome...leading the enemy into charging a weakened stack only to find a perfectly healthy stack of stuff directly in front of it that starts to say hello in a bad bad way.

I think it also just goes to show how much of Erfworld Parson has yet to learn that everyone else just takes for granted.

[SteveMB]

Looking on the previous page and the page before that, the square corners with text in quotes appear to indicate when someone is speaking off panel in a completely different place. For example, that format is used when Parson is in the situation room explaining the trap during a panel showing the dwagons over the lake, and before that when Vinny is talking to Ansom during a panel showing his doombat in the empty hex.

It could also be a different time, as in panel 54/3, where the image is the watch recess in Parson's Stupid Meal toy and the dialog is Parson speaking to Sizemore. Based on the phrasing ("It just looked like a sleeve of hard plastic til I saw..." [emphasis added]), the image is a flashback to the moment Parson first noticed this.

[SMDVogrin]

I pointed it out. In the column, only archers and fliers can protect him. In the forest, archers, fliers and forest units can protect him.

This is just... wrong.

Forest units can attack Dwagons in woods because they can MOVE in woods. They don't have any super-secret anti-dwagon powers. They can attack Dwagons in woods just like NORMAL units can attack Dwagons in non-restricted terrain.

You have it exactly backwards. In the forest, ONLY fliers and forest units can protect him. In the column, EVERYONE can protect him.

[Freerefill]

I've mentioned it before but it's worthy mentioning here what with all the Ansom boopification talk going on.. Especially since this comic more or less clinches it..

The Alliance, Team Ansom, the "good guys" fighting and winning the good fight, yes, with the arrival of Parson, they were booped six ways from Sunday.

Ansom himself, on the other hand, is perfectly safe, for two very good reasons. First, he's got all those forest units around him. Can he withstand an all-out attack with 49 healthy dwagons? Boop no. Ok, well, maybe. I'm not sure. Those three dwagons laid some pretty heavy devastation before. Tide turns with those gumps? Dunno. No way to tell unless we had some numbers to crunch. There's evidence that hey couldn't survive (doubtful tone of other warlord in the alliance), there's evidence that he could (logic that he wouldn't rush into the Donut of Doom without sufficient numbers), but the reason he won't is that Parson needs to win the war, not just the battle. He could take the Arkenpliers, but he won't. He'll loose too many dwagons before he does. That much is obvious. Then we have Panels 8 and 9. As predicted, Tool wants to rush in and snatch the Arkenpliers and doesn't care about the consequences. Fortunately for Parson, Ansom's move interrupted Tool, otherwise Parson's counter-argument would probably (or potentially, given Parson's adaptation to dealing with Tool) have ticked Tool off, just a bit. Parson saying "Or we could capture-", aside from being yet another brilliant literary work by the authors to keep us on the edge of our seats (damn them and their talent) obviously indicates that Parson is not aiming for Ansom or the Arkenpliers.

So yeah, Ansom is just fine. Words cannot express his staggerment and horror of what has happened to him, but other than that, sound as a pound.

Of course, one can only wonder.. capture what? What else is there? Some vital item that we haven't been made aware of yet? If they didn't have hats then their communication would be destroyed, but can the Eyemancers track items? A key figure, like the Archons? There is a history between Stanley and Charlie that could be expanded on. Capture Jillian again, forcing Ansom to make another move? Seems unlikely, but forcing Ansom to move has been a theme here. Capture another city, forcing Ansom to about-face and reclaim it? It'll give Parson time to re-think and learn, but ditto for Ansom. Capture the other leaders of the Alliance? How protected are they, how vital are they?

And while I'm here I might as well, in my somewhat nauseous and weakened due to a panic attack state, again bring up the topic of the so-called "Arkendish" and add another observation to it: the Arkentools are artifacts, which according to Sizemore, are magical items specifically created by the gods. Magic items are specifically created by mortals/humans/Erfworldians/whathaveyou. The Arkendish certainly appears to be a computer generated item, but perhaps it's not an Arkentool, but instead, simply an artifact. We haven't seen any other artifacts (or if we have, they haven't been pointed out) so it could be that all artifacts are or will be computer generated, and that just so happens to include the Arkentools. Kind of a flimsy argument, given that it never says specifically that artifacts were created by the gods and I'm sure a bunch of other things but oh well. If it makes even one person ponder the argument, working their brain, making new connections, and in general becoming a more intelligent individual, then it's worth it to type.

[Cywar]

hmmm...
Ansom should know that there are no Dwagons in the center Hex:

If there are Dwagons in the center hex, then there is no point in veiling them, while at the same time surrounding them by Hexes full of Dwagonswhich are plain visible.. Veiling is just useful to hide something. What's the point in hiding something and at the same time telling where it is hidden? So Ansom really knows he fell for a trap. So i agree, probably he has something in mind.

[VariaVespasa]

The optimists keep forgetting that Parson knows everything about all the units various basic strengths, their stats, their locations etc. He did NOT set all this up, knowing all that, without covering any possible conventional counterattack. Ansom can NOT fight his way out of the trap, or significantly mitigate it. That would require that Parson made serious amateur mistakes. With the amount of info he has this just isnt reasonable to believe. There is NO WAY AT ALL that Ansom survives the next turn UNLESS Parson lets him because he's going after something else (which is possible, he may think the seige is more important, and/or the fliers forinstance, or because he's just come up with a new better plan due to learning about veiling), or the arkenpliers throw a monkey-wrench into his plans, or if Stanley interferes, or if a new, previously unknown special ability is revealed to the readers (like the dwagons over the lake). Those are the ONLY ways Ansom survives.

Its not a matter of "Ansom should have known the center hex was empty", its a matter of "We've broken into the platter, Stanley is just veiling his dwagons in a last ditch attempt to fool us into not attacking. The fool, we see through this trick, and attack anyway!".

I believe it was marbit archers who got their hitsies on the dwagons during their attack on the seige, not woodsy elves.

[Demented]

There may be no point in veiling them from our point of view... but from Ansom's point of view, Stanley is stupid. Stupid enough that Stanley may in fact try veiling units that he's held inside a dwagon fort. Knowing Stanley, this may not be all that inaccurate; Stanley IS that stupid. Thus, given that knowledge, does it really seem all that outrageous that Ansom would charge guns-loaded into the center hex?

After all, if Ansom sent a single warlord in there to see if there really are veiled units, and there turn out to be, he's wasted a warlord on a scouting mission. That's the kind of risk that doesn't ever pan out well for you in the end.

Better that he charge in full and ready for the battle to come.
...Which also happens to be the battle that's not there to fight.


As much as people are arguing that Ansom has some kind of trick up his sleeve... The way his expression changes, and the lines he says, I really can't see Ansom as thinking of anything other than "Yes, it looks like a pretty shrewd trick, but it's not!"

Besides, in the second to last panel, the idea of Parson and Ansom thinking the exact same words ("Wait wait wait. Time out.") for completely different reasons is just too much comedic irony to give up willingly.

[sihnfahl]

Parson saying "Or we could capture-", aside from being yet another brilliant literary work by the authors to keep us on the edge of our seats (damn them and their talent) obviously indicates that Parson is not aiming for Ansom or the Arkenpliers... Of course, one can only wonder.. capture what? What else is there? Some vital item that we haven't been made aware of yet? ...

I think you're misdirecting a bit. He'd prefer to capture Ansom, not kill him.

Killing Ansom would be unnecessary and... I'm getting the feeling it's not in Parson's personality that he'd want to kill someone with a name. He's pretty flippant with the standard units, but nameds? He's almost sympathizing with them.

Capture another city

Why do that? He'd waste resources and lower GK's defense. Hardly a good move when the Alliance is now 2 turns or less away from GK.

Capture the other leaders of the Alliance? How protected are they, how vital are they?

They're warlords. Representatives of the Leaders. Presumably they'd be pretty well-protected. It's also a question of location. Sure, the dwagons could go out of their way to attack and capture them... but then, how would they get back on the same turn? They might not have that kind of move.

[ag30476]

You're wanting to think the best of Ansom.

I want the fight to be interesting. If Parson is the greatest warlord ever, I want him to prove it. Otherwise, I kind of loose interest in Parson and the figh itself. And you don't prove it by sucker punching a sap. Good heroes make great villians.

Me? I find the guy annoying. I look forward to him being crushed. And I consider myself a bit of a paladin, as the avatar indicates.

[/QUOTE]
You're supposed to find the guy annoying. He's the opponent to our hero Parson, the sick in the mud to Stanley's fun, and he's even trying to meddle in the lust between Jillian and Wanda.

[ag30476]

I think that ansom will get taken out of the picture and the invaders will use summon ultimate hero/leader and get parsons friends.
This way parsons game is reversed where as he was going to put his friends in the position he is in now they are in the position he would have had when they were playing only now its real.

Er...why? I kind of like my anti-hero's to be unique. I mean why not go all out and just summon Parson-worlders until the shmuckers run out?

[ag30476]

The optimists keep forgetting that Parson knows everything about all the units various basic strengths, their stats, their locations etc.

He does not know everything. For ex, veiling.

He did NOT set all this up, knowing all that, without covering any possible conventional counterattack. Ansom can NOT fight his way out of the trap, or significantly mitigate it.

Again, why must Ansom do a brilliant counterstroke? He can make the best of it.

I believe it was marbit archers who got their hitsies on the dwagons during their attack on the seige, not woodsy elves.

Archers get hitsies regardless of whether they are elves or marbits.

[ag30476]

The Alliance, Team Ansom, the "good guys" fighting and winning the good fight, yes, with the arrival of Parson, they were booped six ways from Sunday.

Yes but how are they gonna get booped? The story is in the getting booped not the final boopification

Ansom himself, on the other hand, is perfectly safe, for two very good reasons. First, he's got all those forest units around him....

Er...no. Ansom is personally safe because he can escape back to the main column at any time. The question at the mo is: is Ansom going to loose the woodsy elves, gumps and siege units on Stanley's next turn?

[CNagy]

The optimists keep forgetting that Parson knows everything about all the units various basic strengths, their stats, their locations etc. He did NOT set all this up, knowing all that, without covering any possible conventional counterattack. Ansom can NOT fight his way out of the trap, or significantly mitigate it. That would require that Parson made serious amateur mistakes. With the amount of info he has this just isnt reasonable to believe. There is NO WAY AT ALL that Ansom survives the next turn UNLESS Parson lets him because he's going after something else (which is possible, he may think the seige is more important, and/or the fliers forinstance, or because he's just come up with a new better plan due to learning about veiling), or the arkenpliers throw a monkey-wrench into his plans, or if Stanley interferes, or if a new, previously unknown special ability is revealed to the readers (like the dwagons over the lake). Those are the ONLY ways Ansom survives.

Its not a matter of "Ansom should have known the center hex was empty", its a matter of "We've broken into the platter, Stanley is just veiling his dwagons in a last ditch attempt to fool us into not attacking. The fool, we see through this trick, and attack anyway!".

I believe it was marbit archers who got their hitsies on the dwagons during their attack on the seige, not woodsy elves.

Even with perfect intelligence, there is no such thing as the perfect plan. Do we assume that Parson used his intel to make a plan that had no chance of being thwarted? No, because if he wanted a foolproof plan he would have placed the platter further out, his wounded forces would have been untouchable, and he could have hit the column once more on the way home (pretty much the original plan.)

By choosing the route of deception, Parson has accepted a greater amount of risk in return for a greater amount of gain. His dragons were able to push further into the column than they would if the platter formation were further away. At the cost of three Dwagons, he was able to trick Ansom into maneuvering a nice-sized force away from the column, and use up most of its move.

He has also shaken Ansom's long-held beliefs that Stanley's Leadership corps has no remaining talent; which is a very good thing, because a person cannot be smarter than he actually is (or his advisors are,) and thus we can safely assume that Parson will always have a tactic that he is not ready for. At the same time, Ansom would likely begin to second-guess everything, even the things that he should not second-guess. The end result is that simple but effective tactics are back on the list of Parson's options, as the Ansom pendulum swings from "This is too clever for Stanley" to "This is too obvious for Stanley's Warlord."

Lastly, we know that Jillian, a number of Gwiffons, and the Archons have enough move to make it to the center hex--moving around the platter to go through the open path. If Ansom can make one more move and engage a hex of Dwagons close to the column, Jillian and crew can aid in that battle and might be able to bring the Warlords back into the column. We know Warlords can switch mounts in the middle of a turn; Parson's plan relied on it. What we don't know are the exact numbers. Does Jillian's group have exactly enough move to make it to the center, and thus not quite enough move to get back to the column if they take a shortcut? Do they have more than enough? They are Ansom's ace in the hole, the one that we know about anyway, and they are his one chance to escape this situation (that we know of anyway,) precisely because we do not know the numbers and thus cannot rule it out.

[MedPig]

I posted this elsewhere, but it seems relevant here. It's the only option I can conceive of that allows Ansom and crew to escape. Sometimes the only way out of a trap is running straight through it.

The military teaches that if you are ambushed, turn into it, and charge. Yes, you will take losses, but human instinct is to go to ground, and they will pick you off. Charge, and suddenly, they are dealing with a potential hand-to-hand combat, or worse yet, bayonets. (Picture what taking one of THEM would feel like? Ouch.)

Ansom might be looking for a fast win, and in the words of the 40K folks, an over-run, putting him closer to the column. (Of course, he needs not to run out of move, or hit points, but that's another story...)

"If it was REALLY dumb, but worked, then it wasn't that dumb after all. Just make sure it works, or you look REALLY dumb..."

[Krellen]

I want the fight to be interesting. If Parson is the greatest warlord ever, I want him to prove it. Otherwise, I kind of loose interest in Parson and the figh itself. And you don't prove it by sucker punching a sap. Good heroes make great villians.

You operate under the false assumption that Ansom and the seige of Gobwin Knob is the story. It's not. Rob has said so.

Gobwin Knob is only Part 1. Even if Ansom is taken out of the picture, the story doesn't end - nor, for that matter, does the siege end. Ansom isn't an "end boss".

Besides, in a lot of TBS, the named signature guy of the other side who you have to "defeat" to win a scenario doesn't die or get captured, but somehow escapes - by surrenderring, fleeing the battlefield, or even Deus Ex Machina. It's just how things work.

[ag30476]

You operate under the false assumption that Ansom and the seige of Gobwin Knob is the story. It's not. Rob has said so.

Gobwin Knob is only Part 1. Even if Ansom is taken out of the picture, the story doesn't end - nor, for that matter, does the siege end. Ansom isn't an "end boss".

When did I say that Ansom was the end boss? He's the "boss" of the coalition of this "Battle of Gobwin Knob". Who says that me? No. Stanley does. Parson does. That's why they try to capture him and take the Arkenpliers. It's the Arkenpliers Stanley wants anyway.

If another earlier thread, I had said the main "end boss" for Parson is Stanley. Obviously. Parson will win. He has to win. We want him to win. He's our hero. But he shouldn't win easily because then he's just a Mary Sue character. And he can't win and let Stanley win because Stanley is the just plain evil, cute and funny Erfworld evil but evil nonetheless.

Besides, in a lot of TBS, the named signature guy of the other side who you have to "defeat" to win a scenario doesn't die or get captured, but somehow escapes - by surrenderring, fleeing the battlefield, or even Deus Ex Machina. It's just how things work.

That's a game. This is a story. Look, Part I, the Battle for Gobwin Known has been set up for how long now, 61 pages? You start caring about the characters. You like them. Tension builds. Oops! Sorry. All gone. How many pages to introduce Parson's new antogonist and build him up? Another 10? OK if you like that...

[atteSmythe]

And I'd put my shmuckers* on Ansom still not having realized someone else is calling the shots for Stanley when he charged the center.

That's my take on Erf67. Ansom is stuck on one thought, "Stanley couldn't possibly have come up with this trap."

If it's truly impossible, then one of two things in the above statement is wrong: Either it isn't a trap, or Stanley didn't come up with it. Ansom figured the former, and I think the latter hadn't even occurred to him.

[VariaVespasa]

CNagy- Jillian is not a factor in foiling Parson. Her stacking with Ansom is an obvious possible move when Ansom realises the trap. If that would be sufficient to make Ansom unkillable then the whole trap would be a waste of time because it would be so easily counterable, UNLESS Ansom is not the real target. And there is no attack that she can launch that can break Ansoms out for the same reason. She also cannot have sufficient move to evacuate Ansom this turn unless, again, Ansom isnt Parsons real target, OR Parson is getting sneaky about the nature of his attack on Ansom. Jillian is unreliable. It may be that Parsons plan involves Jillian evacuating Ansom and his pliers and then being influenced to take Ansom to a particular spot so that Parson can gank him with only a few troops with him, rather than having to attack that full huge woodsy stack (which may mean unacceptable casualties) to get at him, and in the process free up enough dwagons to finish wiping the seige and do some general damage into the bargain. That would get him 1-2 enemy warlords (maybe more), the 5 fastest enemy fliers, the pliers and the seige, all in one nice package. Its a thought, anyway.

But any way you slice it, the only possible risk to Parsons plan was Ansom not attacking the weak hex. Once Ansom did that there is no reasonable way for Parsons plan to fail (for Ansom-related reasons, that is) without Parson having made a mistake, or being ambushed by unknown enemy abilities, or getting 1 or more really bad dice rolls (if Erfworld has dice rolls or the equivalent). The tactical position is just too clear to permit any other kind of failure.

Of course, bad dice rolls do happen. I once based my entire strategy as Germany in a War In Europe game (a biiiiiiig WW2 wargame that takes 500+ hours to play) on a surprise attack on Turkey that would have fatally compromised the Russian position later in the game that had a 5 in 6 chance of success and could possibly have enabled the Germans to actually win the war. You know how the dice fell... :P So it can happen. But that kind of thing doesnt translate well to a story, so I doubt it will be used here.

[Azarkon]

I'd just like to throw this thought into the mix.
It's doubtful that he started moving toward the rear of the dragons with out thinking about how to deal with the remaining dragons in the ring. If he didn't have a plan for that, this was a suicide run and probably wouldn't have gone himself since that meant giving the pliers to Stan, which isn't worth croaking the dragons and warlords.

[Mystyco]

WAIT WAIT WAIT...capturing?
who talked about capturing? i want to see ansom's blood everywhere on the next 2-3 pages and wanna hear some really creepy and uber evil warcry from parson gettin a full stack of dwagons to @$$-rape the ansom's colum for good...

lol, that capturing idea may lead to torture as well xD