Bleach versus Naruto

[gooddragon1]

Its not about how long you've been fighting, its about what you've been fighting against.

I agree. And what do the bleach characters end up fighting at the END? People bestowed with letters that allow them to do things like imagine reality (V) or shift the balance of reality (B) or become stronger from taking damage (M). Jutsu allows impressive manipulation of the environment. Occasionally warping reality (verrry occasionally). The sternritter at the higher levels were pushing the limits of writing expression in power. They had to be jobbed to be beaten (like how V was). This is bad writing imo. However, it shows the extent of the power difference. One writer was willing to go further into the bad writing category power levels than the other.

What has the Seireitei been fighting? What are the vast majority of their foes? Hollows. What are Hollows? monsters that are no threat to any one that knows what they're doing. They don't team up, they don't have tactics or plans, they are just your common monster fodder of the spirit world, that maybe has some unique abilities if they are strong enough, but even then they just fight individually, there is no organization to them. no challenge. Its no surprise that Byakuya could be in training for so long if there is nothing to challenge you like weak, stupid foes like Hollows.

Remember that comparability mention?

What if the Naruto characters had no way to interact with the hollows. Well then even a low level hollow would be a threat to them. And again, remember the first sentence I quoted in this post. What have they been fighting at the END? Not at the beginning. Not how long they've been fighting. Not even quality of fights up to that point. The end is the consideration point.

I remember a part where Ishida says "They're moving so fast I can't visually follow their movements." in a fight a long time ago of Ichigo vs Ulquiorra. We could see them though through the camera. So how fast were they moving?

My opinion here: Given the caliber of what was fought as a comparison... at the very least we'd see Ichigo do roughly what Aizen did against the captains where he appeared to blur move 3 or so times and all the captains were suddenly cut down. That would be generous. At most, Ichigo would be wiping his blade with a cloth as Naruto falls into 1 inch sized chunks... along with the rest of the Naruto cast.

[Lord Raziere]

I agree. And what do the bleach characters end up fighting at the END? People bestowed with letters that allow them to do things like imagine reality (V) or shift the balance of reality (B) or become stronger from taking damage (M). Jutsu allows impressive manipulation of the environment. Occasionally warping reality (verrry occasionally). The sternritter at the higher levels were pushing the limits of writing expression in power. They had to be jobbed to be beaten (like how V was). This is bad writing imo. However, it shows the extent of the power difference. One writer was willing to go further into the bad writing category power levels than the other.

Ah but if you admit its bad writing, why do you want to defend it and want it to win? Sure you can say its for accuracy's sake, but if its something bad wins over something better written, who really loses in this situation? I don't. I'm arguing for better writing, so even if your right, your arguing for bad writing. I have the moral high ground, because I don't acknowledge as something like that being valid.

[gooddragon1]

Ah but if you admit its bad writing, why do you want to defend it and want it to win? Sure you can say its for accuracy's sake, but if its something bad wins over something better written, who really loses in this situation? I don't. I'm arguing for better writing, so even if your right, your arguing for bad writing. I have the moral high ground, because I don't acknowledge as something like that being valid.

I don't want it to win. I'm stating how it is. I hated how superman beat dbz. Twice. But in their second video they explained the reason. I debate that the upper limit of what a dbz character could reach wouldn't be enough, but for superman they were assuming infinity.

As for the series:
-I stopped watching naruto after the unbelievably blatant fanservice involving Hot Ar U Hotaru. Read the wiki for updates after that.
-I never got into bleach all that much, I just read the wiki for updates (and watched youtube clips of some of the battles).

[Traab]

How is this different from saying that if Ichigo can't punch something he stabs it, if he can't stab it he uses getsuga tensho, if THAT fails he has bankai, hollow mode, final getsuga tensho, fullbring, and quincy powers, each with different abilities and advantages?

The vast majority of Naruto's options that you're listing are just different forms he takes before he punches things.

I cant tell if you people arguing this point are intentionally ignoring it or not, but as I pointed out, naruto has a LOT of different skills. The only skills ichigo has are "pointy end goes into the bad guy" and "energy beam from my sword" His power ups do nothing but make him better at those two options. He doesnt suddenly have brand new abilities he could never do, it just enhances everything he already has even more. He gets stronger, faster, tougher. Meanwhile naruto going into sage mode unlocks new abilities he couldnt otherwise do, such as giving him ranged attacks he didnt have before, that taijutsu style that lets him hit you even with a miss, as well as greatly enhanced sensory skills. And of course his six path sage mode and kyuubi modes give him even more abilities on top of that. Including the ability to use pretty much all the elements, create a kyuubi sized cloak of energy he can manipulate in a number of ways, fire bijudamas of various sizes and strengths, and thats just scratching the surface. And all of that is of course in addition to the whole stronger faster tougher thing he gets as well.

[gooddragon1]

The only skills ichigo has are "pointy end goes into the bad guy" and "energy beam from my sword" His power ups do nothing but make him better at those two options. He doesnt suddenly have brand new abilities he could never do, it just enhances everything he already has even more.

Not that he needs them, but then what do you call this?

Spoiler

Show

Or him getting fullbring? Or the ability to sense where his friends were when fighting butterflaizen?

[Traab]

Not that he needs them, but then what do you call this?

Spoiler

Show

Or him getting fullbring? Or the ability to sense where his friends were when fighting butterflaizen?

I call that a black and white page of a manga with no real point of reference for me to work with. Im serious, I have no idea whats going on there, fill me in please. As for his fullbring, wasnt that basically his shinigami powers again only accessed a different way/level of power? I admit to knowing little about the fullbring arc though, so if he can do something else in a fight beyond stab bad guy/firing his sword beam attack then by all means let me know. As for knowing where his friends were, wasnt that an ability he developed the basics of WAY back at the start when chasing down chad who was trying to protect some sort of spirit possessed bird? That it is stronger/more effective I will grant you, but its less a new ability and more an ability he almost never uses because it rarely comes up.

[gooddragon1]

I call that a black and white page of a manga with no real point of reference for me to work with. Im serious, I have no idea whats going on there, fill me in please. As for his fullbring, wasnt that basically his shinigami powers again only accessed a different way/level of power? I admit to knowing little about the fullbring arc though, so if he can do something else in a fight beyond stab bad guy/firing his sword beam attack then by all means let me know. As for knowing where his friends were, wasnt that an ability he developed the basics of WAY back at the start when chasing down chad who was trying to protect some sort of spirit possessed bird? That it is stronger/more effective I will grant you, but its less a new ability and more an ability he almost never uses because it rarely comes up.

That's blut vene (a defensive ability)
Fullbring lets people change one object into another.
The point of the sensory ability is that it exists and he can find people and things. That's not just hitting things man.

Up until kaguya, naruto didn't use harem jutsu that much either and yet people are bringing it up here because it could be tactically advantageous.

Ichigo's power level is such that imo he doesn't need to do much more than w+m1 against Naruto, but I am showing that this is not all he can do.

[F.H. Zebedee]

People listing all the different elements Naruto can control are kinda missing the point- Yeah, those are things he can do, but why bother? Naruto's actual movelist in combat is Rasengan, Rasenshuriken, his variety of buff modes, hand to hand combat, Shadow Clones, shapeshifting, and the occasion Bijuu Ball or the like. When's the last time Naruto actually did anything with the ink powers or sand powers or what have you? I think there was one panel he threw shurikens of all of them, but that's not his typical fusillade- He's more likely to just go rasenshuriken spam (which admittedly is often enough to get the job done)

Ichigo is admittedly less versatile, but I think it's substantially less of a gulf when you narrow it down to practical moves. Considering how similar cero/bijuu balls functionally play out, and IIRC that Getsuga Tensho is stated to basically be a wonky Cero, I think we can say likely their ranged attacks obliterate eachother very thoroughly.

I'd give Ichigo a slight edge in close quarters, since he's got a sword that can take the kind of abuse being slung around (which isn't to say anything against Naruto's hand-to-hand, just that when you've got two folks at roughly even physical feats, give it to the guy with the reach advantage and a weapon that won't get as hurt by hitting/parrying as bare hands will) Naruto can spam shadow clones, but I doubt that'd be a deciding factor. After all, we see Ichigo in bankai waaaaay back in the first big arc parry thousands of blades coming at him from all directions. Shadowclones are helpful, but let's not assume Ichigo can only handle attacks from one opponent dueling him.

All that said, I think Naruto's real advantage is mind games. Ichigo hasn't actually- Well, THOUGHT his way through a fight in forever. He manages to hedge and hold out, til he digs deep enough to find a way to win, but it's seldom intellectually. It's the Rocky method- Take a beating til you get your second wind, then smoke the guy.

Naruto isn't *bright* but he is wiley. So I see a close fight, likely looking slightly in Ichigo's favor the whole time, until Naruto comes up with some goofy-arse trick that puts Ichigo on tilt, and then the next Hokage puts the Substitute Soulreaper to bed.

[Traab]

That's blut vene (a defensive ability)
Fullbring lets people change one object into another.
The point of the sensory ability is that it exists and he can find people and things. That's not just hitting things man.

Up until kaguya, naruto didn't use harem jutsu that much either and yet people are bringing it up here because it could be tactically advantageous.

Ichigo's power level is such that imo he doesn't need to do much more than r+m1 against Naruto, but I am showing that this is not all he can do.

Ok, so he gets a healing power. Thats something new I admit. Heh, of course in the tradition of this style of anime he tended to get stabbed in the heart a lot even without that ability and still fight but thats just picking nits. As for fullbring, yeah, I get that from the generic description, but what did he use it for? Didnt he basically recreate his sword and abilities as a shinigami with it? As for sensing things yeah, I mean, its never used as a combat ability or anything but ok, he does have something other than pointy end goes into the bad man. As for the sexy jutsu, I think it was mainly brought up as a joke because of the amusing mental image of how ichigo would react to suddenly seeing a nude orihime appear in front of him with nothing but wisps of smoke covering up the naughty bits.

*EDIT* Ok, this is unrelated mostly but, im rewatching a few bleach fights and I have to know, what the HECK is this obsession with names? Its like 3/4 of the espada fights are word duels where each side tries to act more arrogant than the other about not telling them who they are or demanding to know their opponents name. Crap like, "There is no point in telling you my name, as I will kill you soon and the dead dont need to know who i am." "Oh, your arrogance in demanding my name is so amusing I will give you the honor of telling me your name before you die." etc etc etc. Is this a japanese thing? Like, introducing yourself as a sign of respect before a fight to the death?

[gooddragon1]

Ok, so he gets a healing power. Thats something new I admit. Heh, of course in the tradition of this style of anime he tended to get stabbed in the heart a lot even without that ability and still fight but thats just picking nits. As for fullbring, yeah, I get that from the generic description, but what did he use it for? Didnt he basically recreate his sword and abilities as a shinigami with it? As for sensing things yeah, I mean, its never used as a combat ability or anything but ok, he does have something other than pointy end goes into the bad man. As for the sexy jutsu, I think it was mainly brought up as a joke because of the amusing mental image of how ichigo would react to suddenly seeing a nude orihime appear in front of him with nothing but wisps of smoke covering up the naughty bits.

*EDIT* Ok, this is unrelated mostly but, im rewatching a few bleach fights and I have to know, what the HECK is this obsession with names? Its like 3/4 of the espada fights are word duels where each side tries to act more arrogant than the other about not telling them who they are or demanding to know their opponents name. Crap like, "There is no point in telling you my name, as I will kill you soon and the dead dont need to know who i am." "Oh, your arrogance in demanding my name is so amusing I will give you the honor of telling me your name before you die." etc etc etc. Is this a japanese thing? Like, introducing yourself as a sign of respect before a fight to the death?

Not really healing, more like damage reduction.
Ichigo worked with aizen to fool Yhwach and he's been tactically clever enough to obscure ulquiorra's vision with a flying cube of rock and then move in for a clean cut. He doesn't often have to be intelligent, but cases like this one do come up.

It is heretical for a villain to not monologue according to the Ordo Manganimatum of the Inquisition. Even Horus knew well enough not to stoop to that level of heresy.

[Traab]

Not really healing, more like damage reduction.
Ichigo worked with aizen to fool Yhwach and he's been tactically clever enough to obscure ulquiorra's vision with a flying cube of rock and then move in for a clean cut. He doesn't often have to be intelligent, but cases like this one do come up.

It is heretical for a villain to not monologue according to the Ordo Manganimatum of the Inquisition. Even Horus knew well enough not to stoop to that level of heresy.

Monologuing is fine, but this is both sides, captains and espada going back and forth with refusing to give their names, claiming they dont care when they hear their opponents names, and eventually during the battle, telling each other what their name is. I get the feeling its like a respect thing. When you face an opponent you acknowledge as skilled, you tell him your name and he tells you his. If you think he is trash you refuse to tell him your name because he "doesnt deserve to know" or some such thing. So by refusing to give their name they are basically saying, "You dont count for anything to me, I will crush you like a bug, and I dont bother to learn the name of bugs. " Its a combination of trash talk and disdain or something. It just seems to be a strange thing to focus on, it crops up in so many fights.

[Anteros]

I cant tell if you people arguing this point are intentionally ignoring it or not, but as I pointed out, naruto has a LOT of different skills. The only skills ichigo has are "pointy end goes into the bad guy" and "energy beam from my sword" His power ups do nothing but make him better at those two options. He doesnt suddenly have brand new abilities he could never do, it just enhances everything he already has even more. He gets stronger, faster, tougher. Meanwhile naruto going into sage mode unlocks new abilities he couldnt otherwise do, such as giving him ranged attacks he didnt have before, that taijutsu style that lets him hit you even with a miss, as well as greatly enhanced sensory skills. And of course his six path sage mode and kyuubi modes give him even more abilities on top of that. Including the ability to use pretty much all the elements, create a kyuubi sized cloak of energy he can manipulate in a number of ways, fire bijudamas of various sizes and strengths, and thats just scratching the surface. And all of that is of course in addition to the whole stronger faster tougher thing he gets as well.

Because you're grossly exaggerating Naruto's versatility. He has different forms, but he uses them just like Ichigo uses his. As a power up to hit the bad guy harder. He is not a versatile fighter. Period. Even the various skills he does use just basically boil down to different sized blast attacks. It's irrelevant. Sasuke or Orochimaru or someone else could probably pull some random technique out to beat Ichigo with, but Naruto wouldn't even think of it.

As far as actual combat versatility we see from him goes he can summon a giant frog, make clones, transform himself into a woman, flash step, throw different types of energy attacks, and heal. He barely ever does anything outside of this.

[-D-]

That said, didn't Ichigo lose most of his powers? I can imagine Ichigo with Shinigami+Quincy+Hollow(+Fullbring) would be more than a match for Naruto. But what powers does he have at end of manga? I remember Ywach taking some powers.

[Brother Oni]

can you explain it mate?

A bit late, but I thought I'd answer the question. Japanese is very fond of punning based on homonyms:

Ichigo written 苺, is strawberry the fruit.
Ichigo written 一護, is the name of the Bleach protagonist. He isn't named after the fruit, but the character 一 meaning 'one, first' etc, which is a common pattern in Japanese naming.

Naruto written ナルト is the name of the eponymous protagonist from the show.
Narutomaki (ナルト/なると) is a type of food (yep, same characters for Naruto).
Both Naruto are named for the whirlpools that form in the Naruto straits because of the swirl pattern motif.

[Mato]

People listing all the different elements Naruto can control are kinda missing the point

So incredible true.

Naruto just invents variant Rasengas and use Shadow Clones for misdirection. Even with shapable death orbs the only thing he thought about using them for was hand held sticks. And he even watched someone else use them as shields and projectiles. A typical Naruto fan is like, a fire Reasenga, that is so amazing! Best thing ever, it proves Naruto is like ten time more powerful than he was because a large fire destructo disk is even cooler than a massive three dimensional disintegration orb wind-based Rasenga.

But Ichigo getting a blue colored Grand Ray Getsuga Tensho? I don't understand it, color change is boring.
Ichigo actually has things like telekinesis because he still has the remnant his fullbringer powers. Blut's near invincibility and it's unused attack mode, bows and arrows, a couple dozen blasting & barrier spells, and a very ridiculously overpowered Vollstandig mode and it's accompanying Sklaverei hax power steal for being a Quincy. Over two hundred Kido spells, at least one of which can stop time and a few can duplicate illusions, for being a Shinigami. And then he still has a mask (or face paint), resurrection, possible double resurrection, regeneration, and the ability to inhale souls for being a Hallow. But none of this is really that helpful.

The world of Bleach has far more complex and ominous techniques than Naruto. Like Pain has six abilities with multiple issues making a massive deal about it. But it's completely impossible to count how many abilities the current Captain Commander Shunsui has because none of them make any sense. There are multiple characters that win through preplanning hundreds of contingencies on top of people that can simply invent whatever they can imagine and they still lose.

A fundamental core element of Bleach is that no matter how complex the technique is, it always comes back to the scale of power behind it. Two hit death needle? Made worthless from spiritual pressure. An intact soul? Punched into annihilation by spiritual pressure. Giant Chibaku Tensei Spell? Karate chopped to death. Can literately invent anything you like? I'm going to win by slicing you, and it worked. Giant hand with regeneration, organic evolution, adaptive replication and self-replication abilities that'd put Doomsday, the Superman Killer, to shame? Died in one hit to the universe's sharpest sword.

The worlds of Naruto and Bleach are nothing alike. For an example, in Naruto Obito's intangibility has weaknesses, he can't remain intangible while attacking, he can't remain intangible for more than five minutes, his intangibility is rendered worthless if anyone he teleports is still alive, his tangibility does not work while he's inside his pocket dimension, etc. These weaknesses are then exploited and yeahee for the heroes. In Bleach, Lille's intangibility had no time limit, he could attack while maintaining it, there was no alternative dimension to attack from. And the invincible technique was totally irrelevant because Shunsui, that guy who could beat the top ranked Espada with only a shikai, could use his bankai on him just fine.

In the world of Bleach, magical techniques that give tactical advantages or strike certain types of weaknesses only matter of the combatants are close to the same levels of power. And Naruto does not exist on the same scale as Ichigo. Maybe if you gave Naruto the ten tails he could try to compete, but then in order to be fair you have to also give Ichigo something so what does Ichigo get above his normal bonuses? Maybe Yhwach's entire power set since Ichigo's son just devoured him for lunch in the last issue?

[lord_khaine]

Im going to give this one to Naruto as well. Mainly because he has the better track record of defeated people who were actually stronger than himself though cunning, instead of relying on his second wind. And also because we dont have any solid evidence for Ichigo existing on a different tier than Naruto.

I do agree on that the upper tiers in Bleach are higher up than in Naruto, but those extreme monsters either killed off each other, or were defeated by aid of another such monster and a magical silver arrow.

[Mato]

That post made me realize I have been over criticizing of Tite.

Tite likes to repeat things and ran meaningless cliffhangers into the ground. So when something of course goes the Mary Sue asspull lame repetition McGuffin way a lot of us got a little in patient with him. But, Ichigo's main deal is he loses a fight, spends a few minutes getting better, than wins. He only had a second wind twice in the series and, here is that repetition again, both times he ended it by fighting against his cheap victory hollowfication like it was supposed to make things better (it just made things nonsensical with comments like slice my arm off).

Kishimoto on the other hand tried to make Naruto one of the weakest characters in his series because Naruto has a story about group efforts are better selfishly doing everything on your own. And so almost every single fight Naruto gets a quick boost from the nine tails. Haku, every fight with Orochimaru, Nenji, Gaara, Jiraiya, Itachi, Deidara, both fights with Pain, Nine-Tails (his mother helped), Tobi, Ten-Tails, Obito, Madara, Kaguya, and Sasuke are all done by trying to overpower his opponents, often directly through a second wind nine-tails assist, and commonly under someone else's direction. The second round with Pain and the fight with Tobi are even counter productive as they remind you that Naruto really is pretty simple minded even if you think he has it all together after defeating Kakuzu and Pain.

We applaud Kishimoto because he is a better writer that clearly put more effort into his series than Tite and we overlooked Kishi's over reliance and repetition of turning losing into a Nine-Tails save.

[Frozen_Feet]

For people who want to compare the series in a non-stupid way:

Bleach has a late-series minor antagonist called Candice Catnip. Her Schrift is "T" for "Thunderbolt" and one of her signature techniques, Galvano Javelin, has an explicit energy value: five gigajoules.

Guess what also has five gigajoules of energy?

*drumroll*

A real-life thunderbolt. I know, I know, it is rather unsurprising for the character who's moniker is Thunderbolt to shoot thunderbolts. But it's an useful comparison point, because Naruto also has a technique which utilizes actual thunderbolts: Sasuke's Kirin.

Which Itachi then goes to block with a half-formed Susanoo.

By the end of the series, Sasuke can utilize Susanoo at will (and even figures out additional power-ups for it). Sasuke also invents and utilizes even more, and more powerful, lightning-based abilities such as Indra's Arrow.

How do we get from Sasuke to the topic of Naruto versus Ichigo, then? Well, by the end of Naruto series, Naruto is explicitly equal with Sasuke to the point where neither can overcome the other's full defenses. Meaning we can reasonably state that Naruto's final form of the Kyubi cloak has exactly as much defensive powers as Susanoo.

And from here, we can reasonably state that both Naruto and Sasuke could've stomped Candice Catnip just as bad as Ichigo. But we also know Ichigo would be more or less invulnerable to Kirin, as he was able to block Galvano Javelin without trouble.

Candice isn't the only lightning user in Bleach, though. Another character, Chojiro Sasakibe, also has a Bankai which conjures a thunderstorm. And we know from his backstory that at his prime, Sasakibe could hurt young Yamamoto Genryusai Shigekuni. We also know that later, Sasakibe's Bankai, while being used by a Quincy, was unable to replicate this feat. So from this we can gather that Kirin from Naruto could hurt unreleased Yamamoto, but wouldn't be guaranteed to do so.

Useful comparisons don't end there. What does Yamamoto's Bankai do at its most basic level? It makes him burn as hot as the sun. It so happens Naruto also has a technique which burns as hot as the sun, Amaterasu. And we know Susanoo can block Amaterasu, not the least because Sasuke augments Susanoo by wreathing it in the black flames multiple times during the series. Naruto also is proven to be able to withstand close proximity to such heat, as Sasuke uses Amaterasu to free them from Kaguya's ice prison.

From this, we can infer that Susanoo and Naruto's Kyubi Cloak are at least on the level of Sternritter Blut Vene, as a Lloyd Royd (Or Royd Loyd, I forget which) was able to survive close proximity to Yamamoto.

The point is that if you can accept few intuitive premises, such as thunderbolts being thunderbolts and things stated to be as hot as the sun actually being as hot as the sun, across both series, then it is easy to see Naruto and Bleach settings are not at different scales at all. They're fairly close, and it can be established that top-tier threats from one series would be top-tier threats in the other.

[lord_khaine]

Thats an amazingly scientific comparison of things there, i take my hat off for the work you put into this.

[-D-]

Thats an amazingly scientific comparison of things there, i take my hat off for the work you put into this.

I don't think it really holds up. Sure at some points you can compare them one on one. But most of the time the things they are fighting shrug off damage or absorb it. But seriously, how do you compare Reality Warper like Ywhach? You could hit him with reality destroying attack and he can still walk away unscathed. And kill your entire family. Retroactively.

Like you blast Gerald with Moon Destroying laser. Congrats, you have Moon sized Gerald.

[Traab]

Itachis susanoo had the yata mirror which lets it nullify just about any attack, sasuke doesnt have that ability on his. Just a bit of a nitpick there. There are a few areas where you cant say, "Well so and so could do this, therefore this guy could do the same." Im not even saying his susanoo cant tank a kirin just pointing out a bad comparison. Also, Kirin is more than just a lightning bolt. It basically draws all the energy out of a stormcloud and focuses it in a single blast, so technically its ALL the lightning all at one target.

[lord_khaine]

I don't think it really holds up. Sure at some points you can compare them one on one. But most of the time the things they are fighting shrug off damage or absorb it. But seriously, how do you compare Reality Warper like Ywhach? You could hit him with reality destroying attack and he can still walk away unscathed. And kill your entire family. Retroactively.

Simple, i dont compare reality warpers. This has nothing to do with Ywhach, we are comparing Naruto and Ichigo.

[-D-]

Simple, i dont compare reality warpers. This has nothing to do with Ywhach, we are comparing Naruto and Ichigo.

Well, then how do you compare peak powers of Ichigo/Naruto and not some random semi level, they fought.

Anyway, being hot as the sun, doesn't mean hot as the sun . It just means really hot. If it was hot as a sun as it claims - a human sized object that was hot as the sun, would be equivalent of detonating a small thermonuclear device (inside fission bomb is a ball of fire hot as the sun). Which would bode ill for anyone.

It's magical super-hot fire. You may claim it's same temperature, but at that point - just compare the antagonist.

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't think it really holds up. Sure at some points you can compare them one on one. But most of the time the things they are fighting shrug off damage or absorb it.

So? Finding one-to-one parallels is the best way to compare two things. When things can survive attacks, it doesn't cause problems. On the contrary, it sets benchmarks for what a character can survive.

There are a lot more comparison points, but I have better things to do than go over all of them.

But seriously, how do you compare Reality Warper like Ywhach?

Simple, you look at other reality warping attacks, which exist both in Naruto and elsewhere in Bleach. And if nothing else seems to compare, well, then nothing else compares. (I didn't say I think Yhwach is stronger than Kaguya for gits and shigles.)

It is that simple. Really. You can read. You can put pieces of texts next to each other and see if they're describing the same thing.

You could hit him with reality destroying attack and he can still walk away unscathed. And kill your entire family. Retroactively.

No limits fallacy. Yhwach never demonstrates ability to survive such attacks. On the contrary, he can be injured by a basic sword slash from Ichigo, he just needs to be cheated into thinking it's something else than what he saw. Yhwach's ability is also proactive, not retroactive. This is made obvious because Tsukishima, who has genuine retroactive powers, can change the past to something Yhwach didn't dictate.

Which would leave a lot of room for some Naruto characters to strike against him, but I do think you'd fundamentally need something like Ishida's silver arrow to truly win.

Like you blast Gerald with Moon Destroying laser. Congrats, you have Moon sized Gerald.

Another no-limits fallacy. Is that possible? Perhaps, but never demonstrated. Remember, Gerard could be incapacitates by Nimaya, requiring Yhwach's help to be revived. This suggest he can be taken down if he's caught off-guard.

This said, I do think only good matches for Gerard in Naruto would be Kaguya, Sage Obito and Sage Madara.

Itachis susanoo had the yata mirror which lets it nullify just about any attack, sasuke doesnt have that ability on his. Just a bit of a nitpick there. There are a few areas where you cant say, "Well so and so could do this, therefore this guy could do the same." Im not even saying his susanoo cant tank a kirin just
pointing out a bad comparison.

Itachi is not shown using the mirror to block Kirin, so that is immaterial to my argument.

Also, Kirin is more than just a lightning bolt. It basically draws all the energy out of a stormcloud and focuses it in a single blast, so technically its ALL the lightning all at one target.

This is true, but at best it means Kirin is one or two orders of magnitude more powerful than Galvano Javelin, and that's still roughly comparable to Sasakibe's Bankai.

Though again, the salient point is that if you can accept a thunderbolt is a thunderbolt is a thunderbolt, you can put lightning-based attacks next to each other and compare them across series.

[Mato]

Thats an amazingly scientific comparison of things there, i take my hat off for the work you put into this.

I agree with -D-, Frozen_Feet's "analysis" is a series of linked assumptions for a very incorrect conclusion.

If you accept that a lightning bolt is only one gigavolt and the Kirin is equal to that then one second of Yamamoto standing around not doing anything in his bankai, it releases around twenty eight times more energy than Susake's greatest lightning-based offensive technique if you use a rough heat conversion for a quick estimation. And remember Tite was correct, Yama's bankai is so hot it it's not actually fire and that's why no one could initially see it until Yama released even more energy to color it in.

But Amaterasu is fire. Even if you accept Amaterasu burns as hot as the surface of the sun as claimed, it burns at 5,505 degrees Celsius which is a pretty low number isn't it? And you don't even need the numbers to know the attacks are not even close to being the same as each other. Amaterasu can successfully set trees on fire and it can't burn through Gaara's Sand, but Yama makes several hundred meters of concrete and ground immediately vanish from instantaneous nuclear fusion. Of course Amaterasu is weaker than Yamamoto's fire.

When he came to his conclusion that Susake's Susanoo can block Yamamoto all he did was demonstrate that if you you have no idea how powerful anything is, or the differences between the actual techniques used as examples, you may think they are close.

[Flickerdart]

Gaara's sand isn't just merely sand - it's chakra-infused, and also contains the spirit of his mother or something. Comparing that to unattended, mundane concrete is meaningless.

[Mato]

Gaara's sand isn't just merely sand - it's chakra-infused, and also contains the spirit of his mother or something. Comparing that to unattended, mundane concrete is meaningless.

It's still sand. And Gaara still makes a point of mineral mixing to enhance it's hardness and gold's weight can be used to counter it so the general properties of the sand still matter more than the chakra in them.

And I also used trees in the same example, the dirt and even living tissue hit by it don't vaporize immediate when hit with the technique. So are you trying to say that all the plants around the building where Itachi and Susake were also infused with the chakra of several dead mothers or something?

Thesse technques just are not on the same scale. Even if you nerf Yamamoto all the way down to Susake's level by claiming Susanno and Blut at the same thing, Yama still vaporized a blut-user in one strike of his North technique. Yama would show up to the fight with Madara, kill him in one hit, and walk away complaining he had to get his hands dirty. And that Blunt user as we come to find out was one of the weakest Sternritter Ywach had.

[-D-]

No limits fallacy. Yhwach never demonstrates ability to survive such attacks. On the contrary, he can be injured by a basic sword slash from Ichigo, he just needs to be cheated into thinking it's something else than what he saw. Yhwach's ability is also proactive, not retroactive. This is made obvious because Tsukishima, who has genuine retroactive powers, can change the past to something Yhwach didn't dictate.

Wat. That's wrong reading. Yhwach was "killed" numerous times (almost all times by Ichigo, once by the Ink Guy/Reality Warper). He just rewrites the future so he doesn't die. So, in essence he survives. Not to mention he sees ALL futures and imports from it stuff he needs - like with those bombs that perfect landed on Ichigo. That part is retroactive. It's only going from PRESENT <- FUTURE (unlike Tsuki whose powers work PAST <- PRESENT).

That's his power. Tshukishima changes past. Yhwach changes future, that's why he can cancel Yhwach's power. And when with all that power the only thing Yhwach feared was Ichigo. And Ichigo did manage to cut him down several times. It didn't stick. But others never managed to make a dent.

Another no-limits fallacy. Is that possible? Perhaps, but never demonstrated. Remember, Gerard could be incapacitates by Nimaya

Again. Not enough familiarity with material. I'm talking Gerard in as he fought multiple Shinigami. Not as he fought Nimaya. When he was cut down, Yhwach used Auswahlen, which didn't just ressurect him but redistributed powers of all other Quincy into his select few, including Gerard. Gerard before Auswahlen << Gerard after Auswahlen.

If Kenpaki, a guy that chased and cut meteor into shreds, after his powerup couldn't defeat Gerard, it's within reason that Firing a Moon laser into Gerard wouldn't have any effect. Especially, since his ability is turn damage dealt into health.

[Frozen_Feet]

@Mato: great way of twisting my words into something I didn't say.

I didn't say Susanoo could block Yamamoto. I said "survive close proximity to" and compared him to Lloyd Royd (Or Royd Lloyd - I cannot keep those two straight).

What happens to said character when he actually touches Yamamoto? He is incinerated, just like everything else.

Your criticism fails principle of generosity - you made my argument seem weaker than it is by claiming it was something it wasn't, when instead you could've followed the trail of inference I laid out for you to make much the same point. I know you know enough of both series to have done that, why it is so glaring you didn't.

[Frozen_Feet]

Wat. That's wrong reading. Yhwach was "killed" numerous times (almost all times by Ichigo, once by the Ink Guy/Reality Warper). He just rewrites the future so he doesn't die. So, in essence he survives. Not to mention he sees ALL futures and imports from it stuff he needs - like with those bombs that perfect landed on Ichigo. That part is retroactive. It's only going from PRESENT <- FUTURE (unlike Tsuki whose powers work PAST <- PRESENT).

That's his power. Tshukishima changes past. Yhwach changes future, that's why he can cancel Yhwach's power. And when with all that power the only thing Yhwach feared was Ichigo. And Ichigo did manage to cut him down several times. It didn't stick. But others never managed to make a dent.

I'm not sure you got what I was getting at. When I said Yhwach's power is pro- rather than retroactive, I meant it only changes things to the future from his present. It's not shown changing the past at any point, in sharp contrast to Tsukishima's, which does - to the point of influencing Yhwach's own actions.

So in essence, you're saying the same thing I am. What you're missing is that Tsukishima's actions prove Yhwach's ability is not as absolute as it seems.

What's also worth noting is that Izanagi, a reality-altering ability from Naruto, is used by villains much the same way and for the same effects as Yhwach's Allmighty. Izanagi has a sharper timelimit, but it is an example to answer your question "how do you compare reality warpers?".

Again. Not enough familiarity with material. I'm talking Gerard in as he fought multiple Shinigami. Not as he fought Nimaya. When he was cut down, Yhwach used Auswahlen, which didn't just ressurect him but redistributed powers of all other Quincy into his select few, including Gerard. Gerard before Auswahlen << Gerard after Auswahlen.

It's not really known if Gerard after his revival is any stronger than before it. Some pieces of dialogue between Lille and Nimaya, as well as Askin and Urahara, suggests he's not, and he just didn't manage to activate his power in time when fighting Nimaya.

If Kenpaki, a guy that chased and cut meteor into shreds, after his powerup couldn't defeat Gerard, it's within reason that Firing a Moon laser into Gerard wouldn't have any effect. Especially, since his ability is turn damage dealt into health.

How is this different from me saying "vaguely possible?" The important part is that this is never substantiated. It's bad form to presume an attack of a scale far bigger than anything used against Gerard in his own series would have no effect. It's useless hyperbole.

A much saner argument would be to show, in a thread like this, that Narutö doesn't have attacks of much greater scale than were used by Kenpachi, Byakuya et all against Gerard in Bleach. For example, Gaara's sand? He uses it in much the same way, and in similar quantities, as Byakuya uses Senbon Sakura Kageyoshi. So Gaara's sand would likely be ineffective against Gerard.

These kinds of comparisons are easy and doable, so why are you wasting everyone's time talking about a moon-splitting laser that's nowhere to be found in either series?