Sometimes the only way out of a trap

[sihnfahl]

I'd just like to throw this thought into the mix.
It's doubtful that he started moving toward the rear of the dragons with out thinking about how to deal with the remaining dragons in the ring. If he didn't have a plan for that, this was a suicide run and probably wouldn't have gone himself since that meant giving the pliers to Stan, which isn't worth croaking the dragons and warlords.

Oh, you mean like keeping a warlord, 3 archons and 5 strong gwyphons in reserve and ready to move in if need be?

[CNagy]

CNagy- Jillian is not a factor in foiling Parson. Her stacking with Ansom is an obvious possible move when Ansom realises the trap. If that would be sufficient to make Ansom unkillable then the whole trap would be a waste of time because it would be so easily counterable, UNLESS Ansom is not the real target. And there is no attack that she can launch that can break Ansoms out for the same reason. She also cannot have sufficient move to evacuate Ansom this turn unless, again, Ansom isnt Parsons real target, OR Parson is getting sneaky about the nature of his attack on Ansom. Jillian is unreliable. It may be that Parsons plan involves Jillian evacuating Ansom and his pliers and then being influenced to take Ansom to a particular spot so that Parson can gank him with only a few troops with him, rather than having to attack that full huge woodsy stack (which may mean unacceptable casualties) to get at him, and in the process free up enough dwagons to finish wiping the seige and do some general damage into the bargain. That would get him 1-2 enemy warlords (maybe more), the 5 fastest enemy fliers, the pliers and the seige, all in one nice package. Its a thought, anyway.

You are making a huge assumption. You are assuming that everyone's starting positions and the makeup of the terrain was absolutely perfect for Parson's plan. Can you not realize that factors outside of your (the Warlord's) control force the plan to be "as good as possible" rather than "perfect?" Or do you presume that if Ansom had a possible escape from the platter, that Parson would not have even bothered in the first place? You assume that Jillian would have any say as to where Ansom evacuates-- unless she is leading his gwiffon by the reins. Besides, we know that Wanda's control over Jillian is not so direct, she couldn't be manipulated into directly betraying him. I find it more likely that Jillian has that prisoner in love with captor complex.

Parson is making due with what he has. He is choosing the best possible tactics that he can. He needed 7 hexes of heavy forest, and he used the one in the best position. That does not mean that it is in the perfect position. Based on this, we know that Jillian and crew could reach the center hex through the planned attack route. Any approach aside from behind the platter itself requires at least 3 extra hexes to get around the formation and into the center through the rear. The column is three hexes away from the 5-stacks and 6-stack of Dwagons. Thus, according to what we've been shown, Jillian and crew would have sufficient move to get to one of those stacks, and then back to the column. The only chance that they couldn't would be if they were coming in from the weak side of the platter... but they aren't, that area is still fogged.

[VariaVespasa]

You are making a huge assumption. You are assuming that everyone's starting positions and the makeup of the terrain was absolutely perfect for Parson's plan. Can you not realize that factors outside of your (the Warlord's) control force the plan to be "as good as possible" rather than "perfect?" Or do you presume that if Ansom had a possible escape from the platter, that Parson would not have even bothered in the first place? You assume that Jillian would have any say as to where Ansom evacuates-- unless she is leading his gwiffon by the reins. Besides, we know that Wanda's control over Jillian is not so direct, she couldn't be manipulated into directly betraying him. I find it more likely that Jillian has that prisoner in love with captor complex.

Parson is making due with what he has. He is choosing the best possible tactics that he can. He needed 7 hexes of heavy forest, and he used the one in the best position. That does not mean that it is in the perfect position. Based on this, we know that Jillian and crew could reach the center hex through the planned attack route. Any approach aside from behind the platter itself requires at least 3 extra hexes to get around the formation and into the center through the rear. The column is three hexes away from the 5-stacks and 6-stack of Dwagons. Thus, according to what we've been shown, Jillian and crew would have sufficient move to get to one of those stacks, and then back to the column. The only chance that they couldn't would be if they were coming in from the weak side of the platter... but they aren't, that area is still fogged.

Of course I realise that. But in point of fact I *DO* presume that if Ansom had a possible escape (that doesnt involve an ability that Parson doesnt know about) from the platter that Parson wouldnt have bothered IF Ansom was the target of all this. Parson has a very limited amount of time (turns) before the opposing army reaches GK. He CANNOT waste that time taking half-baked potshots at the enemy leadership if they have chances to escape. He knows Ansom isnt stupid, so relying on him to miss a reasonable chance to escape WOULD be stupid. Guaranteed destruction of key enemy elements (like their siege) is a much much better and proper use of his limited time and resources. That does NOT preclude Parson setting up his attack on the siege in such a way as to try to lure Ansom into making a mistake on the off chance that Ansom gets careless and makes himself vulnerable. If that happens then Parson would be prepared to take advantage of it, but it cannot be the primary goal. It must be a secondary goal, or its a foolish and low-odds risk. If Ansom is the primary target, then he cannot have an easily calculable escape once he's made the predicted move (attacking the weak hex).

Jillian- I dont know how such things work, it may be she would have to double him up on her mount to evac him in time in which case she would have the reigns. But primarily I was thinking- no, she cant be made to directly betray Ansom, but she CAN be influenced in what she does; say, influencing her to pick one escape route over another, forinstance.

Jillian hasnt moved yet, so the fact that those hexes are still fogged means nothing, with regards to where Jillian started the turn. Jillian could be any direction from the platter, although I seem to recall a previous strip may have said or suggested which direction she was.

Make DO. For the love of god, its "make DO", not "make due"....

Parson knows Jillian is out there, how strong her troops arem where they are and how fast they are. How she is either part of his plan or is incapable of materially affecting his plan has not yet been shown in the strip. I'm assuming it will be, in due course.

[CNagy]

Of course I realise that. But in point of fact I *DO* presume that if Ansom had a possible escape (that doesnt involve an ability that Parson doesnt know about) from the platter that Parson wouldnt have bothered IF Ansom was the target of all this.

Parson would not be the perfect Warlord if he did not take any risks. Furthermore, Parson would not be the perfect Warlord if he did not have contingency plans. Despite the fact that I believe that Ansom should not be the target, and that it is a tactical mistake to go after him rather than the siege units, I'll play the Devil's Advocate here. What do you suppose that the current plan is actually a fork? You know, threaten two pieces with the same piece, and force the opponent to choose one or the other? Parson might want Ansom, and Tool might demand it, but since the terrain and situation might not be perfect, Parson can only do so much and hope that Ansom doesn't discover an escape. If Ansom does escape, then Parson's units are still in position to wreck the siege.

Parson has a very limited amount of time (turns) before the opposing army reaches GK. He CANNOT waste that time taking half-baked potshots at the enemy leadership if they have chances to escape. He knows Ansom isnt stupid, so relying on him to miss a reasonable chance to escape WOULD be stupid.

A good strategist doesn't rely on the opponent, but you give the impression that Parson has some great master plan here instead of several viable plans that he can choose from depending on Ansom's actions.

Guaranteed destruction of key enemy elements (like their siege) is a much much better and proper use of his limited time and resources. That does NOT preclude Parson setting up his attack on the siege in such a way as to try to lure Ansom into making a mistake on the off chance that Ansom gets careless and makes himself vulnerable. If that happens then Parson would be prepared to take advantage of it, but it cannot be the primary goal. It must be a secondary goal, or its a foolish and low-odds risk. If Ansom is the primary target, then he cannot have an easily calculable escape once he's made the predicted move (attacking the weak hex).

And if there are no primary targets, only targets of opportunity? Again, I would hit the siege. Then again, Parson stated in a Klog that he felt magic would be the answer winning the battle for Gobwin Knob, so capturing an artifact might rate more importance to him than wrecking the siege. Personally, I'd be content to let Ansom keep the artifact since he isn't attuned to it. A big part of this argument is the fact that you state something isn't possible when you have no knowledge that it couldn't happen aside from your assumptions. You state that it would be a waste of time if Ansom could escape, despite the fact that he drew archers away from the column which would make hitting the siege easier. I also see a lot of back-pedaling, a larger number of "if" clauses where before you seemed very dead certain of what would and would not happen (which, I might add, sparked this entire line of discussion).

Jillian- I dont know how such things work, it may be she would have to double him up on her mount to evac him in time in which case she would have the reigns. But primarily I was thinking- no, she cant be made to directly betray Ansom, but she CAN be influenced in what she does; say, influencing her to pick one escape route over another, forinstance.

Jillian is bringing Gwiffons with her, and they can serve as mounts. Unless they all die in battle, there is no reason that the other Warlords can't mount the unmounted Gwiffons. There wouldn't be a whole lot of choice in what escape route to take, either; it would be a bee-line for the column.

Jillian hasnt moved yet, so the fact that those hexes are still fogged means nothing, with regards to where Jillian started the turn. Jillian could be any direction from the platter, although I seem to recall a previous strip may have said or suggested which direction she was.

She was released closer to Gobwin Knob. Unless the column isn't actually moving towards Gobwin Knob, she is either closer to one end or the other of the column, which puts her nowhere on the other side of the platter.

Make DO. For the love of god, its "make DO", not "make due"....

I have this habit, when I type fast, of replacing words. If this were an academic paper, I would reread, spot the error, and change it. Because this is a forum for a webcomic, I hope you'll forgive me when I don't give each post the polish that my writing normally receives.

Parson knows Jillian is out there, how strong her troops arem where they are and how fast they are. How she is either part of his plan or is incapable of materially affecting his plan has not yet been shown in the strip. I'm assuming it will be, in due course.

Here is the crux of the argument. You seem unwilling to acknowledge that Parson might not be able to account for every factor, and you hold steadfast to the idea that he has one plan. This is the problem with your line of thinking:

--Parson needed seven hexes of Heavy Forest. He could not create his own Heavy Forest, so he had to choose the best grouping that the terrain could offer him.
--Because of where he is forced to place the platter, he cannot choose which enemy units can and cannot reach the seven hexes. He can look at which of Ansom's units are capable, and decide from there whether or not it is worth it to attempt the subterfuge.
--After determining the risk, and the chance of success, Parson could have either decided that it was an acceptable risk for the possible gain, or that it was not. He decided that it was.
--Attempting the subterfuge does not hinder the original plan. If Ansom escapes, Parson still hits the siege which now has fewer archers (the forest-capable ones) guarding it. If Ansom does not, Parson has taken out the head Warlord of the coalition and could probably still hit some of the siege. No matter what happens, Parson scores a major victory.

A great strategist does not rely on his opponent. A great strategist has multiple viable plans, all with important targets and goals. Thus, he can implement a successful strategy regardless of what the opponent does.

As I continued to type this reply, I realized there was a simple explanation that would have sufficed. You state that Jillian cannot save Ansom. You have no proof to back that up, at all. Nothing that is the least bit conclusive. I have not stated that Jillian absolutely can save Ansom, only that it is a possibility, and the only possibility that I see barring an unknown mechanic.

You state that if Ansom can escape, then he isn't the target. We know that he is the target, as Parson states as much to Stanley. Do you not see the logical fallacy in your words? What happens if Ansom does escape? Did Parson lie to Stanley? Or is it more likely that Ansom is one of several targets, and that if Ansom escapes Parson will merely move onto the next target on his list (the siege units)?

[VariaVespasa]

Parson would not be the perfect Warlord if he did not take any risks. Furthermore, Parson would not be the perfect Warlord if he did not have contingency plans. Despite the fact that I believe that Ansom should not be the target, and that it is a tactical mistake to go after him rather than the siege units, I'll play the Devil's Advocate here. What do you suppose that the current plan is actually a fork? You know, threaten two pieces with the same piece, and force the opponent to choose one or the other? Parson might want Ansom, and Tool might demand it, but since the terrain and situation might not be perfect, Parson can only do so much and hope that Ansom doesn't discover an escape. If Ansom does escape, then Parson's units are still in position to wreck the siege.


A good strategist doesn't rely on the opponent, but you give the impression that Parson has some great master plan here instead of several viable plans that he can choose from depending on Ansom's actions.


And if there are no primary targets, only targets of opportunity? Again, I would hit the siege. Then again, Parson stated in a Klog that he felt magic would be the answer winning the battle for Gobwin Knob, so capturing an artifact might rate more importance to him than wrecking the siege. Personally, I'd be content to let Ansom keep the artifact since he isn't attuned to it. A big part of this argument is the fact that you state something isn't possible when you have no knowledge that it couldn't happen aside from your assumptions. You state that it would be a waste of time if Ansom could escape, despite the fact that he drew archers away from the column which would make hitting the siege easier. I also see a lot of back-pedaling, a larger number of "if" clauses where before you seemed very dead certain of what would and would not happen (which, I might add, sparked this entire line of discussion).


Jillian is bringing Gwiffons with her, and they can serve as mounts. Unless they all die in battle, there is no reason that the other Warlords can't mount the unmounted Gwiffons. There wouldn't be a whole lot of choice in what escape route to take, either; it would be a bee-line for the column.


She was released closer to Gobwin Knob. Unless the column isn't actually moving towards Gobwin Knob, she is either closer to one end or the other of the column, which puts her nowhere on the other side of the platter.


I have this habit, when I type fast, of replacing words. If this were an academic paper, I would reread, spot the error, and change it. Because this is a forum for a webcomic, I hope you'll forgive me when I don't give each post the polish that my writing normally receives.


Here is the crux of the argument. You seem unwilling to acknowledge that Parson might not be able to account for every factor, and you hold steadfast to the idea that he has one plan. This is the problem with your line of thinking:

--Parson needed seven hexes of Heavy Forest. He could not create his own Heavy Forest, so he had to choose the best grouping that the terrain could offer him.
--Because of where he is forced to place the platter, he cannot choose which enemy units can and cannot reach the seven hexes. He can look at which of Ansom's units are capable, and decide from there whether or not it is worth it to attempt the subterfuge.
--After determining the risk, and the chance of success, Parson could have either decided that it was an acceptable risk for the possible gain, or that it was not. He decided that it was.
--Attempting the subterfuge does not hinder the original plan. If Ansom escapes, Parson still hits the siege which now has fewer archers (the forest-capable ones) guarding it. If Ansom does not, Parson has taken out the head Warlord of the coalition and could probably still hit some of the siege. No matter what happens, Parson scores a major victory.

A great strategist does not rely on his opponent. A great strategist has multiple viable plans, all with important targets and goals. Thus, he can implement a successful strategy regardless of what the opponent does.

As I continued to type this reply, I realized there was a simple explanation that would have sufficed. You state that Jillian cannot save Ansom. You have no proof to back that up, at all. Nothing that is the least bit conclusive. I have not stated that Jillian absolutely can save Ansom, only that it is a possibility, and the only possibility that I see barring an unknown mechanic.

You state that if Ansom can escape, then he isn't the target. We know that he is the target, as Parson states as much to Stanley. Do you not see the logical fallacy in your words? What happens if Ansom does escape? Did Parson lie to Stanley? Or is it more likely that Ansom is one of several targets, and that if Ansom escapes Parson will merely move onto the next target on his list (the siege units)?

Actually the perfect warlord does NOT take risks, except when it doesnt matter, or he has no choice. In this case it *does* matter- Parson does not have the time or the units to mess around taking risks, and he *does* have a choice- going after the siege, which has guaranteed results and effects. Being a wargame with (for him) perfect or near perfect intel, with a mostly understood combat resolution system Parson knows when something is a risk, combat-wise. He may not know where the enemy will chose to move and attack, but he CAN see where they are physically able to attack and calculate the odds at each point if they do attack there, and he knows which points are important to him and thus need to be protected from any viable attack. Yes, I *am* assuming that Parson has read up on the combat resolution rules, even though he has never been explicitely shown doing so. I think thats a pretty safe and basic assumption. If you disagree, be prepared to explain why a perfect warlord neglected such a basic item.

Might it be a fork? Well no, it isnt. As a matter of definition a fork directly and *obviously* threatens 2 or more pieces, all of which can individually be saved, but which, due to position and/or rules, cannot all be saved. The defender must chose which piece lives and which dies. Ansom was not threatened in this way at the start of his turn, therefore it is not a fork. He *did* lure Ansom in to his possible demise, but thats a lure, a trap, not a fork, and since its not a game-winner while destroying the siege is half of the game winning combo Parson needs (he also needs to win the tunnel fighting, which remains an unknown element so far), the siege must be his primary target.

Getting a shot at Ansom relied on Ansom moving as Parson hoped. I said that since Parson could not rely on how Ansom would move and he doesnt have time to take risks then his plan must primarily be something else (the siege). You rebut my saying that Parson couldnt rely on Ansom by saying "A good strategist doesn't rely on the opponent"?? You're actually trying to rebut me by saying THE EXACT SAME THING I SAID??? Ooookay...

"And if there are no primary targets, only targets of opportunity?" There ARE primary targets, the siege. Thats why the dwagons attacked where they attacked and ended up in the general area they ended up. Theyre vital to the upcoming siege and must be destroyed. Only targets of opportunity would mean attacking anything that could be (safely) attacked, regardless of the unit type. He is not attacking whatever he can, he is specifically after the siege. The only target of opportunity here is Ansom. Thats why he put out the platter in the first place rather than just stacking everything over the lake where it would be safe- he invited Ansom to make the mistake of attacking it and making himself vulnerable. But since that relies on the enemy it cant be his primary plan. It is merely his secondary side plan, albeit an important one. The only risk involved is that Ansom will not walk into the trap and provide Parson with a secondary target. My position is that Parson, being the perfect warlord, would NOT make a trap, that even if sprung in PRECISELY the way he hoped it would be, and at the cost of 3 valuable dwagons to boot, would STILL allow the prey a chance of escape. If Ansom had attacked through a stronger hex to get at the center then maybe, but since he attacked precisely where Parson hoped and intended he would, no, it is NOT reasonable to believe that Ansom can still escape without use of an ability Parson doesnt yet know of.

The platter drew archers away from the siege. Big deal. By their own admission, if the dwagons healed then they could wipe the siege, therefore it must be assumed that the number of archers in range of the siege was not sufficient to stop the dwagons from destroying the siege, therefore that was not an essential element of the plan. It *may* make the defenses at the siege thin enough that Parson has enough dwagons to wipe the siege AND Ansom this coming turn, but he must have had enough strength to wipe the siege regardless. Do we know where the woodsy elves started their turn, by the way?

Jillian- I know the gwiffons can serve as mounts, she's riding one after all. I'm just saying that there may be some wierd rules about it for "rescues" like that is all. Or, of course, due to the heroic and/or romantic style of the situation, the rescue, if it comes, may involve Ansom being swept up onto the gwiffon of the rescuer, as per lots of movies, even though its not strictly necessary since there are spare gwiffons. Personally I doubt it, since Ansom already has his flying carpet-bike, and it would require Jillian to provide a convincing reason to do it her way (ie, choose her proposed escape route), which would require the introduction of new elements, but I thought it would be an interesting use of the subtle control they have of her to capture Ansom on the cheap, so I mentioned it even though I dont consider it likely. I dont think beelining for the column is possible. First, that would be an easy way to escape the trap that I dont think fits with the idea of a successfully sprung trap, and second, "only the 5 fastest gwiffons have the move to get to the center. That VERY strongly suggests that they would be nearly out of moves themselves, and I very much doubt that they will have the moves left to get to the column, quite apart from the fact that even if they did get there, there shouldnt really be anything stronger there, even with the 5 gwiffons added in, to defend Ansom and Jillian than the huge woodsy/gump stack theyre already in. They'd just escape from a strong stack to a weaker stack still in easy striking range of the dwagons. But something like "I know a spot 3 hexes away that can hide us" might draw Ansom to a pretargeted spot if the authors want to go that way.

The fog behind the platter doesnt mean Jillian cant come from that way, it merely means she'd be exploring as she went. GK is in the mountains so the road will wind around a lot, so GK could be basically any vaguely forward direction on the map within up to 90 degrees from the roads current direction which mean Jillian would have to cross fogged hexes to get to the platter. I agree she's more likely to come through explored terrain, I'm just saying its not certain.

The crux of the arguement- Parson might not be able to account for everything? Earlier you said he was the perfect warlord. Now he isnt? Which is it? He can see the board. He CAN account for everything. And we the readers are taking it on faith that he's at least very good, so basic mistakes and ommisions should not occur. Its not like he's exactly being rushed to make his moves. He has plenty of time to think it through and examine the board for possible counter moves.

He needs 7 hexes of forest, but theres a lot of heavy forest around there, he doesnt specificaly need those 7. He could easily be 2-3 hexes to one side or the other, or maybe 1-2 hexes further back. Thats plenty to at least somewhat force the issue of which enemy units can and cannot attack the platter, in what strength and where.

"Attempting the subterfuge does not hinder the original plan (of whacking the siege)." So he HAD an original plan? A PRIMARY plan? You dont say? Oh wait, you DID say. That he didnt have a primary plan of whacking the siege, and that whacking Ansom was the primary, with the siege being a worthwhile secondary if that did work out. Interesting...

I think the problem here is that I say the siege is, and always was, the primary target. You say that either Ansom is the primary target and the siege is just a fallback target if that doesnt work out, or that Parson doesnt actually have a primary target and is just rampaging. But we both agree that the siege is more important right now, we both agree that it should be his main target, and that it started off as his main target. So why are you now saying that Ansom is, especially when that relied on enemy actions? Yes Parson is more interested in that segment of the action because its outcome was less certain and relied on Parsons skill whereas the siege is basically a foregone conclusion, but that doesnt make it the main event.

I include ifs a lot so you can see where the hinges in my arguements are. Attack the hinges if you can. You seem to rebut a lot of what I say by saying the exact same thing I said, which I find odd. Or, of course, trollish.

To address your highlighted sentences-
I assume Jillian cannot save Ansom because if it was that easy then Parson wouldnt pay three dwagons just to watch his target be whisked away if Ansom was the target he was interested in. I am assuming that Parson is good enough to not fail to see what Jillian and her gwiffons can do. Therefore Parson, since he had other options during the anti-siege campaign that would not cost him 3 dwagons, would not elect the option that did if his goal with the platter could be so easily foiled. I am taking Parsons fundamental ability on faith, yes, and basing my analysis on his presumed competence in the basics. I already mentioned that the gwiffons likely dont have enough move to get in and get back to the column this turn and why as a less faith-based arguement.

I state Ansom is not the target of the PRIMARY attack, since too much relied on enemy reaction and Parson does not have that luxury at the moment. He does appear to be the target of the secondary lure. But I think Parson would not pay 3 dwagons just to see Ansom predictably whisked to safety, and would not do so by mistake. Attempting to induce and lead the enemy response, as Parson has done, is one thing. Relying on the enemy to then make an actual mistake before Parson can reap the rewards of that leading is another thing entirely. As you yourself have said, it is foolish to base a plan on the enemy making a mistake. I dont think Parson is that foolish. Therefore, as a matter of faith in Parson, either Ansom cannot be rescued now that he's fully taken the bait (the 3 dwagon hex, not the center hex), or Parson is really mainly after something else and doesnt care if Ansom escapes. I dont know what else Parson may be after (maybe the woodsy troops, as has been speculated), but nothing else makes sense if Ansom can easily escape and Parson knows it. Whether or not Ansom can predictably escape remains to be revealed, hence my ifs. I merely say that either Ansom is toast, or he escapes by a currently unknown mechanic, or it turns out that Ansom wasnt the real target of the trap. As alternate targets I offer the woodsy troops whose loss may enable more turns of dragon-rampaging, or the fliers, who *may* currently be flying piecemeal towards the platter, putting them at risk of dwagon attack and defeat in detail. We dont *know* that theyre heading for the platter, or that theyre piecemeal if they are, but they might be a worthwhile target if they were. We dont know enough of the mechanics of Erfworld or the defenses of GK to properly judge the value of the remaining siege vs the fliers in the GK defense, so we cant say which. And, of course, there may be other, as yet unrevealed, worthwhile targets.

I'm hoping that most of the relevant elements for this foray are already revealed to the readers however. To many hidden revelations smacks of deus ex machina and would hurt the story. The only real mystery I'm hoping to be revealed is how Ansom had planned to survive the remaining B dwagons if his plan to massacre the center hex had succeeded.

[SirEdward]

So the question: what can Ansom sacrifice now and what can he gain.

The second question is: Why is Ansom shown alone in the 2nd to last panel in 61? When moving, Ansom is normally shown next to Vinnie and amid his troops or with his flying carpet making the “run-nuh-nuh-nuh” sound. Is he the sacrifice?

Well, here's my answer.

1). Parson knows the location, number, moves, hits, combat, defense and specials of the gumps and elves displayed on the map BEFORE placing his B dwagons in their current location during his own turn.

2). Vinnie has only 22 move, Ansom's move is unknown, and the movements of land based creatures, especially those made of wood, tend to be abysmal in comparison.

3). The green dots in forest at the start of Ansom's turn, that also happen to be the closest units to the dwagons, take 6-7 move to reach the center hex, 5 of which are in heavy forest (could lower move). Also, the green and brown dots on Ansom's map are likely referring to elves and gumps respectively.

4). Parson also knows, quite painfully in fact, about the location, number, moves, hits, combat, defense and specials of Jillian, the gwiffons, and the archons. Considering how much they burned him last time, I doubt he will forget them.

5). Also, Parson wouldn't be a good wargammer, let alone perfect, if he didn't consider the size and strengths of those forces that could reach and fight in a given hex.

So therefore, If there was a location on a hex map, one could quite possibly, find a place where Ansom, Jillian, the elves, and the gumps can all just baaarrrrely reach the center of.

So, with all due respect, there is no feasible "punch through".

At best, the elves can only help with a possible "punch-through" at half strength, if the elves that only moved 6 hexes weren't the ones that became dragon litter.

Also, the day a wooden forest gump has the same move as a lithe, long legged elf is the day I eat my hat. I would bet the gumps only had 6 move.

Also, Ansom had no need to be paranoid enough to have veiled troops in his initial charge. To his knowledge, he's fighting Plaid Stanley the Incompetent Twit! I mean, seriously, when was the last time you really played your "A game" in strategy just to spank some crackpot noob and his feeble army?

Now, Jillian's force may have enough move to reach the center hex, but does she have enough to get out of it? Even if she did, how much further? Sure, she might be able handle a blue dwagon with a top gwiffon, but can she, three self-interested archons, and five gwiffons take out five strong dwagons? I mean, let's consider. She croaks one with her gwiffon, the archons croak one together (even though a dwagon is a far different enemy than a well-dressed male human with a phallic symbol as a weapon), and the four other gwiffons croak the third. On the dwagons' round, fourth and fifth then may take out an archon or two, several gwiffons, and/or Jillian. Now Charlie would be very displeased to lose one of his archons in such a bone-headed offensive, and I'm sure the archon wouldn't be happy either. I don't think they would kamikaze for Ansom's sake, regardless of the fee. The gwiffons are perhaps the only things with a possibility of move to get Ansom and Vinnie out, as their own move is exhausted. So losing them would make the rescue pointless. And of all things, Ansom would never sacrifice Jillian to Stanley's forces, even if he wants to croak her himself at times.

Finally, let's assume that Ansom can "escape... somehow..." (cf "Thumbwars" by Steve Oedekerk) and even move into the column. The remaining B dwagons should easily have sufficient power to overwhelm any given hex even with the help of the remaining rescue force, as the A dwagons themselves could have croaked 5 or 6 whole stacks before losing.

If Lord Hamster wants Ansom croaked or captured next turn, Ansom will be. Ansom's only hope of not being Wanda's next guest or dragon litter is to not be the target Hamster is looking for.

[edited for grammatical clarity]

[SirEdward]

I'm hoping that most of the relevant elements for this foray are already revealed to the readers however. To many hidden revelations smacks of deus ex machina and would hurt the story. The only real mystery I'm hoping to be revealed is how Ansom had planned to survive the remaining B dwagons if his plan to massacre the center hex had succeeded.

It is to my understanding that by killing the undead warlords, Ansom hoped that the dwagons would then remain idle until commanded or Stanley croaked. Too bad Ansom doesn't know about the troika-/triple-/tri-/whatever-mancers, and that they allow for remote command.

[DavidByron]

Eyemancer-trio. :)

I agree that Ansom is booped with zero, nada, no, none, rien, zip possibility of escape except in the case of revealing an ability that Parson didn't know about -- ie the Arkenpliers ability to kill croaked warlords.

Why? Because Parson just said so. Simple as that. And Ansom has to be the target because what idiot would brag to Stanley about how easily they could kill Ansom and then not do it? besides there just isn't anythinglese worth targeting. The siege was already hit so it's boring to hit it again (in story terms). parson will probably be able to take out Ansom and the remaining seige, or try to at least.

I suspect the combat system would have allowed Ansom to wipe out the wounded A dwagons in the center hex for no damage to himself which is why he felt he was going to be just fine against the B dwagons. this is because of a couple of hypothetical features of the combat system I am guessing at: attacker hits first and the fact that you can't attack out of a stack with more than 8 units at once.

I really doubt that leaderless stacks are simply unable to move. Stanely especially uses leaderless stacks a lot 'cos he has so few leaders. The 5 dwagons sent to get Jillian, the 5 spidews attacked by the Webinar group and the Twoll and 3 inf that Jillian killed are examples.

[SirEdward]

I really doubt that leaderless stacks are simply unable to move. Stanely especially uses leaderless stacks a lot 'cos he has so few leaders. The 5 dwagons sent to get Jillian, the 5 spidews attacked by the Webinar group and the Twoll and 3 inf that Jillian killed are examples.

I am implying that leaderless units will continue following their last order. If it is to march home, they keep doing so. If it is to hold a certain hex as forward garrison, they will. If it is to acquire resources, they will. So it is not impossible for Ansom to think those 5 spidews or the twoll and uncroaked were simply chance encounters. As for the dwagons, remember that Ansom doesn't know the details of her capture, so he would not suspect thinkamantic "remote commanding" was involved.

In Ansom's case, I know only of the leaderless woodsey elf stacks being commanded to head into the hex. They received a command and followed it. Other than that, there is no other leaderless action going on in his army.

[SMDVogrin]

Well, here's my answer.
2). Vinnie has only 22 move,

Vinnie's BATS have only 22 move. We have no data on the move score of Vinnie himself.

[ChowGuy]

I am implying that leaderless units will continue following their last order.

Purr-cisely. (See, I'm not dogmatic, I'm catmatic: smallwink:) Unless the B-Dwagons had been give specifi orders in advance to do so, Ansom should be safe in assuming they would not seek out and attack him. Given that such orders would by nature need to be "conditional" it's difficult to see how that certain posters who harp on the term "simple" could insist on such complexity was part of the game.

As to the point that Stanley uses "lots of leaderless stacks" because he has too few warlords, Ansom does the same, unless your believe there were (unseen) warlords in each of the Siege stacks. I see no inherent conflict however. THose stacks as you point out were moving under previous orders.

Nor do even I see a de-facto requirement for a warlord to be physically within a particular stack to issue orders. If we assume either multiple stacks can fit within a single hex, or hexes can contain stacks much larger then 8 units, but which then split into smaller independent stacks (conditions we have seen in action) then it stands to reason that leaders can issue orders to stacks to "go on you way" whole they remain behind.

But we can do even better at minimizing the require warlord per stack ratio. We can invoke a mechanic whereby Leader units can give bonuses/orders to all units within some "visual" range in hexes or whatever. Perhaps that range may equate or depend upon their "Leadership" score, so that Jillian's "I'm a nine" actually means she can command/improve units out to eight hexes away (doubtful, but bear with me) rather then that she gives a +8 bonus to (some) stat of units actually stacked with her. There would still however be some limit, whether stat based or not, beyond which other means of issuing commands (like hats) would be needed.

If I were designing a "Leaders" based game with large armies, it's an idea I might consider inventing. Except for the fact that Sid Meier already invented it, in some of his "historic recreations" games. All I'd need to do is import the concept into turn based strategy as a "orders on the overland map cannot be issued to stacks 'out-of-contact' with a Leader unit."

[Demented]

Pigeons.

There was this one game, Powermonger (of which I only have the manual), where you had subordinate warlords. Your only way to communicate with them and give them orders was by sending pigeons, which took time to reach wherever. You also had a limited number of pigeons for any particular scenario, so you had to use your subordinate warlords wisely.

Admittedly, it was more real-time than turn-based, so the pigeons probably worked out better that way. But it'd be easier turn-based just to treat it as instantaneous.

Idea!
Stanley has an infinite source of pigeons thanks to that to the arkenhammer! Of course, they might not be trained for sending messages....

[SirEdward]

But we can do even better at minimizing the require warlord per stack ratio. We can invoke a mechanic whereby Leader units can give bonuses/orders to all units within some "visual" range in hexes or whatever. Perhaps that range may equate or depend upon their "Leadership" score, so that Jillian's "I'm a nine" actually means she can command/improve units out to eight hexes away (doubtful, but bear with me) rather then that she gives a +8 bonus to (some) stat of units actually stacked with her. There would still however be some limit, whether stat based or not, beyond which other means of issuing commands (like hats) would be needed.

That was something I was also considering, also perhaps with line of sight signaling used in open view. It would explain how one commander, Lord Manpower, could oversee Stanley's army at Warchalking. This would explain also why the dwagons could be left in a radius away from the uncroaked warlords without revealing to Ansom manipulation via thinkamancy. After all, only within hex leadership would have required the uncroaked warlords to move six hexes just to drop the B dwagons off in the ring.

[Rumours]

I think the point of Parson's plan was to ensure the tactical situation did not change. Parson is in an awesome place tactically speaking, he just destroyed 40% of the siege. The plan worked if Ansom wasted his turn, which has not happened yet.

My prediction; Ansom and his troops return to the main army. All the tasty targets are concentrated into the smallest area possible and defended with everything available. This will mean the situation will not change because Parson now has twice the number of dragons attacking. The plan worked, Parson's victory.

PS de-lurking

[sihnfahl]

I think the point of Parson's plan was to ensure the tactical situation did not change. Parson is in an awesome place tactically speaking, he just destroyed 40% of the siege. The plan worked if Ansom wasted his turn, which has not happened yet.

Originally, the thought was that Parson's move was to misdirect the few units that could reach the injured dwagons that were in hiding in a direction that ate up so much move that, even if the injured dwagons were found afterwards, that the dwagons would be untouchable.

Then we found out the dwagons were over water and wouldn't have been able to have been attacked by ground units in any case, and limited to VERY few air units (8) so we look at the splash effects.

Fewer archers over the siege - meaning Parson can hit more of Ansom's units since his dwagons are taking less damage overall (remember, Ansom took 7 whole stacks of Woodsy Elves; 2 were croaked, 5 are wounded to an unknown degree).
Second, it diverted some very nice targets (Hi Ansom!) into a situation where they would be unable to protect themselves well next turn if they did nothing.
Third, Ansom has a choice now, since Jillian is in reserve. Try to find and croak the injured dwagons... or save his own hide? Either way, he's lost his siege and a good number of tunnel-capable units if Parson decides the attack on Ansom's stack itself was 'too expensive' in terms of dwagons he'd lose. And, thanks to the mathamancy device he has now, he can prove it to Stanley.

My prediction; Ansom and his troops return to the main army. All the tasty targets are concentrated into the smallest area possible and defended with everything available. This will mean the situation will not change because Parson now has twice the number of dragons attacking. The plan worked, Parson's victory.

Presumably, they no longer have the move to go around and get back to the stack. In order to use the shorted move possible, now, they have to face a minimum of 5 strong dwagons. Since Stanley's units heal before Ansom's, that would potentially make their situation even worse. If Ansom plays it conservatively (and there's little in his personality now that says he won't play it conservatively), he'll pull Jillian, 5 gwyphons and the 3 archons over him to make any attack on him expensive.

[Nitan]

"If the plan does not plan for problems outside the plan, then it isn't a plan at all."

As fun as it is to hate the royal pretty boy Ansom and laugh as the common man shows the nobility who's boss, it's been quite clear that Anson is not an incompetent leader and certainly no fool. I'm not writing him out yet.

Perhaps he did charge into the center square believing it to be full of veiled dragons. If he did though, he has certainly made his plan so it could adjust to such a situation.

[Demented]

I don't see what else Ansom could've done besides charge into the center, if his units' move really is as low as it seems.

As far as his approaches to plans, Ansom's probably been running cold for a while, since Stanley isn't much competition. He may have been prepared to deal with what might happen if he loses too many units in the assault on the dragon stack, but I don't think he was prepared to be outsmarted in quite this way...

But he's still got Jillian (and Webinar, even!), and he may have a hat to give orders back to the column as well... If he doesn't, Jillian may have enough move to make a pit stop at the column and give additional orders as long as it's on the way. Ansom may just have to jumpstart his mental war engine.

I just wonder what Charlie's costs are for an extended one-way thinkagram....

[sihnfahl]

I don't see what else Ansom could've done besides charge into the center, if his units' move really is as low as it seems.

There was an alternate route going through a weaker 4-dwagon hex back to his lines that would have used just as much move. Check the map.

He may have been prepared to deal with what might happen if he loses too many units in the assault on the dragon stack, but I don't think he was prepared to be outsmarted in quite this way...

Approaching GK, though, he knew he had a severe numerical superiority. He could stand to lose a few regular stacks to protect the siege. He knew he -could not- lose all the siege. And he does have a backup plan... Jillian's still available to help him out.

I just wonder what Charlie's costs are for an extended one-way thinkagram....

Why bother? Ansom can still command units. What, a Chief Warlord deliberately set himself up so he can't command units?